I am so glad my three favorite players on this team made you Stud list.
OT Andrew Thomas, S Julian Love, S Xavier McKinney
I never thought I would get to this point in my football life, to be excited to watch Sunday football only to focus on a left tackle, living and dying on his every set not giving a shit about anyone else on the offensive side.
Are the class of the NFC. They’ve been super impressive managing a ton of injuries to their All Pro LT, Pro Bowl CB, starting TE, and starting receivers.
I wonder if you keep an airline puke bag at the ready when you watch these game films?
This was one of the most uninspired Giants games I have ever witnessed in 55+ years of watching. Aside from the 1st drive, the offense was trash. It is games like this that Jones shows he likely does not belong as a starting QB. He simply does not snap the offense together.
I turned it off after the 1st INT in the 3rd qtr.
FWIW, Garrett deserved to get fired, but Graham did nothing in this game to inspire confidence either. Frankly, Brady out coached him and found every weakness in Graham's concepts. And yes the lack of pass rush is a major cause. But after three good games, the defense was back to performing like the 1st 6.
I've broken Sy'56's third closing thought into separate paragraphs to let this morass sink in:
"They don’t know how to draft,"
"they don’t know how to manage the cap,"
"they don’t know how to play 2-minute offense and defense,"
"they don’t know what to do in the red zone,"
"they don’t know how to manage timeouts."
"You can preach fundamentals all you want, and you can say one-liners about being a teaching-based coaching staff. Sounds very Belichick-y."
"That helps during the spring and summer months where results are subjective. However, the mismanagement always rears its ugly head during the fall and this is the problem that starts from the top."
I don't want to put words into Sy'56's mouth, but a lot of the above is directed straight at our Head Coach. Sy'56 is a professional and he chooses his words carefully. I am not a professional and, as a 60-year Giants fan, I am not nearly as judicious as Sy'56. But I stand by this early November post right after the Chiefs game:
"Why does Joe Judge deserve a third year as head coach when Pat Shurmur was kicked to the curb after two? Because Joe Judge is dealing with more injuries? Or, he's sounds more like a Commander-in-Chief? Or, he's more efficient with his time outs? Or, he's just better looking than Pat Shurmur?"
I wonder if you keep an airline puke bag at the ready when you watch these game films?
This was one of the most uninspired Giants games I have ever witnessed in 55+ years of watching. Aside from the 1st drive, the offense was trash. It is games like this that Jones shows he likely does not belong as a starting QB. He simply does not snap the offense together.
I turned it off after the 1st INT in the 3rd qtr.
FWIW, Garrett deserved to get fired, but Graham did nothing in this game to inspire confidence either. Frankly, Brady out coached him and found every weakness in Graham's concepts. And yes the lack of pass rush is a major cause. But after three good games, the defense was back to performing like the 1st 6.
The lack of in game adjustments is absolutely mind boggling. As Sy said, Graham was probably relying on a better rush from the front, which is why the backend was so damn far off. But at some point, shouldn’t Graham realize that the pass rush ISN’T getting there and make the appropriate adjustments in the back end? It seems each week Graham has a game plan and he’s going to stick with it regardless of what is actually happening on the field. Every. Single. Week. And the lack of any kind of disguise in the pre snap is as curious and infuriating as the lack of adjustments.
After reading this I hope everyone gets fired. Noticed the same thing with Galloday.
I think Tampa has drafted really well and they had a much better nucleus of players where it counts (OL/front 7) than what the Giants have. So if they had to give up a lot of picks to acquire a QB I am not sure the upside is nearly as much. Then you have a outstanding coaching staff versus ours.
Have a great Thanksgiving Sy and thanks for your great work on these.
I also agree, with the condition that we improve the guards on the OL, that it would be interesting to see what Wilson (or the like) would do to the Giants. We certainly have skill players. We would need a real OC of course too
I just don't see the cap numbers working, given where the Giants are for next year at this year. The way I see it, for next year, the QB is either Jones, a draft pick, or a "bridge." And given the cap... I would bet on Jones for at least one more season, with a possible 2nd or 3rd rounder in the upcoming draft pushing him.
so predicated on talent upfront. Graham cannot do anything without horses putting pressure on the opponent. Think of all the Defensive coordinators made famous even in this franchise because of an elite pash rush. Our D Coordinators for all three Superbowls were Spags, Fewel and Fox. All made because we had elite to very good fronts. When the didnt have those fronts they were traveling mediocrity. So lets not be to quick to lay in on Graham.
so predicated on talent upfront. Graham cannot do anything without horses putting pressure on the opponent. Think of all the Defensive coordinators made famous even in this franchise because of an elite pash rush. Our D Coordinators for all three Superbowls were Spags, Fewel and Fox. All made because we had elite to very good fronts. When the didnt have those fronts they were traveling mediocrity. So lets not be to quick to lay in on Graham.
Hey, he knows what they have. He needed to scheme something to get pressure. He got none. The 3rd and 12 when Brady had "half a minute" to find Gronk(?) way down field was on him while rushing 3 was the epitome of silliness.
Hey sometimes DCs and OCs whiff.
so predicated on talent upfront. Graham cannot do anything without horses putting pressure on the opponent. Think of all the Defensive coordinators made famous even in this franchise because of an elite pash rush. Our D Coordinators for all three Superbowls were Spags, Fewel and Fox. All made because we had elite to very good fronts. When the didnt have those fronts they were traveling mediocrity. So lets not be to quick to lay in on Graham.
Graham and Judge both have been asked in the past about not having elite pass rushers and they have both stated that it’s their job to scheme in a pass rush. The pass rush will come from all over if schemed properly. They know they don’t have the pass rushers, they said it didn’t matter.
is acquiring a veteran QB.
We need the draft picks to build the OL , and other positions, so the QB CAN be a difference maker.
Plus AR is 37, RW is 30+, and DW is a….. PR problem.
We really need a GM who can build a team, then plug his HC and staff, and QB, if he thinks JJ and DJ aren’t those.
The question is: does ownership have the ,courage, to go outside their safety zone and pick one outside the ‘family’ to come in and make possible sweeping changes to the FO, including moving out family?
Judge Projects as a Plain Talking Lab Coat Coach. All the focus is on coaching Players Their Position and Technique.. developing the players as useable resources.
It's apparent that there is not a similar intelligence level in the games....I don't think it's particularly unique---Top Assistants fail as Head Coaches as much as Failed First Round QB's. Interesting that those two "positions" are so vexing to scout...and they are so tied together for any range of success. It's almost impossible to Scout for NFL QB Drafts....and for New Head Coaches.
so predicated on talent upfront. Graham cannot do anything without horses putting pressure on the opponent. Think of all the Defensive coordinators made famous even in this franchise because of an elite pash rush. Our D Coordinators for all three Superbowls were Spags, Fewel and Fox. All made because we had elite to very good fronts. When the didnt have those fronts they were traveling mediocrity. So lets not be to quick to lay in on Graham.
Graham and Judge both have been asked in the past about not having elite pass rushers and they have both stated that it’s their job to scheme in a pass rush. The pass rush will come from all over if schemed properly. They know they don’t have the pass rushers, they said it didn’t matter.
lol. What the hell are they supposed to say? "Umm, yeah uh, our talent really sucks so we're kinda fucked on pass rush (and OL) until we get better players."
After reading this I hope everyone gets fired. Noticed the same thing with Galloday.
I think Tampa has drafted really well and they had a much better nucleus of players where it counts (OL/front 7) than what the Giants have. So if they had to give up a lot of picks to acquire a QB I am not sure the upside is nearly as much. Then you have a outstanding coaching staff versus ours.
Have a great Thanksgiving Sy and thanks for your great work on these.
Tampa is stuffed full of big, mean football players. Reminds me of the mid '80's Giants. (Yeah, I know Simms ain't Brady, but he wasn't bad.)
The press conferences try to convince those who listen that things are under control and there is a plan in place. It is clear to me that this team does not have a plan beyond basic football. They don’t know how to draft, they don’t know how to manage the cap, they don’t know how to play 2-minute offense and defense, they don’t know what to do in the red zone, they don’t know how to manage timeouts. You can preach fundamentals all you want, and you can say one-liners about being a teaching-based coaching staff. Sounds very Belichick-y. That helps during the spring and summer months where results are subjective. However, the mismanagement always rears its ugly head during the fall and this is the problem that starts from the top.
A few of us have been uttering these same things ad nauseum.
so predicated on talent upfront. Graham cannot do anything without horses putting pressure on the opponent. Think of all the Defensive coordinators made famous even in this franchise because of an elite pash rush. Our D Coordinators for all three Superbowls were Spags, Fewel and Fox. All made because we had elite to very good fronts. When the didnt have those fronts they were traveling mediocrity. So lets not be to quick to lay in on Graham.
Graham and Judge both have been asked in the past about not having elite pass rushers and they have both stated that it’s their job to scheme in a pass rush. The pass rush will come from all over if schemed properly. They know they don’t have the pass rushers, they said it didn’t matter.
lol. What the hell are they supposed to say? "Umm, yeah uh, our talent really sucks so we're kinda fucked on pass rush (and OL) until we get better players."
I don’t really give a shit what johnny5 thinks they should say. They said they could scheme to get pressure on the QB. So go do it. That’s literally all I care about. You said you could do it, so go do it. If rushing 3 or 4 all freaking game long while leaving your DBs 15 yards off the ball isn’t getting it done, be creative enough to make the adjustments that WILL get it done. They knew going into last offseason what they had on the roster. They didn’t exactly go out of their way to improve on it. They should have been pounding the table to add pass rushers if they felt they needed them. There were opportunities. They passed.
The press conferences try to convince those who listen that things are under control and there is a plan in place. It is clear to me that this team does not have a plan beyond basic football. They don’t know how to draft, they don’t know how to manage the cap, they don’t know how to play 2-minute offense and defense, they don’t know what to do in the red zone, they don’t know how to manage timeouts. You can preach fundamentals all you want, and you can say one-liners about being a teaching-based coaching staff. Sounds very Belichick-y. That helps during the spring and summer months where results are subjective. However, the mismanagement always rears its ugly head during the fall and this is the problem that starts from the top.
A few of us have been uttering these same things ad nauseum.
We're not allowed to say it. Sy can have these opinions but when a fan says it "we don't know anything".
Russell Wilson, Deshaun Watson, and Aaron Rodgers all being available
A mess, and there are no signs anything is going to get better anytime soon. This team can’t draft for shit, I’ll give the next OC a chance to squeeze whatever they can out of the Barkley and Jones experiment but my patience is wearing very thin. Those types of draft picks are why we have been the worst team in the league over the past 5 years, bust after bust.
IMO it all starts with Ownership, instilling family members in the business decisions and running this team like some Ole Boys club where they only hire people that they are familiar with/old friends of the family (Gettleman and Garrett). Not one competent team in the NFL would have hired these guys, I don’t have any confidence John Mara even recognizes the true issue at hand because he has surrounded himself with all family and “Yes” men.
Watching this game was brutal, you have no player accountability and not one person who is a difference maker (or at least is not being utilized to succeed in that way). This team lacks identity and always looks like a bunch of practice squad guys going against a teams starters in a Scrimmage. Sure there are a million problems, but I feel the root cause starts at the top, addressing all the symptoms is not going to fix anything until the FO and owner get it figured out.
Question for Sy'56 (and perhaps a stupid question)
to see such high picks be such enigmas/contributors to losing.
Jones, Barkley, Hernandez. Not good.
Three of the reasons why we're looking at a near total re-build, which will require a new G.M. to figure out who, amongst the current players, is worth keeping and melding with a slew of new players acquired via the Draft, as well as undrafted free agents.
Saquon Barkley should have topped the list of duds
2 weeks ago Devontae Booker ran rings around the Raider defense. It finally looked like Giants had an offensive scheme they could build on. They had a tough RB that could run over defenders, and the OL for all their pass blocking incompetence, seemed to be able to run block. In typical Giant fashion, instead of going with what worked, this week they went with the shiny not so new object.
For all the blame thats been heaped on Jones if Booker had started this game and had 75% of the success he had against the Raiders, we are looking at a very different game. Jones would have had manageable 2nd and 3rd downs, they control the ball and they keep the GOAT off the field. That was the only chance they had to be competitive in this game. Indeed when Booker finally got in, he got some good runs in.
This team's inability to evaluate their own players is infuriating. If they were able to use Saquon Barkley the way the Giants used Dave Megget back in the day he could be a dangerous weapon, but this offense isn't set up that way. As it is, Saquon is of no help to this team.
Look up Lamar Jackson's accomplishments in college as a QB
A mess, and there are no signs anything is going to get better anytime soon. This team can’t draft for shit, I’ll give the next OC a chance to squeeze whatever they can out of the Barkley and Jones experiment but my patience is wearing very thin. Those types of draft picks are why we have been the worst team in the league over the past 5 years, bust after bust.
IMO it all starts with Ownership, instilling family members in the business decisions and running this team like some Ole Boys club where they only hire people that they are familiar with/old friends of the family (Gettleman and Garrett). Not one competent team in the NFL would have hired these guys, I don’t have any confidence John Mara even recognizes the true issue at hand because he has surrounded himself with all family and “Yes” men.
Watching this game was brutal, you have no player accountability and not one person who is a difference maker (or at least is not being utilized to succeed in that way). This team lacks identity and always looks like a bunch of practice squad guys going against a teams starters in a Scrimmage. Sure there are a million problems, but I feel the root cause starts at the top, addressing all the symptoms is not going to fix anything until the FO and owner get it figured out.
Why? That will be third coaching staff/coordinators group?
Sorry, the clock runs out quick in NFL. With injuries and cap limit/contract savings an issue, they can't reinvest in Jones and Barkley.
so predicated on talent upfront. Graham cannot do anything without horses putting pressure on the opponent. Think of all the Defensive coordinators made famous even in this franchise because of an elite pash rush. Our D Coordinators for all three Superbowls were Spags, Fewel and Fox. All made because we had elite to very good fronts. When the didnt have those fronts they were traveling mediocrity. So lets not be to quick to lay in on Graham.
Graham and Judge both have been asked in the past about not having elite pass rushers and they have both stated that it’s their job to scheme in a pass rush. The pass rush will come from all over if schemed properly. They know they don’t have the pass rushers, they said it didn’t matter.
However, I still have a negative grade on Barkley, and it is becoming overly tiresome to see the same issues game after game. He is a poor blocker who shows minimal effort; he continues to trip over his own feet (followed by slamming the ball on the ground as if he was surprised); and he stops his momentum way too soon on inside runs into traffic.
I've been saying this from day 1 and was laughed at. Who's laughing now?
but I'm not sure what he's supposed to do. Our edge rushers were 100% incapable of winning a matchup and beating the man in front of them. Williams occasionally got a small push on the inside and that was it.
OK, blitz? We have nobody who's particularly good at blitzing and more importantly, Brady has seen it all and will absolutely torch it.
If anybody should understand this, it's Giants fans. We've had massive success built on devastating pass rushers winning their 1-on-1 battles. Now we have the opposite of that.
If you had a team of 6 foot guys trying to guard Shaq, he'd score every time. There's no scheming for it. That's the situation when we play a team with a good OL and good QB.
so predicated on talent upfront. Graham cannot do anything without horses putting pressure on the opponent. Think of all the Defensive coordinators made famous even in this franchise because of an elite pash rush. Our D Coordinators for all three Superbowls were Spags, Fewel and Fox. All made because we had elite to very good fronts. When the didnt have those fronts they were traveling mediocrity. So lets not be to quick to lay in on Graham.
Was it Payton who said it Monday?
You either blitz and die quickly, or play deep and force them to go down the field and score, hoping for a penalty and/or turnover.
A couple times they got that.
If the offense could have moved the ball some and just pulled their weight a bit, you're in the game past half time.
I think Graham is doing what he can give the state of the NFL passing game and rules, give the talent (lack of) up front.
Flip side, I have no idea what Jason Garrett was trying.
Well done as always. Totally agree on your assessment of Jones. People can point to one clip Orlovsky tweeted about to deflect blame, but Jones does not produce. He misses throws and reads that average NFL QBs have no problem with.
The evidence is all there- he's not any good. Time to move on.
I would love Rodgers or Wilson here. But Mara doesn't have the balls to make it happen.
I was wondering who would be the studs other than our best receiver, Andrew Thomas. I the only one I could think of was Bruce Arians for pulling Brady and other starters about midway through the fourth period.
And your conclusions at the end of what the team does not do well was so spot on. And aren't these all on Joe Judge as the head coach, especially since he says it is all about coaching? As the head coach he is responsible for the entire team. And the offense is putrid. The defense is mediocre at best. And finally, other than Gano, there is nothing special about the special teams.
A mess, and there are no signs anything is going to get better anytime soon. This team can’t draft for shit, I’ll give the next OC a chance to squeeze whatever they can out of the Barkley and Jones experiment but my patience is wearing very thin. Those types of draft picks are why we have been the worst team in the league over the past 5 years, bust after bust.
IMO it all starts with Ownership, instilling family members in the business decisions and running this team like some Ole Boys club where they only hire people that they are familiar with/old friends of the family (Gettleman and Garrett). Not one competent team in the NFL would have hired these guys, I don’t have any confidence John Mara even recognizes the true issue at hand because he has surrounded himself with all family and “Yes” men.
Watching this game was brutal, you have no player accountability and not one person who is a difference maker (or at least is not being utilized to succeed in that way). This team lacks identity and always looks like a bunch of practice squad guys going against a teams starters in a Scrimmage. Sure there are a million problems, but I feel the root cause starts at the top, addressing all the symptoms is not going to fix anything until the FO and owner get it figured out.
Why? That will be third coaching staff/coordinators group?
Sorry, the clock runs out quick in NFL. With injuries and cap limit/contract savings an issue, they can't reinvest in Jones and Barkley.
I was referring to the next OC they go with as in now. Like the remainder of this season. Neither of them deserve to be conversation for re-signing, they are busts until they prove otherwise but like you said e clock is running out.
A mess, and there are no signs anything is going to get better anytime soon. This team can’t draft for shit, I’ll give the next OC a chance to squeeze whatever they can out of the Barkley and Jones experiment but my patience is wearing very thin. Those types of draft picks are why we have been the worst team in the league over the past 5 years, bust after bust.
IMO it all starts with Ownership, instilling family members in the business decisions and running this team like some Ole Boys club where they only hire people that they are familiar with/old friends of the family (Gettleman and Garrett). Not one competent team in the NFL would have hired these guys, I don’t have any confidence John Mara even recognizes the true issue at hand because he has surrounded himself with all family and “Yes” men.
Watching this game was brutal, you have no player accountability and not one person who is a difference maker (or at least is not being utilized to succeed in that way). This team lacks identity and always looks like a bunch of practice squad guys going against a teams starters in a Scrimmage. Sure there are a million problems, but I feel the root cause starts at the top, addressing all the symptoms is not going to fix anything until the FO and owner get it figured out.
Why? That will be third coaching staff/coordinators group?
Sorry, the clock runs out quick in NFL. With injuries and cap limit/contract savings an issue, they can't reinvest in Jones and Barkley.
I was referring to the next OC they go with as in now. Like the remainder of this season. Neither of them deserve to be conversation for re-signing, they are busts until they prove otherwise but like you said e clock is running out.
Oh ok. My problem is they'll set the bar low (hey - we got three first downs in the game!) to justify going one more year where we will get same disappointment and then be stuck with facepalm reality of having to fully reset.
The offensive game plan that we saw against New Orleans (heavy play action, lots of emphasis on protecting the QB, downfield throws), have they not done that as much since? Have they stopped doing it as opponents adjust?
Also, has Joe Judge’s emphasis on being “multiple” actually hurt the team because they have no identity?
A mess, and there are no signs anything is going to get better anytime soon. This team can’t draft for shit, I’ll give the next OC a chance to squeeze whatever they can out of the Barkley and Jones experiment but my patience is wearing very thin. Those types of draft picks are why we have been the worst team in the league over the past 5 years, bust after bust.
IMO it all starts with Ownership, instilling family members in the business decisions and running this team like some Ole Boys club where they only hire people that they are familiar with/old friends of the family (Gettleman and Garrett). Not one competent team in the NFL would have hired these guys, I don’t have any confidence John Mara even recognizes the true issue at hand because he has surrounded himself with all family and “Yes” men.
Watching this game was brutal, you have no player accountability and not one person who is a difference maker (or at least is not being utilized to succeed in that way). This team lacks identity and always looks like a bunch of practice squad guys going against a teams starters in a Scrimmage. Sure there are a million problems, but I feel the root cause starts at the top, addressing all the symptoms is not going to fix anything until the FO and owner get it figured out.
Why? That will be third coaching staff/coordinators group?
Sorry, the clock runs out quick in NFL. With injuries and cap limit/contract savings an issue, they can't reinvest in Jones and Barkley.
I was referring to the next OC they go with as in now. Like the remainder of this season. Neither of them deserve to be conversation for re-signing, they are busts until they prove otherwise but like you said e clock is running out.
Oh ok. My problem is they'll set the bar low (hey - we got three first downs in the game!) to justify going one more year where we will get same disappointment and then be stuck with facepalm reality of having to fully reset.
Exactly, it would be another year wasted. I felt bringing back Garrett after last year was a huge mistake, if they don’t make dramatic improvements I think they should start selling everyone they can minus a handful of players (Thomas, Toney, McKinney)
availability of very good vet QB's. My first thought was that TB had a much better talent base to work with, but maybe it isn't as vast as I suspected. That said, TB's OL was FAR better when Brady arrived than the Giants is. Maybe that changes this off-season, but it's a big ask to overhaul the entire unit (less AT) in one off-season.
Personally, I would stay away from the older QB's, as I just don't think we are a QB away from being a SB contender. Watson would be a premier target without his off field issues, but I can't see an ownership group as risk-averse as the Mara's considering bringing him in.
The interior o-line and RT are a disaster. I think we may need to turn the page on Jones. If we continue with him, this has every similarities to Dave Brown. We can’t fix the unfixable.
availability of very good vet QB's. My first thought was that TB had a much better talent base to work with, but maybe it isn't as vast as I suspected. That said, TB's OL was FAR better when Brady arrived than the Giants is. Maybe that changes this off-season, but it's a big ask to overhaul the entire unit (less AT) in one off-season.
Personally, I would stay away from the older QB's, as I just don't think we are a QB away from being a SB contender. Watson would be a premier target without his off field issues, but I can't see an ownership group as risk-averse as the Mara's considering bringing him in.
Rodgers' age can be a deterrent. I also don't like the way he carries himself.
The offensive game plan that we saw against New Orleans (heavy play action, lots of emphasis on protecting the QB, downfield throws), have they not done that as much since? Have they stopped doing it as opponents adjust?
Also, has Joe Judge’s emphasis on being “multiple” actually hurt the team because they have no identity?
The lack of playaction as Garrett's biggest fault. This OL and Jones benefitted from it so much, yet he did not use it half as much as he should have.
turns 33 next week. I'm not banking on guys maintaining an elite level until 43. Or even into his mid-30s. It's possible, but I'm not taking that risk with the Giants no-talent roster.
If I'm the Browns? Yeah, I'm doing that. Steelers, too. Maybe the Saints.
Giants are too far away from contending to risk it. Also, why would Wilson want to spend the end of his career in this mess?
"He continues to struggle seeing the entire field"
It was impossible to ignore in that game. He had Galladay single covered down the field with a step, and Jones threw it into a mess of bodies resulting in an incomplete pass.
Jones can't play off script. He can't see the field. He's failing.
The elite ones in recent years? It is more common as sport nutrition and recovery become more prevalent with these guys. Wilson is the kind of guy that spends 5-6 hours per day recovering, 10-12 hours sleeping...etc. Almost like an addiction similar to what you saw from Brees and see with Brady.
how difficult it is to find a Top 5 QB and the impact a guy like that has on your ability to win games. This will probably ruffle some feathers but I don't think we've had that guy on a consistent year-to-year basis since Tarkenton. Many teams with these guys don't have strong rosters backing them either, yet they are consistently contending. The bottom fell out on the Texans without Watson and you can make the argument that the Packers and Seahawks have similar (or worse) talent than this roster outside of QB. Supply and demand, these guys are worth so much more than other positions and that is exponentially more true at the high end. I'm against trading draft picks for expensive vet talent - the top of the QB market is the only exception.
Rodgers is a little riskier as he actually is old for the position. Watson is a no for obvious reasons. Wilson would be the sweet spot for me. I think there would be non-football reasons to make the Giants a preferred destination for him too. It's an option that deserves discussion here and with the Giants themselves if this team is indeed on his radar.
so predicated on talent upfront. Graham cannot do anything without horses putting pressure on the opponent. Think of all the Defensive coordinators made famous even in this franchise because of an elite pash rush. Our D Coordinators for all three Superbowls were Spags, Fewel and Fox. All made because we had elite to very good fronts. When the didnt have those fronts they were traveling mediocrity. So lets not be to quick to lay in on Graham.
Was it Payton who said it Monday?
You either blitz and die quickly, or play deep and force them to go down the field and score, hoping for a penalty and/or turnover.
A couple times they got that.
If the offense could have moved the ball some and just pulled their weight a bit, you're in the game past half time.
I think Graham is doing what he can give the state of the NFL passing game and rules, give the talent (lack of) up front.
Flip side, I have no idea what Jason Garrett was trying.
I think Garrett was trying to scheme around very little talent. Especially OL/QB/RB
if the BBI "optimists" ever read Sy's reviews and if so, whether they've also dismissed Sy as a "hater" and not a "true fan" like they are.
Then again, the way the Giants are playing, BBI might not have many optimists left ;>)
Unfortunately Sy's reviews, while painful to read, are pretty spot on.
First, I don't think it is good to judge who are real fans and who are not. I think fans resist analysis by other fans on this board because, well, they (we) are just fans. Sy does this for a living. I also take what former coaches and players say more seriously than what fans say even if it does not fit what I want to hear.
Not to go off on a tangent here, but a few of us were debating the talent of Devin Lloyd the other day. I was hoping you'd see it and chime in. Since you didn't, and you are posting today, what do you think of Lloyd?
The fact that he continues to start actually makes sense when you view Judge as a guy who can't even pick his own coordinator: how could you expect a neutered head coach to bench the GM's second round pick?
Not to go off on a tangent here, but a few of us were debating the talent of Devin Lloyd the other day. I was hoping you'd see it and chime in. Since you didn't, and you are posting today, what do you think of Lloyd?
Lloyd and Dean are LB1/LB1A on my ILB stack right now.
Dean is going to have size issues, so Lloyd could end up being the guy there. Top 20 pick. Great speed and twitch but also anticipates. Gets through creases better than any LB I have seen in a few years.
and his impact on a team. I differ on what his aging/injury curve looks like.
If there's a ~90% chance that we get prime Wilson for 5+ years, then yeah I'm in. I just don't think the #s are high enough to warrant the investment.
Completely fine there. It is guess work, after all. And yes, Wilson's injury history can dampen my long term view of him as well. To be honest, I haven't gone deep there yet, I merely wanted to bring up the thought to generate discussion. As I have said a few times, I am not going in on what NUYG should do at QB until after week 18.
The fact that he continues to start actually makes sense when you view Judge as a guy who can't even pick his own coordinator: how could you expect a neutered head coach to bench the GM's second round pick?
Likewise for Solder. Judge is just a Gettleman and Mara bootlicker. I hope he found it worth it to sacrifice his credibility to be a one time head coach.
What would you do right now about the OL aside from replacing Solder with Peart? Would you bench Hernandez for Bredeson?
Golladay can't separate. Even my untrained eye can see that most of his catches are contested. He does will with those balls to his credit, but it means that whoever is throwing him the ball is usually doing so into pretty tight windows. Right now, especially given their salaries, Ross was a better signing than Golladay.
I want to wait until the end of the season to make a final verdict on Jones. He's under relentless pressure and has no running game. Sometimes I think he's not seeing the whole field because he has no faith in his OL to give him time to do so. But there are a lot of other plays where he has the time and just doesn't, or misses an open receiver. The game isn't slowing down for him like it should be in his third year, even with a poor OL. Those two INTS were definitely on him.
I'm willing to bring him back next year but as of now would not pick up his fifth year option. I'd also consider trading him during the draft if a QB I liked was available, and starting a veteran until the new QB could take over.
Thanks again. Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.
Not to go off on a tangent here, but a few of us were debating the talent of Devin Lloyd the other day. I was hoping you'd see it and chime in. Since you didn't, and you are posting today, what do you think of Lloyd?
Lloyd and Dean are LB1/LB1A on my ILB stack right now.
Dean is going to have size issues, so Lloyd could end up being the guy there. Top 20 pick. Great speed and twitch but also anticipates. Gets through creases better than any LB I have seen in a few years.
Thanks. Indeed, he can really can find the ball and knife through small areas. Was ultra impressive last weekend against Oregon. Ducks had no answers for him.
Personally, I think he's going top ten and is the most complete defensive player I've seen this year. Sneaky good blitzer, btw, too.
He's a guy who runs deep posts and goes up and gets it over 2 DBs. Runs deep in routes and shields DBs, catches fades in the end zone. You didn't have to be a scout to see that in Detroit. The team should have known that going in.
If our QB/OC can't use that skill set, it's going to be a lot of $$$ going down the drain.
if the BBI "optimists" ever read Sy's reviews and if so, whether they've also dismissed Sy as a "hater" and not a "true fan" like they are.
Then again, the way the Giants are playing, BBI might not have many optimists left ;>)
Unfortunately Sy's reviews, while painful to read, are pretty spot on.
The people you're referencing are deluded and removed from reality. Eventually, at some point over the next 10 years, this team will have a good season and they can tell us "I told you so." Reminds me of a certain economist who has been predicting inflation for the last 30 years and is now crowing about being right.
Think about that…..just because we get a new GM next year doesn’t mean he will be any better because the people hiring him don’t know what they are doing.
Think about that…..just because we get a new GM next year doesn’t mean he will be any better because the people hiring him don’t know what they are doing.
We need George Young to come back….
Can't be much worse. Gettleman is 18-40. It's amazing he got to come back this season.
or more even tempered review. That is saying a lot given the way the game turned out.
My biggest hope is that the powers that be realize regardless of how the offense performs with Kitchens at the helm, the Giants problems go much deeper and wider. Really, the only thing this can potentially answer is about where Jones is. Other than that, they still have huge problems on the field, sidelines, and front office that all still need to be addressed if the Giants hope to even be mediocre next year.
Think about that…..just because we get a new GM next year doesn’t mean he will be any better because the people hiring him don’t know what they are doing.
We need George Young to come back….
Your points are fair, but ownership isn't changing. They built a winning program when they found the right head coach. So it IS possible to fix it.
Think about that…..just because we get a new GM next year doesn’t mean he will be any better because the people hiring him don’t know what they are doing.
We need George Young to come back….
Been saying this for awhile now. Change 100% needs to happen, but it's more likely that the people in charge hire someone just as bad or even worse than someone that will make improvements. I don't have the confidence that they can identify someone to make things better. Ideally they'd hire someone outside of the organization to find that person that isn't named Accorsi.
I'm hoping that as an intelligent and reasonable person, he realizes he needs to go outside of the organization to fix this. It's really our only hope, unless he sells his share. (Please save us Tisches lol.)
I'm hoping that as an intelligent and reasonable person, he realizes he needs to go outside of the organization to fix this. It's really our only hope, unless he sells his share. (Please save us Tisches lol.)
Maybe it's not a question of smart vs stupid, but whether or not his cash flow goes down due to years and years of futility.
I'm hoping that as an intelligent and reasonable person, he realizes he needs to go outside of the organization to fix this. It's really our only hope, unless he sells his share. (Please save us Tisches lol.)
Maybe it's not a question of smart vs stupid, but whether or not his cash flow goes down due to years and years of futility.
Well that is the problem M.S.
I mean how motivated is he really going to be to change out his family and people he trusts for an outsider when he continues to rake in millions regardless of the ticket sales. Owners do not need to rely on the fanbase any longer. It really depends on where is heart is. Does he really really care to step out of his comfort zone. I do not think so, why should he, his franchise appreciates every year ten fold. Many owners really dont care, I mean how many owners really fight for relevance each year? 12 maybe half?
It’s not about money.
It’s about believing that the FO executives can make the ‘arms- length ‘ review of the problems, and resolve them internally when current history and over the history the last 40 years they were best served when the relinquished to outside authority.
What would you do right now about the OL aside from replacing Solder with Peart? Would you bench Hernandez for Bredeson?
Golladay can't separate. Even my untrained eye can see that most of his catches are contested. He does will with those balls to his credit, but it means that whoever is throwing him the ball is usually doing so into pretty tight windows. Right now, especially given their salaries, Ross was a better signing than Golladay.
I want to wait until the end of the season to make a final verdict on Jones. He's under relentless pressure and has no running game. Sometimes I think he's not seeing the whole field because he has no faith in his OL to give him time to do so. But there are a lot of other plays where he has the time and just doesn't, or misses an open receiver. The game isn't slowing down for him like it should be in his third year, even with a poor OL. Those two INTS were definitely on him.
I'm willing to bring him back next year but as of now would not pick up his fifth year option. I'd also consider trading him during the draft if a QB I liked was available, and starting a veteran until the new QB could take over.
Thanks again. Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.
Jones is back for next year no matter what unless someone actually wanted him in a trade. The QB market will be crowded so that is possible, but those chances are slim.
Prefer to read bout what is wrong with the franchise w/o all the whining and bitching.
Perhaps, the most interesting part was paragraph 1 of the closing comments. Instead of being multiple, maybe they need to really settle on a base defense. You get better by playing and I would think that part of that is repetition in similar situations.
Not upset over Roche, Ojulari, or Smith getting shut down against a quality team. They will develop or will not survive.
RE: Jones, the team was supposedly to be built around Barkley - you cannot judge either when you have 4 TFL, 9 QB hits, 12 Pressures, and 3 sacks. Pretty sad that Gates and Thomas are the only ones who we really think are keepers.
Who does the scouting for OL?
While watching the game, I considered it a miracle
that we've won three games. The Bucs are good, and we aren't. It would be sweet if we could somehow win 4 of the last 7 but I'm guessing 3 is the ceiling.
The offensive game plan that we saw against New Orleans (heavy play action, lots of emphasis on protecting the QB, downfield throws), have they not done that as much since? Have they stopped doing it as opponents adjust?
The lack of playaction as Garrett's biggest fault. This OL and Jones benefitted from it so much, yet he did not use it half as much as he should have.
Thank you so much for answering my question. Unfortunately, your answer was frightening. What possible explanation could there be for Garrett not doing this?
The offensive game plan that we saw against New Orleans (heavy play action, lots of emphasis on protecting the QB, downfield throws), have they not done that as much since? Have they stopped doing it as opponents adjust?
Also, has Joe Judge’s emphasis on being “multiple” actually hurt the team because they have no identity?
The lack of playaction as Garrett's biggest fault. This OL and Jones benefitted from it so much, yet he did not use it half as much as he should have.
People said the same things when there were rumors Wilson’s wife wanted him in NY 3 years ago. It’s a win now league. If they can make it work under the cap you trade for Rodgers or Wilson (I think Watson appears to be a total POS so I don’t think that happens).
While everybody was blaming the offense, the defense was playing touch football.
I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees Barkley go down so easily. I remarked during the game, does he ever break a tackle? When he was touched by the hand of God he fell for no gain.
Gettleman and Judge will likely blame injuries for the offensive line problems, but it seems like other teams have injuries on their line and figure out ways to still be productive.
Judge is just a Gettleman and Mara bootlicker. I hope he found it worth it to sacrifice his credibility to be a one time head coach.
It's so good of you to point this out, because as everyone knows when you are a head coach with no prior head coach experience, you really should just go in and tell the owner and GM that you're the boss and they should kowtow to you. I mean, navigating organizational politics when you're the new kid on the block, that's just for wimps!
is the one optic where I could see Mara moving on from Jones.
He's always so concerned with optics, that bringing in a pro-bowler at the position, especially if Jones goes back to Seattle as part of the trade, would be easier for him to stomach. With the 2 number ones next year, they have the ammunition to get this done. The cap will be a problem though.
They will suck. Poor coaching results in shit teams. Interior o-line issues are not the guys getting run over it’s their refusal to pick up a stunt. Either the players are too stupid or we have the worst three o-line coaches in history. Thinking the latter. This staff has not coached up a single player, to the point where when they were making Thomas awful, he went and reached out to out side sources to fix it. If it ain’t broke Judge and crew will break it. Solder should not be in the field have to think this is some NE love affair Judge has, probably only reason Logan Ryan and Ebner are on this roster.
To do so implies that the Giants are simply a quarterback away from the playoffs. This is not the case. Throwing money at a Wilson or whomever is putting the team further in salary cap hell to no purpose. Jettison the overpaid players. Do not pay premium for unproductive players (Barkley). Draft an offensive line and defensive line (ER's and tackles), keep Jones for another year, then go looking for a future quarterback. Do not under any circumstances sign Wilson or anyone like him who costs money, and do not throw money at Barkley who can fairly be called a 1st round bust.
Wilson, Rogers, Brady or any quarterback of that caliber are looking for an opportunity for one more ring. They see or have seen that their teams are going downhill so they're looking for an up and coming defender.
Why on earth would Wilson want to come to this shitshow ? To get killed behind this OL ? Even if they were to look for a second tier veteran I'd be suspicious of any QB that says they want to come here. The only reason for coming here is to pick up a paycheck.
Reality check: Next years coach will be Judge. Unless there's an injury, next years QB is Jones.
OT Andrew Thomas, S Julian Love, S Xavier McKinney
I never thought I would get to this point in my football life, to be excited to watch Sunday football only to focus on a left tackle, living and dying on his every set not giving a shit about anyone else on the offensive side.
Why is Graham always playing corners off...?why?
This was one of the most uninspired Giants games I have ever witnessed in 55+ years of watching. Aside from the 1st drive, the offense was trash. It is games like this that Jones shows he likely does not belong as a starting QB. He simply does not snap the offense together.
I turned it off after the 1st INT in the 3rd qtr.
FWIW, Garrett deserved to get fired, but Graham did nothing in this game to inspire confidence either. Frankly, Brady out coached him and found every weakness in Graham's concepts. And yes the lack of pass rush is a major cause. But after three good games, the defense was back to performing like the 1st 6.
I've rather given up hope of seeing something dramatically better this season, and will settle for dramatically different.
Thanks! Great review as always, Sy!
I've broken Sy'56's third closing thought into separate paragraphs to let this morass sink in:
"They don’t know how to draft,"
"they don’t know how to manage the cap,"
"they don’t know how to play 2-minute offense and defense,"
"they don’t know what to do in the red zone,"
"they don’t know how to manage timeouts."
"You can preach fundamentals all you want, and you can say one-liners about being a teaching-based coaching staff. Sounds very Belichick-y."
"That helps during the spring and summer months where results are subjective. However, the mismanagement always rears its ugly head during the fall and this is the problem that starts from the top."
I don't want to put words into Sy'56's mouth, but a lot of the above is directed straight at our Head Coach. Sy'56 is a professional and he chooses his words carefully. I am not a professional and, as a 60-year Giants fan, I am not nearly as judicious as Sy'56. But I stand by this early November post right after the Chiefs game:
"Why does Joe Judge deserve a third year as head coach when Pat Shurmur was kicked to the curb after two? Because Joe Judge is dealing with more injuries? Or, he's sounds more like a Commander-in-Chief? Or, he's more efficient with his time outs? Or, he's just better looking than Pat Shurmur?"
This was one of the most uninspired Giants games I have ever witnessed in 55+ years of watching. Aside from the 1st drive, the offense was trash. It is games like this that Jones shows he likely does not belong as a starting QB. He simply does not snap the offense together.
I turned it off after the 1st INT in the 3rd qtr.
FWIW, Garrett deserved to get fired, but Graham did nothing in this game to inspire confidence either. Frankly, Brady out coached him and found every weakness in Graham's concepts. And yes the lack of pass rush is a major cause. But after three good games, the defense was back to performing like the 1st 6.
The lack of in game adjustments is absolutely mind boggling. As Sy said, Graham was probably relying on a better rush from the front, which is why the backend was so damn far off. But at some point, shouldn’t Graham realize that the pass rush ISN’T getting there and make the appropriate adjustments in the back end? It seems each week Graham has a game plan and he’s going to stick with it regardless of what is actually happening on the field. Every. Single. Week. And the lack of any kind of disguise in the pre snap is as curious and infuriating as the lack of adjustments.
I think Tampa has drafted really well and they had a much better nucleus of players where it counts (OL/front 7) than what the Giants have. So if they had to give up a lot of picks to acquire a QB I am not sure the upside is nearly as much. Then you have a outstanding coaching staff versus ours.
Have a great Thanksgiving Sy and thanks for your great work on these.
Then again, the way the Giants are playing, BBI might not have many optimists left ;>)
Unfortunately Sy's reviews, while painful to read, are pretty spot on.
He seems to be a very easy decision. Won't he be one of many to be asked to leave the office. Permanently.
Hey, he knows what they have. He needed to scheme something to get pressure. He got none. The 3rd and 12 when Brady had "half a minute" to find Gronk(?) way down field was on him while rushing 3 was the epitome of silliness.
Hey sometimes DCs and OCs whiff.
Graham and Judge both have been asked in the past about not having elite pass rushers and they have both stated that it’s their job to scheme in a pass rush. The pass rush will come from all over if schemed properly. They know they don’t have the pass rushers, they said it didn’t matter.
We need the draft picks to build the OL , and other positions, so the QB CAN be a difference maker.
Plus AR is 37, RW is 30+, and DW is a….. PR problem.
We really need a GM who can build a team, then plug his HC and staff, and QB, if he thinks JJ and DJ aren’t those.
The question is: does ownership have the ,courage, to go outside their safety zone and pick one outside the ‘family’ to come in and make possible sweeping changes to the FO, including moving out family?
It's apparent that there is not a similar intelligence level in the games....I don't think it's particularly unique---Top Assistants fail as Head Coaches as much as Failed First Round QB's. Interesting that those two "positions" are so vexing to scout...and they are so tied together for any range of success. It's almost impossible to Scout for NFL QB Drafts....and for New Head Coaches.
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so predicated on talent upfront. Graham cannot do anything without horses putting pressure on the opponent. Think of all the Defensive coordinators made famous even in this franchise because of an elite pash rush. Our D Coordinators for all three Superbowls were Spags, Fewel and Fox. All made because we had elite to very good fronts. When the didnt have those fronts they were traveling mediocrity. So lets not be to quick to lay in on Graham.
Graham and Judge both have been asked in the past about not having elite pass rushers and they have both stated that it’s their job to scheme in a pass rush. The pass rush will come from all over if schemed properly. They know they don’t have the pass rushers, they said it didn’t matter.
lol. What the hell are they supposed to say? "Umm, yeah uh, our talent really sucks so we're kinda fucked on pass rush (and OL) until we get better players."
I think Tampa has drafted really well and they had a much better nucleus of players where it counts (OL/front 7) than what the Giants have. So if they had to give up a lot of picks to acquire a QB I am not sure the upside is nearly as much. Then you have a outstanding coaching staff versus ours.
Have a great Thanksgiving Sy and thanks for your great work on these.
Tampa is stuffed full of big, mean football players. Reminds me of the mid '80's Giants. (Yeah, I know Simms ain't Brady, but he wasn't bad.)
A few of us have been uttering these same things ad nauseum.
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In comment 15466187 BigBlueJ said:
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so predicated on talent upfront. Graham cannot do anything without horses putting pressure on the opponent. Think of all the Defensive coordinators made famous even in this franchise because of an elite pash rush. Our D Coordinators for all three Superbowls were Spags, Fewel and Fox. All made because we had elite to very good fronts. When the didnt have those fronts they were traveling mediocrity. So lets not be to quick to lay in on Graham.
Graham and Judge both have been asked in the past about not having elite pass rushers and they have both stated that it’s their job to scheme in a pass rush. The pass rush will come from all over if schemed properly. They know they don’t have the pass rushers, they said it didn’t matter.
lol. What the hell are they supposed to say? "Umm, yeah uh, our talent really sucks so we're kinda fucked on pass rush (and OL) until we get better players."
I don’t really give a shit what johnny5 thinks they should say. They said they could scheme to get pressure on the QB. So go do it. That’s literally all I care about. You said you could do it, so go do it. If rushing 3 or 4 all freaking game long while leaving your DBs 15 yards off the ball isn’t getting it done, be creative enough to make the adjustments that WILL get it done. They knew going into last offseason what they had on the roster. They didn’t exactly go out of their way to improve on it. They should have been pounding the table to add pass rushers if they felt they needed them. There were opportunities. They passed.
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The press conferences try to convince those who listen that things are under control and there is a plan in place. It is clear to me that this team does not have a plan beyond basic football. They don’t know how to draft, they don’t know how to manage the cap, they don’t know how to play 2-minute offense and defense, they don’t know what to do in the red zone, they don’t know how to manage timeouts. You can preach fundamentals all you want, and you can say one-liners about being a teaching-based coaching staff. Sounds very Belichick-y. That helps during the spring and summer months where results are subjective. However, the mismanagement always rears its ugly head during the fall and this is the problem that starts from the top.
A few of us have been uttering these same things ad nauseum.
We're not allowed to say it. Sy can have these opinions but when a fan says it "we don't know anything".
Jones, Barkley, Hernandez. Not good.
Not a mention of GB, who beat ARI (fully healthy at the time) and DAL appears to be doing their usual trend downward in Nov/Dec.
TB will be a tired football team by January.
IMO it all starts with Ownership, instilling family members in the business decisions and running this team like some Ole Boys club where they only hire people that they are familiar with/old friends of the family (Gettleman and Garrett). Not one competent team in the NFL would have hired these guys, I don’t have any confidence John Mara even recognizes the true issue at hand because he has surrounded himself with all family and “Yes” men.
Watching this game was brutal, you have no player accountability and not one person who is a difference maker (or at least is not being utilized to succeed in that way). This team lacks identity and always looks like a bunch of practice squad guys going against a teams starters in a Scrimmage. Sure there are a million problems, but I feel the root cause starts at the top, addressing all the symptoms is not going to fix anything until the FO and owner get it figured out.
Or is that totally unrealistic?
Not a mention of GB, who beat ARI (fully healthy at the time) and DAL appears to be doing their usual trend downward in Nov/Dec.
TB will be a tired football team by January.
I actually think they're going to be on the rise 2-3 weeks from now. As they were last year and as Brady has been his entire career.
Or is that totally unrealistic?
Totally unrealistic.
Jackson played college QB for years. Toney played high school QB.
Jones, Barkley, Hernandez. Not good.
Three of the reasons why we're looking at a near total re-build, which will require a new G.M. to figure out who, amongst the current players, is worth keeping and melding with a slew of new players acquired via the Draft, as well as undrafted free agents.
For all the blame thats been heaped on Jones if Booker had started this game and had 75% of the success he had against the Raiders, we are looking at a very different game. Jones would have had manageable 2nd and 3rd downs, they control the ball and they keep the GOAT off the field. That was the only chance they had to be competitive in this game. Indeed when Booker finally got in, he got some good runs in.
This team's inability to evaluate their own players is infuriating. If they were able to use Saquon Barkley the way the Giants used Dave Megget back in the day he could be a dangerous weapon, but this offense isn't set up that way. As it is, Saquon is of no help to this team.
IMO it all starts with Ownership, instilling family members in the business decisions and running this team like some Ole Boys club where they only hire people that they are familiar with/old friends of the family (Gettleman and Garrett). Not one competent team in the NFL would have hired these guys, I don’t have any confidence John Mara even recognizes the true issue at hand because he has surrounded himself with all family and “Yes” men.
Watching this game was brutal, you have no player accountability and not one person who is a difference maker (or at least is not being utilized to succeed in that way). This team lacks identity and always looks like a bunch of practice squad guys going against a teams starters in a Scrimmage. Sure there are a million problems, but I feel the root cause starts at the top, addressing all the symptoms is not going to fix anything until the FO and owner get it figured out.
Why? That will be third coaching staff/coordinators group?
Sorry, the clock runs out quick in NFL. With injuries and cap limit/contract savings an issue, they can't reinvest in Jones and Barkley.
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so predicated on talent upfront. Graham cannot do anything without horses putting pressure on the opponent. Think of all the Defensive coordinators made famous even in this franchise because of an elite pash rush. Our D Coordinators for all three Superbowls were Spags, Fewel and Fox. All made because we had elite to very good fronts. When the didnt have those fronts they were traveling mediocrity. So lets not be to quick to lay in on Graham.
Graham and Judge both have been asked in the past about not having elite pass rushers and they have both stated that it’s their job to scheme in a pass rush. The pass rush will come from all over if schemed properly. They know they don’t have the pass rushers, they said it didn’t matter.
Gettleman said something similar to this when asked back in 2020.
Giants risk a lot by trusting coaches’ scheme to create pass rush - ( New Window )
I've been saying this from day 1 and was laughed at. Who's laughing now?
OK, blitz? We have nobody who's particularly good at blitzing and more importantly, Brady has seen it all and will absolutely torch it.
If anybody should understand this, it's Giants fans. We've had massive success built on devastating pass rushers winning their 1-on-1 battles. Now we have the opposite of that.
If you had a team of 6 foot guys trying to guard Shaq, he'd score every time. There's no scheming for it. That's the situation when we play a team with a good OL and good QB.
Was it Payton who said it Monday?
You either blitz and die quickly, or play deep and force them to go down the field and score, hoping for a penalty and/or turnover.
A couple times they got that.
If the offense could have moved the ball some and just pulled their weight a bit, you're in the game past half time.
I think Graham is doing what he can give the state of the NFL passing game and rules, give the talent (lack of) up front.
Flip side, I have no idea what Jason Garrett was trying.
The evidence is all there- he's not any good. Time to move on.
I would love Rodgers or Wilson here. But Mara doesn't have the balls to make it happen.
And your conclusions at the end of what the team does not do well was so spot on. And aren't these all on Joe Judge as the head coach, especially since he says it is all about coaching? As the head coach he is responsible for the entire team. And the offense is putrid. The defense is mediocre at best. And finally, other than Gano, there is nothing special about the special teams.
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A mess, and there are no signs anything is going to get better anytime soon. This team can’t draft for shit, I’ll give the next OC a chance to squeeze whatever they can out of the Barkley and Jones experiment but my patience is wearing very thin. Those types of draft picks are why we have been the worst team in the league over the past 5 years, bust after bust.
IMO it all starts with Ownership, instilling family members in the business decisions and running this team like some Ole Boys club where they only hire people that they are familiar with/old friends of the family (Gettleman and Garrett). Not one competent team in the NFL would have hired these guys, I don’t have any confidence John Mara even recognizes the true issue at hand because he has surrounded himself with all family and “Yes” men.
Watching this game was brutal, you have no player accountability and not one person who is a difference maker (or at least is not being utilized to succeed in that way). This team lacks identity and always looks like a bunch of practice squad guys going against a teams starters in a Scrimmage. Sure there are a million problems, but I feel the root cause starts at the top, addressing all the symptoms is not going to fix anything until the FO and owner get it figured out.
Why? That will be third coaching staff/coordinators group?
Sorry, the clock runs out quick in NFL. With injuries and cap limit/contract savings an issue, they can't reinvest in Jones and Barkley.
I was referring to the next OC they go with as in now. Like the remainder of this season. Neither of them deserve to be conversation for re-signing, they are busts until they prove otherwise but like you said e clock is running out.
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In comment 15466288 beatrixkiddo said:
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A mess, and there are no signs anything is going to get better anytime soon. This team can’t draft for shit, I’ll give the next OC a chance to squeeze whatever they can out of the Barkley and Jones experiment but my patience is wearing very thin. Those types of draft picks are why we have been the worst team in the league over the past 5 years, bust after bust.
IMO it all starts with Ownership, instilling family members in the business decisions and running this team like some Ole Boys club where they only hire people that they are familiar with/old friends of the family (Gettleman and Garrett). Not one competent team in the NFL would have hired these guys, I don’t have any confidence John Mara even recognizes the true issue at hand because he has surrounded himself with all family and “Yes” men.
Watching this game was brutal, you have no player accountability and not one person who is a difference maker (or at least is not being utilized to succeed in that way). This team lacks identity and always looks like a bunch of practice squad guys going against a teams starters in a Scrimmage. Sure there are a million problems, but I feel the root cause starts at the top, addressing all the symptoms is not going to fix anything until the FO and owner get it figured out.
Why? That will be third coaching staff/coordinators group?
Sorry, the clock runs out quick in NFL. With injuries and cap limit/contract savings an issue, they can't reinvest in Jones and Barkley.
I was referring to the next OC they go with as in now. Like the remainder of this season. Neither of them deserve to be conversation for re-signing, they are busts until they prove otherwise but like you said e clock is running out.
Oh ok. My problem is they'll set the bar low (hey - we got three first downs in the game!) to justify going one more year where we will get same disappointment and then be stuck with facepalm reality of having to fully reset.
Also, has Joe Judge’s emphasis on being “multiple” actually hurt the team because they have no identity?
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In comment 15466312 Sammo85 said:
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In comment 15466288 beatrixkiddo said:
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A mess, and there are no signs anything is going to get better anytime soon. This team can’t draft for shit, I’ll give the next OC a chance to squeeze whatever they can out of the Barkley and Jones experiment but my patience is wearing very thin. Those types of draft picks are why we have been the worst team in the league over the past 5 years, bust after bust.
IMO it all starts with Ownership, instilling family members in the business decisions and running this team like some Ole Boys club where they only hire people that they are familiar with/old friends of the family (Gettleman and Garrett). Not one competent team in the NFL would have hired these guys, I don’t have any confidence John Mara even recognizes the true issue at hand because he has surrounded himself with all family and “Yes” men.
Watching this game was brutal, you have no player accountability and not one person who is a difference maker (or at least is not being utilized to succeed in that way). This team lacks identity and always looks like a bunch of practice squad guys going against a teams starters in a Scrimmage. Sure there are a million problems, but I feel the root cause starts at the top, addressing all the symptoms is not going to fix anything until the FO and owner get it figured out.
Why? That will be third coaching staff/coordinators group?
Sorry, the clock runs out quick in NFL. With injuries and cap limit/contract savings an issue, they can't reinvest in Jones and Barkley.
I was referring to the next OC they go with as in now. Like the remainder of this season. Neither of them deserve to be conversation for re-signing, they are busts until they prove otherwise but like you said e clock is running out.
Oh ok. My problem is they'll set the bar low (hey - we got three first downs in the game!) to justify going one more year where we will get same disappointment and then be stuck with facepalm reality of having to fully reset.
Exactly, it would be another year wasted. I felt bringing back Garrett after last year was a huge mistake, if they don’t make dramatic improvements I think they should start selling everyone they can minus a handful of players (Thomas, Toney, McKinney)
Personally, I would stay away from the older QB's, as I just don't think we are a QB away from being a SB contender. Watson would be a premier target without his off field issues, but I can't see an ownership group as risk-averse as the Mara's considering bringing him in.
Personally, I would stay away from the older QB's, as I just don't think we are a QB away from being a SB contender. Watson would be a premier target without his off field issues, but I can't see an ownership group as risk-averse as the Mara's considering bringing him in.
Rodgers' age can be a deterrent. I also don't like the way he carries himself.
Wilson has 10+ years left in him.
Also, has Joe Judge’s emphasis on being “multiple” actually hurt the team because they have no identity?
The lack of playaction as Garrett's biggest fault. This OL and Jones benefitted from it so much, yet he did not use it half as much as he should have.
If I'm the Browns? Yeah, I'm doing that. Steelers, too. Maybe the Saints.
Giants are too far away from contending to risk it. Also, why would Wilson want to spend the end of his career in this mess?
It was impossible to ignore in that game. He had Galladay single covered down the field with a step, and Jones threw it into a mess of bodies resulting in an incomplete pass.
Jones can't play off script. He can't see the field. He's failing.
How many QBs even play till 40?
How many QBs even play till 40?
The elite ones in recent years? It is more common as sport nutrition and recovery become more prevalent with these guys. Wilson is the kind of guy that spends 5-6 hours per day recovering, 10-12 hours sleeping...etc. Almost like an addiction similar to what you saw from Brees and see with Brady.
I think Wilson is next on that list.
Rodgers is a little riskier as he actually is old for the position. Watson is a no for obvious reasons. Wilson would be the sweet spot for me. I think there would be non-football reasons to make the Giants a preferred destination for him too. It's an option that deserves discussion here and with the Giants themselves if this team is indeed on his radar.
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so predicated on talent upfront. Graham cannot do anything without horses putting pressure on the opponent. Think of all the Defensive coordinators made famous even in this franchise because of an elite pash rush. Our D Coordinators for all three Superbowls were Spags, Fewel and Fox. All made because we had elite to very good fronts. When the didnt have those fronts they were traveling mediocrity. So lets not be to quick to lay in on Graham.
Was it Payton who said it Monday?
You either blitz and die quickly, or play deep and force them to go down the field and score, hoping for a penalty and/or turnover.
A couple times they got that.
If the offense could have moved the ball some and just pulled their weight a bit, you're in the game past half time.
I think Graham is doing what he can give the state of the NFL passing game and rules, give the talent (lack of) up front.
Flip side, I have no idea what Jason Garrett was trying.
I think Garrett was trying to scheme around very little talent. Especially OL/QB/RB
Then again, the way the Giants are playing, BBI might not have many optimists left ;>)
Unfortunately Sy's reviews, while painful to read, are pretty spot on.
First, I don't think it is good to judge who are real fans and who are not. I think fans resist analysis by other fans on this board because, well, they (we) are just fans. Sy does this for a living. I also take what former coaches and players say more seriously than what fans say even if it does not fit what I want to hear.
If there's a ~90% chance that we get prime Wilson for 5+ years, then yeah I'm in. I just don't think the #s are high enough to warrant the investment.
Lloyd and Dean are LB1/LB1A on my ILB stack right now.
Dean is going to have size issues, so Lloyd could end up being the guy there. Top 20 pick. Great speed and twitch but also anticipates. Gets through creases better than any LB I have seen in a few years.
If there's a ~90% chance that we get prime Wilson for 5+ years, then yeah I'm in. I just don't think the #s are high enough to warrant the investment.
Completely fine there. It is guess work, after all. And yes, Wilson's injury history can dampen my long term view of him as well. To be honest, I haven't gone deep there yet, I merely wanted to bring up the thought to generate discussion. As I have said a few times, I am not going in on what NUYG should do at QB until after week 18.
Likewise for Solder. Judge is just a Gettleman and Mara bootlicker. I hope he found it worth it to sacrifice his credibility to be a one time head coach.
What would you do right now about the OL aside from replacing Solder with Peart? Would you bench Hernandez for Bredeson?
Golladay can't separate. Even my untrained eye can see that most of his catches are contested. He does will with those balls to his credit, but it means that whoever is throwing him the ball is usually doing so into pretty tight windows. Right now, especially given their salaries, Ross was a better signing than Golladay.
I want to wait until the end of the season to make a final verdict on Jones. He's under relentless pressure and has no running game. Sometimes I think he's not seeing the whole field because he has no faith in his OL to give him time to do so. But there are a lot of other plays where he has the time and just doesn't, or misses an open receiver. The game isn't slowing down for him like it should be in his third year, even with a poor OL. Those two INTS were definitely on him.
I'm willing to bring him back next year but as of now would not pick up his fifth year option. I'd also consider trading him during the draft if a QB I liked was available, and starting a veteran until the new QB could take over.
Thanks again. Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.
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Not to go off on a tangent here, but a few of us were debating the talent of Devin Lloyd the other day. I was hoping you'd see it and chime in. Since you didn't, and you are posting today, what do you think of Lloyd?
Lloyd and Dean are LB1/LB1A on my ILB stack right now.
Dean is going to have size issues, so Lloyd could end up being the guy there. Top 20 pick. Great speed and twitch but also anticipates. Gets through creases better than any LB I have seen in a few years.
Thanks. Indeed, he can really can find the ball and knife through small areas. Was ultra impressive last weekend against Oregon. Ducks had no answers for him.
Personally, I think he's going top ten and is the most complete defensive player I've seen this year. Sneaky good blitzer, btw, too.
If our QB/OC can't use that skill set, it's going to be a lot of $$$ going down the drain.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Then again, the way the Giants are playing, BBI might not have many optimists left ;>)
Unfortunately Sy's reviews, while painful to read, are pretty spot on.
The people you're referencing are deluded and removed from reality. Eventually, at some point over the next 10 years, this team will have a good season and they can tell us "I told you so." Reminds me of a certain economist who has been predicting inflation for the last 30 years and is now crowing about being right.
Think about that…..just because we get a new GM next year doesn’t mean he will be any better because the people hiring him don’t know what they are doing.
We need George Young to come back….
Think about that…..just because we get a new GM next year doesn’t mean he will be any better because the people hiring him don’t know what they are doing.
We need George Young to come back….
Can't be much worse. Gettleman is 18-40. It's amazing he got to come back this season.
My biggest hope is that the powers that be realize regardless of how the offense performs with Kitchens at the helm, the Giants problems go much deeper and wider. Really, the only thing this can potentially answer is about where Jones is. Other than that, they still have huge problems on the field, sidelines, and front office that all still need to be addressed if the Giants hope to even be mediocre next year.
Think about that…..just because we get a new GM next year doesn’t mean he will be any better because the people hiring him don’t know what they are doing.
We need George Young to come back….
Your points are fair, but ownership isn't changing. They built a winning program when they found the right head coach. So it IS possible to fix it.
Think about that…..just because we get a new GM next year doesn’t mean he will be any better because the people hiring him don’t know what they are doing.
We need George Young to come back….
Been saying this for awhile now. Change 100% needs to happen, but it's more likely that the people in charge hire someone just as bad or even worse than someone that will make improvements. I don't have the confidence that they can identify someone to make things better. Ideally they'd hire someone outside of the organization to find that person that isn't named Accorsi.
Maybe it's not a question of smart vs stupid, but whether or not his cash flow goes down due to years and years of futility.
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I'm hoping that as an intelligent and reasonable person, he realizes he needs to go outside of the organization to fix this. It's really our only hope, unless he sells his share. (Please save us Tisches lol.)
Maybe it's not a question of smart vs stupid, but whether or not his cash flow goes down due to years and years of futility.
Well that is the problem M.S.
I mean how motivated is he really going to be to change out his family and people he trusts for an outsider when he continues to rake in millions regardless of the ticket sales. Owners do not need to rely on the fanbase any longer. It really depends on where is heart is. Does he really really care to step out of his comfort zone. I do not think so, why should he, his franchise appreciates every year ten fold. Many owners really dont care, I mean how many owners really fight for relevance each year? 12 maybe half?
It’s about believing that the FO executives can make the ‘arms- length ‘ review of the problems, and resolve them internally when current history and over the history the last 40 years they were best served when the relinquished to outside authority.
What would you do right now about the OL aside from replacing Solder with Peart? Would you bench Hernandez for Bredeson?
Golladay can't separate. Even my untrained eye can see that most of his catches are contested. He does will with those balls to his credit, but it means that whoever is throwing him the ball is usually doing so into pretty tight windows. Right now, especially given their salaries, Ross was a better signing than Golladay.
I want to wait until the end of the season to make a final verdict on Jones. He's under relentless pressure and has no running game. Sometimes I think he's not seeing the whole field because he has no faith in his OL to give him time to do so. But there are a lot of other plays where he has the time and just doesn't, or misses an open receiver. The game isn't slowing down for him like it should be in his third year, even with a poor OL. Those two INTS were definitely on him.
I'm willing to bring him back next year but as of now would not pick up his fifth year option. I'd also consider trading him during the draft if a QB I liked was available, and starting a veteran until the new QB could take over.
Thanks again. Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.
Jones is back for next year no matter what unless someone actually wanted him in a trade. The QB market will be crowded so that is possible, but those chances are slim.
Perhaps, the most interesting part was paragraph 1 of the closing comments. Instead of being multiple, maybe they need to really settle on a base defense. You get better by playing and I would think that part of that is repetition in similar situations.
Not upset over Roche, Ojulari, or Smith getting shut down against a quality team. They will develop or will not survive.
RE: Jones, the team was supposedly to be built around Barkley - you cannot judge either when you have 4 TFL, 9 QB hits, 12 Pressures, and 3 sacks. Pretty sad that Gates and Thomas are the only ones who we really think are keepers.
Who does the scouting for OL?
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The offensive game plan that we saw against New Orleans (heavy play action, lots of emphasis on protecting the QB, downfield throws), have they not done that as much since? Have they stopped doing it as opponents adjust?
The lack of playaction as Garrett's biggest fault. This OL and Jones benefitted from it so much, yet he did not use it half as much as he should have.
Thank you so much for answering my question. Unfortunately, your answer was frightening. What possible explanation could there be for Garrett not doing this?
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The offensive game plan that we saw against New Orleans (heavy play action, lots of emphasis on protecting the QB, downfield throws), have they not done that as much since? Have they stopped doing it as opponents adjust?
Also, has Joe Judge’s emphasis on being “multiple” actually hurt the team because they have no identity?
The lack of playaction as Garrett's biggest fault. This OL and Jones benefitted from it so much, yet he did not use it half as much as he should have.
People said the same things when there were rumors Wilson’s wife wanted him in NY 3 years ago. It’s a win now league. If they can make it work under the cap you trade for Rodgers or Wilson (I think Watson appears to be a total POS so I don’t think that happens).
I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees Barkley go down so easily. I remarked during the game, does he ever break a tackle? When he was touched by the hand of God he fell for no gain.
Gettleman and Judge will likely blame injuries for the offensive line problems, but it seems like other teams have injuries on their line and figure out ways to still be productive.
Judge is just a Gettleman and Mara bootlicker. I hope he found it worth it to sacrifice his credibility to be a one time head coach.
It's so good of you to point this out, because as everyone knows when you are a head coach with no prior head coach experience, you really should just go in and tell the owner and GM that you're the boss and they should kowtow to you. I mean, navigating organizational politics when you're the new kid on the block, that's just for wimps!
He's always so concerned with optics, that bringing in a pro-bowler at the position, especially if Jones goes back to Seattle as part of the trade, would be easier for him to stomach. With the 2 number ones next year, they have the ammunition to get this done. The cap will be a problem though.
Why on earth would Wilson want to come to this shitshow ? To get killed behind this OL ? Even if they were to look for a second tier veteran I'd be suspicious of any QB that says they want to come here. The only reason for coming here is to pick up a paycheck.
Reality check: Next years coach will be Judge. Unless there's an injury, next years QB is Jones.