after Monday night's loss to the Bucs. I find his take very interesting, very telling and honestly says a lot of what most of us are saying. Clearly this franchise is lost at the moment.
Points he makes:
We went after players, playmakers without correcting the OL first- adding Barkley, QB and then Golladay and still with a crappy OL.
Play calling, play schemes, coaching decisions, player selection all done without really any cohesion and certainly without and signs of success.
Mentions our 28% winning percentage since the ill fated boat trip prior to the WC game following the 2016 season. I know a lot people continue to say that is way overblown BUT, it does fit with this franchise- some success equals over inflated sense of success and self and leads to failure. Now that sense of success is tied to even lower levels of "success" like finishing 6-10 last year and even this year being 3-7 but should have won 2 other games. I now get why some posters are adamant about not wanting those close calls looked at as wins that we screwed up because it feeds those in charge with the idea that we are THIS close vs we are so bad that we screw up even when we have a chance to win.
Take a watch/listen and see what you think. Nothing earth shatteringly new but, a very stark and fresh take from a NON Giant fan but one who talks through the eyes of one.
Link - (
New Window )
But it wasn't nearly enough.
If the Giants had Justin Herbert, I’d imagine this team is at least 6-4. I think that’s a lot of the issue.
If JJ is retained, he will be on the clock, in his 3rd year. If the GM wants to tear down, it is going to be a challenge.
And although I agree that DG hasn't been good, how many of you think JJ had nothing to do with the picks this year? Can you see him thing the GM they were comfortable with the guys they had and could 'teach them.'
+1000000000000000000000
Great post.
I've been a JJ defender but 100%% you are spot on with your post. If new GM wants him gone-- goodbye JJ.
Secondly, I agree with you that JJ didn't have some input. But with that said, that doesn't mean he had final say input nor does he deserve to get crushed for year 1 for not selecting exactly correct players.
Next year is the year imo for him too. He now sees (he had better!) for example that he needs a much, much better OL.
And another pas rusher.
I'd go a step further and say that the real playmakers on the field are the athletic big men and the guys that rush the passer. We've passed on so many great athletes in favor of shiny new toys that it's mind blowing.
So you didn't listen? Because he said he is a Jets fan.
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Rich Eisen is a Giants fan.
So you didn't listen? Because he said he is a Jets fan.
Yeah, I heard that... I could have sword he said that he rooted for the Giants in the past. Maybe he just said NY.
No GM hits 100%, but the OL acquisition has been abysmal.
OL is a HUGE problem. There's plenty of other huge problems, such as no edge, so you can't say "fix the OL, and life will be rosy". But, a decent OL makes a LOT of other Offense woes more manageable.
Grab a better QB if one is available. Don't waste resources on anything but a top QB prospect (this year) Otherwise, OL and edge are the top spots to work on.
If the Giants had Justin Herbert, I’d imagine this team is at least 6-4. I think that’s a lot of the issue.
On the field this is issue number one, no question.
The last thing the Giants should be thinking about is a "Giants Way" to solve this issue. They need to look at best practices in 2021 across the league, not Giants' practices in 1986.
The past is the fucking past.
There's still a bit of time for that narrative to change, but not much, and the chances of it changing are becoming increasingly unlikely.
At the end of this season, I would trade Jones and find a reclamation project such as Blake Bortles, and target the 2023 NFL Draft for a franchise QB.
Almost every draft decision DG has made was the wrong one, but Barkley really wasn't one of them from a draft in the moment perspective. That draft pick isn't the reason DG has failed, and if Saquon had remained healthy, we'd be talking about him as a cornerstone piece.
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Lousy QB play. This team has had shitty QB play now for half a decade. It’s really hard to build a strong roster, most teams don’t have that. But you know what the strong teams have? QB’s that elevate the roster.
If the Giants had Justin Herbert, I’d imagine this team is at least 6-4. I think that’s a lot of the issue.
On the field this is issue number one, no question.
The last thing the Giants should be thinking about is a "Giants Way" to solve this issue. They need to look at best practices in 2021 across the league, not Giants' practices in 1986.
The past is the fucking past.
The BigBlueVCR account is posting highlights from the NYG-Philly 2000 divisional game. While I love watching those highlights, it might as well be 1930 in how the game was played.
After winning the Super Bowl where Eli carried the team and took a brutal beating in the NFCCG and with our defensive warriors and OL on fumes here is the 2012 draft. The drafts continued to be poor for years.
Wilson, Randle, Hosley, Robinson, Mosley McCants, Kuhn.
In hindsight, they should have loaded up on OL in 2012-13, cut the aging veterans, taken the cap hits and created a window of 2014-? with a younger more running oriented team imo. Instead they took the band-aid approach with competing agendas in the FO/CS.
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Lousy QB play. This team has had shitty QB play now for half a decade. It’s really hard to build a strong roster, most teams don’t have that. But you know what the strong teams have? QB’s that elevate the roster.
If the Giants had Justin Herbert, I’d imagine this team is at least 6-4. I think that’s a lot of the issue.
On the field this is issue number one, no question.
The last thing the Giants should be thinking about is a "Giants Way" to solve this issue. They need to look at best practices in 2021 across the league, not Giants' practices in 1986.
The past is the fucking past.
Best practices are QB + OL + pass rush. In some ways, the game hasn't changed at all.
But it wasn't nearly enough.
What’s considered enough? Over the past 10 years they’ve spent:
2020: 1st on Thomas, 3rd on Peart, 5th in Lemieux
2018: 2nd on Hernandez
2015: 1st on Flowers
2014: 2nd on Richburg
2013: 1st on Pugh
2011: 4th on Brewer
2019: Signed Remmers
2018: Signed Solder and Omameh
2017: Signed Fluker
2015: signed Newhouse and Brett Jones
2014: signed Schwartz
2011 they signed Bass
You can’t just spend first and second round picks on oline every year. Of that list of players who made a positive impact on the Giants for more than a year? Pugh is probably it.
There's still a bit of time for that narrative to change, but not much, and the chances of it changing are becoming increasingly unlikely.
At the end of this season, I would trade Jones and find a reclamation project such as Blake Bortles, and target the 2023 NFL Draft for a franchise QB.
Almost every draft decision DG has made was the wrong one, but Barkley really wasn't one of them from a draft in the moment perspective. That draft pick isn't the reason DG has failed, and if Saquon had remained healthy, we'd be talking about him as a cornerstone piece.
Disagree.. The issue started with and still is the biggest issue overall, the picking of Barkley. That was a move by a guy who had zero clue about the overall team and saw a guy he convinced himself was the next Payton, Faulk or Tomlinson and screwed the team build going forward.
What’s considered enough? Over the past 10 years they’ve spent:
2020: 1st on Thomas, 3rd on Peart, 5th in Lemieux
2018: 2nd on Hernandez
2015: 1st on Flowers
2014: 2nd on Richburg
2013: 1st on Pugh
2011: 4th on Brewer
2019: Signed Remmers
2018: Signed Solder and Omameh
2017: Signed Fluker
2015: signed Newhouse and Brett Jones
2014: signed Schwartz
2011 they signed Bass
You can’t just spend first and second round picks on oline every year. Of that list of players who made a positive impact on the Giants for more than a year? Pugh is probably it.
Agreed 100%, at some point our front office needs to be able to grab decent starters in rounds 2-7. Getting a bona fide starting guard in rounds 2-7 didn't seem like such a monumental undertaking 15 years ago.
Quote:
What’s considered enough? Over the past 10 years they’ve spent:
2020: 1st on Thomas, 3rd on Peart, 5th in Lemieux
2018: 2nd on Hernandez
2015: 1st on Flowers
2014: 2nd on Richburg
2013: 1st on Pugh
2011: 4th on Brewer
2019: Signed Remmers
2018: Signed Solder and Omameh
2017: Signed Fluker
2015: signed Newhouse and Brett Jones
2014: signed Schwartz
2011 they signed Bass
You can’t just spend first and second round picks on oline every year. Of that list of players who made a positive impact on the Giants for more than a year? Pugh is probably it.
Agreed 100%, at some point our front office needs to be able to grab decent starters in rounds 2-7. Getting a bona fide starting guard in rounds 2-7 didn't seem like such a monumental undertaking 15 years ago.
At some point the coaches need to be able to coach a stunt pickup. Outside of Solder, most of the line problems revolve around the players in there having no clue who to block. Poor play design, poor blocking concepts, no coaching up players. Unless every o linemen the Giants get is just more idiotic and unreachable than every other teams linemen’s.
Quote:
What’s considered enough? Over the past 10 years they’ve spent:
2020: 1st on Thomas, 3rd on Peart, 5th in Lemieux
2018: 2nd on Hernandez
2015: 1st on Flowers
2014: 2nd on Richburg
2013: 1st on Pugh
2011: 4th on Brewer
2019: Signed Remmers
2018: Signed Solder and Omameh
2017: Signed Fluker
2015: signed Newhouse and Brett Jones
2014: signed Schwartz
2011 they signed Bass
You can’t just spend first and second round picks on oline every year. Of that list of players who made a positive impact on the Giants for more than a year? Pugh is probably it.
Agreed 100%, at some point our front office needs to be able to grab decent starters in rounds 2-7. Getting a bona fide starting guard in rounds 2-7 didn't seem like such a monumental undertaking 15 years ago.
And is this somehow related to coaching and developing players, something wrong at an organizational level... Mel Kiper would get a few of these picks right, you can try for results this bad and a few of these picks you get a decent starter.
The last thing the Giants should be thinking about is a "Giants Way" to solve this issue. They need to look at best practices in 2021 across the league, not Giants' practices in 1986.
The past is the fucking past.
Something is never going to change in this league. That is winning the game in the trenches. We have been losing in that area for a decade. It is having the ability to run the ball, to stop the run, and to get a pass rush.
you can continue to cry about the QB if you like and I am not dismissing that because the QB is the single most important position on the field. However, like others have said if you bring Russel Wilson in here... the Giants still are not a playoff team.
Quote:
Lousy QB play. This team has had shitty QB play now for half a decade. It’s really hard to build a strong roster, most teams don’t have that. But you know what the strong teams have? QB’s that elevate the roster.
If the Giants had Justin Herbert, I’d imagine this team is at least 6-4. I think that’s a lot of the issue.
On the field this is issue number one, no question.
The last thing the Giants should be thinking about is a "Giants Way" to solve this issue. They need to look at best practices in 2021 across the league, not Giants' practices in 1986.
The past is the fucking past.
"The past isn't dead. It isn't even past."
Quote:
The last thing the Giants should be thinking about is a "Giants Way" to solve this issue. They need to look at best practices in 2021 across the league, not Giants' practices in 1986.
The past is the fucking past.
Something is never going to change in this league. That is winning the game in the trenches. We have been losing in that area for a decade. It is having the ability to run the ball, to stop the run, and to get a pass rush.
you can continue to cry about the QB if you like and I am not dismissing that because the QB is the single most important position on the field. However, like others have said if you bring Russel Wilson in here... the Giants still are not a playoff team.
Eric, the Seahawks are bad this year and are going to miss the playoffs, but starting in 2012, they've made the playoffs every season with the exception of 2017. And that year they were 9-7, so a winning record every year since 2012.
Most of that time they're OL has been objectively bad. The elite QBs can cover somewhat for a bad OL. Wilson is an elite QB, DJ is not.
The Giants need to draft an elite QB. It's tough to do but without finding that guy, you have to build everything else as top tier units. They've failed at both endeavors.
Quote:
Took over a roster that was near or at the bottom of the league. At this point, he's succeeded in adding some pieces that can be a part of the future, but his rebuild plan has failed. And the biggest reason that is the case is the pick of Daniel Jones, who looks like a QB who's ceiling is bottom half starter in the NFL.
There's still a bit of time for that narrative to change, but not much, and the chances of it changing are becoming increasingly unlikely.
At the end of this season, I would trade Jones and find a reclamation project such as Blake Bortles, and target the 2023 NFL Draft for a franchise QB.
Almost every draft decision DG has made was the wrong one, but Barkley really wasn't one of them from a draft in the moment perspective. That draft pick isn't the reason DG has failed, and if Saquon had remained healthy, we'd be talking about him as a cornerstone piece.
Disagree.. The issue started with and still is the biggest issue overall, the picking of Barkley. That was a move by a guy who had zero clue about the overall team and saw a guy he convinced himself was the next Payton, Faulk or Tomlinson and screwed the team build going forward.
He is the next Faulk or Tomlinson, he's just been bit by injury and a bad team around him.
Quote:
Yes, they drafted guys here and there. We're talking about a 10 year span. There were some attempts.
But it wasn't nearly enough.
What’s considered enough? Over the past 10 years they’ve spent:
2020: 1st on Thomas, 3rd on Peart, 5th in Lemieux
2018: 2nd on Hernandez
2015: 1st on Flowers
2014: 2nd on Richburg
2013: 1st on Pugh
2011: 4th on Brewer
2019: Signed Remmers
2018: Signed Solder and Omameh
2017: Signed Fluker
2015: signed Newhouse and Brett Jones
2014: signed Schwartz
2011 they signed Bass
You can’t just spend first and second round picks on oline every year. Of that list of players who made a positive impact on the Giants for more than a year? Pugh is probably it.
Hopeful future with top OT pick that year Andrew Thomas and found a decent UDFA in Nick Gates who picked up how to play Center.
The rest of those names are pretty valueless. At least when they played for us.
just awful...
They’ve invested enough in the Oline that it shouldn’t still be this bad, they’ve just invested in the wrong players.
this is exactly right.
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In comment 15467548 allstarjim said:
Quote:
Took over a roster that was near or at the bottom of the league. At this point, he's succeeded in adding some pieces that can be a part of the future, but his rebuild plan has failed. And the biggest reason that is the case is the pick of Daniel Jones, who looks like a QB who's ceiling is bottom half starter in the NFL.
There's still a bit of time for that narrative to change, but not much, and the chances of it changing are becoming increasingly unlikely.
At the end of this season, I would trade Jones and find a reclamation project such as Blake Bortles, and target the 2023 NFL Draft for a franchise QB.
Almost every draft decision DG has made was the wrong one, but Barkley really wasn't one of them from a draft in the moment perspective. That draft pick isn't the reason DG has failed, and if Saquon had remained healthy, we'd be talking about him as a cornerstone piece.
Disagree.. The issue started with and still is the biggest issue overall, the picking of Barkley. That was a move by a guy who had zero clue about the overall team and saw a guy he convinced himself was the next Payton, Faulk or Tomlinson and screwed the team build going forward.
He is the next Faulk or Tomlinson, he's just been bit by injury and a bad team around him.
Barkley is part of the blocking problems. He can't pick up the blitz - by this point in his career it should be a given. Until then he is a liability.
I am still trying to figure out how at team with pro bowl players R. Okung and M. Unger on a team is considered having a objectively bad OL in 2012-2015. Yes their 16 OL was bad, but in 17 they had a Pro Bowl LT, a good C in Britt. They kept bringing people in. It has gotten really bad last year and this year
2012 they were No3 in rushing offense
2013 they were No4 in rushing offense
2014 they were No1 in rushing offense
2015 they were No3 in rushing offense
2108 they were No1 rushing offense
2019 they were No3 rushing offense
6 times in 8 years top 4 in rushing offense
I will take that bad OL all day
Quote:
In comment 15467584 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
In comment 15467548 allstarjim said:
Quote:
Took over a roster that was near or at the bottom of the league. At this point, he's succeeded in adding some pieces that can be a part of the future, but his rebuild plan has failed. And the biggest reason that is the case is the pick of Daniel Jones, who looks like a QB who's ceiling is bottom half starter in the NFL.
There's still a bit of time for that narrative to change, but not much, and the chances of it changing are becoming increasingly unlikely.
At the end of this season, I would trade Jones and find a reclamation project such as Blake Bortles, and target the 2023 NFL Draft for a franchise QB.
Almost every draft decision DG has made was the wrong one, but Barkley really wasn't one of them from a draft in the moment perspective. That draft pick isn't the reason DG has failed, and if Saquon had remained healthy, we'd be talking about him as a cornerstone piece.
Disagree.. The issue started with and still is the biggest issue overall, the picking of Barkley. That was a move by a guy who had zero clue about the overall team and saw a guy he convinced himself was the next Payton, Faulk or Tomlinson and screwed the team build going forward.
He is the next Faulk or Tomlinson, he's just been bit by injury and a bad team around him.
Barkley is part of the blocking problems. He can't pick up the blitz - by this point in his career it should be a given. Until then he is a liability.
Since his rookie season everyone knew he couldn’t pick up a blitz, athletic guy do the coaches not know how to teach him or is he just unwilling?
Quote:
The last thing the Giants should be thinking about is a "Giants Way" to solve this issue. They need to look at best practices in 2021 across the league, not Giants' practices in 1986.
The past is the fucking past.
Something is never going to change in this league. That is winning the game in the trenches. We have been losing in that area for a decade. It is having the ability to run the ball, to stop the run, and to get a pass rush.
you can continue to cry about the QB if you like and I am not dismissing that because the QB is the single most important position on the field. However, like others have said if you bring Russel Wilson in here... the Giants still are not a playoff team.
No matter what the people like you say, a good QB on this team would make us much more competitive
the head coach is clueless and in way over his head
the quarterback is atrocious
these are all very obvious things
Quote:
Lousy QB play. This team has had shitty QB play now for half a decade. It’s really hard to build a strong roster, most teams don’t have that. But you know what the strong teams have? QB’s that elevate the roster.
If the Giants had Justin Herbert, I’d imagine this team is at least 6-4. I think that’s a lot of the issue.
On the field this is issue number one, no question.
The last thing the Giants should be thinking about is a "Giants Way" to solve this issue. They need to look at best practices in 2021 across the league, not Giants' practices in 1986.
The past is the fucking past.
No it isn’t. The primary issue is the franchise hasn’t been strong in the trenches in 10 years.
The last half of Eli’s career would look dramatically different with a strong OL, and he might even still be playing. So it’s not all on “lousy QB play.”
Giants football is being dominant up front and this organization has done a shit job getting back there despite paying lip service to it. No QB, WR, RB, TE, or CB is going to solve the problem.
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In comment 15467545 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The last thing the Giants should be thinking about is a "Giants Way" to solve this issue. They need to look at best practices in 2021 across the league, not Giants' practices in 1986.
The past is the fucking past.
Something is never going to change in this league. That is winning the game in the trenches. We have been losing in that area for a decade. It is having the ability to run the ball, to stop the run, and to get a pass rush.
you can continue to cry about the QB if you like and I am not dismissing that because the QB is the single most important position on the field. However, like others have said if you bring Russel Wilson in here... the Giants still are not a playoff team.
No matter what the people like you say, a good QB on this team would make us much more competitive
Who cares about "being competitive?" This is what I've said the last few years about posters such as yourself being used to losing and accepting it.
If you're competitive but don't win who the hell cares?
While you bitch about the QB - I say if the Giants had a decent OL they'd be 6-4 right now, and they would've made the playoffs last year.
Their OL was 31st last year according to PFF and I believe a couple of weeks ago was the same 31. You realize 31 isn't "JUST" "BAD," right?
A First round pick
A second round pick
A third round pick
A starter through a trade
A massive contract to Solder
Several mid size contracts
They have invested. They just invested poorly.
I could easily argue they haven't invested enough. They come out of what was reportedly a very OL rich draft with zero OL drafted. They bring in a lot of bottom feeding OL as stop gap who are more gap than stop.
They have been horrendous at building an OL, but the effort was there.
I don't think so. Plus, he wouldn't have bankrupted the cap to get a winning season in 2016 by going on a defensive spending spree. That alone killed what was left of Eli's playing time, since he never got the OLine help he needed for later in his career. Again, when DG had the opportunity, but instead of really going all out to rebuild the lines, he went for skill players and bankrupted the cap on offensive players who couldn't stay healthy. Bad decisions = bad team.
Letting Nelson get away still ticks me off, Nelson was the real deal "Touched by God" prospect. And I don't care if the consenus is you don't draft a guard at #2, when a linemen are that good (like Donald and Nelson), you run to the podium to draft them. Donald and Nelson would have been building blocks for both lines.
A First round pick
A second round pick
A third round pick
A starter through a trade
A massive contract to Solder
Several mid size contracts
They have invested. They just invested poorly.
I could easily argue they haven't invested enough. They come out of what was reportedly a very OL rich draft with zero OL drafted. They bring in a lot of bottom feeding OL as stop gap who are more gap than stop.
They have been horrendous at building an OL, but the effort was there.
Who gives a shit if “the effort was there?” This isn’t a participation trophy game.
Even still the effort was shit. There was nothing on the OL when DG took over and everyone knew the OL was a problem. He could’ve came away with 2 or 3 quality OL in that draft and instead we got trash.
I agree regarding the state of it sucking, and being a major drag on the ability of the Offense to execute.
How can they not be embarrassed already?
I agree regarding the state of it sucking, and being a major drag on the ability of the Offense to execute.
When you take a RB 2 overall and trade 3 picks to move up for Deandre Baker amongst other things, yes it’s lip service. A few random draft picks and some shitty FA signings doesn’t show me they’re taking the problem seriously.