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Our Coordinators Have Stunk

GiantGrit : 11/26/2021 12:15 pm
Who Judge picks as his next OC will ultimately make or break his tenure here (assuming he stays another year which I think he will).

On that note, the Giants have not only missed on talent but also coaching hires, namely the coordinators.

Mike Sullivan - didn't even call plays under Mac
Mike Shula -didn't even call plays and was let go by Carolina prior to his hire here
Jason Garrett - Let go by Dallas as a HC but oft criticized for offensive playcalling and having an outdated scheme

Defensively
Spags - mixed results, I like him but I never really felt as if he coached up talent, he needed pieces in place
Bettcher - Sucked
Graham - Last year was good, this year incredibly up & down. Not terrible but not excellent.

I wonder how different things would have been if Shurmur was able to hire Stefanski & if Judge was able to hire Brian Daboll. Not that I think either hire suddenly makes each team a contender, but does Stefanski help win 2-3 more games and give Shurmur a third year? Does Daboll get more production out of Jones? I think so.

When was the last time the Giants had an absolute star at coordinator? A guy that just screamed HC in waiting. I know Graham was anointed that guy by media but I do not see it with him.

Just some thoughts I had this morning. When the talent lacks, and the coaching lacks, you get the results we have the past few years.

Last good coordinator…  
Wiggy : 11/26/2021 12:19 pm : link
Maybe Sean Payton was the last good one?
Steve Smith under Gilbride  
Spiciest Memelord : 11/26/2021 12:25 pm : link
required triple coverage from defensive coordinators. Never seen anything like it.
I miss  
Wiggy : 11/26/2021 12:36 pm : link
Good offense
Who knew like 90% of winning  
Debaser : 11/26/2021 12:39 pm : link
was firing your OC and hiring some guy that can draw all these gimmick plays to trick defenses. Execution and good talent have NOTHING to do with it.

Who knew OC's turn what otherwise is a 3 win shit team into like a super bowl competitor.

I was watching the Detroit Lions off all things yesterday, and their head coach had this same brilliant insight of calling plays recently, and guess what ? The shitty Detroit Lions still looked like the Shitty Detroit Lions.
Spags could coach up talent  
Mike in NY : 11/26/2021 12:44 pm : link
The issue with his schemes is that they required the players to stay healthy. A lot of it appeared to be the defensive equivalent of WR's running option routes. Just as an offense looked like crap when QB and WR were not reading coverages the same way, Spags's D looked like trash when players had limited reps with each other so one DB would be expecting another to take over coverage of a player and the second DB was expecting that the first DB would be staying with that guy.
RE: Who knew like 90% of winning  
GiantGrit : 11/26/2021 12:52 pm : link
In comment 15467524 Debaser said:
Quote:
was firing your OC and hiring some guy that can draw all these gimmick plays to trick defenses. Execution and good talent have NOTHING to do with it.

Who knew OC's turn what otherwise is a 3 win shit team into like a super bowl competitor.

I was watching the Detroit Lions off all things yesterday, and their head coach had this same brilliant insight of calling plays recently, and guess what ? The shitty Detroit Lions still looked like the Shitty Detroit Lions.


Who said that? You're making up an opposition to validate your point. No one is arguing hiring a better OC suddenly means you're a contender - but are we really disputing we wouldn't have been better off with Stefanski or Daboll?
RE: RE: Who knew like 90% of winning  
Debaser : 11/26/2021 12:56 pm : link
In comment 15467536 GiantGrit said:
Quote:
In comment 15467524 Debaser said:


Quote:


was firing your OC and hiring some guy that can draw all these gimmick plays to trick defenses. Execution and good talent have NOTHING to do with it.

Who knew OC's turn what otherwise is a 3 win shit team into like a super bowl competitor.

I was watching the Detroit Lions off all things yesterday, and their head coach had this same brilliant insight of calling plays recently, and guess what ? The shitty Detroit Lions still looked like the Shitty Detroit Lions.



Who said that? You're making up an opposition to validate your point. No one is arguing hiring a better OC suddenly means you're a contender - but are we really disputing we wouldn't have been better off with Stefanski or Daboll?


I don’t know. Every time Garrett called that jet sweep this place wanted his ass for it. Meanwhile I’ve watched the rams call that same pay and it results in like a 20 yard gain
By the end of the year, we will know if Garrett was a bad coordinator  
Ivan15 : 11/26/2021 12:57 pm : link
Or Judge is a bad strategist and a bad leader.

Garrett wasn’t working in a vacuum. Judge was giving him direction. If the game plan sucked, Judge had at least as much to do with it as Garrett.
Amidst the talk about coordingating and coaching  
Gruber : 11/26/2021 12:58 pm : link
there is also the question of player development. Coaching is the preapredness for a game, but player development is about transitioning from college ball to the NFL, finding the right outlet for a talent.
Have the Giants simply drafted badly or have they failed to develop their picks properly?
It's more about what they have been given to  
Jimmy Googs : 11/26/2021 1:01 pm : link
coordinate, but they may not be all that strong either...
RE: Amidst the talk about coordingating and coaching  
GiantGrit : 11/26/2021 1:07 pm : link
In comment 15467547 Gruber said:
Quote:
there is also the question of player development. Coaching is the preapredness for a game, but player development is about transitioning from college ball to the NFL, finding the right outlet for a talent.
Have the Giants simply drafted badly or have they failed to develop their picks properly?


Excellent point, it is certainly both.
RE: RE: RE: Who knew like 90% of winning  
Spiciest Memelord : 11/26/2021 1:23 pm : link
In comment 15467543 Debaser said:
Quote:
In comment 15467536 GiantGrit said:


Quote:


In comment 15467524 Debaser said:


Quote:


was firing your OC and hiring some guy that can draw all these gimmick plays to trick defenses. Execution and good talent have NOTHING to do with it.

Who knew OC's turn what otherwise is a 3 win shit team into like a super bowl competitor.

I was watching the Detroit Lions off all things yesterday, and their head coach had this same brilliant insight of calling plays recently, and guess what ? The shitty Detroit Lions still looked like the Shitty Detroit Lions.



Who said that? You're making up an opposition to validate your point. No one is arguing hiring a better OC suddenly means you're a contender - but are we really disputing we wouldn't have been better off with Stefanski or Daboll?



I don’t know. Every time Garrett called that jet sweep this place wanted his ass for it. Meanwhile I’ve watched the rams call that same pay and it results in like a 20 yard gain

Rams have what's his face Cooks. And I'm sure their RT is not Nate Solder. And previously had Gurley.
RE: Last good coordinator…  
Ben in Tampa : 11/26/2021 1:28 pm : link
In comment 15467505 Wiggy said:
Quote:
Maybe Sean Payton was the last good one?


Gilbride was an excellent coordinator for many years

Perry Fewell wasn’t exactly great, and maybe he was barely good enough, but he won a world championship

Overall it has been a lot of stinkers
No Garrett Fan But  
Samiam : 11/26/2021 1:46 pm : link
In his defense, is it possible that the horrible OL play affected his play calling? Hard for me to believe it didn’t. Similarly, is it possible that he didn’t trust Daniel Jones and that that affected his playcalling? That said, how do you not throw to Golloday and Toney often when it counts? How do you take these guys out on a 4th down play and put in Collin Johnson and Ross? Garrett has done some seriously dumb things.
Exactly how was Judge going to hire Daboll  
Giants73 : 11/26/2021 1:47 pm : link
He was already Offensive Coordinator for Buffalo. You assuming the Bills so no value in him as the Dolphins so no value in Graham and were going to let him walk?
RE: No Garrett Fan But  
Debaser : 11/26/2021 2:11 pm : link
In comment 15467581 Samiam said:
Quote:
In his defense, is it possible that the horrible OL play affected his play calling? Hard for me to believe it didn’t. Similarly, is it possible that he didn’t trust Daniel Jones and that that affected his playcalling? That said, how do you not throw to Golloday and Toney often when it counts? How do you take these guys out on a 4th down play and put in Collin Johnson and Ross? Garrett has done some seriously dumb things.


It was 4th and 1. With backups in I guess he thought maybe he would trick them into thinking run. A little quick slant is not a lot to ask of any nfl player; no matter where they are on the depth chart.
Certainly coaches have a huge impact  
Lines of Scrimmage : 11/26/2021 3:48 pm : link
but they need a baseline of talent. Look at the history of well known coaches who have won a lot or been successful as coordinators. Often times they take dives in performance and most times it it is because of talent and not that they forgot to coach.

RE: Steve Smith under Gilbride  
bluewave : 11/26/2021 8:44 pm : link
In comment 15467511 Spiciest Memelord said:
Quote:
required triple coverage from defensive coordinators. Never seen anything like it.


Gilbride's offense was the best offensive system the Giants have had in the modern era. I've said this before and I'll say it again. I WOULD LOVE Eli to explain the Gilbride system and how dynamic it was in terms of what it offered Eli.

I've heard that it allowed Eli to change one or more routes to hot routes when he called the play at the line. That sounds like an EXTREMELY powerful tool in a QBs arsenal!
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