And with so many early draft picks.....and college scouting so entrenched....we can also assume they will just pick from internal candidates...so Abrams is the guy or a judge's choice
Not what bbi wants
If things continue to falter next year....assume a complete clean house next year
I get the sense that Judge is definitely returning. I don’t see how promoting Abrams is any different though. I’d look at Ossenfort, Pioli or Dimitroff if you want someone with NE ties.
But Judge and Jones will get one more year I think.
The problem becomes - whatever GM we hire should have a clean slate at coach and QB. More half measures.
Fair, but this assumes the old business model of GM higher up the pyramid than HC making decisions on both the HC and the QB.
Are we sure that football decisions don’t ultimately run through Joe Judge? I think this is more the modern way of thinking in the NFL and is likely the set up for more franchises than you realize. We know Snyder said when he hired Rivera that football decisions will run through him.
If Judge sticks around and signs off on the GM he feels most comfortable working with who’s to say that any “half measures” were actually taken? And as far as optics, only Dave Gettleman is truly tied to Daniel Jones so the minute DG is gone if Judge and the new GM want to go a different route, what voice is there in the room to say no?
If we pick our next GM based on what Joe Judge wants
Mara needs to go outside the organization for the next GM.
Give the next GM power to reorganize the scouting and pro personnel departments.
I wish Will McClay would agree to leave Dallas to become the next GM but it is highly unlikely.
RE: If we pick our next GM based on what Joe Judge wants
Then we are going to be bad for another half decade
Kind of an odd blanket statement considering Judge has relationships with some really intriguing candidates.
My general point is that Judge has shown absolutely nothing to prove that he should a central decision maker for the long term future of the franchise. If we finish with 5 or 6 wins, judge is coming into the next year on the hot seat. You don't let your coach, who is on the hot seat, pick their GM.
There is actually precedent for this is in the NFL. The Jets did this a couple of years ago. They let Gase pick his new GM, and then a year or two later Gase got fired. Should we really be emulating the organizational decisions made by the Jets?
Could be dysfunctional enough that cleaning house after being the worst team in football for a 5 year stretch is something even being debated by ownership. What an absolute shit show.
it is all hypothetical. Anyone here could have written that.
Do any of these guys have the ability to write about things between the lines? Maybe this guy could write an article about what he thinks the best approach would be to beat the Eagles.
His contract ends. Mara has the easier out here. The tough one is if the team continues heading South and then Judge is in the crosshairs. Tough sell for Mara saying he wants to be patient with a internal GM and he believes in what's in the building.
The compromise may be a outside GM that uses his first year as a evaluation but he has control of the draft. Then if next year stinks you clean out the coaching staff.
But the timing of this press report is interesting.
This conveys no information about Judge. The Giants aren’t going to undermine their head coach in the middle of the season. I believe he will be back, too, but not on the basis of a LACK of his being mentioned in press reports.
Judge will be head coach in 2022. No one will be happy if they basically lose out but I don't think even that is enough.
Mara is not a complicated individual and if he sees the team still in the mix in a lot of fourth quarters and players giving the effort then the Judge decision won't be difficult for him.
RE: With Gettleman contract expiring, we kind of already knew that.....
And with so many early draft picks.....and college scouting so entrenched....we can also assume they will just pick from internal candidates...so Abrams is the guy or a judge's choice
Not what bbi wants
If things continue to falter next year....assume a complete clean house next year
I don’t see the Giants firing their newly coined GM after 1 single season. Judge could be on the hot seat going into next year.
That’s what sucks about all this. HC and GM will be on different timelines
When Judge was hired it was for the long term. He is young. He and his coaches are focused on teaching the game of football. The players at least thus far have bought into his old school style. Most importantly,I believe the organization sees him as one of the next great head coaches in the NFL. He learned under Saban and Belichek, who I am sure put his seal of approval on the hiring. You don't go out and hire a young and up and coming coach and not let him mature into the job. I'm fine with that. In two years he has changed the culture, is loading the team with young talent (hoping this year adds greatly) and the teaching has begun.
His contract ends. Mara has the easier out here. The tough one is if the team continues heading South and then Judge is in the crosshairs. Tough sell for Mara saying he wants to be patient with a internal GM and he believes in what's in the building.
The compromise may be a outside GM that uses his first year as a evaluation but he has control of the draft. Then if next year stinks you clean out the coaching staff.
we could go 7-0 and make the playoffs and still not be able to justify giving DG a new deal.
It doesn't make sense to keep Judge because then the HC/GM are on different schedules...why can't they hire a GM, presumably a young guy they plan to keep for a long time? Judge gets another year to essentially prove to the new GM he is worth keeping and if not, they move on? The new GM can then pick his coach. This would assume the new GM is given autonomy in decision making and also avoids firing a 3rd coach in 2 years. Just a thought.
said nobody. This hire was comical from the beginning, after that “extensive” search. Now, mealy mouth Mara will promote his new schlub, Abrams. Abrams, the guy who put them in cap hell for the foreseeable future. Take a bow Johnny Boy; You really need a new hobby.
It doesn't make sense to keep Judge because then the HC/GM are on different schedules...why can't they hire a GM, presumably a young guy they plan to keep for a long time? Judge gets another year to essentially prove to the new GM he is worth keeping and if not, they move on? The new GM can then pick his coach. This would assume the new GM is given autonomy in decision making and also avoids firing a 3rd coach in 2 years. Just a thought.
A big reason is that if they are on different schedules, it means they have different priorities. What happens when the next GM wants to tear things down, and trade players for future assets? The GM will be thinking long term, but Judge will want players to win right now to save his job. You want a coach and GM who have the same priorities and are on the same page
In the building, there would be some strong candidates to replace him, notably VP of football operations and assistant GM Kevin Abrams. Outside the building, the organization will likely look at some candidates with a background in the New England scouting system more in-line with Judge's thinking, along with others.
Instrumental in building the Legion of Boom championship team in SEA. Got poached by Colts GM Chris Ballard, who made him his right hand man. Next year in IND they picked Nelson, Smith & Leonard at the top of the draft and have made good personnel decisions, including several late round hits. Ballard has said Dodds has been a huge part of their success, and he's considered one of the top talent evaluators in the NFL.
He interviewed for the DET GM job last year, withdrew his name from CAR's GM search and turned down an interview with CLE.
I fully expect it to be Abrams or O'Brien, but Dodds is a name I'd interview, and who may fit into the current power structure that realistically isn't going anywhere.
It doesn't make sense to keep Judge because then the HC/GM are on different schedules...why can't they hire a GM, presumably a young guy they plan to keep for a long time? Judge gets another year to essentially prove to the new GM he is worth keeping and if not, they move on? The new GM can then pick his coach. This would assume the new GM is given autonomy in decision making and also avoids firing a 3rd coach in 2 years. Just a thought.
A big reason is that if they are on different schedules, it means they have different priorities. What happens when the next GM wants to tear things down, and trade players for future assets? The GM will be thinking long term, but Judge will want players to win right now to save his job. You want a coach and GM who have the same priorities and are on the same page
I understand what you are saying, but in this scenario, the GM has the decision making power here. If it's someone new, we are hoping this person is here for a long time and that GM would have the ability to tear it down starting this off season if they want (and bring in their own coach). Or, Judge can come along for the ride, doesn't really matter. I get it's not ideal, but at this point, I don't think Joe Judge should be dictating what decisions are made, either way.
For the record, I'm not against firing Judge. But you can bring him back and still rebuild this team. Maybe Judge surprises and proves to be worth keeping. Or the new GM decides to move on. I'm just saying, I don't think it's as messy as some think.
It doesn't make sense to keep Judge because then the HC/GM are on different schedules...why can't they hire a GM, presumably a young guy they plan to keep for a long time? Judge gets another year to essentially prove to the new GM he is worth keeping and if not, they move on? The new GM can then pick his coach. This would assume the new GM is given autonomy in decision making and also avoids firing a 3rd coach in 2 years. Just a thought.
BBI makes far too big a deal out of stuff like this.
If anything a new GM puts Judge under the microscope even more, if they fail to turn it around quickly Judge is gone after next year and the GM gets a fresh HC.
Any GM candidate would know this, and would also know that it in effect gives the new GM an extra year to put the pieces together before he himself is under the microscope.
There are only 32 of these jobs in the world. Nobody is turning it down because of Judge's presence.
Assuming they are doing a wide search, the next GM will have a longer timeline than Judge. This new GM has a tough job and 2022 will most likely be an evaluation year, then make the call on Judge after 2022.
Now you’ve got GM/HC on the same schedule. And if the Giants win with Judge, no one cares anyway.
GM with an expiring contract and an 18-40 record is unlikely to return!
I think the idea that a new GM and Judge if he is the HC next year are on a different schedule is a problem is overblown when it comes to the Giants. The national media and to an extent the local media (because they are concerned about getting on the wrong side of ownership) haven't figured out or refuse to report that the Giants organizational chart in unlike any other team in the NFL.
50/50 ownership - the only team in the NFL and there is now a league rule prohibiting it from happening again. There are 11 equal owners on one side of the 50% and 3 equal owners on the other side. 14 voices in the mix. Some are very active publicly and some we don't hear about.
The GM is a Senior Vice President
The head of Player Personnel is a Senior Vice President. He is also one of the 11 owners of the 50% and his nephew whose mother is 2nd oldest of the 11 50% owners is the Co-Director of Player Personnel.
On almost all business org charts those SRVP positions would be on the same line reporting to the CEO since they are the highest employee titles. The CEO is the oldest of the 11 50% owners. So his brother "reports" to him and is in an equal employee position as the GM - not a report to the GM which is the standard NFL org chart.
So how can anyone outside of the building know how much authority the GM really has over who the HC is? Or who is the deciding vote in picking the players in the draft and free agency. It probably fluctuates based on the success or failure of the draft, free agent signings and the record of the team on the field at any given moment.
Taking all of that into consideration plus knowing how involved the CEO has been in hiring and firing HC's, why would changing the GM be a big issue in the Giants organization regarding the job status of the HC? For all we know the HC might report to the CEO too. We've heard several times from the CEO that his GM and HC work well together, inferring they are equals in his organization.
If ownership has decided that Judge will be back next year and they believe in his team building philosophy IMO they need to find someone for the GM position who is on that page with this HC but flexible if there's a change made after 2023. That means not allowing Judge to hire the GM or even giving him any input because if he is back he'll be on a short leash in 2022.
Keep in mind there is not going to be much cap space this off season. All of the big contracts will be back in 2022 unless the Giants want to eat a lot of cap space to let them go. So the team we see on the field and on IR now is probably not going to be that much different at the top of the roster in 2022.
They could cut Bradberry save 2M but it would cost 10M in dead money. They could cut Martinez and save about 3M but it would cost 5.5 in dead money. Solder has no contract but he's 4M in dead money next year. All of the big contracts and rookie contracts are way upside down cap wise in 2022, L. Williams, Thomas, Lawrence, Barkley, Jones, Adore, Golladay, Ryan, Sheppard and Gano are almost locks to be back if healthy based on their cap cost.
I guess some of those contracts could be restructured or extended but how wise would that be? Almost all of them are much more cap friendly in 2023. The Giants cap crunch is really only a 2022 issue unless they compound it. Let's hope they don't
Here are some players that cutting would help the Giants cap in 2022. It's not a huge amount of money.
Kyle Rudolph 2.2M dead money 3M savings
Nick Gates 500K dead money 2.5M savings
Riley Dixon 125K dead money 3M savings
The bottom of the roster has a bunch of guys that if cut would save about 750K-1M. But then they have to sign bodies to replace them which would cost the same thing or maybe more.
The Giants have 5 picks in the top 75 right now. Their 3rd and 4th picks this year have red shirted for the 1st half of this season. Toney has missed more time than he's played too. If the Giants are going to make any improvement in 2022 I think it's going to have to come from the 2021 and 2022 draft classes. If there are any big money FA signings this off season it's going to extend the cap crunch at least another year. There are always ways to add contracts in the NFL but for a team as bad as the Giants have been the past 5 years the only way up IMO is to build through the draft.
Let's hope the next GM can get all of the different factions in the Giants front office working together and not waste the crucial 2022 draft picks and not make the cap situation any worse. But before a new GM takes over the mess from the Gettleman years there are 7 more games to evaluate the players and the coaching staff.
It doesn't make sense to keep Judge because then the HC/GM are on different schedules...why can't they hire a GM, presumably a young guy they plan to keep for a long time? Judge gets another year to essentially prove to the new GM he is worth keeping and if not, they move on? The new GM can then pick his coach. This would assume the new GM is given autonomy in decision making and also avoids firing a 3rd coach in 2 years. Just a thought.
BBI makes far too big a deal out of stuff like this.
If anything a new GM puts Judge under the microscope even more, if they fail to turn it around quickly Judge is gone after next year and the GM gets a fresh HC.
Any GM candidate would know this, and would also know that it in effect gives the new GM an extra year to put the pieces together before he himself is under the microscope.
There are only 32 of these jobs in the world. Nobody is turning it down because of Judge's presence.
Yes, that's my thought as well. You said it better than me. Judge can go or stay, but I don't think it impacts the new GM's plan moving forward. At all.
When Judge was hired it was for the long term. He is young. He and his coaches are focused on teaching the game of football. The players at least thus far have bought into his old school style. Most importantly,I believe the organization sees him as one of the next great head coaches in the NFL. He learned under Saban and Belichek, who I am sure put his seal of approval on the hiring. You don't go out and hire a young and up and coming coach and not let him mature into the job. I'm fine with that. In two years he has changed the culture, is loading the team with young talent (hoping this year adds greatly) and the teaching has begun.
You do if you are a completely dysfunctional and poorly run organization that constantly sells itself on one line narratives. What flavor of Kool-Aid would you like?
Who give a fuck what this organization thinks. They haven't made a correct decision in 10 years. Not a single one, and we are supposed to be on board with these buffoons' choosing a former special teams coach because he has Belichik's cell phone number who has so far demonstrated that he is over his head and out of his depth? Check.
When Judge was hired it was for the long term. He is young. He and his coaches are focused on teaching the game of football. The players at least thus far have bought into his old school style. Most importantly,I believe the organization sees him as one of the next great head coaches in the NFL. He learned under Saban and Belichek, who I am sure put his seal of approval on the hiring. You don't go out and hire a young and up and coming coach and not let him mature into the job. I'm fine with that. In two years he has changed the culture, is loading the team with young talent (hoping this year adds greatly) and the teaching has begun.
You do if you are a completely dysfunctional and poorly run organization that constantly sells itself on one line narratives. What flavor of Kool-Aid would you like?
Who give a fuck what this organization thinks. They haven't made a correct decision in 10 years. Not a single one, and we are supposed to be on board with these buffoons' choosing a former special teams coach because he has Belichik's cell phone number who has so far demonstrated that he is over his head and out of his depth? Check.
Your opinion means nothing ... stick to fixing parking tickets,
It doesn't make sense to keep Judge because then the HC/GM are on different schedules...why can't they hire a GM, presumably a young guy they plan to keep for a long time? Judge gets another year to essentially prove to the new GM he is worth keeping and if not, they move on? The new GM can then pick his coach. This would assume the new GM is given autonomy in decision making and also avoids firing a 3rd coach in 2 years. Just a thought.
A big reason is that if they are on different schedules, it means they have different priorities. What happens when the next GM wants to tear things down, and trade players for future assets? The GM will be thinking long term, but Judge will want players to win right now to save his job. You want a coach and GM who have the same priorities and are on the same page
I can see that, but in this case if you look at the team needs they are similar both long and short term. You are looking at needing to add young OL and Edge help. Both would be part of a short term and long term rebuild. I think the lack of cap space will make it likely that they will need to rely a lot on the draft and not as much in FA. Also the first year, there is a lot of change within the organization for the new GM. I think sometimes there may be an advantage to seeing who from the coaching staff/FO you want to keep (if any) before getting rid of everyone and having some time to build the team around you instead of cramming all your hires in the month or so after the season ends.
My guess would be Abrams or Pioli
RE: Wow, how did he ever come up with that nugget of information?
...I think the idea that a new GM and Judge if he is the HC next year are on a different schedule is a problem is overblown when it comes to the Giants. The national media and to an extent the local media (because they are concerned about getting on the wrong side of ownership) haven't figured out or refuse to report that the Giants organizational chart in unlike any other team in the NFL...
So how can anyone outside of the building know how much authority the GM really has over who the HC is? Or who is the deciding vote in picking the players in the draft and free agency. It probably fluctuates based on the success or failure of the draft, free agent signings and the record of the team on the field at any given moment....
This.
Add to this witches' brew the factor of just how bad the optics become vis á vis the clusterfeck that is the NYGiants' franchise before Mara is really moved to 'real change'. Not holding my breath.
I assume Abrams does DG's bidding when it comes to signings and AAVs, so he may well be competent as a cap manager given that he's taking orders from a clueless loser. Keep him, John, as capologist/contract maker, if you absolutely must, give him a bump in title, if you must, but he cannot be the GM or decision maker.
A few have mentioned Petit as a candidate, Lordy No, no, and flat out no. He and Abrams were on the podium with DG just before or after 2021 draft: I watched Petit carefully throughout: he is a mindless man-in-a-suit Yes man, nothing more. But he nods at all the right moments, so there's that.
Ideally the choice would be to hire a VP of Football Operations
Mara would announce Gettleman’s retirement and bring in someone to oversee all operations, and not do this dance of GM and coach being attached at the hip. The new VP would interview Abrams of course, but ultimately choose his own GM. He would then do the same with the coach - interview Judge and determine whether he stays or goes.
Now both your coach and GM answer to one person. GM does not pick the coach and the coach does not pick the GM. You hire the best people available for both positions and supervise that they are working in tandem to build a roster the way the coaches want the team to play.
But this is Mara, so none of that will happen. Gettleman will retire, Abrams will be named GM, Jedge will stay, and we will here about how losing makes everyone upset and everyone is on the hot seat next year.
The dysfunction in the front office will not be corrected until John Mara realizes he is the epicenter of that dysfunction.
throw someone to the wolves,and hopefully avoid further embarrassment by keeping Judge for another year.In the process turning one heck of a blind eye to everything he's done.
All the while this just happens to be the day where Strahan's jersey is retired.
If Judge is back it can't be with a "win in 2022 or else mandate". This team isn't likely to be a winner in 2022 unless they trade for one of the big vet quarterbacks like Rodgers or Wilson.
This roster is like a house that was built by someone with no knowledge of how to build a house. There's no foundation, the roof leaks, all the wrong materials were used... it's basically a big pile of useless shit. It needs to be knocked down and completely rebuilt. And this time it needs to be built according to a blueprint that's been put together by a team of architects and engineers.
That process is going to take time. Forget these past two years - they were thrown away by the owner and GM.
Either you believe Judge is the guy for a long term project or you do not. If you do, then his survival beyond 2022 can't be based on the team's record.
If Judge is back it can't be with a "win in 2022 or else mandate". This team isn't likely to be a winner in 2022 unless they trade for one of the big vet quarterbacks like Rodgers or Wilson.
This roster is like a house that was built by someone with no knowledge of how to build a house. There's no foundation, the roof leaks, all the wrong materials were used... it's basically a big pile of useless shit. It needs to be knocked down and completely rebuilt. And this time it needs to be built according to a blueprint that's been put together by a team of architects and engineers.
That process is going to take time. Forget these past two years - they were thrown away by the owner and GM.
Either you believe Judge is the guy for a long term project or you do not. If you do, then his survival beyond 2022 can't be based on the team's record.
A comprehensive plan is needed.
I can agree with that, but his game management needs to improve. They knew going in there would be a learning curve with him, but he too needs to show improvement in some areas to warrant keeping around
You know who had great game management? McAdoo in 2016.
So managing the game is unimportant? I’m not sure I follow what you saying. What successful NFL coach is a poor game manager?
I agree that you can’t really bring in a new GM and tell the coach to win now with a completely mismanaged cap and roster. But you sure as hell should be telling him he needs to clean up the myriad of mistakes he made this year on his own.
- You need manage the clock much better than you did
- Your team (offense and defense) need to stop having so much trouble getting the right personnel on the field and lined up
- You have to stop using time outs randomly (often because of the point above)
- You have to understand basic rules of the game like ‘all scoring plays are reviewed and you can’t challenge them’
- You can’t throw away roster spots on guys who are average special teams players but can’t play offense or defense
That is all stuff that is squarely on Joe Judge, not Gettleman and this horrible roster.
judge in his third year goes 1-5 to start the season and demonstrates a continued inability to manage timeouts and other in-game basics, looks flat and uncompetitive against any team in the league over .500, and the giants end up with another losing record. abrams, the "capologist" with no football experience is going to be the one selecting a new HC?
we all but know this is what's going to happen. and what then when it does? abrams has shown himself to be nothing more than a clueless yes-man.
will mara reach out to garrett and just hire him as HC after a sham search? ya know, bc he was a backup QB for the giants one time, decades ago?
it would be so easy to just hire a football consulting company and outsource all these decisions to real professionals. for some reason, despite the last five years of evidence to the contrary, mara continues to think he knows better.
If Judge is back it can't be with a "win in 2022 or else mandate". This team isn't likely to be a winner in 2022 unless they trade for one of the big vet quarterbacks like Rodgers or Wilson.
This roster is like a house that was built by someone with no knowledge of how to build a house. There's no foundation, the roof leaks, all the wrong materials were used... it's basically a big pile of useless shit. It needs to be knocked down and completely rebuilt. And this time it needs to be built according to a blueprint that's been put together by a team of architects and engineers.
That process is going to take time. Forget these past two years - they were thrown away by the owner and GM.
Either you believe Judge is the guy for a long term project or you do not. If you do, then his survival beyond 2022 can't be based on the team's record.
A comprehensive plan is needed.
Thing is, I don't see any particular reason to keep him. If we're going to blow this thing up, blow it ALL the way up.
Though ... as long as Chris Mara still has power this team isn't blowing it ALL the way up.
everybody understands this is a deliberate story, right?
it's not about deep sourcing. this is the Giants organization putting this out there in an attempt to placate fans, and turn the story away from all the organization is completely incompetent and clueless stories that have begun to proliferate. the fact that Abrams is still mentioned as serious candidate - as one of several potential strong internal candidates (yuck) - shows you how they're still trying to spin. don't be surprised if stories start to dribble out about internal disagreements where Gettleman overruled other people in the building, or went against Judge's vision, etc as an attempt to justify not making more extensive changes. should be an interesting two months
The outcry among fans (and probably 75% of BBI were in the streets wielding pikes with his head on them) after it came out MacAdoo had decided to bench Eli. Mara quickly backtracked....and the oft noted irony here that it was the right decision (except for perception that Geno was wrong) and Mara's meddling was again the wrong decision.
It has to be a landslide of derision for the entitled, tone deaf, legacy football family that has completely lost its way due to the men in the suits. A horror show of optics. We'd think we were there.
My point is, if they don't fire him now then actually commit to him. Don't simply line him up as the next patsy.
If he's retained, start the clock over on him and write these last two years off as a Gettleman disaster.
Judge (or if he's fired, the new head coach) and the new GM should be tied at the hip - let them build their project together on the same time line. Sink or swim, they'll do it together.
terps is right in his last post. you either have to commit to judge now for multiple years in the future or fire him
why does the coach and GM being on the same timeline matter?
you have a ton of draft capital this year. drafting into a scheme matters. are you a power run team or a zone blocking team? west coast or vertical passing game? zone or press man defense? 3-4 or 4-3? you do not want to draft into judge's scheme with all these picks only to bring in a new coach who may run entirely different schemes.
if judge is on a 1 year trial run with a new GM, do you let judge pick a QB this year? what if the next coach doesn't like the QB (this could eliminate a lot of coaches from even interviewing)? or what if judge doesn't like the QB the GM picks? it's a recipe for a disaster
you cannot have the coach and GM on different timelines. you just can't. they need to be tied at the hip
think that was pretty much a given. What we don't want is for the Giants to promote from within. We need an outside approach, but not a former GM. I'd find someone on a team that has drafted well and is ready for their first GM job.
My point is, if they don't fire him now then actually commit to him. Don't simply line him up as the next patsy.
If he's retained, start the clock over on him and write these last two years off as a Gettleman disaster.
Judge (or if he's fired, the new head coach) and the new GM should be tied at the hip - let them build their project together on the same time line. Sink or swim, they'll do it together.
Abrams, Petit, Sternfeld should be shown the door quickly as well.
They’ve been a major part of the dysfunction and consistency in failure at multiple levels. Lack of self scouting and evaluation, lack of any fit at multiple positions that are critical to winning in today’s NFL.
I’d love to know how many besides Gettleman thought the Jones QB pick was a good move.
RE: everybody understands this is a deliberate story, right?
it's not about deep sourcing. this is the Giants organization putting this out there in an attempt to placate fans, and turn the story away from all the organization is completely incompetent and clueless stories that have begun to proliferate. the fact that Abrams is still mentioned as serious candidate - as one of several potential strong internal candidates (yuck) - shows you how they're still trying to spin. don't be surprised if stories start to dribble out about internal disagreements where Gettleman overruled other people in the building, or went against Judge's vision, etc as an attempt to justify not making more extensive changes. should be an interesting two months
^this nails it.
Abrams quick shiny trial ballon left no doubt for me.
Needs to look beyond Abrams and Patriots front office candidates . No half baked, half assed search otherwise we will likely be in the same spot 4 years from now.
Too many chefs who are each and collectively not good at their jobs. Judge is probably included in the steaming pile. He might be the one guy who gets a reprieve just so they can avoid cleaning house.
I will say too the article potentially props up Abrams, while also acknowledging they've got a ton of work to do to clean up and imo they need to start over.
My comments are in response to the RV article as well
My point is, if they don't fire him now then actually commit to him. Don't simply line him up as the next patsy.
If he's retained, start the clock over on him and write these last two years off as a Gettleman disaster.
Judge (or if he's fired, the new head coach) and the new GM should be tied at the hip - let them build their project together on the same time line. Sink or swim, they'll do it together.
Get all the oars rowing in unison for once.
Very good point, I agree with everything you said.
But Judge and Jones will get one more year I think.
The problem becomes - whatever GM we hire should have a clean slate at coach and QB. More half measures.
But Judge and Jones will get one more year I think.
The problem becomes - whatever GM we hire should have a clean slate at coach and QB. More half measures.
Yup.
Not what bbi wants
If things continue to falter next year....assume a complete clean house next year
<sarcastic mode off>
But Judge and Jones will get one more year I think.
The problem becomes - whatever GM we hire should have a clean slate at coach and QB. More half measures.
Fair, but this assumes the old business model of GM higher up the pyramid than HC making decisions on both the HC and the QB.
Are we sure that football decisions don’t ultimately run through Joe Judge? I think this is more the modern way of thinking in the NFL and is likely the set up for more franchises than you realize. We know Snyder said when he hired Rivera that football decisions will run through him.
If Judge sticks around and signs off on the GM he feels most comfortable working with who’s to say that any “half measures” were actually taken? And as far as optics, only Dave Gettleman is truly tied to Daniel Jones so the minute DG is gone if Judge and the new GM want to go a different route, what voice is there in the room to say no?
Give the next GM power to reorganize the scouting and pro personnel departments.
I wish Will McClay would agree to leave Dallas to become the next GM but it is highly unlikely.
Kind of an odd blanket statement considering Judge has relationships with some really intriguing candidates.
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Then we are going to be bad for another half decade
Kind of an odd blanket statement considering Judge has relationships with some really intriguing candidates.
My general point is that Judge has shown absolutely nothing to prove that he should a central decision maker for the long term future of the franchise. If we finish with 5 or 6 wins, judge is coming into the next year on the hot seat. You don't let your coach, who is on the hot seat, pick their GM.
There is actually precedent for this is in the NFL. The Jets did this a couple of years ago. They let Gase pick his new GM, and then a year or two later Gase got fired. Should we really be emulating the organizational decisions made by the Jets?
Do any of these guys have the ability to write about things between the lines? Maybe this guy could write an article about what he thinks the best approach would be to beat the Eagles.
The compromise may be a outside GM that uses his first year as a evaluation but he has control of the draft. Then if next year stinks you clean out the coaching staff.
This conveys no information about Judge. The Giants aren’t going to undermine their head coach in the middle of the season. I believe he will be back, too, but not on the basis of a LACK of his being mentioned in press reports.
Mara is not a complicated individual and if he sees the team still in the mix in a lot of fourth quarters and players giving the effort then the Judge decision won't be difficult for him.
Not what bbi wants
If things continue to falter next year....assume a complete clean house next year
I don’t see the Giants firing their newly coined GM after 1 single season. Judge could be on the hot seat going into next year.
That’s what sucks about all this. HC and GM will be on different timelines
The compromise may be a outside GM that uses his first year as a evaluation but he has control of the draft. Then if next year stinks you clean out the coaching staff.
we could go 7-0 and make the playoffs and still not be able to justify giving DG a new deal.
A big reason is that if they are on different schedules, it means they have different priorities. What happens when the next GM wants to tear things down, and trade players for future assets? The GM will be thinking long term, but Judge will want players to win right now to save his job. You want a coach and GM who have the same priorities and are on the same page
He interviewed for the DET GM job last year, withdrew his name from CAR's GM search and turned down an interview with CLE.
I fully expect it to be Abrams or O'Brien, but Dodds is a name I'd interview, and who may fit into the current power structure that realistically isn't going anywhere.
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It doesn't make sense to keep Judge because then the HC/GM are on different schedules...why can't they hire a GM, presumably a young guy they plan to keep for a long time? Judge gets another year to essentially prove to the new GM he is worth keeping and if not, they move on? The new GM can then pick his coach. This would assume the new GM is given autonomy in decision making and also avoids firing a 3rd coach in 2 years. Just a thought.
A big reason is that if they are on different schedules, it means they have different priorities. What happens when the next GM wants to tear things down, and trade players for future assets? The GM will be thinking long term, but Judge will want players to win right now to save his job. You want a coach and GM who have the same priorities and are on the same page
I understand what you are saying, but in this scenario, the GM has the decision making power here. If it's someone new, we are hoping this person is here for a long time and that GM would have the ability to tear it down starting this off season if they want (and bring in their own coach). Or, Judge can come along for the ride, doesn't really matter. I get it's not ideal, but at this point, I don't think Joe Judge should be dictating what decisions are made, either way.
For the record, I'm not against firing Judge. But you can bring him back and still rebuild this team. Maybe Judge surprises and proves to be worth keeping. Or the new GM decides to move on. I'm just saying, I don't think it's as messy as some think.
I fully expect, alas, Abrams to be elevated to GM. And I can only hope the fan base revolts and tickets aren't renewed.
I know that's a pipe dream, but I can dream...
BTW, I was a Judge supporter. Now? I find his act old and trite. And if he's let go, I would be perfectly fine with that as well.
BBI makes far too big a deal out of stuff like this.
If anything a new GM puts Judge under the microscope even more, if they fail to turn it around quickly Judge is gone after next year and the GM gets a fresh HC.
Any GM candidate would know this, and would also know that it in effect gives the new GM an extra year to put the pieces together before he himself is under the microscope.
There are only 32 of these jobs in the world. Nobody is turning it down because of Judge's presence.
Now you’ve got GM/HC on the same schedule. And if the Giants win with Judge, no one cares anyway.
I think the idea that a new GM and Judge if he is the HC next year are on a different schedule is a problem is overblown when it comes to the Giants. The national media and to an extent the local media (because they are concerned about getting on the wrong side of ownership) haven't figured out or refuse to report that the Giants organizational chart in unlike any other team in the NFL.
50/50 ownership - the only team in the NFL and there is now a league rule prohibiting it from happening again. There are 11 equal owners on one side of the 50% and 3 equal owners on the other side. 14 voices in the mix. Some are very active publicly and some we don't hear about.
The GM is a Senior Vice President
The head of Player Personnel is a Senior Vice President. He is also one of the 11 owners of the 50% and his nephew whose mother is 2nd oldest of the 11 50% owners is the Co-Director of Player Personnel.
On almost all business org charts those SRVP positions would be on the same line reporting to the CEO since they are the highest employee titles. The CEO is the oldest of the 11 50% owners. So his brother "reports" to him and is in an equal employee position as the GM - not a report to the GM which is the standard NFL org chart.
So how can anyone outside of the building know how much authority the GM really has over who the HC is? Or who is the deciding vote in picking the players in the draft and free agency. It probably fluctuates based on the success or failure of the draft, free agent signings and the record of the team on the field at any given moment.
Taking all of that into consideration plus knowing how involved the CEO has been in hiring and firing HC's, why would changing the GM be a big issue in the Giants organization regarding the job status of the HC? For all we know the HC might report to the CEO too. We've heard several times from the CEO that his GM and HC work well together, inferring they are equals in his organization.
If ownership has decided that Judge will be back next year and they believe in his team building philosophy IMO they need to find someone for the GM position who is on that page with this HC but flexible if there's a change made after 2023. That means not allowing Judge to hire the GM or even giving him any input because if he is back he'll be on a short leash in 2022.
Keep in mind there is not going to be much cap space this off season. All of the big contracts will be back in 2022 unless the Giants want to eat a lot of cap space to let them go. So the team we see on the field and on IR now is probably not going to be that much different at the top of the roster in 2022.
They could cut Bradberry save 2M but it would cost 10M in dead money. They could cut Martinez and save about 3M but it would cost 5.5 in dead money. Solder has no contract but he's 4M in dead money next year. All of the big contracts and rookie contracts are way upside down cap wise in 2022, L. Williams, Thomas, Lawrence, Barkley, Jones, Adore, Golladay, Ryan, Sheppard and Gano are almost locks to be back if healthy based on their cap cost.
I guess some of those contracts could be restructured or extended but how wise would that be? Almost all of them are much more cap friendly in 2023. The Giants cap crunch is really only a 2022 issue unless they compound it. Let's hope they don't
Here are some players that cutting would help the Giants cap in 2022. It's not a huge amount of money.
Kyle Rudolph 2.2M dead money 3M savings
Nick Gates 500K dead money 2.5M savings
Riley Dixon 125K dead money 3M savings
The bottom of the roster has a bunch of guys that if cut would save about 750K-1M. But then they have to sign bodies to replace them which would cost the same thing or maybe more.
The Giants have 5 picks in the top 75 right now. Their 3rd and 4th picks this year have red shirted for the 1st half of this season. Toney has missed more time than he's played too. If the Giants are going to make any improvement in 2022 I think it's going to have to come from the 2021 and 2022 draft classes. If there are any big money FA signings this off season it's going to extend the cap crunch at least another year. There are always ways to add contracts in the NFL but for a team as bad as the Giants have been the past 5 years the only way up IMO is to build through the draft.
Let's hope the next GM can get all of the different factions in the Giants front office working together and not waste the crucial 2022 draft picks and not make the cap situation any worse. But before a new GM takes over the mess from the Gettleman years there are 7 more games to evaluate the players and the coaching staff.
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It doesn't make sense to keep Judge because then the HC/GM are on different schedules...why can't they hire a GM, presumably a young guy they plan to keep for a long time? Judge gets another year to essentially prove to the new GM he is worth keeping and if not, they move on? The new GM can then pick his coach. This would assume the new GM is given autonomy in decision making and also avoids firing a 3rd coach in 2 years. Just a thought.
BBI makes far too big a deal out of stuff like this.
If anything a new GM puts Judge under the microscope even more, if they fail to turn it around quickly Judge is gone after next year and the GM gets a fresh HC.
Any GM candidate would know this, and would also know that it in effect gives the new GM an extra year to put the pieces together before he himself is under the microscope.
There are only 32 of these jobs in the world. Nobody is turning it down because of Judge's presence.
Yes, that's my thought as well. You said it better than me. Judge can go or stay, but I don't think it impacts the new GM's plan moving forward. At all.
Who give a fuck what this organization thinks. They haven't made a correct decision in 10 years. Not a single one, and we are supposed to be on board with these buffoons' choosing a former special teams coach because he has Belichik's cell phone number who has so far demonstrated that he is over his head and out of his depth? Check.
But Judge and Jones will get one more year I think.
The problem becomes - whatever GM we hire should have a clean slate at coach and QB. More half measures.
It’s possible a new GM comes in snd still thinks Jones is good enough to be the QB here.
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When Judge was hired it was for the long term. He is young. He and his coaches are focused on teaching the game of football. The players at least thus far have bought into his old school style. Most importantly,I believe the organization sees him as one of the next great head coaches in the NFL. He learned under Saban and Belichek, who I am sure put his seal of approval on the hiring. You don't go out and hire a young and up and coming coach and not let him mature into the job. I'm fine with that. In two years he has changed the culture, is loading the team with young talent (hoping this year adds greatly) and the teaching has begun.
You do if you are a completely dysfunctional and poorly run organization that constantly sells itself on one line narratives. What flavor of Kool-Aid would you like?
Who give a fuck what this organization thinks. They haven't made a correct decision in 10 years. Not a single one, and we are supposed to be on board with these buffoons' choosing a former special teams coach because he has Belichik's cell phone number who has so far demonstrated that he is over his head and out of his depth? Check.
Your opinion means nothing ... stick to fixing parking tickets,
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It doesn't make sense to keep Judge because then the HC/GM are on different schedules...why can't they hire a GM, presumably a young guy they plan to keep for a long time? Judge gets another year to essentially prove to the new GM he is worth keeping and if not, they move on? The new GM can then pick his coach. This would assume the new GM is given autonomy in decision making and also avoids firing a 3rd coach in 2 years. Just a thought.
A big reason is that if they are on different schedules, it means they have different priorities. What happens when the next GM wants to tear things down, and trade players for future assets? The GM will be thinking long term, but Judge will want players to win right now to save his job. You want a coach and GM who have the same priorities and are on the same page
I can see that, but in this case if you look at the team needs they are similar both long and short term. You are looking at needing to add young OL and Edge help. Both would be part of a short term and long term rebuild. I think the lack of cap space will make it likely that they will need to rely a lot on the draft and not as much in FA. Also the first year, there is a lot of change within the organization for the new GM. I think sometimes there may be an advantage to seeing who from the coaching staff/FO you want to keep (if any) before getting rid of everyone and having some time to build the team around you instead of cramming all your hires in the month or so after the season ends.
My guess would be Abrams or Pioli
<sarcastic mode off>
JR? Ranaan didn’t break this, it was Rap.
So how can anyone outside of the building know how much authority the GM really has over who the HC is? Or who is the deciding vote in picking the players in the draft and free agency. It probably fluctuates based on the success or failure of the draft, free agent signings and the record of the team on the field at any given moment....
Add to this witches' brew the factor of just how bad the optics become vis á vis the clusterfeck that is the NYGiants' franchise before Mara is really moved to 'real change'. Not holding my breath.
A few have mentioned Petit as a candidate, Lordy No, no, and flat out no. He and Abrams were on the podium with DG just before or after 2021 draft: I watched Petit carefully throughout: he is a mindless man-in-a-suit Yes man, nothing more. But he nods at all the right moments, so there's that.
Now both your coach and GM answer to one person. GM does not pick the coach and the coach does not pick the GM. You hire the best people available for both positions and supervise that they are working in tandem to build a roster the way the coaches want the team to play.
But this is Mara, so none of that will happen. Gettleman will retire, Abrams will be named GM, Jedge will stay, and we will here about how losing makes everyone upset and everyone is on the hot seat next year.
The dysfunction in the front office will not be corrected until John Mara realizes he is the epicenter of that dysfunction.
All the while this just happens to be the day where Strahan's jersey is retired.
This roster is like a house that was built by someone with no knowledge of how to build a house. There's no foundation, the roof leaks, all the wrong materials were used... it's basically a big pile of useless shit. It needs to be knocked down and completely rebuilt. And this time it needs to be built according to a blueprint that's been put together by a team of architects and engineers.
That process is going to take time. Forget these past two years - they were thrown away by the owner and GM.
Either you believe Judge is the guy for a long term project or you do not. If you do, then his survival beyond 2022 can't be based on the team's record.
A comprehensive plan is needed.
This roster is like a house that was built by someone with no knowledge of how to build a house. There's no foundation, the roof leaks, all the wrong materials were used... it's basically a big pile of useless shit. It needs to be knocked down and completely rebuilt. And this time it needs to be built according to a blueprint that's been put together by a team of architects and engineers.
That process is going to take time. Forget these past two years - they were thrown away by the owner and GM.
Either you believe Judge is the guy for a long term project or you do not. If you do, then his survival beyond 2022 can't be based on the team's record.
A comprehensive plan is needed.
I can agree with that, but his game management needs to improve. They knew going in there would be a learning curve with him, but he too needs to show improvement in some areas to warrant keeping around
So managing the game is unimportant? I’m not sure I follow what you saying. What successful NFL coach is a poor game manager?
I agree that you can’t really bring in a new GM and tell the coach to win now with a completely mismanaged cap and roster. But you sure as hell should be telling him he needs to clean up the myriad of mistakes he made this year on his own.
- You need manage the clock much better than you did
- Your team (offense and defense) need to stop having so much trouble getting the right personnel on the field and lined up
- You have to stop using time outs randomly (often because of the point above)
- You have to understand basic rules of the game like ‘all scoring plays are reviewed and you can’t challenge them’
- You can’t throw away roster spots on guys who are average special teams players but can’t play offense or defense
That is all stuff that is squarely on Joe Judge, not Gettleman and this horrible roster.
The game management stuff is one of a number of factors that has to right to win in a league designed for tight margins.
It might 3rd or 4th on the list, but it’s got to be good if you intend on making and winning in the playoffs.
we all but know this is what's going to happen. and what then when it does? abrams has shown himself to be nothing more than a clueless yes-man.
will mara reach out to garrett and just hire him as HC after a sham search? ya know, bc he was a backup QB for the giants one time, decades ago?
it would be so easy to just hire a football consulting company and outsource all these decisions to real professionals. for some reason, despite the last five years of evidence to the contrary, mara continues to think he knows better.
This roster is like a house that was built by someone with no knowledge of how to build a house. There's no foundation, the roof leaks, all the wrong materials were used... it's basically a big pile of useless shit. It needs to be knocked down and completely rebuilt. And this time it needs to be built according to a blueprint that's been put together by a team of architects and engineers.
That process is going to take time. Forget these past two years - they were thrown away by the owner and GM.
Either you believe Judge is the guy for a long term project or you do not. If you do, then his survival beyond 2022 can't be based on the team's record.
A comprehensive plan is needed.
Thing is, I don't see any particular reason to keep him. If we're going to blow this thing up, blow it ALL the way up.
Though ... as long as Chris Mara still has power this team isn't blowing it ALL the way up.
It has to be a landslide of derision for the entitled, tone deaf, legacy football family that has completely lost its way due to the men in the suits. A horror show of optics. We'd think we were there.
Hiring an outside GM that is worth anything...will want his own coaching
Staff...
So right or wrong, it will be Abrams
If he's retained, start the clock over on him and write these last two years off as a Gettleman disaster.
Judge (or if he's fired, the new head coach) and the new GM should be tied at the hip - let them build their project together on the same time line. Sink or swim, they'll do it together.
Get all the oars rowing in unison for once.
why does the coach and GM being on the same timeline matter?
you have a ton of draft capital this year. drafting into a scheme matters. are you a power run team or a zone blocking team? west coast or vertical passing game? zone or press man defense? 3-4 or 4-3? you do not want to draft into judge's scheme with all these picks only to bring in a new coach who may run entirely different schemes.
if judge is on a 1 year trial run with a new GM, do you let judge pick a QB this year? what if the next coach doesn't like the QB (this could eliminate a lot of coaches from even interviewing)? or what if judge doesn't like the QB the GM picks? it's a recipe for a disaster
you cannot have the coach and GM on different timelines. you just can't. they need to be tied at the hip
If he's retained, start the clock over on him and write these last two years off as a Gettleman disaster.
Judge (or if he's fired, the new head coach) and the new GM should be tied at the hip - let them build their project together on the same time line. Sink or swim, they'll do it together.
Get all the oars rowing in unison for once.
UGH, you are starting to win me over..
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They’ve been a major part of the dysfunction and consistency in failure at multiple levels. Lack of self scouting and evaluation, lack of any fit at multiple positions that are critical to winning in today’s NFL.
I’d love to know how many besides Gettleman thought the Jones QB pick was a good move.
^this nails it.
Abrams quick shiny trial ballon left no doubt for me.
I will say too the article potentially props up Abrams, while also acknowledging they've got a ton of work to do to clean up and imo they need to start over.
and he won 11 games aided by it.
not a great argument
Everything with Mara comes down to optics. He’s obsessed with it.
I don’t want them to sell, they are good people and good for the league.
They just need to step back and get rid of the culture of nepotism and no accountability
If he's retained, start the clock over on him and write these last two years off as a Gettleman disaster.
Judge (or if he's fired, the new head coach) and the new GM should be tied at the hip - let them build their project together on the same time line. Sink or swim, they'll do it together.
Get all the oars rowing in unison for once.
Very good point, I agree with everything you said.
You are just not going to overcome that OLine. And, there are reports that he was not happy with the OC.
Can't be a bedwetter, making rash decisions.
Who is that can't miss HC prospect who will come in and right the ship? Last off season many were clamoring for Rhule.