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The Giants need to make an “in the box” hire for the GM spot

cosmicj : 11/28/2021 8:31 am
The team faces a comprehensive failure. From scouting to coaching selection to cap management to use of data to corporate culture. The next GM needs to be able to successfully make progress on all these fronts. Draft selection is only a part of the task, although an important one.

The only people qualified to do this sort of work are high level personnel in high functioning NFL front offices. The Giants should ONLY interview assistant GMs at these leading organizations, like the Ravens, 49ers, Colts, etc.

This post is about what the Giants should do, not what we predict they will do.
Giants have had the blue print for 40 years  
Lines of Scrimmage : 11/28/2021 8:40 am : link
Build a OL through commitment to the draft and hit on picks from round 3 through UDFA with a couple premium picks and smart FA acquisition. Draft big, fast and powerful front 7 players (these are your premium picks). Get a smart, tough QB who can throw from the pocket (mobile in the pocket though) With a outstanding HC (leader) and strong coordinators. Have two quality RB's who can pass block and get tough yards.

Pats have been using ours for 20 years with success.
disagree with an internal link in your argument  
Giantsfan79 : 11/28/2021 8:43 am : link
the Colts, Ravens, and 49ers don't have GMs that handle every aspect of the game like you want our next GM to. Those teams have GMs that delegate to competent subordinates, none of them pretend to try to "do it all". If that's even possible anymore.
It doesn't matter who we hire  
ron mexico : 11/28/2021 8:44 am : link
if the Giants keep running this as a family business and keep family members in all levels of power

C'mon  
PakistanPete : 11/28/2021 8:48 am : link
"The only people qualified to do this sort of work are high level personnel in high functioning NFL front offices."

Untrue. Proof exists in the MLB and in industries throughout the U.S.
It's a long hard road ahead  
M.S. : 11/28/2021 8:53 am : link

And I've been on that hike before: 1964-1980

Still got a long way to go: 2012-20??

RE: disagree with an internal link in your argument  
cosmicj : 11/28/2021 8:56 am : link
In comment 15469022 Giantsfan79 said:
Quote:
the Colts, Ravens, and 49ers don't have GMs that handle every aspect of the game like you want our next GM to. Those teams have GMs that delegate to competent subordinates, none of them pretend to try to "do it all". If that's even possible anymore.


That’s not what I am arguing so let me try to be clearer. The new GM will ideally make progress on the Giants’ numerous flaws. To do so, he will need to know what a high performing organization looks like and shape and guide the Giants towards that goal. I am definitely not suggesting a GM will singlehandedly do everything, but they need to know what high performance looks like.
RE: It doesn't matter who we hire  
Sean : 11/28/2021 8:56 am : link
In comment 15469023 ron mexico said:
Quote:
if the Giants keep running this as a family business and keep family members in all levels of power

I hate posts like this. What’s the point of following them then? If you think the situation is hopeless and it doesn’t matter what they do, why waste your time?

I fully believe bringing in a strong GM with a good personnel background can fix this. It all starts with finding the right QB. For the last half decade, the QB play has been bad, and it’s hard to win when the QB can’t elevate the roster.
PakistanPete  
cosmicj : 11/28/2021 8:58 am : link
You’re right but I don’t trust Mara to have the insight to make a hire like that. In a situation like this, he needs to look at safe, accomplished, experienced candidates.
Everyone is tired of losing  
George from PA : 11/28/2021 8:58 am : link
Several missteps since last Super Bowl

Removing Coughlin without removing Reese/Ross.

Patching for another run with Eli

Shummur's defense....(I actually liked his offense.)

Now, is current crop a mistake? Is Judge a mistake? They certainly have made mistakes that were directly responsible for loses...they have much to learn! But

Burning it down every 2 years assures staying in losing cycle
Posted this is the other thread:  
mittenedman : 11/28/2021 8:59 am : link
Take a look at Ed Dodds.
RE: Giants have had the blue print for 40 years  
BrianLeonard23 : 11/28/2021 8:59 am : link
In comment 15469020 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
Build a OL through commitment to the draft and hit on picks from round 3 through UDFA with a couple premium picks and smart FA acquisition. Draft big, fast and powerful front 7 players (these are your premium picks). Get a smart, tough QB who can throw from the pocket (mobile in the pocket though) With a outstanding HC (leader) and strong coordinators. Have two quality RB's who can pass block and get tough yards.

Pats have been using ours for 20 years with success.


The exact recipe of the Super Bowl 42 & 46 championship teams.

What the heck has happened in the last decade? The league evolves, the game changes, but all of these things have been the pillars of a successful team for 100 years.
Lines of Scrimmage  
mittenedman : 11/28/2021 9:00 am : link
That's the most maddening thing. The way the Giants have won Super Bowls works. They don't need to reinvent anything.
Of course it matters who the next General Manager is.  
NYGgolfer : 11/28/2021 9:01 am : link
To suggest the family members in the building are preventing any type of success or even improvement may sound like some type of interesting drama but it really isn't. Put a solid GM in place and things will get better.
RE: Posted this is the other thread:  
cosmicj : 11/28/2021 9:02 am : link
In comment 15469046 mittenedman said:
Quote:
Take a look at Ed Dodds.
yes, Dodds is exactly the sort of candidate who should be short listed.

I was also pleased to see that Chiefs front office guy, Ryan Poles, is being looked at, although Poles’ boss, Mike Borgonzi, might be a better candidate.
Assistant GM to GM  
GiantsRage2007 : 11/28/2021 9:04 am : link
Is still a leap of faith unfortunately.

No matter who they choose it’s a crapshoot.

Fwiw I do happen to agree with your idea. It’s way better than hiring Acorsi again to do a ‘search’ or promoting Abrams.
Great article on Dodds from The Athletic (2019)  
mittenedman : 11/28/2021 9:13 am : link
Quote:
He was pissed off, tired of all the attention they were getting, tired of hearing how good they were and how great they were gonna be. The room needed some truth, some leveling, so eight days after it ended, emotions still raw, weeks and months of grueling work ahead, the damn Patriots punching another trip to the Super Bowl on the TV screen a few feet away, Ed Dodds gathered his scouts inside a bar in Mobile, Ala., and gave it to them.

“We ain’t done shit yet,” the Colts assistant general manager told them. “We won a fucking wild-card game.”

You don’t get trophies for AFC wild-card games, and Dodds didn’t come to Indianapolis to win wild-card games. But two years in, anyone could see: the rebuild was working. The Colts had flipped 4-12 into 10-6, won a playoff game and had a roster stocked with young talent. The pundits couldn’t help but praise. The Colts were coming. Soon.

But Dodds didn’t wanna hear it, and didn’t want his scouts thinking it. If there’s anything that scares the hell out of him, it’s complacency. He fears it. Fights it. To him it just felt like it needed to be said, then and there, the night before they went to work at the Senior Bowl in late January...


Link - ( New Window )
I'm probably not being objective  
arniefez : 11/28/2021 9:27 am : link
but I think if the Giants improve the OL and their pass rush they could make a big jump in the standings even with a QB who is at best average.

If I had a vote I'd look for someone who has been a GM before. I know that means hiring someone who was probably fired for cause but I think the Giants need an experienced NFL executive with enough thick skin to deal with the dysfunction that is the Giants front office.

I heard Chris on Giants Insider endorse Scott Pioli. I wouldn't mind that choice at all. He had great success as part of the Belichick team in Chris Mara's current role. He flamed out as GM in KC. But the Giants GM and his role in KC are not the same job description. He's 56 years old. That's 14 years younger than the current Giants GM and he seems to have the temperament (at least publicly) that could work with the Mara brothers. Of course the fact that he's Bill Parcells son in law and maybe the Giants could tap into some of that 80 year old wisdom to mentor their young HC among others wouldn't hurt either.

I know I'll be in a tiny minority but that's my choice for next GM. This comes from the person who wanted Charlie Weis over Tom Coughlin in 2004. So take it for whatever it's worth.

Whoever the choice is, in my opinion, he can't be worse than the the GM the past 4 years.
The issue is ownership.  
LauderdaleMatty : 11/28/2021 9:30 am : link
As evidenced by Garret being forced into Judge. What they need is a qualified candidate who doesn't have the two morons w the last name Mara influencing decisions that screw the team up.


Yeah. They have a 50 year history of screwing this team up going back to the late 60s and had to be saved by Pete Rozelle. Well good luck to the next GM. The Mara's will do their best to make sure this Franchise sucks. That's the only thing we can be sure on. They've made it their missions since the last Super Bowl
Many focus on Jones and SB picks but let's take  
Lines of Scrimmage : 11/28/2021 9:32 am : link
a look at three other picks. WH, Baker and Peart. Imagine WH and Baker performing to what you should have had where they were selected and Peart is a average RT. Don't forget they gave up picks to select Baker that could have been used on another OL or front 7 guy in round 3. Instead they had to lay out big money for a corner.

Next to preparation a common staple of football is execution. Giants are not executing in the draft.
RE: RE: It doesn't matter who we hire  
ajr2456 : 11/28/2021 9:48 am : link
In comment 15469037 Sean said:
Quote:
In comment 15469023 ron mexico said:


Quote:


if the Giants keep running this as a family business and keep family members in all levels of power



I hate posts like this. What’s the point of following them then? If you think the situation is hopeless and it doesn’t matter what they do, why waste your time?

I fully believe bringing in a strong GM with a good personnel background can fix this. It all starts with finding the right QB. For the last half decade, the QB play has been bad, and it’s hard to win when the QB can’t elevate the roster.


Because 1) it’s true, and 2) people are giants fans and want them to be better
Agreed...  
Breeze_94 : 11/28/2021 10:11 am : link
If you are keeping Judge, that’s fine. I’m not quite ready to say JJ is not the answer.

But Abrams being elevated would really annoy me because it is exactly what has been wrong with this organization for the past 10 years.

What they are doing is not working.

Best case of keeping Judge...an outside the org hire who makes all personnel decisions and uses 2022 to evaluate the coaching staff, Jones, etc.
That is a reasonable take  
Mike from Ohio : 11/28/2021 10:48 am : link
When an organization is floundering, it is sometimes helpful to stablilize it with someone coming in from a successful organization who can put a convergent structure in place.

There is a lot of talk about whether the GM works for the coach or the coach for the GM, and that model does vary around the league. But I think it is safe to assume that John Mara still believes in the latter. He values tradition over innovation. A GM hired from a successful organization who is given sufficient leeway to change how things are done would certainly be a step in the right direction.
The fallacy in the argument on this thread is  
Dave on the UWS : 11/28/2021 10:50 am : link
"hire a STRONG GM". Since its a family business, and the Mara's meddle, they will only hire someone they are comfortable with (ie. business as usual). They will NOT hire someone who will tell them "get out of the way, remove yourself and let the professionals do their job". That's not the "Giants Way". Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves.
RE: RE: It doesn't matter who we hire  
ron mexico : 11/28/2021 11:00 am : link
In comment 15469037 Sean said:
Quote:
In comment 15469023 ron mexico said:


Quote:


if the Giants keep running this as a family business and keep family members in all levels of power



I hate posts like this. What’s the point of following them then? If you think the situation is hopeless and it doesn’t matter what they do, why waste your time?

I fully believe bringing in a strong GM with a good personnel background can fix this. It all starts with finding the right QB. For the last half decade, the QB play has been bad, and it’s hard to win when the QB can’t elevate the roster.


Because with enough pressure anything can happen.

You combine fan discussion with media coverage and the shit show of results on the field and something has to give.

You think the Tischs or the silent mara brothers and sisters are happy with whats going on? And it HAS to be hitting their pocketbook somewhat. I mean all these fired coaches they are paying gotta cut into some dividend checks.

The 49ers and Colts  
Vanzetti : 11/28/2021 11:01 am : link
Are leading organizations?

The Patriots are the most successful organization but all their guys have flubbed elsewhere.

I think the Giants organizations problems start at the top. Hiring a few guys is not going to fix that.

The 49ers and Colts are stuffed with talent  
cosmicj : 11/28/2021 11:03 am : link
And make intelligent roster decisions routinely. In any case, substitute another team, Rams, Bills, whatever.
 
christian : 11/28/2021 11:17 am : link
The Giants operated perfectly well with Reese, Gettleman, and Coughlin in charge. With qualified professionals in the right seats the Giants will be fine.
RE: Posted this is the other thread:  
japanhead : 11/28/2021 11:17 am : link
In comment 15469046 mittenedman said:
Quote:
Take a look at Ed Dodds.


didn't dodds turn down a GM interview for the browns job, and pull out of another GM search he was going to be interviewed for?

i agree it doesn't hurt to look into it, but i seriously doubt a guy like dodds would want to come into an organizational structure like the giants have. seems dysfunctional, and the exact type of situation that experienced successful executives would want to stay far away from.
RE: Agreed...  
Chocco : 11/28/2021 11:18 am : link
In comment 15469143 Breeze_94 said:
Quote:
If you are keeping Judge, that’s fine. I’m not quite ready to say JJ is not the answer.

But Abrams being elevated would really annoy me because it is exactly what has been wrong with this organization for the past 10 years.

What they are doing is not working.

Best case of keeping Judge...an outside the org hire who makes all personnel decisions and uses 2022 to evaluate the coaching staff, Jones, etc.
yep plus front office and scouting depts. I would love to have someone with enough clout to challenge Mara if he finds he is the problem
RE: …  
ron mexico : 11/28/2021 11:19 am : link
In comment 15469223 christian said:
Quote:
The Giants operated perfectly well with Reese, Gettleman, and Coughlin in charge. With qualified professionals in the right seats the Giants will be fine.


They had a pocket of about 5 years where they were competent, and rode Eli's magic carpet to 2 chips

And there were quite a few stumbles during that stretch too
RE: …  
japanhead : 11/28/2021 11:23 am : link
In comment 15469223 christian said:
Quote:
The Giants operated perfectly well with Reese, Gettleman, and Coughlin in charge. With qualified professionals in the right seats the Giants will be fine.


this strikes me as an overly generous interpretation and is not exactly true from my vantage.

the giants drafts seemed to start spiraling as soon as ross came aboard. coughlin was reluctant to play reese draft pick specials like jernell jernigan and ramses barden. there was definitely tension there.

the team that won the second superbowl in 2011-12 was running on fumes. thankfully drafting JPP and a few wise FA signings (canty/boley) was enough to put them over the top that year. but i am not really sure that reese ever liked eli even though he should get most of the credit for that second SB run.
 
christian : 11/28/2021 11:28 am : link
The Giants didn’t have a losing season for eight straight years between 2005 and 2012.

Not too different from the nine year stretch the Giants had from 1983-1991 where the only losing season they had was the strike year.

The Giants success and the Mara’s involvement is directly proportionate to the qualification of the front office and coaching staff.m

I don’t think the Maras are sitting their itching to get involved. When they fuck up the hires, then they get their noses in it.
so they have had two pockets of success in the SB era  
ron mexico : 11/28/2021 11:32 am : link
2.5 if you count the Fassel years.

Its great that we got 4 trophies out of it, but I don't think you can hang your hat on that ownership model.

If the Mara's aren't itching to get involved  
ron mexico : 11/28/2021 11:35 am : link
why to they keep hiring and promoting family members/owners in the personnel department?

here is a quote from Judge's into presser, mara said something similar but I cant find it now


"It's a family business for our ownership and it's a family business for myself. My children have all been born in this business. Knowing that your passion is football, that your desire to win is what you truly love and that benefits your family and you're representing something bigger than yourself."
RE: RE: …  
christian : 11/28/2021 11:42 am : link
In comment 15469230 japanhead said:
Quote:
In comment 15469223 christian said:


Quote:


The Giants operated perfectly well with Reese, Gettleman, and Coughlin in charge. With qualified professionals in the right seats the Giants will be fine.



this strikes me as an overly generous interpretation and is not exactly true from my vantage.

the giants drafts seemed to start spiraling as soon as ross came aboard.


Ross joined the Giants in 2007 and was described as running the drafts from 2008 forward.

The Giants drafted an number of significant contributors to the 2011 championship teams in 08. 09, and 10.

I’m not defending the long term quality of work any of those guys did beyond the 2012 season. They did a good job for a period of time, and they didn’t.

The issue isn’t what Ross, Reese, Coughlin, and Gettleman did. It’s what the next cast of characters didn’t do.
That cast of characters includes  
ron mexico : 11/28/2021 12:19 pm : link
Chris Mara and Tim McDonough in an ever increasing role

Coaches and other FO staff come and go but they remain and get promoted

Said it before and will continue to...  
Jimmy Googs : 11/28/2021 12:27 pm : link
Find a competent GM that is a good evaluator of talent and the family issues will get in line or become irrelevant.
The new GM needs to have a long leash  
Dave in PA : 11/28/2021 12:31 pm : link
It’s going to be crappy timing as is with Judge only two years into his contract and Jones a likely failure but with enough excuses and question marks that he can’t really be jettisoned prior to his rookie deal ending. Assuming judge and Jones are retained, it may very well only be for one more year, after which the new GM going into year 2 has to start the complete reboot process. It’s a really undesirable job for anyone competent enough to actually handle it.
Normally I would agree  
arniefez : 11/28/2021 5:10 pm : link
but because of the free agent frenzy before this year there's not much that can be done to the top of the roster in 2022 anyway. In 2023 the situation is completely different. Even though there would be some dead money all of the big contracts can be cut before the 2023 season with tremendous cap savings.

2022 would let a new GM see what he has in both coaches and players and then go from there.
The Giants did that already  
Debaser : 11/28/2021 6:33 pm : link
Gettle was Ern's assisstant in the 90s when he built great teams.

It is like saying we should hire a coach bellichek assitant. oh wait we did that too. "assistants" to great football executives doesn't mean jack shit. They ware "assistants " for a reason.
Debaser  
cosmicj : 11/28/2021 7:22 pm : link
I’d say that Gettleman was the only qualified candidate in the short list gathered for the 2018 search. If the list was properly assembled, he would have been compared against 3-4 other experts with significant experience within an excellent organization. And given his age and decent but not great track record in Carolina, he probably wouldn’t have been offered the job.

So I’d say that if the criteria I laid out had been used in the last search, the Giants would have made a much better GM hire with very different and better results.
RE: That is a reasonable take  
FStubbs : 11/28/2021 7:27 pm : link
In comment 15469193 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
When an organization is floundering, it is sometimes helpful to stablilize it with someone coming in from a successful organization who can put a convergent structure in place.

There is a lot of talk about whether the GM works for the coach or the coach for the GM, and that model does vary around the league. But I think it is safe to assume that John Mara still believes in the latter. He values tradition over innovation. A GM hired from a successful organization who is given sufficient leeway to change how things are done would certainly be a step in the right direction.


John Mara doesn't believe in that model and the Giants haven't had that model since maybe 1997.

The HC and GM both report to the owner(s) in this organization.
RE: That cast of characters includes  
FStubbs : 11/28/2021 7:32 pm : link
In comment 15469301 ron mexico said:
Quote:
Chris Mara and Tim McDonough in an ever increasing role

Coaches and other FO staff come and go but they remain and get promoted


Part of me thinks it might actually be best for the long run (next 20-30 years) if they just got it overwith and handed it to Tim McDonnell and watched him fail until the media crushed him.
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