As always, my non-emotional thoughts from yesterday’s game. Feel free to add your own, comment on mine etc…
A win is a win and a win over the Eagles is always just a little bit better… As ugly as it was, we did just enough to win the game and keep us fans from jumping of a bridge for another week.
Offense:
Obviously, a focal point with the firing of Jason Garrett and Freddie Kitchens (allegedly) calling plays. My disclaimer is that we’re going to have to give it a few weeks of Freddie in charge before we see any real difference. Yes, he’s calling plays, but he’s calling the plays from Garrett’s book in Garrett’s system with Garrett’s plays but there were some subtle differences with a new play caller.
- Jones turned in another mediocre game. As has become a theme its difficult to evaluate him in these situations. He didn’t do anything special and at no point did you think “wow, Jones is playing great” but again the offensive line played horrible and limited what he can do. I’m tired of writing this week in and week out…
- The offensive line embodies the “I’m tired of writing this over and over again”. 1 good player (Thomas) and the rest are back ups at best. The group paved the way for 27 rushes for 70 yards which is bad enough but worse when you factor 32 came on one carry… They were bad yesterday, even for them
- Golladay got the targets he’s been asking for and, in my opinion, had a very mediocre game. He had a chance at a couple 50/50 balls he was paid a lot of money to catch but didn’t. I do think you can make an argument that PI should have been called on the deep attempt in the end zone to him in Q1, but it wasn’t so moot point
- On that topic I’d call that out as a subtle difference in play calling from Garrett to Kitchens. I don’t think Garrett takes that shot on 3rd down. Even though we didn’t convert I’d prefer to see the Giants do this more. For 1 if the defenses know you’ll take this shot it opens the field up, but also, we stink in the red zone. Maybe taking shots at the big play between the 20-35 isn’t a bad idea saying our goal line offense is so bad
- This week we did convert our only real red zone opportunity, so I don’t want to let that go. I have a couple comments on that as well
- First, I’d like to see us stop throwing fades. Jones does not throw a good fade at all and we haven’t converted one all year. Move on from it
- Second, I thought the 3rd down call and following TD were good play calls. On the 3rd down they effectively isolated Engram on his guy and gave him an opportunity to box out. You’re hoping for 1 of 2 results there, a TD or a PI allowing you to get 3 more shots at it. The PI is a successful result in that situation
- On the TD Myarick almost dropped the ball but the team did a good job of selling the play. Jones was on time with the throw too which is relevant because he’s frequently late in these situations
- Question I’d like to ask. Why isn’t John Ross seeing more action? Only 11 snaps but had 2 catches and seems to have good things happen when the ball goes his way
- Other question, why go to Pharoh Cooper, who’s only been here a few weeks and is a career returner, on a crucial 3rd down?
Defense:
The Eagles run a very odd offense for the NFL. Their QB embodies the “college but not NFL talent” image of the good runner whose arm is good enough in the NCAA but not the NFL. For all of you who have asked about Toney playing some QB Hurts may be a good comp, Toney may have a better arm. I don’t expect to see Hurts have a long career at QB and expect to see them make a move to replace him next year. Either way, holding a team to 7 points is always pretty damn good in the NFL
- Starting with the bad which was slightly referenced above, 33 carries for 208 yards. EVERYONE on the Eagles ran the ball well against us and their OLine paved the way by really pushing around our defense. The weakness against the run is an alarming trend. Yes, they’re one of the NFL’s better running teams but this has been happening over and over again to us
- We’re lucky Hurts can't throw well, and our saving grace was giving him what he does well but punishing for what he doesn’t and forcing 3 INTs while keeping him under 50% as a passer
- McKinney is really growing up this season. I’m hoping this isn’t a flash in the pan and is instead more indicative of what he’ll be for his whole career
- I’ve given some assistants credit in the past for things that they don’t get recognized for, today I’m doing that for Jerome Henderson. Looking at the passing stats above is one thing, then consider that Ryan wasn’t playing, and Jackson went out early. Our secondary at the end of the game had names like JR Reed and Steven Parker playing. Good job from Jerome to get these guys ready to play
- Elaborating on that I’d like to point out that Aaron Robinson played rather well yesterday for a kid that didn’t even start practicing until a few weeks ago. Perfect? No, but there may be something there with this kid. Keep in mind he had no OTA’s, no training camp and CB is a notoriously slow position to develop. He’s also bigger than I realized he is
- Pass rush, not much from them. I will concede that I think keeping Hurts in the pocket was the priority here. He doesn’t throw the ball well and can be forced into mistakes, so I think the strategy was to let him throw
- Danny Shelton sucks. He only played a few snaps but is noticeably blow off the ball whenever he’s in. He needs to be looked at in the same light as Nate Solder in my opinion, at least he’s cheaper…
Closing thoughts: I’m interested to see what this offense looks like in the last 2-3 games once you’ve actually given Kitchens time to put his stuff in the playbook. As far as I’m concerned, he’s only auditioning and there is 0 reason we shouldn’t look outside the organization for a new OC next year. As far as next week goes, Miami is an odd team. They’re a little like the Giants where you don’t know what you’re getting week to week. This is a winnable game but let’s be real, we haven’t played well enough to say “we’re going to win” against anyone. Hopefully the defense plays another strong game, and the offense improves in week 2 of the new OC.
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My reply to you was directly in response to your claim that he "cannot be evaluated".
You said that, not me.
Others here pointed out they were tired of hearing it.
Now you say you either don't mean it or I don't understand what you mean, or I don't understand your clarification.
We have spent too much time as a team and a fanbase with faux balance, and pretend objectivity. It's time to say what we see. We don't owe Jones anything. The Giants made him a multimillionaire. He owes us great play. He is not great. He is not good. And after 37 starts I think one can make an evaluation.
Perhaps when you said "cannot make an evaluation" you didn't make your point clearly. But "cannot make an evaluation" means not sure if Jones can still be good. So if that's how you feel, I will say you are wrong. Jones can't be good.
Would using the phrase "Not ready to make a final decision and move on" work better?
My issue with moving on with him right this second is 2 fold:
First - When he was in Shurmur's offense the narrative was "If he stopped fumbling he'd be good". He did cut down massively on the fumbles and turnovers as a whole. His issue now is that he doesn't put the ball in the end zone, but we've seen he can do it. So this puts the thought in my head that in the right system he can produce.
Second - I'm 100% of the mindset that if you're going to bring in a young QB through the draft you want to do everything you can to get him in a good situation as fast as possible. This means right coordinator, offensive weapons and capable offensive line. Right now we for sure don't have 2 of the 3 and the third (weapons) can even be questioned. I'd rather fix the situation first, see if Jones improves at which point we don't need to take a QB, but if Jones doesn't improve we now bring the new QB into a situation where he can succeed.
I've very mindful that you can ruin a young QB in this league very easily because we've seen the same teams do it over and over again through the past 25 years. It also should remind us how blessed we were to have Eli. Either way, I think its the best long term approach for this team to be patient (not beyond 1 more year) with Jones and focus on fixing the situation around him as it will transfer to the next guy if you don't.
1. The problem with this analysis is that Shurmur is an expert at designing an offense that is dumbed down for novice QBs to succeed for a short period of time. He did what Cosell suggested you need to do with Jones when he came out, tightly scripted with precise and defined reads. Shurmur did exactly this with Keenum to even better effect in Minny. Do you see GMs stumbling over themselves to add Keenum? No, Keenum isn't really good, and you can't keep defining reads forever for a QB. At some point he has to learn.
Secondly, It is true that Jones reduced the turnovers, but that was a direct result of Judge and Garrett reducing the offense, in year 2, and make it simpler for Jones to stop turning the ball over. Never mind that having to dumb down the offense in year 2 is an indictment of the player, the result of this is Jones could no longer move the offense and the Giants stopped being productive. This is common. Conservative QBs in conservative schemes, who are scared to turn the ball over, don't put up points. This is totally predictable. Jones has NEVER demonstrated that he is able to be productive without making mistakes and turning the ball over. NEVER. This is the mark of a scared and poor QB.
2. Forget situation. Think of talent. Jones doesn't have it. Bring in a talented QB, for whom the game is slow, and who processes quickly. And good arm talent wouldn't hurt either. Jones has neither.
The *you can ruin a QB* mantra is a truism. There is no data to support it. It's just a lazy argument people make. Good QBs succeed. Bad ones don't and people find excuses for them. Nobody got ruined. They were bad to start with and could never overcome their lack of talent.
We can't wait forever for Jones. It's stupid to wait while other teams who were just as bad as us, or worse, have quick turnarounds. The QB is the most important piece and you can wait forever for a bad QB to become good.
Each year that goes by the lower are the probabilities that Jones can be good. At this stage it is foolish to wait for Jones to turn around. It is an exceedingly low probability event. You don't bank the fortunes of a billion dollar sports enterprise on such a low probability event, something in the neighborhood of less than 5%, if I were to hazard a guess.
Since when have these numbers become nothing special?
Those numbers would have been mediocre even when it was hard to throw the football in the NFL, which hasn't been true for years.
63% completions, 6.7 Y/A, 1 TD. Those numbers are the very definition of the words "not special".
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...an OC who pushed a back up's mentality of "don't lose the game for your team" on him.
Maybe that OC pushed that mentality because he realized his starting QB had a back up's talent?
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With that being said we've also watched Ryan Tannehill go from a complete bust to QB'ing one of the best offenses in the NFL. What changed? The situation.
I think people should look at Tannehill's career stats before confirming he was a bust in Miami. In years 2-4, he averaged 4,200 yards and 25 TD's. As I've said many times, if Jones had those kind of stats, many BBIers would be sewing him a yellow jacket.
Tannehill in Miami was almost the perfect case of why stats are a terrible indicator in todays NFL. Youre right, those numbers look great. But there wasnt a SINGLE Dolphin fan who felt great about him. And no one ever feared him in a game. Kirk Cousins is another prime example of this. Cousins has 23 TDS and 3 INTS this year. And his team stinks. They always stink.
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In comment 15472639 Producer said:
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My reply to you was directly in response to your claim that he "cannot be evaluated".
You said that, not me.
Others here pointed out they were tired of hearing it.
Now you say you either don't mean it or I don't understand what you mean, or I don't understand your clarification.
We have spent too much time as a team and a fanbase with faux balance, and pretend objectivity. It's time to say what we see. We don't owe Jones anything. The Giants made him a multimillionaire. He owes us great play. He is not great. He is not good. And after 37 starts I think one can make an evaluation.
Perhaps when you said "cannot make an evaluation" you didn't make your point clearly. But "cannot make an evaluation" means not sure if Jones can still be good. So if that's how you feel, I will say you are wrong. Jones can't be good.
Would using the phrase "Not ready to make a final decision and move on" work better?
My issue with moving on with him right this second is 2 fold:
First - When he was in Shurmur's offense the narrative was "If he stopped fumbling he'd be good". He did cut down massively on the fumbles and turnovers as a whole. His issue now is that he doesn't put the ball in the end zone, but we've seen he can do it. So this puts the thought in my head that in the right system he can produce.
Second - I'm 100% of the mindset that if you're going to bring in a young QB through the draft you want to do everything you can to get him in a good situation as fast as possible. This means right coordinator, offensive weapons and capable offensive line. Right now we for sure don't have 2 of the 3 and the third (weapons) can even be questioned. I'd rather fix the situation first, see if Jones improves at which point we don't need to take a QB, but if Jones doesn't improve we now bring the new QB into a situation where he can succeed.
I've very mindful that you can ruin a young QB in this league very easily because we've seen the same teams do it over and over again through the past 25 years. It also should remind us how blessed we were to have Eli. Either way, I think its the best long term approach for this team to be patient (not beyond 1 more year) with Jones and focus on fixing the situation around him as it will transfer to the next guy if you don't.
1. The problem with this analysis is that Shurmur is an expert at designing an offense that is dumbed down for novice QBs to succeed for a short period of time. He did what Cosell suggested you need to do with Jones when he came out, tightly scripted with precise and defined reads. Shurmur did exactly this with Keenum to even better effect in Minny. Do you see GMs stumbling over themselves to add Keenum? No, Keenum isn't really good, and you can't keep defining reads forever for a QB. At some point he has to learn.
Secondly, It is true that Jones reduced the turnovers, but that was a direct result of Judge and Garrett reducing the offense, in year 2, and make it simpler for Jones to stop turning the ball over. Never mind that having to dumb down the offense in year 2 is an indictment of the player, the result of this is Jones could no longer move the offense and the Giants stopped being productive. This is common. Conservative QBs in conservative schemes, who are scared to turn the ball over, don't put up points. This is totally predictable. Jones has NEVER demonstrated that he is able to be productive without making mistakes and turning the ball over. NEVER. This is the mark of a scared and poor QB.
2. Forget situation. Think of talent. Jones doesn't have it. Bring in a talented QB, for whom the game is slow, and who processes quickly. And good arm talent wouldn't hurt either. Jones has neither.
The *you can ruin a QB* mantra is a truism. There is no data to support it. It's just a lazy argument people make. Good QBs succeed. Bad ones don't and people find excuses for them. Nobody got ruined. They were bad to start with and could never overcome their lack of talent.
We can't wait forever for Jones. It's stupid to wait while other teams who were just as bad as us, or worse, have quick turnarounds. The QB is the most important piece and you can wait forever for a bad QB to become good.
Each year that goes by the lower are the probabilities that Jones can be good. At this stage it is foolish to wait for Jones to turn around. It is an exceedingly low probability event. You don't bank the fortunes of a billion dollar sports enterprise on such a low probability event, something in the neighborhood of less than 5%, if I were to hazard a guess.
I get it, you hate kid and won’t accept any other answer.
To your point about Shurmur’s offense, do you think thats the only one in the NFL that Jones would be more successful in than Garrett’s? Because it isn’t, there are a lot of offensive coordinators in this league that base their offense around creating separation for their receivers, use motion to free up the intended targets and create easy reads for the QB. Shurmur is a GOOD offensive coordinator but he’s not genius or guru.
To your points about the situation, I respectfully disagree about being able to ruin a QB being a lazy argument. Are there a few guys that are so good that they’ll excel anywhere? Yes, but guess what, if we’re counting on one of those to walk through the door we may be waiting forever like the Jets…. And on the “waiting” aspect, there is WAY more to a turnaround than just the QB. Whether we like it or not our organization again put us in a situation where we’re digging out of a hole talent wise.
I get the frustration on that last point and its 100% warranted by every single Giants fan. Like it or not this roster isn’t much better than the one Dave Gettleman inherited in year one.
I just see a very bad NFL QB.
And both the numbers and eye test back me up.
As much as I love him like a son, do you remember those great Eli fade throws?
Me neither.
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and that doesn't tell you something about his basic skill set and development?
As much as I love him like a son, do you remember those great Eli fade throws?
Me neither.
You can't remember even one good fade throw by Eli? Really? Not a one?
I just see a very bad NFL QB.
And both the numbers and eye test back me up.
There is a difference. Darnold is a bad NFL QB. Jones is mediocre.
The "same teams" usually aren't the same teams. They're the same team name. The coaching staffs/players are usually completely different.
It's harder to program a computer to throw a fade route, because the receiver isn't there yet, and you have to consider where the defender is. You can't really pre-program the correct location and trajectory.
Similarly, you could program a computer to look at read #1 and read #2 and throw the ball to the open one.
It's much harder to program a computer to go off-script based on a matchup on skip the first read. Or to slide in the pocket and open an angle to make a throw. Or to succeed in any type of scramble situation.
Jones is decent at the things that can be programed and bad at the things that can't.
It is obvious that Jones is not the athlete to do it on his own. Many have invented a miraculous ticking clock to judge Jones, but that clock is a function of the CBA rules, not of Giants team building.
I would not be willing to go all in on Jones, he is not a natural, but this is not the year to start all over at that position.
yes, agreed.