I put this together for a reply in the Terps callout thread, but realize that many people may be avoiding what they assume is just a callout thread.
In any case, as we've gone through the litany of explanations for DJ's inconsistent and/or middling performances, it seems that the only one that really remains active is that DJ is hampered by what many fans want to describe as the worst OL in football.
There are a number of metrics that can be used to track OL play, particularly as it relates to the passing game. Here are a few that I'm looking at:
1) Sacks per game (since we're still in the middle of bye weeks, not every team has played the same amount of games, so per game average is more fair)
2) Sack percentage (this does not need to be altered since it is already adjusted for pass attempts)
3) Pressures per game
4) Pressure percentage
5) Hurries per game
6) Hits per game
7) Average pocket time
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SACKS PER GAME
1. Vikings (1.36)
2. Buccaneers (1.36)
3. Rams (1.55)
.
.
.
16. Giants (2.09)
.
.
.
30. Ravens (3.27)
31. Seahawks (3.30)
32. Bears (3.36)
SACK PERCENTAGE
1. Buccaneers (3.1%)
2. Vikings (3.5%)
3. Bills (3.9%)
.
.
.
14. Giants (5.6%)
.
.
.
30. Browns (8.6%)
31. Seahawks (10.3%)
32. Bears (10.7%)
PRESSURES PER GAME
1. Rams (4.8)
2. Buccaneers (5.1)
3. Patriots (6.3)
.
.
.
19. Giants (8.8)
.
.
.
30. Vikings (10.3)
31. Jets (10.4)
32. Broncos (10.5)
PRESSURE PERCENTAGE
1. Buccaneers (11.5%)
2. Rams (12.3%)
3. Steelers (16.4%)
.
.
.
16. Giants (22.1%)
.
.
.
30. Panthers (26.2%)
31. Seahawks (27.2%)
32. Broncos (28.4%)
HURRIES PER GAME
1. Patriots (1.25)
2. Rams (1.27)
3. Titans (1.33)
.
.
.
16. Giants (3.45)
.
.
.
30. Broncos (4.54)
31. Bills (4.73)
32. Vikings (4.91)
HITS PER GAME
1. Browns (1.42)
2. Cardinals (1.45)
3. Buccaneers (1.73)
.
.
.
21. Giants (3.27)
.
.
.
30. Vikings (4.00)
31. Colts (4.58)
32. Falcons (5.09)
AVERAGE POCKET TIME (in seconds)
1. Washington (2.5)
2. Eagles (2.4)
3. Seahawks (2.4)
.
.
.
13. Giants (2.2)
.
.
.
30. Texans (2.0)
31. Packers (2.0)
32. Steelers (1.9)
--------------------
If the Giants have the worst OL in football, and if DJ is being so hampered by their poor play, shouldn't the Giants be the worst in the league in at least one of these categories?
The numbers say that they're middle of the pack across the board when it comes to pass protection.
all stats drawn from pro-football-reference.
Link - (
New Window )
Yesterday alone, Barkley is hit behind the LOS on almost every run. Teams for weeks have been able to rush 3 and pressure the QB
This OL can’t run block and can’t pass block
Did anyone say it wasn’t a problem?
i'd honestly like to see jones and barkley replaced with glennon and booker. i don't think you'd see any drop-off in offensive production and would likely see an uptick.
There’s a lot of hyperbole that the Giants have the worst pass blocking and the worst run blocking.
I think the Giants have a bad line, but not the worst. They aren’t in the area of the Bears or Seahawks. Those are teams who basically cannot run their offense because of the constant pressure on the QB.
What the Giants do suffer from, and what really is noticeable, is the number of individual breakdowns that lead to big losses.
Next?
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not sure how any Giants fan who actually watches these games cannot come away saying the OL is a problem.
Did anyone say it wasn’t a problem?
Ummmmm
i'd honestly like to see jones and barkley replaced with glennon and booker. i don't think you'd see any drop-off in offensive production and would likely see an uptick.
I do not think that sentiment is even close to held by "most of you" Sometimes I wonder how many people come n this site that do not really watch the games.
Problem? Absolutely.
Historically bad OL as some fans have described it? We don't even have the worst OL in the NFL this season when it comes to pass pro.
The OL isn't doing DJ any favors, but other QBs are doing more with less when it comes to their OLs.
Garrett cut the balls off the offense
so imo the NYG line play even this year is closer to league average than most fans realize.
but league average is bad. below average is unplayable. and a handful of teams at the top have a huge advantage over everyone else.
not signing Callahan when he was available was the organizations biggest mistake this half decade and possibly full decade.
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In comment 15472079 Eric from BBI said:
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not sure how any Giants fan who actually watches these games cannot come away saying the OL is a problem.
Did anyone say it wasn’t a problem?
Ummmmm
Gatorade Dunk didn’t say it wasn’t a problem. He said that it’s not as bad as it’s being made out to be by the Jones excuse makers
Along with an O-line problem.
Anecdotally I watched the Dallas v Raiders game and the Raiders OL looked every bit as bad as ours, but Carr really moves around well and found receivers open deep. The one difference is they could run the ball... maybe it was the OL or maybe it was their RB vs Barkely, idk... maybe a bit of both?
I would say our OL play is an issue, it's no myth.
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not sure how any Giants fan who actually watches these games cannot come away saying the OL is a problem.
Problem? Absolutely.
Historically bad OL as some fans have described it? We don't even have the worst OL in the NFL this season when it comes to pass pro.
The OL isn't doing DJ any favors, but other QBs are doing more with less when it comes to their OLs.
OK who? It's not Wilson, Fields or Dalton.
This skews all these stats and helps to band aid the reality which is our offensive line has routinely played horrible all season.
Along with an O-line problem.
because two things cannot be true at the same time...per the BBI rulebook.
The offensive line can't run block. Full stop. And you can't divorce the pass game from the run game. They are synergistic and integrally woven into one another.
How miserable is the Giants offensive line?
26th in rushing yards per game (90.8)
27th in rushing yards per attempt (3.9)
28th in rushing TDs (7)
28th in time of possession (28:54)
29th in rushing first downs (54)
If this hot mess of a unit isn't re-built from the ground up, neither the QB, RB or WR positions will ever come close to reaching their full potential.
And neither will our defense.
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In comment 15472079 Eric from BBI said:
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not sure how any Giants fan who actually watches these games cannot come away saying the OL is a problem.
Did anyone say it wasn’t a problem?
Ummmmm
Eric, I think you're interpreting my post as saying that the OL is just fine and dandy, no problems, nothing to see here.
That's not my point at all, and I apologize for not being clearer about that.
I do think the OL is bad. It's a problem. It's just not even the worst in football this year (and it's not even close to the worst, honestly) let alone historically bad. Said another way, if other QBs are producing behind OLs that are worse than ours, it ceases to be an excuse for a QB who will average less than one passing TD per game over a full two season stretch.
I do think those statistics show how overly conservative they have been in protecting the OL and Jones though. Instead of challenging their young players they seem content to avoid big mistakes at all costs and hope the defense can keep it competitive in the 4th quarter.
More to this point, as I said in another thread, these stats have to be looked in with the context. The Giants obviously gameplan around this. They make Jones get rid of the ball almost immediately. There are few, if any, five-seven step drops. Very little stepping up in the pocket and no run game to keep the defense honest.
But nobody who has even a rudimentary understanding of football can watch the Giants and think that blocking (at any level, inside, outside, second level) is something that is middle of the pack in this league. It is just not.
I don't know how the Giants aren't at that point with Daniel Jones.
Players just don't come back from where he is now in the same organization.
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In comment 15472087 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 15472079 Eric from BBI said:
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not sure how any Giants fan who actually watches these games cannot come away saying the OL is a problem.
Did anyone say it wasn’t a problem?
Ummmmm
Eric, I think you're interpreting my post as saying that the OL is just fine and dandy, no problems, nothing to see here.
That's not my point at all, and I apologize for not being clearer about that.
I do think the OL is bad. It's a problem. It's just not even the worst in football this year (and it's not even close to the worst, honestly) let alone historically bad. Said another way, if other QBs are producing behind OLs that are worse than ours, it ceases to be an excuse for a QB who will average less than one passing TD per game over a full two season stretch.
I understand, but are you also factoring in running game productivity by those teams as well as the number of games missed by those teams' primary pass receivers?
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can watch the Giants play and think the Giants don't have a QB problem....
Along with an O-line problem.
because two things cannot be true at the same time...per the BBI rulebook.
My bad - I forgot.
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not sure how any Giants fan who actually watches these games cannot come away saying the OL is a problem.
More to this point, as I said in another thread, these stats have to be looked in with the context. The Giants obviously gameplan around this. They make Jones get rid of the ball almost immediately. There are few, if any, five-seven step drops. Very little stepping up in the pocket and no run game to keep the defense honest.
But nobody who has even a rudimentary understanding of football can watch the Giants and think that blocking (at any level, inside, outside, second level) is something that is middle of the pack in this league. It is just not.
And you think other teams with bad O-lines don't try to scheme around that?
O line play around the leauge isn't great in the modern game so the bar is low, the Giants can't reach that bar yet
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not sure how any Giants fan who actually watches these games cannot come away saying the OL is a problem.
Did anyone say it wasn’t a problem?
Gatorade Dunk believes it's only "middling."
The offensive line can't run block. Full stop. And you can't divorce the pass game from the run game. They are synergistic and integrally woven into one another.
How miserable is the Giants offensive line?
26th in rushing yards per game (90.8)
27th in rushing yards per attempt (3.9)
28th in rushing TDs (7)
28th in time of possession (28:54)
29th in rushing first downs (54)
If this hot mess of a unit isn't re-built from the ground up, neither the QB, RB or WR positions will ever come close to reaching their full potential.
And neither will our defense.
Sadly - there's three problems going on at the same time...
B/c Saquon is not going to get a gold jacket. Not after he blew out his knee anyway.
Seattle is a great example. They were rolling out some of the worst OLs I have ever seen the last five years. Yet, Wilson still was able lead the team to winning records, playoff spots, and pro bowl production.
Unfortunately, are problems are compounded by an average-below average OL and a QB who is limited in his ability to lift the team up and help offset these OL issues.
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In comment 15472079 Eric from BBI said:
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not sure how any Giants fan who actually watches these games cannot come away saying the OL is a problem.
More to this point, as I said in another thread, these stats have to be looked in with the context. The Giants obviously gameplan around this. They make Jones get rid of the ball almost immediately. There are few, if any, five-seven step drops. Very little stepping up in the pocket and no run game to keep the defense honest.
But nobody who has even a rudimentary understanding of football can watch the Giants and think that blocking (at any level, inside, outside, second level) is something that is middle of the pack in this league. It is just not.
And you think other teams with bad O-lines don't try to scheme around that?
Yes, they do, but a team like the Steelers with an awful offensive line, still takes plenty of shots down the field (with horrifying results lol), but they try.
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In comment 15472079 Eric from BBI said:
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not sure how any Giants fan who actually watches these games cannot come away saying the OL is a problem.
Problem? Absolutely.
Historically bad OL as some fans have described it? We don't even have the worst OL in the NFL this season when it comes to pass pro.
The OL isn't doing DJ any favors, but other QBs are doing more with less when it comes to their OLs.
OK who? It's not Wilson, Fields or Dalton.
Wilson has 10 TDs in 7 games. That's better per game than Jones.
The Bears are a tire fire on the OL, and are doing it in a QB transition year - that's almost not worth considering, but even so, yes they're worse. Is that what DJ should be in his 3rd year with a better OL and better weapons? An amalgamation of a rookie and a journeyman?
Kirk Cousins is playing behind one of the lines that shows up a few times below the Giants (Cousins gets sacked way less but pressured, hurried, and hit way more), how's he doing? Apparently you can have a mediocre OL and still have 23 TDs and 3 INTs at this point in the season.
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In comment 15472096 Eric from BBI said:
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In comment 15472087 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 15472079 Eric from BBI said:
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not sure how any Giants fan who actually watches these games cannot come away saying the OL is a problem.
Did anyone say it wasn’t a problem?
Ummmmm
Eric, I think you're interpreting my post as saying that the OL is just fine and dandy, no problems, nothing to see here.
That's not my point at all, and I apologize for not being clearer about that.
I do think the OL is bad. It's a problem. It's just not even the worst in football this year (and it's not even close to the worst, honestly) let alone historically bad. Said another way, if other QBs are producing behind OLs that are worse than ours, it ceases to be an excuse for a QB who will average less than one passing TD per game over a full two season stretch.
I understand, but are you also factoring in running game productivity by those teams as well as the number of games missed by those teams' primary pass receivers?
Now we're reintroducing other excuses. The premise of this post was that if the last remaining excuse for DJ is the OL, should it be a worthy excuse?
Seattle is a great example. They were rolling out some of the worst OLs I have ever seen the last five years. Yet, Wilson still was able lead the team to winning records, playoff spots, and pro bowl production.
Unfortunately, are problems are compounded by an average-below average OL and a QB who is limited in his ability to lift the team up and help offset these OL issues.
And how does Seattle gameplan around it? Their QB runs fifty yards backwards. Each time handles poor OL play differently, we just have not done it well (whether it be front office in getting us better talent, coaches in coaching the team, and players like Jones in executing).
That was the main problem last year w/ being able to evaluate QB play...I think...
The right thing to assume is that all three are.
Eric, there are posters on this forum who have admitted they don't really watch the games. Its bizarre.
Anecdotally I watched the Dallas v Raiders game and the Raiders OL looked every bit as bad as ours, but Carr really moves around well and found receivers open deep. The one difference is they could run the ball... maybe it was the OL or maybe it was their RB vs Barkely, idk... maybe a bit of both?
I would say our OL play is an issue, it's no myth.
If it were purely about scheming to get the ball out quickly (as the Steelers do with Ben), it would show up in the pocket time metric.
All of these stats are intended to allow any escape hatch from the other stats to be revealed. The Giants start most plays from something that approximates league median when it comes to OL play on pass protection.
No, it doesn't tell the whole story. It's almost impossible to do that in football, because of how the pieces fit together. But that goes for excuses as well as rebuttals. If you think that I can't simply prove that the OL is not at fault, then by definition you can't simply prove that DJ isn't at fault either.
QED
i'd honestly like to see jones and barkley replaced with glennon and booker. i don't think you'd see any drop-off in offensive production and would likely see an uptick.
Stay off the drugs kids
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not sure how any Giants fan who actually watches these games cannot come away saying the OL is a problem.
Eric, there are posters on this forum who have admitted they don't really watch the games. Its bizarre.
Or you could just, you know, read the arguments and see that nobody is saying the O-line isn't a problem
Garrett cut the balls off the offense
This.
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by the fact that Garrett never threw downfield (where pass pro has to stand up more). Every passing play was 3-5 yds.
Garrett cut the balls off the offense
This.
Then the pocket time would be lower.
Is BBI really this innumerate?
i'd honestly like to see jones and barkley replaced with glennon and booker. i don't think you'd see any drop-off in offensive production and would likely see an uptick.
Wow.
I disagree with your point of view.
And there’s also the possibility that DJ’s play has masked worse shit from happening.
There’s near universal consensus that Solder is done, Hernandez is playing poorly and Price is a stop gap ... yet the sum of these parts is supposed to be ok. Seriously, get real.
Some fans are delusional if they feel this line is less than putrid and not eh worst in the NFL. Thomas has been the only quality starter. The Line was decimated in the first 2 games.. we had our back ups retire. and our future starter on RT injured and missing key rep time. The OL is the number 1 problem for this team since 2011 -its now 2021
It’s the QB, and his inability to handle pressure, which bottles up the entire offense
But the so-called "playmakers" on this team aren't doing their part even in a conservative offense. There are many other teams with porous OLs too that are able to function better because of higher quality QB/RB/TE/WR play...
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In comment 15472100 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15472079 Eric from BBI said:
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not sure how any Giants fan who actually watches these games cannot come away saying the OL is a problem.
Problem? Absolutely.
Historically bad OL as some fans have described it? We don't even have the worst OL in the NFL this season when it comes to pass pro.
The OL isn't doing DJ any favors, but other QBs are doing more with less when it comes to their OLs.
OK who? It's not Wilson, Fields or Dalton.
Wilson has 10 TDs in 7 games. That's better per game than Jones.
The Bears are a tire fire on the OL, and are doing it in a QB transition year - that's almost not worth considering, but even so, yes they're worse. Is that what DJ should be in his 3rd year with a better OL and better weapons? An amalgamation of a rookie and a journeyman?
Kirk Cousins is playing behind one of the lines that shows up a few times below the Giants (Cousins gets sacked way less but pressured, hurried, and hit way more), how's he doing? Apparently you can have a mediocre OL and still have 23 TDs and 3 INTs at this point in the season.
The Giants line isn't mediocre and the Bears and the Seahawks have records that are the same or worse than the Giants. When you just look at random stats(especially when you are searching to prove a point) you forget that winning and losing is important. I forgot that you were one of those guys that will do anything to shit on Jones so I'm done here, but really watching the games and winning and losing are important things.
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not sure how any Giants fan who actually watches these games cannot come away saying the OL is a problem.
Some fans are delusional if they feel this line is less than putrid and not eh worst in the NFL. Thomas has been the only quality starter. The Line was decimated in the first 2 games.. we had our back ups retire. and our future starter on RT injured and missing key rep time. The OL is the number 1 problem for this team since 2011 -its now 2021
If the Giants' OL is the worst in the NFL, how are other lines giving up more sacks, more hurries, more pressure, more hits, less pocket time, etc.?
Wouldn't it be easier to just admit that you don't watch any other games besides the Giants?
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In comment 15472102 PEEJ said:
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by the fact that Garrett never threw downfield (where pass pro has to stand up more). Every passing play was 3-5 yds.
Garrett cut the balls off the offense
This.
Then the pocket time would be lower.
Is BBI really this innumerate?
Does this take into account pocket time that DJ buys and sometimes tucks it and runs?
Add on that our run game stinks and our play calling has been vanilla, and there you have it.
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In comment 15472102 PEEJ said:
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by the fact that Garrett never threw downfield (where pass pro has to stand up more). Every passing play was 3-5 yds.
Garrett cut the balls off the offense
This.
Then the pocket time would be lower.
Is BBI really this innumerate?
Gatorade Dunk -- if the Giants passing game was turned into dink and donk by Garrett, then that would make just about all of your stats give an inflated view of our O-line's pass blocking skills. That includes:
Sacks per game
Sack percentage
Pressures per game
Pressure percentage
Hurries per game
Hits per game
How can a team look bad on the above stats when they are getting rid of the ball on short to intermediate passes?
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are bigger problems than the OL, or at least the OL is no bigger a problem than those two are.
i'd honestly like to see jones and barkley replaced with glennon and booker. i don't think you'd see any drop-off in offensive production and would likely see an uptick.
Wow.
I disagree with your point of view.
disagree all you want.
we have already seen booker be more productive than barkley behind this same OL.
we have seen toney have 189 yards receiving in one half of one game with glennon throwing him the ball behind this same OL.
there is just no evidence this season that jones and barkely are difference makers at their positions, and there is plenty of evidence to suggest they exacerbate the teams OL problems.
While it's a problem DJ is better throwing out of the pocket, throwing on the run would be easier if our WRs got open
Yesterday alone, Barkley is hit behind the LOS on almost every run. Teams for weeks have been able to rush 3 and pressure the QB
This OL can’t run block and can’t pass block
When all you are throwing are the shortest passes possible, those numbers won't tell the tale. Look at what happens when the Giants HAVE to throw he ball. The more telling stat is yards per carry. The Giants are averaging 3.8 yards a carry, tied for fifth worst in the league, and 90.8 yards a game, tied for seventh worst. Take out Jones' 298 yards and it's 3.5 yards a carry and 63 yards a game.
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In comment 15472090 japanhead said:
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are bigger problems than the OL, or at least the OL is no bigger a problem than those two are.
i'd honestly like to see jones and barkley replaced with glennon and booker. i don't think you'd see any drop-off in offensive production and would likely see an uptick.
Wow.
I disagree with your point of view.
disagree all you want.
we have already seen booker be more productive than barkley behind this same OL.
we have seen toney have 189 yards receiving in one half of one game with glennon throwing him the ball behind this same OL.
there is just no evidence this season that jones and barkely are difference makers at their positions, and there is plenty of evidence to suggest they exacerbate the teams OL problems.
You left out the part where Glennon threw 2 INTs....one for a defensive Touchdown
But this stuff is all interrelated.
Unless you really believe Eli Manning went from arguably league MVP at the age of 30 to bum for the entire second half of his career, then you need know other evidence that the team's OL has been horrific for a decade.
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In comment 15472109 Walker Gillette said:
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In comment 15472100 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15472079 Eric from BBI said:
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not sure how any Giants fan who actually watches these games cannot come away saying the OL is a problem.
Problem? Absolutely.
Historically bad OL as some fans have described it? We don't even have the worst OL in the NFL this season when it comes to pass pro.
The OL isn't doing DJ any favors, but other QBs are doing more with less when it comes to their OLs.
OK who? It's not Wilson, Fields or Dalton.
Wilson has 10 TDs in 7 games. That's better per game than Jones.
The Bears are a tire fire on the OL, and are doing it in a QB transition year - that's almost not worth considering, but even so, yes they're worse. Is that what DJ should be in his 3rd year with a better OL and better weapons? An amalgamation of a rookie and a journeyman?
Kirk Cousins is playing behind one of the lines that shows up a few times below the Giants (Cousins gets sacked way less but pressured, hurried, and hit way more), how's he doing? Apparently you can have a mediocre OL and still have 23 TDs and 3 INTs at this point in the season.
The Giants line isn't mediocre and the Bears and the Seahawks have records that are the same or worse than the Giants. When you just look at random stats(especially when you are searching to prove a point) you forget that winning and losing is important. I forgot that you were one of those guys that will do anything to shit on Jones so I'm done here, but really watching the games and winning and losing are important things.
These aren't random stats. They're literally every stat that reflects pass protection rates. If you can find even a single OL pass pro stat that I omitted, I'll gladly accept that this was somehow cherry picked. But I don't think you can.
And they're intentionally assembled. If a team is scheming around a poor OL they may be artificially inflated on sacks/hurries/pressures/hits, but that will show up in pocket time. And if they are doing poorly in sacks/hurries/pressures/hits, that should show up in pocket time (as a function of a poor internal clock from the QB) or not (in which case the OL is just so bad that it's a jailbreak every time).
That's not what shows up the Giants' OL metrics. They're not good. I'm not trying to make that case. But they're basically toward the low end of the middle-third, which is to say that OL play around the league is not especially good, but more than a handful of teams have it worse than the Giants. Meanwhile, QB play around the league isn't necessarily suffering.
This isn't entirely to excuse the OL. I would love to have the Suburbanites up front right now. But I think our OL is bearing more than their fair share of blame at the moment for those fans who really, really want DJ to not be a weakness on this roster.
Smoke and mirrors are deployed on first and second downs and on standard possessions, however this OL cannot consistently protect when it matters most. This OL cannot force defenses to have to rely on sending pressure. It’s the opposite. This OL consistently allows defenses to win by only rushing 4 or even 3 and maximize coverage on the back end.
Improvement is needed across the board. Coaching, blocking, running, receiving, and throwing.
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In comment 15472090 japanhead said:
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are bigger problems than the OL, or at least the OL is no bigger a problem than those two are.
i'd honestly like to see jones and barkley replaced with glennon and booker. i don't think you'd see any drop-off in offensive production and would likely see an uptick.
Wow.
I disagree with your point of view.
disagree all you want.
we have already seen booker be more productive than barkley behind this same OL.
we have seen toney have 189 yards receiving in one half of one game with glennon throwing him the ball behind this same OL.
there is just no evidence this season that jones and barkely are difference makers at their positions, and there is plenty of evidence to suggest they exacerbate the teams OL problems.
Do you really want to stand on the conviction that QBs and RBs enhance the play of the offensive line MORE THAN the reverse?
it's a combination of poor OL play, the play calling not really matching the OL capabilities or strengths, QB issues, skill position issues, etc.
I think the Giants have the longest streak in the NFL for not scoring 30 points in a game (on offense) or one of the longest. December 22, 2019 vs Washington. and OL play has a big part in that ineptitude.
But this stuff is all interrelated.
Unless you really believe Eli Manning went from arguably league MVP at the age of 30 to bum for the entire second half of his career, then you need know other evidence that the team's OL has been horrific for a decade.
I get that and I agree with it. The OL was worse in some of those years than it is now. Not exactly a high bar to beat, but still. And I think Eli had some PTSD in the final few years because of the bad OL play in front of him.
The point isn't whether DJ has a good OL in front of him; it's really how good of an OL will he need before he's not a liability. Because right now (and this is a reflection of the NFL at large), our OL is closer to league average than it is to the bottom.
Please name the good/great/elite NFL QBs who play behind shitty lines?!
Mayfield, Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, Brady, ARod, Mahomes, Stafford, Dak, Herbert, etc?!
You guys think good line play is a coincidence to good QB play?! We can't run the ball effectively behind this line so play action is almost non-existent and plays cant consistently develop down the field, and our WRs are dropping like flies.
These aren't random stats. They're literally every stat that reflects pass protection rates. If you can find even a single OL pass pro stat that I omitted, I'll gladly accept that this was somehow cherry picked. But I don't think you can.
And they're intentionally assembled. If a team is scheming around a poor OL they may be artificially inflated on sacks/hurries/pressures/hits, but that will show up in pocket time. And if they are doing poorly in sacks/hurries/pressures/hits, that should show up in pocket time (as a function of a poor internal clock from the QB) or not (in which case the OL is just so bad that it's a jailbreak every time).
That's not what shows up the Giants' OL metrics. They're not good. I'm not trying to make that case. But they're basically toward the low end of the middle-third, which is to say that OL play around the league is not especially good, but more than a handful of teams have it worse than the Giants. Meanwhile, QB play around the league isn't necessarily suffering.
This isn't entirely to excuse the OL. I would love to have the Suburbanites up front right now. But I think our OL is bearing more than their fair share of blame at the moment for those fans who really, really want DJ to not be a weakness on this roster.
Thanks for doing this GD, but no stats you can post will convince the Jones dead-enders that anything is his fault. Since you've posted about every relevant stat to show that Giants' pass pro is middle of the pack, not historically bad, they'll pivot to the ESPN pass block win rate, which is about as subjective a stat as you can get.
Look, the Giant OL isn't good, and every spot to the right of Andrew Thomas needs to be upgraded, but they aren't the reason for Jones's inconsistent play.
You left out the part where Glennon threw 2 INTs....one for a defensive Touchdown
and jones threw 2 ints and for 167 total passing yards just 13 days ago v tampa bay.
i'm not saying glennon is the answer at QB going forward, just that he wouldn't be significantly worse than jones, who has been one of the worst starting QBs in football.
ditto booker for barkley. but at least barkley has the excuse that inuries derailed his potential. jones has no such excuse.
The Giants can't run the ball and all of the primary receiving targets (Golladay, Toney, Smith, Barkley, Engram, etc.) have all missed significant time.
Jones may suck, but he's also cursed.
Jones glaring weakness in my opinion is that he has a tendancy to have bad nationally televised games. He has lost them all even though he has played well in some.
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In comment 15472169 Ira said:
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In comment 15472102 PEEJ said:
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by the fact that Garrett never threw downfield (where pass pro has to stand up more). Every passing play was 3-5 yds.
Garrett cut the balls off the offense
This.
Then the pocket time would be lower.
Is BBI really this innumerate?
Gatorade Dunk -- if the Giants passing game was turned into dink and donk by Garrett, then that would make just about all of your stats give an inflated view of our O-line's pass blocking skills. That includes:
Sacks per game
Sack percentage
Pressures per game
Pressure percentage
Hurries per game
Hits per game
How can a team look bad on the above stats when they are getting rid of the ball on short to intermediate passes?
True. And that's why pocket time is included as the catch-all reverse metric.
If a team is purely dink-and-dunk to protect themselves from a poor OL, they'll see their pocket time average decline. But the Giants aren't at the bottom of the league there, either.
Their offensive scheme may suck, but it's not because they don't have enough time to execute something that at least resembles a 2021 NFL offense.
Now we're reintroducing other excuses. The premise of this post was that if the last remaining excuse for DJ is the OL, should it be a worthy excuse?
It is possible that DJ has a bit more time to throw than some because of this...it also means that there are more defenders in coverage.
Statistics are good for peer review but they are generally not something on which you might base a theory.
my $0.02
It is possible that DJ has a bit more time to throw than some because of this...it also means that there are more defenders in coverage.
Statistics are good for peer review but they are generally not something on which you might base a theory.
my $0.02
Jones is the 5th most blitzed QB in the NFL this year.
The Giants can't run the ball and all of the primary receiving targets (Golladay, Toney, Smith, Barkley, Engram, etc.) have all missed significant time.
Jones may suck, but he's also cursed.
I agree with you on that last point. He may suck, he may be cursed, it may be both.
But as we head toward an offseason where his 5y option is due to be decided upon, I don't think it would be wise to invest bigger dollars in him while he's still a question mark.
Maybe that's unfair to him (it probably is, on some level), and maybe that could be a mistake if all of the excuses are true. But I know that if we need to rebuild much of this roster yet again, it will be easier to do so in 2023 without a $21M QB on the books who can't seem to even average a single passing TD per game.
I just want the Giants to be consistently in the hunt again. I don't want our wins to feel like a surprise party anymore. I don't see how we get there without a lot of work on the roster, which has been built outside-in despite the very vocal plan of DG when he was hired. And it doesn't make any sense to carry DJ into a second contract for that rebuild unless it's crystal clear that he's a stud and the roster around him is the issue.
I just don't think anyone can claim that with a straight face or functioning brain.
I'm not seeing how that has a fucking thing to do with pass protection. But hey, I guess maybe we both suck at reading comprehension.
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Dunk, the Rushing issue is a big part of the protection issue. Because the team cannot run there is no reason to bring a S up into the box. Because the team cannot pass block, there is no reason to blitz.
It is possible that DJ has a bit more time to throw than some because of this...it also means that there are more defenders in coverage.
Statistics are good for peer review but they are generally not something on which you might base a theory.
my $0.02
Jones is the 5th most blitzed QB in the NFL this year.
I stand by my post. If your team is one dimensional and is poor at that thing, you're in trouble.
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In comment 15472257 Brown_Hornet said:
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Dunk, the Rushing issue is a big part of the protection issue. Because the team cannot run there is no reason to bring a S up into the box. Because the team cannot pass block, there is no reason to blitz.
It is possible that DJ has a bit more time to throw than some because of this...it also means that there are more defenders in coverage.
Statistics are good for peer review but they are generally not something on which you might base a theory.
my $0.02
Jones is the 5th most blitzed QB in the NFL this year.
If you say so.
I stand by my post. If your team is one dimensional and is poor at that thing, you're in trouble.
There's no "if you say so."
All of you have access to the same insight that anyone else does. You just choose to not actually observe it.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/advanced.htm
so there's that...
It wasn't snarky, it was honest. I believe him.
The OL stinks, it's not a myth.
How would these stats look if the Giants ran an average number of plays that required time for the WRs to get downfield?
That being said, while the offensive line is bad, I think we're seeing enough that Jones doesn't have it on the rare occasion he's given time (especially in the red zone)
Jones is the main problem here. Which is not to say the OL doesn't need to be improved, but the QB needs to help the OL gel. This guy can't do it.
The OL is pathetic. Maybe Thomas is a good player, but that's it.
I posted several times before the year started, and it’s even more true now. The development of the offense is all about odds.
I felt it was low odds Solder, Peart, Lemieux and Hernandez would all be better than their last year on the field. I felt it was low odds the Giants would repeat the health along the line they had in 2020.
So now keep in mind 4 of the 5 starters yesterday are not under contract next year, and Gates and Lemieux are coming off major injuries.
What are the odds the Giants upgrade 4 offensive line positions next year?
I think the better odds are with upgrading the QB talent.
The biggest issue is they don't get consistent rush yards on 1st down. Too many 2nd and 9's or worse. Hard to keep a defense of guard. What we do not know is what Jones role is in it. Eli who was exceptional at changing out of bad plays couldn't overcome the OL so I think it is probably still a OL issue.
Jones is the main problem here. Which is not to say the OL doesn't need to be improved, but the QB needs to help the OL gel. This guy can't do it.
I echoed the same thing above. But I'm not sure how to allocate the %s between OL and QB. My instinct is to say it mostly Jones. And that's driven by my theory that he isn't good at going to the LOS and getting us into a better play that would help the OL. I would love to know how many times he checks out of the called play. My guess is he runs that play well over 90% of the time...
Which brings into question Jones's football IQ. I just don't think it's that good for the position.
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the "opening running lanes per game" stat. That's the one we'd be at the league bottom on.
I'm not seeing how that has a fucking thing to do with pass protection. But hey, I guess maybe we both suck at reading comprehension.
Like many here I’m simply stating that they are related…
But this stuff is all interrelated.
Unless you really believe Eli Manning went from arguably league MVP at the age of 30 to bum for the entire second half of his career, then you need know other evidence that the team's OL has been horrific for a decade.
Eli had pretty good 2014/2015 seasons behind very poor OLs.
I echoed the same thing above. But I'm not sure how to allocate the %s between OL and QB. My instinct is to say it mostly Jones. And that's driven by my theory that he isn't good at going to the LOS and getting us into a better play that would help the OL. I would love to know how many times he checks out of the called play. My guess is he runs that play well over 90% of the time...
Which brings into question Jones's football IQ. I just don't think it's that good for the position.
I tend to agree with this. The announcers mentioned yesterday that with Kitchens, Jones would be given more autonomy at the LOS. It appears that at the least, Garrett restricted his ability to make changes. He didn't do that with Romo or Dak, so maybe he was concerned about what Jones was seeing?
And it's not only playcalling. The QB is a check on the OC's line calls. He has to ID the Mike and try to determine where the pressure is going to come from. If Jones isn't doing that properly, he could be one of the reasons for the OL struggles.
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In comment 15472090 japanhead said:
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are bigger problems than the OL, or at least the OL is no bigger a problem than those two are.
i'd honestly like to see jones and barkley replaced with glennon and booker. i don't think you'd see any drop-off in offensive production and would likely see an uptick.
Wow.
I disagree with your point of view.
disagree all you want.
we have already seen booker be more productive than barkley behind this same OL.
we have seen toney have 189 yards receiving in one half of one game with glennon throwing him the ball behind this same OL.
there is just no evidence this season that jones and barkely are difference makers at their positions, and there is plenty of evidence to suggest they exacerbate the teams OL problems.
It wasn't snarky, it was honest. I believe him.
The OL stinks, it's not a myth.
right, the myth is the comment that Jones has more time to throw because he isn't being blitzed and that there are more guys in coverage...
Both groups are right. And wrong! And it's probably similar to the arguments happening within the Giants organization itself. I would say the "trust your eyes" folks have been winning those arguments for the last decade - to the detriment of the franchise - but that's just my opinion.
As for the data analysis, yeoman's work here by GD, but I think even he would admit that it's incomplete as there are other data points that are relevant, yet missing. WR separation is one that comes to mind for me - maybe Jones is getting the ball out quicker to avoid the rush, but not actually connecting often enough because the receivers aren't open. Passes defended would be another one. And both of those would be a symptom of lack of talent and/or poor play calling and coaching.
Daniel Jones is the biggest problem the Giants have, followed closely by the lack of a pass rush, followed closely by the Giants OGs and C.
We've heard Judge say Jones is his guy, Jones can be a very good NFL QB etc. But those are words. When it came time to win the game yesterday after Scott fumbled what did the Giants do? They ran 3 give up plays to try and get the Eagles to burn their TOs and punted without even making an attempt to get a first down and end the game with the ball. Some of that might be not trusting the horrible OL but it's a clear indication of what the coaching staff thinks of the QB. They don't trust hi to protect the ball and protect the lead.
As bad as the Eagles QB played yesterday they win the game if their receiver doesn't drop two very catchable balls at the end of the game.
I can't believe that Solder is still starting over Peart at RT so maybe Judge really thinks Jones is his QB and it wasn't a trust thing. Maybe that's just how Judge will evaluate and coach until he's fired. Which will be at the end of next year the latest IMO if he keeps playing players like Solder and playing not to lose.
You are right on there
Rodgers and Wilson are Masters of moving up in the pocket and throwing accurately on the run
Jones (much like Phil Simms) has not mastered this very important dynamic
Phil won a few games and a Trophy though
The OL does suck! But a dozen other OLs around the league also suck, some much worse! And some QBs who work behind those lesser OLs are still performing at a higher level than DJ.
This is not intended to absolve the OL of ANY blame here; after all, they were hand-chosen by the same dimwit who built the rest of the roster, but that it is possible to perform at least adequately behind a mediocre OL, because we're seeing it happen for other teams.
But OL play in general is in decline across the league, yet I think many Giants fans only watch our games and thus are comparing our OL to past years instead of what is actually happening in the NFL right now.
Our OL needs to be improved, drastically. But so does our QB.
I posted several times before the year started, and it’s even more true now. The development of the offense is all about odds.
I felt it was low odds Solder, Peart, Lemieux and Hernandez would all be better than their last year on the field. I felt it was low odds the Giants would repeat the health along the line they had in 2020.
So now keep in mind 4 of the 5 starters yesterday are not under contract next year, and Gates and Lemieux are coming off major injuries.
What are the odds the Giants upgrade 4 offensive line positions next year?
I think the better odds are with upgrading the QB talent.
We beat Seattle last year with McCoy and we won a game with Glennon this year. When Jones was hurt this year, it would have been nice to sit him for a few weeks to see what the offense would look like with different QB getting all the practice reps and a couple of weeks to get him used to the system.
It was an important piece of information we failed to acquire in the midst of another lost season.
However, you want stats so how about we simply google OL rankings for 2021?
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-week-10-offensive-line-rankings-2021
31st in the league according to PFF after week 10
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-line-units-entering-2021-season
PFF again before the season started, dead last.
https://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/analysis/2021-nfl-offensive-line-rankings-by-positional-unit/
Never heard of this site before but Giants rank 2nd to last again.
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/fantasy/news/2021-nfl-offensive-line-rankings-fantasy-football-sleepers-busts/1a383cwxkyin71wj5ggqcs1gdz
Sporting News
I could easily keep going but the point is that of the people that get paid to report on stuff like this, NOBODY has the Giants' OL as the "middle of the pack". NOBODY!
Why not put Brederson in at LG(since we burned a 4th round draft choice) move Skura to center and start Peart at RT. Can it be any worse???
Just a thought!!!
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period and full stop. We have OL guys who failed here and worked out on teams with so-called *better* OLs.
Jones is the main problem here. Which is not to say the OL doesn't need to be improved, but the QB needs to help the OL gel. This guy can't do it.
I echoed the same thing above. But I'm not sure how to allocate the %s between OL and QB. My instinct is to say it mostly Jones. And that's driven by my theory that he isn't good at going to the LOS and getting us into a better play that would help the OL. I would love to know how many times he checks out of the called play. My guess is he runs that play well over 90% of the time...
Which brings into question Jones's football IQ. I just don't think it's that good for the position.
yes. but it's not just checking to a different play. His post-snap movement helps with the protections. But yes he is bad at the LOS. He doesn't move protections. He doesn't do anything other than what is scripted.
Jones is a badly performing robot.
Why not put Brederson in at LG(since we burned a 4th round draft choice) move Skura to center and start Peart at RT. Can it be any worse???
Just a thought!!!
I'm not sure if this is unclear, but several posters seem to think that the OL is a viable excuse for DJ's mediocrity. And if that's the case, then the OL should be overwhelmingly bad, right? But if the OL is middle of the pack, and DJ is still mediocre, then maybe he's just mediocre.
I guess that that was not especially clear with the thread title or the OP?
However, you want stats so how about we simply google OL rankings for 2021?
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-week-10-offensive-line-rankings-2021
31st in the league according to PFF after week 10
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-line-units-entering-2021-season
PFF again before the season started, dead last.
https://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/analysis/2021-nfl-offensive-line-rankings-by-positional-unit/
Never heard of this site before but Giants rank 2nd to last again.
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/fantasy/news/2021-nfl-offensive-line-rankings-fantasy-football-sleepers-busts/1a383cwxkyin71wj5ggqcs1gdz
Sporting News
I could easily keep going but the point is that of the people that get paid to report on stuff like this, NOBODY has the Giants' OL as the "middle of the pack". NOBODY!
Ah, one of the days that BBI likes PFF.
Try running PFF metrics around these parts when they're not favorable, see how that goes.
Also, those are not isolated to pass pro.
Now I believe the giants need to move on at QB.
I don't believe that that excuses the OL and I don't believe that they are middle of the pack.
Clearly this team has a multitude of issues that need to be addressed in the draft. At this point with a little bit of knowledge I don't believe that any of the quarterbacks will be worthy of 1 of our 1st round selections based on the other talent that will be available... I guess I just don't like the idea of reaching for a quarterback.
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I agree DJ is not a franchise QB but like I said this OL sucks. Right now 4 of the 5 starters on our OL are backups on other teams(maybe?).
Why not put Brederson in at LG(since we burned a 4th round draft choice) move Skura to center and start Peart at RT. Can it be any worse???
Just a thought!!!
I'm not sure if this is unclear, but several posters seem to think that the OL is a viable excuse for DJ's mediocrity. And if that's the case, then the OL should be overwhelmingly bad, right? But if the OL is middle of the pack, and DJ is still mediocre, then maybe he's just mediocre.
I guess that that was not especially clear with the thread title or the OP?
Your stats don't prove mediocrity. If the Giants have purposefully shortened their passing game due to their scary pass blocking, then the stats you opened with are not relevant.
Rushing stats. ave. att/game 29 avypg. 138 ave/rush 4.7
I will stay just in division but take a look at the same stats for Dak and Wentz with their respective teams. They actual exceed the numbers above. Both were Pro Bowl in within the first two years.
Patriots with Mac Jones average 28 rushes 116 yards 4.1
2021 Giants 23 attempts per game. 90 yards per game. 3.8
I am pretty sure they will be moving on from Jones. I can't say how much of a impact Jones has on the stats above. What I will say until the Giants fix the ability to run it is highly likely the next QB is going to struggle as well. They do not run enough and the average is not consistent where they are winning down and distance. How much that is Jones, the OL or the skill players is the debate at hand imv. Don't forget a lot of the running yards come from a couple bigger gainers and a whole lot of nothing or negative plays.
Your subjective impressions of the Giants relative OL performance are worthless. OL play has deteriorated as defensive player athleticism has improved. The NFL can’t find enough quality o-lineman. So your frame of reference, based on amateur viewing of selected other teams from this season and past, are inadequate to the task of ranking the Giants OL. Just admit it.
But there are a ton of BBIers who focus in on those holes without ever asking: What do these players look like behind a decent offensive line.
Yesterday, Barkley was given one chance to get through the line untouched and he turned it into a 34-yard run.
Yesterday, I think Daniel Jones threw the ball way downfield ONCE even though there's a new O.C. And the reason why is obvious: he has no time in the pocket to allow deep routes to develop.
And last but not least, some BBIers seem to think that the QB and RB should make the o-line look at least as good as the O-line making the QB and RB look good.
That is ass backwards.
Please describe how "pocket time" is being defined? Is it how much time a QB has before someone hits him? Or is it the amount of time the QB takes before he throws the ball? Or, something else?
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as GD keeps pointing out, it's middle of the pack. it's not artificially inflated by roll outs. the Giants are not the only team in the NFL that tries to compensate for poor OL play by moving the QB. the fact that the OL is also bad at run blocking doesn't change the pocket time number. it's pretty simple - on an average pass play, DJ has about the league average amount of time to make a read and get rid of the ball. that doesn't mean the OL is good. but it does suggest as the OP has pointed out that they are not somehow the worst pass blocking OL in the league, let alone the worst OL the NFL has seen in a decade, as may on this board seem to suggest. now, you can fairly argue that Garrett's play designs were so bad at scheming guys open that there's no one for Jones to throw the ball too half the time. and the running game has been so bad that he's often in third and longs and so holds the ball longer to try to make a play (I'd bet there's a stat on this too) but the evidence is also that he's not a good processor - he misses reads and therefore doesn't make plays that are there to be made.
Please describe how "pocket time" is being defined? Is it how much time a QB has before someone hits him? Or is it the amount of time the QB takes before he throws the ball? Or, something else?
As defined by PFR, pocket time is the "average time the QB had in the pocket between the snap and throwing the ball or pressure collapses the pocket, in seconds."
So QBs who get rid of the ball quickly have a low pocket time metric, as do QBs who are pressured quickly (so if they're forced out of the pocket due to pressure, that also would knock down their pocket time metric). It's unclear how designed rollouts factor in here, but since most accept that DJ's mobility is a strength, I don't think designed rollouts should be viewed as discrediting the data, since intended rollouts should be considered a utilization of one of DJ's primary skills.
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In comment 15472495 Rick in Dallas said:
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I agree DJ is not a franchise QB but like I said this OL sucks. Right now 4 of the 5 starters on our OL are backups on other teams(maybe?).
Why not put Brederson in at LG(since we burned a 4th round draft choice) move Skura to center and start Peart at RT. Can it be any worse???
Just a thought!!!
I'm not sure if this is unclear, but several posters seem to think that the OL is a viable excuse for DJ's mediocrity. And if that's the case, then the OL should be overwhelmingly bad, right? But if the OL is middle of the pack, and DJ is still mediocre, then maybe he's just mediocre.
I guess that that was not especially clear with the thread title or the OP?
Your stats don't prove mediocrity. If the Giants have purposefully shortened their passing game due to their scary pass blocking, then the stats you opened with are not relevant.
Yes, they do. If the "scary pass blocking" was worse than the league, that would show up somewhere - pressures, hurries, hits, sacks... it doesn't appear in any of those metrics as being even near the bottom of the league. And so you shift to pocket time, but that's not really favorable to your argument either, so the question becomes about rollout passes. That's literally the only exception you're down to. I did my homework. You tell me how many designed rollouts the Giants ran yesterday. Tell me how many they've run this season.
It's not zero, obviously. It's part of the scheme and it does protect DJ from a troublesome OL. But other NFL teams have even worse lines. And many of them have QBs that somehow produce more points than DJ.
If the argument is about to shift back to the rest of the offense yet again, I have to repeat the question that no one ever seems to answer: if the entire offense is so bad, and they were all assembled by DG, why do you have faith that he got this one particular draft pick correct when there's no data to support it?
But there are a ton of BBIers who focus in on those holes without ever asking: What do these players look like behind a decent offensive line.
Yesterday, Barkley was given one chance to get through the line untouched and he turned it into a 34-yard run.
Yesterday, I think Daniel Jones threw the ball way downfield ONCE even though there's a new O.C. And the reason why is obvious: he has no time in the pocket to allow deep routes to develop.
And last but not least, some BBIers seem to think that the QB and RB should make the o-line look at least as good as the O-line making the QB and RB look good.
That is ass backwards.
No, I don't think anyone expects the QB and RB to make the OL look good. I think some fans understand that the QB and RB are making the OL look worse than they are.
But there are a ton of BBIers who focus in on those holes without ever asking: What do these players look like behind a decent offensive line.
Yesterday, Barkley was given one chance to get through the line untouched and he turned it into a 34-yard run.
Yesterday, I think Daniel Jones threw the ball way downfield ONCE even though there's a new O.C. And the reason why is obvious: he has no time in the pocket to allow deep routes to develop.
And last but not least, some BBIers seem to think that the QB and RB should make the o-line look at least as good as the O-line making the QB and RB look good.
That is ass backwards.
It’s not backwards, we see QBs and RBs rise above bad olines on a weekly basis. Nobody is asking for them to be Rodgers and Barry Sanders, but at least show something.
What has Jones shown on a consistent basis that leads you to believe a good oline will make him a franchise QB?
So Tom Brady commands his offense and hits his marks faster than the time it takes Daniel Jones to drop back, look confused, and feel pressure.
I think that is a plain indictment of Jones' play. And lets remember Tom Brady is 44 and Daniel Jones is supposed to be entering his prime.
The excuses are mind-numbing.
1. In practice, when Andrew Thomas is playing, the Giants' pass blocking is... passable. I don't think it's the worst in the league. When Thomas is out it's a train wreck.
2. They protect the line by keeping in extra guys, running fewer guys on routes, and running short passing plays. When was the last time they were able to go deep? Even Freddie Kitchens--who LOVES the deep ball--stayed pretty short with his passes yesterday.
3. PFF's grades are worthwhile here. I know, no one likes them and they're not gospel, whatever. They match the eye-test. The Giants have mediocre to below average blocking. No one is the worst in the league but a lot of them are on the cusp.
- Thomas ranks 28/81 among tackles.
- Solder ranks 68/81 among tackles.
- Skura ranks 64/81 among guards.
- Hernandez ranks 71/81 among guards.
- Price is 26/38 of centers.
So only one of five even in the "above average" tier, and four of five in the bottom quartile, or close. And that interior line is *very* weak. Which matches what we saw against Tampa, when the Giants had no answers for the interior pass rush. (In its defense, it has two backups and a third player who ought to be. But Lemieux wasn't good last year either.)
I also think that the line is particularly weak at run blocking. Just watch yesterday's game: the Eagles had holes ALL DAY, and Barkley gets hit behind the line almost every play.
Here's another way I've been looking at it. The Eagles were minus-4 in turnovers yesterday, and they were a dropped pass at the goal line from winning the game anyway. That's what good line play gives you.
With all of that said... I think Jones can be a successful QB if he had a line that was actually *good*, rather than barely mediocre. But a lot of quarterbacks could be successful with a good line, and Jones is about to get expensive.
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Now we're reintroducing other excuses. The premise of this post was that if the last remaining excuse for DJ is the OL, should it be a worthy excuse?
Dunk, the Rushing issue is a big part of the protection issue. Because the team cannot run there is no reason to bring a S up into the box. Because the team cannot pass block, there is no reason to blitz.
It is possible that DJ has a bit more time to throw than some because of this...it also means that there are more defenders in coverage.
Statistics are good for peer review but they are generally not something on which you might base a theory.
my $0.02
This is an interesting counter. But it's worth noting that one of DJ's purported strengths is his running ability. So if a team fails to respect that by dropping an extra man into coverage rather than keeping a spy or blitzer in on any given play, he should be able to make them pay with his legs, right? And if he's unable to because he's facing pressure, that should show up in any of these metrics, right?
You seem to want to force the Daniel Jones argument into a simple dichotomy: The BBIers who think he is fine vs the BBIers who think he needs to be discarded or is only a back-up talent at best.
You are obvious the latter, otherwise you would not have hauled out all these PFF stats.
But there’s a more nuanced view that goes like this:
The current O-line with one legit NFL starter doesn’t really allow us to plant our flag on either side of the Daniel Jones dichotomy.
The Athletic had an article last week ranking pass blocking and had the Giants as a middle of the pack (18th, I think). The problem was all of their best individual pass protectors were the three guys who’ve played the least… Lemieux, Gates, and Thomas.
There’s more than enough people on BBI who know no other words than Jones sucks. Nonsense like this is completely unnecessary.
You seem to want to force the Daniel Jones argument into a simple dichotomy: The BBIers who think he is fine vs the BBIers who think he needs to be discarded or is only a back-up talent at best.
You are obvious the latter, otherwise you would not have hauled out all these PFF stats.
But there’s a more nuanced view that goes like this:
The current O-line with one legit NFL starter doesn’t really allow us to plant our flag on either side of the Daniel Jones dichotomy.
A) NONE of these are PFF stats. Their data is subjective an relies upon their own contextualization of each play as they assume it was intended to occur; these are from PFR, which is more like a genuine database.
B) I don't necessarily think that DJ is only a backup or should be discarded, at least not purely on merit. But I do despise the DJ acolytes who want to extend his scholarship at a higher price, into yet another rebuild, simply because they haven't run out of excuses for him yet.
At a certain point - before his rookie contract expires, he either needs to be really good or be really gone. That's the only way to get this rebuild done.
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In comment 15472146 Gatorade Dunk said:
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Now we're reintroducing other excuses. The premise of this post was that if the last remaining excuse for DJ is the OL, should it be a worthy excuse?
Dunk, the Rushing issue is a big part of the protection issue. Because the team cannot run there is no reason to bring a S up into the box. Because the team cannot pass block, there is no reason to blitz.
It is possible that DJ has a bit more time to throw than some because of this...it also means that there are more defenders in coverage.
Statistics are good for peer review but they are generally not something on which you might base a theory.
my $0.02
This is an interesting counter. But it's worth noting that one of DJ's purported strengths is his running ability. So if a team fails to respect that by dropping an extra man into coverage rather than keeping a spy or blitzer in on any given play, he should be able to make them pay with his legs, right? And if he's unable to because he's facing pressure, that should show up in any of these metrics, right?
The simple answer is, no. Nothing is automatic.
The OP started a good conversation because it posed a question that was never going to have a simple answer, with the exception that the issues on the OL are a myth...clearly they are not.
IMO, DJ has been subpar, the OL has been far worse.
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You seem to want to force the Daniel Jones argument into a simple dichotomy: The BBIers who think he is fine vs the BBIers who think he needs to be discarded or is only a back-up talent at best.
You are obvious the latter, otherwise you would not have hauled out all these PFF stats.
But there’s a more nuanced view that goes like this:
The current O-line with one legit NFL starter doesn’t really allow us to plant our flag on either side of the Daniel Jones dichotomy.
A) NONE of these are PFF stats. Their data is subjective an relies upon their own contextualization of each play as they assume it was intended to occur; these are from PFR, which is more like a genuine database.
B) I don't necessarily think that DJ is only a backup or should be discarded, at least not purely on merit. But I do despise the DJ acolytes who want to extend his scholarship at a higher price, into yet another rebuild, simply because they haven't run out of excuses for him yet.
At a certain point - before his rookie contract expires, he either needs to be really good or be really gone. That's the only way to get this rebuild done.
All of the statistical information, used to form a nice neat answer, regardless of the sources, is subjective
If you're predisposed to believe what you want to believe, you're going to skew what you see, either intentionally or subconsciously.
Unconscious Bias is a thing.
If you're predisposed to believe what you want to believe, you're going to skew what you see, either intentionally or subconsciously.
Unconscious Bias is a thing.
truly.. OLs are in crisis around the league. Many here refuse to acknowledge this fact.
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People pigeon pick to make their point. Perhaps I am old school but I believe you still win in the trenches and it's very clear to those who watch the games and have watched for decades that the Giants OL is, and has been, absolute trash.
However, you want stats so how about we simply google OL rankings for 2021?
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-week-10-offensive-line-rankings-2021
31st in the league according to PFF after week 10
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-line-units-entering-2021-season
PFF again before the season started, dead last.
https://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/analysis/2021-nfl-offensive-line-rankings-by-positional-unit/
Never heard of this site before but Giants rank 2nd to last again.
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/fantasy/news/2021-nfl-offensive-line-rankings-fantasy-football-sleepers-busts/1a383cwxkyin71wj5ggqcs1gdz
Sporting News
I could easily keep going but the point is that of the people that get paid to report on stuff like this, NOBODY has the Giants' OL as the "middle of the pack". NOBODY!
Ah, one of the days that BBI likes PFF.
Try running PFF metrics around these parts when they're not favorable, see how that goes.
Also, those are not isolated to pass pro.
First, as I said in my post I simply googled OL rankings. Second, there are 5 links and only 2 of the 5 are from PFF. Third, feel free to find an 'expert' to say the OL is "middle of the pack". Lastly, I didn't pigeon pick stats to support my argument. I simply googled OL rankings.
But sure, you're right random guy pushing stats that support your argument. The people that get paid to report on this stuff (and I) are wrong.
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In comment 15472709 M.S. said:
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You seem to want to force the Daniel Jones argument into a simple dichotomy: The BBIers who think he is fine vs the BBIers who think he needs to be discarded or is only a back-up talent at best.
You are obvious the latter, otherwise you would not have hauled out all these PFF stats.
But there’s a more nuanced view that goes like this:
The current O-line with one legit NFL starter doesn’t really allow us to plant our flag on either side of the Daniel Jones dichotomy.
A) NONE of these are PFF stats. Their data is subjective an relies upon their own contextualization of each play as they assume it was intended to occur; these are from PFR, which is more like a genuine database.
B) I don't necessarily think that DJ is only a backup or should be discarded, at least not purely on merit. But I do despise the DJ acolytes who want to extend his scholarship at a higher price, into yet another rebuild, simply because they haven't run out of excuses for him yet.
At a certain point - before his rookie contract expires, he either needs to be really good or be really gone. That's the only way to get this rebuild done.
This is the defining post...again, IMO.
All of the statistical information, used to form a nice neat answer, regardless of the sources, is subjective
How is that subjective?
This is a salary cap league. DJ's price tag is going to increase dramatically with his option and then his next contract. If our knowledge of his likelihood to win hasn't also increased at the same rate - EVEN IF IT'S NOT HIS FAULT - then we're absorbing unnecessary risk. Essentially, we'd be extending the risk of a rookie QB but at a veteran QB price tag. How does that make any sense?
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In comment 15472476 USAF NYG Fan said:
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People pigeon pick to make their point. Perhaps I am old school but I believe you still win in the trenches and it's very clear to those who watch the games and have watched for decades that the Giants OL is, and has been, absolute trash.
However, you want stats so how about we simply google OL rankings for 2021?
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-week-10-offensive-line-rankings-2021
31st in the league according to PFF after week 10
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-line-units-entering-2021-season
PFF again before the season started, dead last.
https://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/analysis/2021-nfl-offensive-line-rankings-by-positional-unit/
Never heard of this site before but Giants rank 2nd to last again.
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/fantasy/news/2021-nfl-offensive-line-rankings-fantasy-football-sleepers-busts/1a383cwxkyin71wj5ggqcs1gdz
Sporting News
I could easily keep going but the point is that of the people that get paid to report on stuff like this, NOBODY has the Giants' OL as the "middle of the pack". NOBODY!
Ah, one of the days that BBI likes PFF.
Try running PFF metrics around these parts when they're not favorable, see how that goes.
Also, those are not isolated to pass pro.
First, as I said in my post I simply googled OL rankings. Second, there are 5 links and only 2 of the 5 are from PFF. Third, feel free to find an 'expert' to say the OL is "middle of the pack". Lastly, I didn't pigeon pick stats to support my argument. I simply googled OL rankings.
But sure, you're right random guy pushing stats that support your argument. The people that get paid to report on this stuff (and I) are wrong.
I mean, there's only four links in your post, but I guess that's close enough.
And we don't need an expert. That's the point of what I collected. If the Giants' OL is at the bottom of the league in pass protection, it would show up in literally ANY of the metrics I provided; it doesn't.
But since you can't even count to five, that might have flown above your head.
1) Has Jones improved his ability to sense the pass rush, use his feet to buy time, and make his own life easier?
2) Do the coaches trust him to change the plays at the line and use his brain to put his line in better matchups?
3) Does he use his eyes and arm to punish defenses when they over pursue
4) Does he take advantage of the times he does receive good protection at a high clip
If the answer isn’t yes to all the above, I’d upgrade QB.
How is that subjective?
The statistics used by everyone, when used as a group to determine "how good" the OL may be, is subjective.
I don't have a problem keeping DJ for yr 4, I can also get behind making a decision to move on.
When I watch the games, I generally focus on the OL/DL. This team is not middle of any pack...if the argument is that the entire bottom 50% of the pack is poor...ok?
That has no relevance to the notion that the OL needs to be greatly improved.
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In comment 15472543 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15472476 USAF NYG Fan said:
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People pigeon pick to make their point. Perhaps I am old school but I believe you still win in the trenches and it's very clear to those who watch the games and have watched for decades that the Giants OL is, and has been, absolute trash.
However, you want stats so how about we simply google OL rankings for 2021?
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-week-10-offensive-line-rankings-2021
31st in the league according to PFF after week 10
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-line-units-entering-2021-season
PFF again before the season started, dead last.
https://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/analysis/2021-nfl-offensive-line-rankings-by-positional-unit/
Never heard of this site before but Giants rank 2nd to last again.
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/fantasy/news/2021-nfl-offensive-line-rankings-fantasy-football-sleepers-busts/1a383cwxkyin71wj5ggqcs1gdz
Sporting News
I could easily keep going but the point is that of the people that get paid to report on stuff like this, NOBODY has the Giants' OL as the "middle of the pack". NOBODY!
Ah, one of the days that BBI likes PFF.
Try running PFF metrics around these parts when they're not favorable, see how that goes.
Also, those are not isolated to pass pro.
First, as I said in my post I simply googled OL rankings. Second, there are 5 links and only 2 of the 5 are from PFF. Third, feel free to find an 'expert' to say the OL is "middle of the pack". Lastly, I didn't pigeon pick stats to support my argument. I simply googled OL rankings.
But sure, you're right random guy pushing stats that support your argument. The people that get paid to report on this stuff (and I) are wrong.
I mean, there's only four links in your post, but I guess that's close enough.
And we don't need an expert. That's the point of what I collected. If the Giants' OL is at the bottom of the league in pass protection, it would show up in literally ANY of the metrics I provided; it doesn't.
But since you can't even count to five, that might have flown above your head.
My mistake, I thought I decided to only post the first 5 links that came up but I guess I forgot the 5th. I was reading through around the 8th link when I decided to only do 5. All saying the same thing by the way. Giants' OL is trash.
Again, feel free to find an "expert" that agrees with you. Perhaps a Mathematician would agree with you instead? I'll stick with people that actually know football.
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In comment 15472745 USAF NYG Fan said:
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In comment 15472543 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15472476 USAF NYG Fan said:
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People pigeon pick to make their point. Perhaps I am old school but I believe you still win in the trenches and it's very clear to those who watch the games and have watched for decades that the Giants OL is, and has been, absolute trash.
However, you want stats so how about we simply google OL rankings for 2021?
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-week-10-offensive-line-rankings-2021
31st in the league according to PFF after week 10
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-line-units-entering-2021-season
PFF again before the season started, dead last.
https://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/analysis/2021-nfl-offensive-line-rankings-by-positional-unit/
Never heard of this site before but Giants rank 2nd to last again.
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/fantasy/news/2021-nfl-offensive-line-rankings-fantasy-football-sleepers-busts/1a383cwxkyin71wj5ggqcs1gdz
Sporting News
I could easily keep going but the point is that of the people that get paid to report on stuff like this, NOBODY has the Giants' OL as the "middle of the pack". NOBODY!
Ah, one of the days that BBI likes PFF.
Try running PFF metrics around these parts when they're not favorable, see how that goes.
Also, those are not isolated to pass pro.
First, as I said in my post I simply googled OL rankings. Second, there are 5 links and only 2 of the 5 are from PFF. Third, feel free to find an 'expert' to say the OL is "middle of the pack". Lastly, I didn't pigeon pick stats to support my argument. I simply googled OL rankings.
But sure, you're right random guy pushing stats that support your argument. The people that get paid to report on this stuff (and I) are wrong.
I mean, there's only four links in your post, but I guess that's close enough.
And we don't need an expert. That's the point of what I collected. If the Giants' OL is at the bottom of the league in pass protection, it would show up in literally ANY of the metrics I provided; it doesn't.
But since you can't even count to five, that might have flown above your head.
My mistake, I thought I decided to only post the first 5 links that came up but I guess I forgot the 5th. I was reading through around the 8th link when I decided to only do 5. All saying the same thing by the way. Giants' OL is trash.
Again, feel free to find an "expert" that agrees with you. Perhaps a Mathematician would agree with you instead? I'll stick with people that actually know football.
The stats know football.
If DJ was behind the worst line in the NFL, he'd be sacked the most, or be hurried the most, or be pressured the most, or be hit the most, or have the least time to throw.
Literally none of those things are what is actually happening.
You don't need an expert to decipher that.
So Solder's poor play is his own, but DJ's poor play is a reflection of others' poor play?
This is a fun game.
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Love to see who's actually worse than Solder as a starting OT.
So Solder's poor play is his own, but DJ's poor play is a reflection of others' poor play?
This is a fun game.
Let's try to stop putting words in others mouth and use some facts first. Is Solder absolutely terrible? There's a drastic cause and effect in a lineman constantly getting disrupted on the snap or beaten by a bull rush. And this is via pass pro and run blocking. He's straight up the worst starter on the team by far. Shelton is really bad too, but he's at least part time.
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In comment 15472837 Toth029 said:
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Love to see who's actually worse than Solder as a starting OT.
So Solder's poor play is his own, but DJ's poor play is a reflection of others' poor play?
This is a fun game.
Let's try to stop putting words in others mouth and use some facts first. Is Solder absolutely terrible? There's a drastic cause and effect in a lineman constantly getting disrupted on the snap or beaten by a bull rush. And this is via pass pro and run blocking. He's straight up the worst starter on the team by far. Shelton is really bad too, but he's at least part time.
I agree that Solder is terrible. And I can freely acknowledge that, even if he has an awful guard next to him who probably makes him look even worse than he is. And no one tries to make excuses for him, he's universally accepted as a liability on this roster.
Meanwhile, DJ can also be shown to be a liability, but blind optimism creates this need to provide a laundry list of excuses for his mediocrity.
The stats that were posted reveal what I've always thought to be true - which is that the Giants do have a poor Oline, but other teams do as well and are still able to navigate their offense to some level of success.
The Giants have a bad OLine AND don't know how to, or aren't able to, compensate for it.
Lot of people have a hard time understanding this. Even our so called "QB experts" on BBI. Be in 2nd and 5/6 yards and like magic the pass blocking improves.
because of his atrocious O-Line, but in the past has gone on record saying that Dak Prescot has benefitted quite a lot from an excellent offensive line?
That has no relevance to the notion that the OL needs to be greatly improved.
So you acknowledge that it could be as much as half the league has an OL that is as bad or worse than the Giants, but you aren’t at all curious as to why those teams are able to score more points than us?
because of his atrocious O-Line, but in the past has gone on record saying that Dak Prescot has benefitted quite a lot from an excellent offensive line?
This is a logical fallacy. You can do better.
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When I watch the games, I generally focus on the OL/DL. This team is not middle of any pack...if the argument is that the entire bottom 50% of the pack is poor...ok?
That has no relevance to the notion that the OL needs to be greatly improved.
So you acknowledge that it could be as much as half the league has an OL that is as bad or worse than the Giants, but you aren’t at all curious as to why those teams are able to score more points than us?
I said that if it were true, it doesn't change the fact that the Giants OL stinks.
We heard all offseason about how well the team of JJ and DG were doing and how we were on the upswing. Now it's just DG's fault? What about the "team" ?
You can pin the OL on DG but the Giants upper leadership will do everything possible to not have to acknowledge that they whiffed completely on a top 10 QB. For the worst reasons, seeing a guy that didn't have it between the ears to play the game and assuming they could fix that. The Giants are often guilty of both poor evaluation and overconfidence.
Which is what makes this dance where fans indulge the attempts to protect their egos so annoying.
I like to be optimistic, I don't like to be treated like I'm stupid.
Some of you want to keep getting yourself excited to eat 3 turd sandwiches for every 4 meals you sit down to (their approximate record in the DG era) as long as you and the Giants leadership that is better at selling you on their competence than their actual competence which you'd think would run out but sadly it hasn't.
I'm happy Dunk made this thread but something that gets lost in all this DG / DJ talk that shouldn't. If DJ is actually a good NFL QB and looks this bad, it's a massive failure top to bottom, coaching, personnel, culture. This to me just seems like another distraction from the real issue the Eagles played an absolute shit game and still almost beat us. Our franchise is a joke and has been a joke and it's almost as disheartening as the performance to see you all line up to make excuses for this team.
I can see it now, new GM comes in, still 50/50 it's Abrams. When we don't live up to expectations it will be WELL now we know JJ is bad. We need to give Abrams a chance to install HIS program! (or whoever else we bring in that went to BC and John Mara liked his handshake when he met him)
Enjoy the win, don't enjoy the win, I don't give a crap really. Just please stop deluding yourself that this team is going to be anything else than a bottom feeder until we see major changes.
This coming from someone who knew this whole thing was coming when DG was hired. If it helps you sleep at night knowing we have some outside shot to sneak into the playoffs great but know that any coverage you give the team selling these narratives to anyone else makes you part of the problem. We have an expensive roster, with little talent. A #2 and #6 pick that between their 7 seasons have shown themselves to be average players in 2. That's horrible.
You want to say we are doing something right if we get to the playoffs? Great. Enough of the excuse acrobatics, we as fans have to draw the line somewhere. Or your children are going to think the team that you grew up proud to be a fan of is a total joke
We had a chance to pick Herbert. He looks to be in that category. But we decided not to do that because we *didn't know what we had* in Jones. it is the worst example of mismanagement and we will be paying for that botch job for a generation.
I can see it now, new GM comes in, still 50/50 it's Abrams. When we don't live up to expectations it will be WELL now we know JJ is bad. We need to give Abrams a chance to install HIS program! (or whoever else we bring in that went to BC and John Mara liked his handshake when he met him)
Good overall post, NGD, but I wanted to highlight this because it is a scenario that really concerns me.
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I can see it now, new GM comes in, still 50/50 it's Abrams. When we don't live up to expectations it will be WELL now we know JJ is bad. We need to give Abrams a chance to install HIS program! (or whoever else we bring in that went to BC and John Mara liked his handshake when he met him)
Good overall post, NGD, but I wanted to highlight this because it is a scenario that really concerns me.
A new GM should be given time to execute upon his plan, but that should not prevent questionable moves to be questioned or if said moves look to be orchestrated in a fashion that points to no underlying plan either.
Presume the posters that defended Gettleman in this very fashion will be the first ones saying the new GM needs time as he had a big mess left to him by none other than DG himself...
It’s that the vast majority of the time either someone blows their protection that forces a quick pass, or the receiver isn’t open when Jones needs the help, or both.
Watching other teams, generally the better teams , escape or roll out and find help from their ‘ hot ‘ read for > 7 yards, while we barely get more than 2-3, similar to the frustration of our receivers a yard short of a 1st down spot., is a scheme deficiency in addition to the breakdowns.
It’s that the vast majority of the time either someone blows their protection that forces a quick pass, or the receiver isn’t open when Jones needs the help, or both.
Watching other teams, generally the better teams , escape or roll out and find help from their ‘ hot ‘ read for > 7 yards, while we barely get more than 2-3, similar to the frustration of our receivers a yard short of a 1st down spot., is a scheme deficiency in addition to the breakdowns.
Did it ever occur to you that DJ could also have hot reads that he doesn't find or hit?
How do you think Tom Brady -- the purported GOAT -- would look in this offense? Would he magically elevate the play of his teammates and turn the offense around?
How about we fix the *&^%$#@! offensive line for '22 and maybe get us some healthy WRs, TEs, and RBs, then see if Jones is still underwhelming?
I'm not saying Jones is "the man", I'm saying that it's incredibly difficult to evaluate him in this crap situation. Talk about failing to put someone in a position to succeed...
But I look at last year PFF had Giants ranked 31st
And this year week 10 of NFL season they had them 31st.
While PFFF or any stat can't be 100% believed to a degree I think they are using/have used more stats to develop their numbers than the OP is presenting here.
I think near the bottom is about right for this OL. And what PFF was showing kind of supports what I believe I see.
How do you think Tom Brady -- the purported GOAT -- would look in this offense? Would he magically elevate the play of his teammates and turn the offense around?
How about we fix the *&^%$#@! offensive line for '22 and maybe get us some healthy WRs, TEs, and RBs, then see if Jones is still underwhelming?
I'm not saying Jones is "the man", I'm saying that it's incredibly difficult to evaluate him in this crap situation. Talk about failing to put someone in a position to succeed...
Cutting down turnovers by a ton?
No player in the NFL has more turnovers than DJ since he entered the league.
How do you think Tom Brady -- the purported GOAT -- would look in this offense? Would he magically elevate the play of his teammates and turn the offense around?
How about we fix the *&^%$#@! offensive line for '22 and maybe get us some healthy WRs, TEs, and RBs, then see if Jones is still underwhelming?
Tom Brady actually makes the case against Jones and QB's of middling skills. He's played in the league for 22 seasons, behind several different offensive lines and to great success. The likelihood that Brady had superb talent across his OLine in each of those 22 seasons is very low.
Brady is the primary example that QB's almost as much as anything else can have an impact on the effectiveness of the line in front of them. Great QB's can mask a lot of deficiencies.
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in which no QB could succeed, ergo, he sucks. No running game, 2/3 top receivers out, multiple TEs injured, and o-line is awful. And he gets no credit for cutting down turnovers by a ton.
How do you think Tom Brady -- the purported GOAT -- would look in this offense? Would he magically elevate the play of his teammates and turn the offense around?
How about we fix the *&^%$#@! offensive line for '22 and maybe get us some healthy WRs, TEs, and RBs, then see if Jones is still underwhelming?
Tom Brady actually makes the case against Jones and QB's of middling skills. He's played in the league for 22 seasons, behind several different offensive lines and to great success. The likelihood that Brady had superb talent across his OLine in each of those 22 seasons is very low.
Brady is the primary example that QB's almost as much as anything else can have an impact on the effectiveness of the line in front of them. Great QB's can mask a lot of deficiencies.
In fact, Tom Brady routinely helped turn troubled lines around. And let's not forget Solder was part of back to back AFC champions just prior to joining the Giants. And when Solder got here everyone lamented he was trash. The very next year. The QB has something to do with line performance.
I believe the Athletic did a piece about how Brady's OLs would go to other teams and take a hit in performance.
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which generally appear to put us only in the middle of the pack.
It’s that the vast majority of the time either someone blows their protection that forces a quick pass, or the receiver isn’t open when Jones needs the help, or both.
Watching other teams, generally the better teams , escape or roll out and find help from their ‘ hot ‘ read for > 7 yards, while we barely get more than 2-3, similar to the frustration of our receivers a yard short of a 1st down spot., is a scheme deficiency in addition to the breakdowns.
Did it ever occur to you that DJ could also have hot reads that he doesn't find or hit?
Dod it rver occur to you that he isnt. This is the problem with much of the criticism of jones. Its based on assumptions re reads, progressions etc that we as fans no nothing about. What we as fans can see if an ol that routinely gives up quick presdure without teams havibg to blitz. An offense that uses almost deep routes. An offense that has to keep RBs and TEs to help block, limiting options. And an OL that cannot run block to relieve pressure on the passing game. And an OL that routinely puts the offense in long down and distance due to penalties, sacks, and sacks.
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In comment 15473130 Joe Beckwith said:
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which generally appear to put us only in the middle of the pack.
It’s that the vast majority of the time either someone blows their protection that forces a quick pass, or the receiver isn’t open when Jones needs the help, or both.
Watching other teams, generally the better teams , escape or roll out and find help from their ‘ hot ‘ read for > 7 yards, while we barely get more than 2-3, similar to the frustration of our receivers a yard short of a 1st down spot., is a scheme deficiency in addition to the breakdowns.
Did it ever occur to you that DJ could also have hot reads that he doesn't find or hit?
Dod it rver occur to you that he isnt. This is the problem with much of the criticism of jones. Its based on assumptions re reads, progressions etc that we as fans no nothing about. What we as fans can see if an ol that routinely gives up quick presdure without teams havibg to blitz. An offense that uses almost deep routes. An offense that has to keep RBs and TEs to help block, limiting options. And an OL that cannot run block to relieve pressure on the passing game. And an OL that routinely puts the offense in long down and distance due to penalties, sacks, and sacks.
The whole point of this thread is that there are many situations just as bad...
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In comment 15473134 NoGainDayne said:
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In comment 15473130 Joe Beckwith said:
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which generally appear to put us only in the middle of the pack.
It’s that the vast majority of the time either someone blows their protection that forces a quick pass, or the receiver isn’t open when Jones needs the help, or both.
Watching other teams, generally the better teams , escape or roll out and find help from their ‘ hot ‘ read for > 7 yards, while we barely get more than 2-3, similar to the frustration of our receivers a yard short of a 1st down spot., is a scheme deficiency in addition to the breakdowns.
Did it ever occur to you that DJ could also have hot reads that he doesn't find or hit?
Dod it rver occur to you that he isnt. This is the problem with much of the criticism of jones. Its based on assumptions re reads, progressions etc that we as fans no nothing about. What we as fans can see if an ol that routinely gives up quick presdure without teams havibg to blitz. An offense that uses almost deep routes. An offense that has to keep RBs and TEs to help block, limiting options. And an OL that cannot run block to relieve pressure on the passing game. And an OL that routinely puts the offense in long down and distance due to penalties, sacks, and sacks.
The whole point of this thread is that there are many situations just as bad...
I yhink "many" is an overstaement. There are some. I watch a lot of games and the giants OL is among the worst ive seen on a regular basis.
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In comment 15473134 NoGainDayne said:
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In comment 15473130 Joe Beckwith said:
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which generally appear to put us only in the middle of the pack.
It’s that the vast majority of the time either someone blows their protection that forces a quick pass, or the receiver isn’t open when Jones needs the help, or both.
Watching other teams, generally the better teams , escape or roll out and find help from their ‘ hot ‘ read for > 7 yards, while we barely get more than 2-3, similar to the frustration of our receivers a yard short of a 1st down spot., is a scheme deficiency in addition to the breakdowns.
Did it ever occur to you that DJ could also have hot reads that he doesn't find or hit?
Dod it rver occur to you that he isnt. This is the problem with much of the criticism of jones. Its based on assumptions re reads, progressions etc that we as fans no nothing about. What we as fans can see if an ol that routinely gives up quick presdure without teams havibg to blitz. An offense that uses almost deep routes. An offense that has to keep RBs and TEs to help block, limiting options. And an OL that cannot run block to relieve pressure on the passing game. And an OL that routinely puts the offense in long down and distance due to penalties, sacks, and sacks.
The whole point of this thread is that there are many situations just as bad...
And i yhink the point of the OP was that the giants ol OL is not as bad as some fans think. That its more middle of the road
This skews all these stats and helps to band aid the reality which is our offensive line has routinely played horrible all season.
This. Also those stats don’t consider blitz %. No idea what the stats are, but teams most likely don’t often send extra blitzers against the Giants because they don’t need to.
Plain and simple, I don’t care what the stats are, Jones has no time to throw and the RBs have very little room to run and that is THE main issue with this offense.
Holy f*ck*ng sh*t.
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But not all of it. We've done everything under the sun to help our offensive line this year and protect them against themselves. We've ran max protect, we've ran play action, we've booted and rolled Jones to buy more time.
This skews all these stats and helps to band aid the reality which is our offensive line has routinely played horrible all season.
This. Also those stats don’t consider blitz %. No idea what the stats are, but teams most likely don’t often send extra blitzers against the Giants because they don’t need to.
Plain and simple, I don’t care what the stats are, Jones has no time to throw and the RBs have very little room to run and that is THE main issue with this offense.
Heck they've won with a 3 man rush. Why blitz?
The NFL game broadcast doesn’t lend itself to very good observation, especially when you have guys in the booth looking for examples that align with what they drew up in the production meetings.
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But not all of it. We've done everything under the sun to help our offensive line this year and protect them against themselves. We've ran max protect, we've ran play action, we've booted and rolled Jones to buy more time.
This skews all these stats and helps to band aid the reality which is our offensive line has routinely played horrible all season.
This. Also those stats don’t consider blitz %. No idea what the stats are, but teams most likely don’t often send extra blitzers against the Giants because they don’t need to.
Plain and simple, I don’t care what the stats are, Jones has no time to throw and the RBs have very little room to run and that is THE main issue with this offense.
The Giants have faced the third most blitzes in the league this season.
What's the next excuse?
Link - ( New Window )
I bet the Giants are among the leaders in plays where defenders are untouched rushing the passer. Those disaster plays stay with some fans.
Relative to the league the Giants don’t have tremendously bad pass pro.
The real question comes down to whether the Giants have good enough pass pro for Daniel Jones.
And answering that question requires the emotional maturity to contemplate if Jones is a major part of the problem.
Do you spend your Summers On the practice field and your Falls on the sidelines?
I generally respect your opinion but you are condescending to the group and we don't know that your credentials should allow the space to do that.
There's nothing wrong with you using statistics To support your case but the statistics are lacking a great deal of important information.
Do you spend your Summers On the practice field and your Falls on the sidelines?
I generally respect your opinion but you are condescending to the group and we don't know that your credentials should allow the space to do that.
There's nothing wrong with you using statistics To support your case but the statistics are lacking a great deal of important information.
I think you’re misreading my post. I think it requires the requisite emotional maturity to debate what part of the problem Daniel Jones plays. And I think a number of posters on both sides of the debate let their emotions get whipped up when he’s discussed. Peruse any thread on the topic and you’ll see lots of crying.
I don’t coach football, but I do run business analytics at a multi-billion dollar operation, and my first rule is: look at the data, then figure out why.
When posters respond to data with a general sense of I don’t care what the numbers say, my eyes tell me they are the worst — I know that’s a boring debate I don’t want any part of.
I think a fair frame for the discussion is: relative to the league, the Giants are average in a number of pass protection criteria. Why then are they so bad passing the ball?
I think you’re misreading my post. I think it requires the requisite emotional maturity to debate what part of the problem Daniel Jones plays. And I think a number of posters on both sides of the debate let their emotions get whipped up when he’s discussed. Peruse any thread on the topic and you’ll see lots of crying.
I don’t coach football, but I do run business analytics at a multi-billion dollar operation, and my first rule is: look at the data, then figure out why.
When posters respond to data with a general sense of I don’t care what the numbers say, my eyes tell me they are the worst — I know that’s a boring debate I don’t want any part of.
I think a fair frame for the discussion is: relative to the league, the Giants are average in a number of pass protection criteria. Why then are they so bad passing the ball?
...I can see why the analytics lead in your arguments.
I also see that you aren't really comparing the Giants OL, in terms of data, to other teams' data...if I read you correctly, you're looking for a correlation between the 2 sets of data, OL issues and points scored. (?)
As you pointed out, data is a starting point in your world. In my business, I also start with data.
In football, I start with my eyes. I have been fortunate enough to coach with the OL group this past season. This doesn't make me any kind of expert, but it does allow me to spend time breaking down sideline vs endzone views of every snap with other OL coaches.
Situational/schematic/talent differences of the defenses make all the difference.
I can face a myriad of blitz schemes and have time to throw, I can face virtually no blitzes and the QB is under duress all game.
Also, the effectiveness of the run game has a huge impact on the passing game, especially from that standpoint of % of effective passing plays.
If the OC is playing the quick game we may have a high % of effective passes. If he's confident that the OL is playing well, he may be inclined to take more shots, lowering the %.
The ydg and scoring in each situation may be the same...
...the ground game is the difference maker.
As I said earlier in the thread, it does not matter, to me, where the Giants OL is with regards to their statistical position vs. the field.
DJ has the ability to make off schedule plays. He has arm talent and can run. He is fearless...likely to a fault.
But because he does not have time to process, or lacks the ability to do it before his back foot hits the ground, he probably has no future with the Giants.
I think that he may go elsewhere and shine. But because this team was built ass-backwards, I think that a new GM likely has to move on.
Because the context arose from a conversation centered on Jones, and how he was being forced to operate behind the worst OL in the NFL (some went so far as to call it "historically bad."
And I don't dispute that the run blocking is bad, and that it does create many unfavorable situations for the offense (DJ included), the point of the thread was to illustrate specifically that the Giants' OL is nowhere near the worst in the league when it comes to pass pro.
Those are definitely bad results, but there’s another variable in that equation which is the running backs.
It’s difficult to assign cause when only looking at results.
My sense is Jones has the talent to be a long term starter in the NFL. I think success for first round quarterbacks is typically dictated by the stability of the coaching and management.
I don’t think the Giants have a well architected team, very good talent, nor good coaching or game planning.
I think the failures are bigger than bad offensive line.
I think the Giants could improve the line, and we’d see less plays fall apart. But in aggregate I don’t believe just improving the line is going to equate to a good offense.
My sense is Jones has the talent to be a long term starter in the NFL. I think success for first round quarterbacks is typically dictated by the stability of the coaching and management.
I don’t think the Giants have a well architected team, very good talent, nor good coaching or game planning.
I think the failures are bigger than bad offensive line.
I think the Giants could improve the line, and we’d see less plays fall apart. But in aggregate I don’t believe just improving the line is going to equate to a good offense.
Work to be done.
Garrett cut the balls off the offense
Stats are also skewed because they don't take into account how many rushers the defense is sending. We've seen this line give up consistent pressure against 4 rushers, and even 3 rushers.
These stats also don't address run blocking at all.
This isn't to say that these states are trash or meaningless, just that they don't (can't) tell the whole story.
My sense is Jones has the talent to be a long term starter in the NFL. I think success for first round quarterbacks is typically dictated by the stability of the coaching and management.
I don’t think the Giants have a well architected team, very good talent, nor good coaching or game planning.
I think the failures are bigger than bad offensive line.
I think the Giants could improve the line, and we’d see less plays fall apart. But in aggregate I don’t believe just improving the line is going to equate to a good offense.
Christian I agree with everything you posted here. That's a great post. I personally do think that actual consistent average OL play and better pass rush has right in the mix in the NFC playoff picture though, even with Garrett still in as OC.
My sense is Jones has the talent to be a long term starter in the NFL. I think success for first round quarterbacks is typically dictated by the stability of the coaching and management.
I don’t think the Giants have a well architected team, very good talent, nor good coaching or game planning.
I think the failures are bigger than bad offensive line.
I think the Giants could improve the line, and we’d see less plays fall apart. But in aggregate I don’t believe just improving the line is going to equate to a good offense.
Respectfully, what *talent* has Jones shown that would project him as a long term starter in the NFL? It is comical at this point that people keep making these assertions. He ranks in the bottom 10 of every important statistical metric and he fails the eye test in almost every regard.
What do you see? A few pretty spirals deep down the middle? Every pro QB can do that. Every backup.
People are already clamoring for Jones to be replaced, so what team would have him as a long term starter? A dumber one than the Giants? Is that what you are banking on?
If you are the 25th ranked QB in the NFL, you are fodder. It's not good enough for any team. You are a guy that gets cycled in when you have a QB crisis, and cycled back out when you find a kid with upside.
Jones is not a long term starter in the NFL. He is more likely to be out of the NFL in three years than to be any one team's long term starter.
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Brown_Hornet — First, I’d like to acknowledge/express my appreciation for you being a respectful and fun poster to debate football. I enjoy your posts.
My sense is Jones has the talent to be a long term starter in the NFL. I think success for first round quarterbacks is typically dictated by the stability of the coaching and management.
I don’t think the Giants have a well architected team, very good talent, nor good coaching or game planning.
I think the failures are bigger than bad offensive line.
I think the Giants could improve the line, and we’d see less plays fall apart. But in aggregate I don’t believe just improving the line is going to equate to a good offense.
Respectfully, what *talent* has Jones shown that would project him as a long term starter in the NFL? It is comical at this point that people keep making these assertions. He ranks in the bottom 10 of every important statistical metric and he fails the eye test in almost every regard.
What do you see? A few pretty spirals deep down the middle? Every pro QB can do that. Every backup.
People are already clamoring for Jones to be replaced, so what team would have him as a long term starter? A dumber one than the Giants? Is that what you are banking on?
If you are the 25th ranked QB in the NFL, you are fodder. It's not good enough for any team. You are a guy that gets cycled in when you have a QB crisis, and cycled back out when you find a kid with upside.
Jones is not a long term starter in the NFL. He is more likely to be out of the NFL in three years than to be any one team's long term starter.
Let us know when you are sitting as a paid employee on the staff of an NFL team. Maybe then the absolutes and condescending language you use to rehash this OPINION over and over and over and over again will be more readily accepted.
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In comment 15474054 christian said:
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Brown_Hornet — First, I’d like to acknowledge/express my appreciation for you being a respectful and fun poster to debate football. I enjoy your posts.
My sense is Jones has the talent to be a long term starter in the NFL. I think success for first round quarterbacks is typically dictated by the stability of the coaching and management.
I don’t think the Giants have a well architected team, very good talent, nor good coaching or game planning.
I think the failures are bigger than bad offensive line.
I think the Giants could improve the line, and we’d see less plays fall apart. But in aggregate I don’t believe just improving the line is going to equate to a good offense.
Respectfully, what *talent* has Jones shown that would project him as a long term starter in the NFL? It is comical at this point that people keep making these assertions. He ranks in the bottom 10 of every important statistical metric and he fails the eye test in almost every regard.
What do you see? A few pretty spirals deep down the middle? Every pro QB can do that. Every backup.
People are already clamoring for Jones to be replaced, so what team would have him as a long term starter? A dumber one than the Giants? Is that what you are banking on?
If you are the 25th ranked QB in the NFL, you are fodder. It's not good enough for any team. You are a guy that gets cycled in when you have a QB crisis, and cycled back out when you find a kid with upside.
Jones is not a long term starter in the NFL. He is more likely to be out of the NFL in three years than to be any one team's long term starter.
Let us know when you are sitting as a paid employee on the staff of an NFL team. Maybe then the absolutes and condescending language you use to rehash this OPINION over and over and over and over again will be more readily accepted.
So now I have to be a paid employee of an NFL team to state an opinion on a message board? I think you have forgotten this is a fan forum. I'm sure you are a nice guy irl but on here you act like a fucking douchebag. I give you observations about the team and the players, and you attack me, literally unprovoked. Hey Johnny, sometimes you are going to encounter people who don't agree with you and have different opinions than you. And I can tell you as a professional writer and producer there is literally nothing *condescending* in that reply. You are just being a sensitive prick.
And my opinion is as good as anybody's on here. I have overseen large teams and operations in an entertainment field. I have made consequential personnel decisions. I have been a sports fan for 5 decades. I have forgotten more sports than you have probably consumed. And believe it or not I am open to honest debate and disagreement, and open to changing my mind. But - "you're condescending" and other personal attacks just indicate you have no counter.
Let us know when you are sitting as a paid employee on the staff of an NFL team. Maybe then the absolutes and condescending language you use to rehash this OPINION over and over and over and over again will be more readily accepted.
So now I have to be a paid employee of an NFL team to state an opinion on a message board? I think you have forgotten this is a fan forum. I'm sure you are a nice guy irl but on here you act like a fucking douchebag. I give you observations about the team and the players, and you attack me, literally unprovoked. Hey Johnny, sometimes you are going to encounter people who don't agree with you and have different opinions than you. And I can tell you as a professional writer and producer there is literally nothing *condescending* in that reply. You are just being a sensitive prick.
And my opinion is as good as anybody's on here. I have overseen large teams and operations in an entertainment field. I have made consequential personnel decisions. I have been a sports fan for 5 decades. I have forgotten more sports than you have probably consumed. And believe it or not I am open to honest debate and disagreement, and open to changing my mind. But - "you're condescending" and other personal attacks just indicate you have no counter.
Reread my post. I have absolutely zero problems with people having opinions. And there are plenty of times myself and many, many others have posted rebuttals to your "opinion" over. And over. And over. And over. That said, I get tend to get triggered by the way you post in absolutes and in a condescending way like people are fools if they disagree with you. I also get triggered by the way you literally post it on EVERY. SINGLE. THREAD. even if the OP has nothing to do with the QB. You are condescending and frankly a bit rude, and you responded here in kind.... lol. So I guess, that is why I post like a "Dooshbag" to you. And by the way, I highly doubt you have forgotten more sports than I have consumed. And also that said, I would guess if we were sitting down over a beer debating it, we would probably get along just fine... lol.
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Let us know when you are sitting as a paid employee on the staff of an NFL team. Maybe then the absolutes and condescending language you use to rehash this OPINION over and over and over and over again will be more readily accepted.
So now I have to be a paid employee of an NFL team to state an opinion on a message board? I think you have forgotten this is a fan forum. I'm sure you are a nice guy irl but on here you act like a fucking douchebag. I give you observations about the team and the players, and you attack me, literally unprovoked. Hey Johnny, sometimes you are going to encounter people who don't agree with you and have different opinions than you. And I can tell you as a professional writer and producer there is literally nothing *condescending* in that reply. You are just being a sensitive prick.
And my opinion is as good as anybody's on here. I have overseen large teams and operations in an entertainment field. I have made consequential personnel decisions. I have been a sports fan for 5 decades. I have forgotten more sports than you have probably consumed. And believe it or not I am open to honest debate and disagreement, and open to changing my mind. But - "you're condescending" and other personal attacks just indicate you have no counter.
Reread my post. I have absolutely zero problems with people having opinions. And there are plenty of times myself and many, many others have posted rebuttals to your "opinion" over. And over. And over. And over. That said, I get tend to get triggered by the way you post in absolutes and in a condescending way like people are fools if they disagree with you. I also get triggered by the way you literally post it on EVERY. SINGLE. THREAD. even if the OP has nothing to do with the QB. You are condescending and frankly a bit rude, and you responded here in kind.... lol. So I guess, that is why I post like a "Dooshbag" to you. And by the way, I highly doubt you have forgotten more sports than I have consumed. And also that said, I would guess if we were sitting down over a beer debating it, we would probably get along just fine... lol.
Yes I think we would. Maybe my style is arrogant. It is challenging to convey tone in an email, in a text and in a message board post. I actually never contend that Jones "can never" be great. But at this stage I feel it is a low probability event that a big organization like the Giants can't bank on. I'm all about playing smart probabilities. And I am ok with keeping Jones next season, but we should bring in competition. That's where I'm at with him.
As to his talent.. the numbers and eye test agree he isn't good. So I asked chrstian, what is he referring to. I'd like to know.
I want the Giants to be smart and build a dynasty. I want us to have the best QB in the league. Or at least top-8. We should be searching until we accomplish that.
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In football, I start with my eyes. I have been fortunate enough to coach with the OL group this past season. This doesn't make me any kind of expert, but it does allow me to spend time breaking down sideline vs endzone views of every snap with other OL coaches.
DJ has the ability to make off schedule plays. He has arm talent and can run. He is fearless...likely to a fault.
But because he does not have time to process, or lacks the ability to do it before his back foot hits the ground, he probably has no future with the Giants.
See I think you say you start with your eyes but you don't realize how tainted your own sample is with a desire for DJ to be good and seeing it through that lens.
A few things jump out at me that I really disagree with in this longer post. The first is you say fearless like it's a good thing and also a fact? When I look at Jones I often see a jittery indecisive player that at times is so rushed he makes horrible throws and decisions. People that are "fearless" you don't see do that. I never once saw Brett Farve get jittery and rush a throw. I saw him be overconfident and try to squeeze balls in tight windows or sail throws but never once did I see him look nervous. He could take a pounding a whole game and still not be jittery. Frankly for all Jones' "smarts" it doesn't show up in his game. How many times does it look like Jones has made a good hot read? Has anyone ever seen him adjust a play at the line that had a good result? When I think of a smart QB I think of a guy that is looking off a safety to throw it somewhere else. I think of a QB that audibles to a run play or points out a blitzer for his line. No doubt his situation is non ideal but for all the propaganda from Jints central on Jones brains and hard work, it doesn't show up on the field. When he does make elite plays it seems to be with his legs on designed runs. Not improvising really. And to boot he is definitely a great athlete but how much more elusive is Big Ben in the pocket than DJ? Same goes for Rodgers. What good is all that athleticism when you often get sacked acting like you never saw the guy that was about to hit you? Also I don't care how much you make an elite play every once in a while if you often miss easy ones and make some of the most boneheaded plays I've ever seen. Turn the ball over more than any other QB. It's like complicating a basketball player for hitting fadeaway 3's while they routinely miss layups. That's actually how you end up on the bench, not the most important player on the field.
And honestly that's where I'm going to have a rare disagreement with Christian as well. I wouldn't call DJ talented at all. I'd call him a great athlete. Talent at the QB position to me is much more about leadership, decision making, actually preparedness that shows up on the field not lots of talk of how hard a worker you are. You could name lots of different attributes of QBs that display talent on the field. What they all have in common is poise and a plan to do well, a plan of attack. And DJ has never shown that ability. And I think that is a big difference. Other positions athletic ability and talent are much more closely aligned. But you can't be a talented player without the ability to achieve consistently IMO.
The majority of everything I have said on this thread has had to do with the OL.
What I have said about DJ is that while I think he has tools he has had trouble processing. I also believe that if he’s here in 2022, that it’s likely his last season with NY.
Without going through the entire post I will finish with the way you ended, “ But you can't be a talented player without the ability to achieve consistently IMO.”
I appreciate that you recognize this as an opinion albeit, an inaccurate one. A player can be all kinds of talented and still be inconsistent.
I think that maybe what you meant to say was, in order to be considered a truly good player, he need to be consistent… and with that I agree.
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I don't know how you can talk about Oline play and not discuss run blocking. Currently we are 26th in total yards, 27th in YPC and a 3 way tie for 29th in rushing TD's.
Because the context arose from a conversation centered on Jones, and how he was being forced to operate behind the worst OL in the NFL (some went so far as to call it "historically bad."
And I don't dispute that the run blocking is bad, and that it does create many unfavorable situations for the offense (DJ included), the point of the thread was to illustrate specifically that the Giants' OL is nowhere near the worst in the league when it comes to pass pro.
Right but they feed into each other. I mean you can't start a thread about Oline play and not mention run blocking, roughly 50% of their job. If you want to use it as a critique of Jones and say they are decent at pass blocking that's one thing. However, even with that I'd say they feed into each other. If your run game sucks, that means they game plan for our offense differently. For example, if we had a great run game, they stack the box, which would leave the passing game more open. Since our run game sucks we are one dimensional.
The Giants opponents are blitzing a lot and the Giants aren’t giving up the consistent pressure and hits you’d think would go hand-in-hand with the offensive futility we’re seeing.
So what else is possibly going on? I think it’s possible:
- The Giants give up a few dramatic breakdowns per game where the quarterback and running back get cut down unblocked, which warps the perception of frequency
- The Giants get Jones out of the pocket by design, mitigating pressure, but this might not be a high success position for him
- The Giants are keeping a tight end to block, taking a tight end out of the pass options
- Jones misses a pretty good share of opportunities with adequate protection
That’s where I’d look.
So when the OL breaks down with a penalty, unforced error and there is one negative yardage play on a drive, it’s almost always a punt, or settling for a FG if in red zone.
No hard feelings whatsoever..
The majority of everything I have said on this thread has had to do with the OL.
What I have said about DJ is that while I think he has tools he has had trouble processing. I also believe that if he’s here in 2022, that it’s likely his last season with NY.
Without going through the entire post I will finish with the way you ended, “ But you can't be a talented player without the ability to achieve consistently IMO.”
I appreciate that you recognize this as an opinion albeit, an inaccurate one. A player can be all kinds of talented and still be inconsistent.
I think that maybe what you meant to say was, in order to be considered a truly good player, he need to be consistent… and with that I agree.
I think you really want DJ to be good so your brain contorts the rest of that story to preserve that narrative. I don't think you are the only one that does this by any means.
Also I was trying to make a point about talent that football isn't just about slinging a ball around, especially as a QB. Trying to make the distinction that I feel a player is more talented if they can elude a bunch of rushers vs. see an opening and take it 70 yards. The plays he does well on seem to be more well called than anything dynamic or special he's doing other than displaying his athleticism. And even if he had the best arm in the world which he doesn't, I would say there is a different between like "arm talent" so to speak and like on the field football talent. Perhaps what I'm saying more specifically is all the arm talent in the world doesn't really matter if you don't have talent between the ears. So any talent we are talking about in terms of his legs or arms or whatever is kind of rendered useless by his mental shortcomings on the field and with his awareness. You mentioned improvising as well and that is very confusing to me because I feel like especially relative to his athletic talents he's one of the worst improvisors I've ever seen
I also believe that he will eventually show that he is better than his current stat-line says he is...albeit, with another team.
If he's the QB in 2022, I'll root for him. If not, I'll wish him well.
We have seen, as I try and recall a few rebuilds, teams have great success getting the rest of the team in order prior to selecting their franchise QB...
...IMV, the Giants have failed at self evaluation and intentionally or not, built the team the opposite way.
The team has more to do than making a decision on any one piece...even if it is the most important piece.
Jones remind a lot of Alex Smith. Over drafted, and not the type of talent you’d expect at the top of the first round. But in a very QB friendly system, with more talent, he’s a guy who can stick around in the league.
I don’t think the timeframes align for the Giants. I don’t see a Reid, Kingsbury, etc. anytime soon running the offense. And the Giants in all likelihood will replace four starters on the offensive line.
I think it would be criminal to execute his 5th year option and guarantee him 20M+ in 2023.
Unless there is a trade available, there’s no financial upside to cutting him, so I’d sign a more competitive backup and monitor the pre-draft progress of the QBs. That process is so much more informative in my view than the season.
I don’t think the Giants have a particularly tragic offensive line — I think they have two backups playing (Price and Skura) because of injuries and two starters who don’t belong in the NFL (Solder and Hernandez).
Under those circumstances I’m actually surprised who functional the line has been.
Plenty of blame to go around with Offensive Line issues, but shouldn't understate how little our coaching staff develops guys at that position.
..."I don’t think the Giants have a particularly tragic offensive line — I think they have two backups playing (Price and Skura) because of injuries and two starters who don’t belong in the NFL (Solder and Hernandez)."
And, we agree on the Right Side. My issue is, C & LG. Gates may be done and we still know little about Lemieux.
To me, having confidence in only 1/5 of the OL is tragic.
Gates is the one scouting feather in Gettleman’s cap, and I think he’s got a long road back. That’s a bad break. Lemieux doesn’t strike me as an above average multi-year starter.
I agree the Giants have 1 position locked down, and 4 current starters who are not under contract next year.
That said, the current rag tag group (that will not return likely) is treading more water than some fans are able to admit.
Brass tax I look at this way: the Giants either need much better QB play or much better line play. What’s the best odds move to get that?
Gates is the one scouting feather in Gettleman’s cap, and I think he’s got a long road back. That’s a bad break. Lemieux doesn’t strike me as an above average multi-year starter.
I agree the Giants have 1 position locked down, and 4 current starters who are not under contract next year.
That said, the current rag tag group (that will not return likely) is treading more water than some fans are able to admit.
Brass tax I look at this way: the Giants either need much better QB play or much better line play. What’s the best odds move to get that?
Hopefully the new management group knows the answer to your question!
I mean look at someone like David Carr who was certainly like that in the NFL and had a terrible supporting cast. In college he was fantastic. Alex Smith lit it up in college. Even Tannehill had a stronger senior year than Jones. No one has turned the ball over like him, no one. And I could certainly see him being successful I just feel like protecting the ball is the most basic thing a QB has to do and he's going to struggle with that at least a bit no matter how good his coach is IMO.
I think Shurmur was a perfect fit for him — and although I understand firing him — my view was always the GM and head coach should get 3 years.
I won’t be surprised if Daniel Jones is a starter for a handful of years on a Pat Shurmur offense in the future.
I think he’s got a Teddy Bridgewater type career ahead of him.
That's where I think we agree that ultimately the problem is our assessment systems. It too often seems like the owners care more about what kind of story they can sell and their comfort level / control. Over getting to the root of these problems. I think Shurmur also used Barkley better and that could have changed things...
Their media puppets went hard after Shurmur to protect DG / management.
I think Shurmur was a perfect fit for him — and although I understand firing him — my view was always the GM and head coach should get 3 years.
I won’t be surprised if Daniel Jones is a starter for a handful of years on a Pat Shurmur offense in the future.
I think he’s got a Teddy Bridgewater type career ahead of him.
I think this is a solid take. I don't see us moving on from him yet, because what are our options really. Not many good ones. Keep him for next year and keep building the team. OL and Pass rush makes this a pretty good team. I just don't see a short timeframe to fix the OL with the Gates injury. Andrew Thomas seems to be the only legit quality lineman at this point. Maddening. The Gettleman hire has really set this franchise back. They really needed to bring in someone with a plan well beyond ust trying to win with Eli.