I put this together for a reply in the Terps callout thread, but realize that many people may be avoiding what they assume is just a callout thread.
In any case, as we've gone through the litany of explanations for DJ's inconsistent and/or middling performances, it seems that the only one that really remains active is that DJ is hampered by what many fans want to describe as the worst OL in football.
There are a number of metrics that can be used to track OL play, particularly as it relates to the passing game. Here are a few that I'm looking at:
1) Sacks per game (since we're still in the middle of bye weeks, not every team has played the same amount of games, so per game average is more fair)
2) Sack percentage (this does not need to be altered since it is already adjusted for pass attempts)
3) Pressures per game
4) Pressure percentage
5) Hurries per game
6) Hits per game
7) Average pocket time
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SACKS PER GAME
1. Vikings (1.36)
2. Buccaneers (1.36)
3. Rams (1.55)
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16. Giants (2.09)
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30. Ravens (3.27)
31. Seahawks (3.30)
32. Bears (3.36)
SACK PERCENTAGE
1. Buccaneers (3.1%)
2. Vikings (3.5%)
3. Bills (3.9%)
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14. Giants (5.6%)
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30. Browns (8.6%)
31. Seahawks (10.3%)
32. Bears (10.7%)
PRESSURES PER GAME
1. Rams (4.8)
2. Buccaneers (5.1)
3. Patriots (6.3)
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19. Giants (8.8)
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30. Vikings (10.3)
31. Jets (10.4)
32. Broncos (10.5)
PRESSURE PERCENTAGE
1. Buccaneers (11.5%)
2. Rams (12.3%)
3. Steelers (16.4%)
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16. Giants (22.1%)
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30. Panthers (26.2%)
31. Seahawks (27.2%)
32. Broncos (28.4%)
HURRIES PER GAME
1. Patriots (1.25)
2. Rams (1.27)
3. Titans (1.33)
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16. Giants (3.45)
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30. Broncos (4.54)
31. Bills (4.73)
32. Vikings (4.91)
HITS PER GAME
1. Browns (1.42)
2. Cardinals (1.45)
3. Buccaneers (1.73)
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21. Giants (3.27)
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30. Vikings (4.00)
31. Colts (4.58)
32. Falcons (5.09)
AVERAGE POCKET TIME (in seconds)
1. Washington (2.5)
2. Eagles (2.4)
3. Seahawks (2.4)
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13. Giants (2.2)
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30. Texans (2.0)
31. Packers (2.0)
32. Steelers (1.9)
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If the Giants have the worst OL in football, and if DJ is being so hampered by their poor play, shouldn't the Giants be the worst in the league in at least one of these categories?
The numbers say that they're middle of the pack across the board when it comes to pass protection.
all stats drawn from pro-football-reference.
Link - (
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Yesterday alone, Barkley is hit behind the LOS on almost every run. Teams for weeks have been able to rush 3 and pressure the QB
This OL can’t run block and can’t pass block
Did anyone say it wasn’t a problem?
i'd honestly like to see jones and barkley replaced with glennon and booker. i don't think you'd see any drop-off in offensive production and would likely see an uptick.
There’s a lot of hyperbole that the Giants have the worst pass blocking and the worst run blocking.
I think the Giants have a bad line, but not the worst. They aren’t in the area of the Bears or Seahawks. Those are teams who basically cannot run their offense because of the constant pressure on the QB.
What the Giants do suffer from, and what really is noticeable, is the number of individual breakdowns that lead to big losses.
Next?
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not sure how any Giants fan who actually watches these games cannot come away saying the OL is a problem.
Did anyone say it wasn’t a problem?
Ummmmm
i'd honestly like to see jones and barkley replaced with glennon and booker. i don't think you'd see any drop-off in offensive production and would likely see an uptick.
I do not think that sentiment is even close to held by "most of you" Sometimes I wonder how many people come n this site that do not really watch the games.
Problem? Absolutely.
Historically bad OL as some fans have described it? We don't even have the worst OL in the NFL this season when it comes to pass pro.
The OL isn't doing DJ any favors, but other QBs are doing more with less when it comes to their OLs.
Garrett cut the balls off the offense
so imo the NYG line play even this year is closer to league average than most fans realize.
but league average is bad. below average is unplayable. and a handful of teams at the top have a huge advantage over everyone else.
not signing Callahan when he was available was the organizations biggest mistake this half decade and possibly full decade.
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In comment 15472079 Eric from BBI said:
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not sure how any Giants fan who actually watches these games cannot come away saying the OL is a problem.
Did anyone say it wasn’t a problem?
Ummmmm
Gatorade Dunk didn’t say it wasn’t a problem. He said that it’s not as bad as it’s being made out to be by the Jones excuse makers
Along with an O-line problem.
Anecdotally I watched the Dallas v Raiders game and the Raiders OL looked every bit as bad as ours, but Carr really moves around well and found receivers open deep. The one difference is they could run the ball... maybe it was the OL or maybe it was their RB vs Barkely, idk... maybe a bit of both?
I would say our OL play is an issue, it's no myth.
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not sure how any Giants fan who actually watches these games cannot come away saying the OL is a problem.
Problem? Absolutely.
Historically bad OL as some fans have described it? We don't even have the worst OL in the NFL this season when it comes to pass pro.
The OL isn't doing DJ any favors, but other QBs are doing more with less when it comes to their OLs.
OK who? It's not Wilson, Fields or Dalton.
This skews all these stats and helps to band aid the reality which is our offensive line has routinely played horrible all season.
Along with an O-line problem.
because two things cannot be true at the same time...per the BBI rulebook.
The offensive line can't run block. Full stop. And you can't divorce the pass game from the run game. They are synergistic and integrally woven into one another.
How miserable is the Giants offensive line?
26th in rushing yards per game (90.8)
27th in rushing yards per attempt (3.9)
28th in rushing TDs (7)
28th in time of possession (28:54)
29th in rushing first downs (54)
If this hot mess of a unit isn't re-built from the ground up, neither the QB, RB or WR positions will ever come close to reaching their full potential.
And neither will our defense.
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In comment 15472079 Eric from BBI said:
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not sure how any Giants fan who actually watches these games cannot come away saying the OL is a problem.
Did anyone say it wasn’t a problem?
Ummmmm
Eric, I think you're interpreting my post as saying that the OL is just fine and dandy, no problems, nothing to see here.
That's not my point at all, and I apologize for not being clearer about that.
I do think the OL is bad. It's a problem. It's just not even the worst in football this year (and it's not even close to the worst, honestly) let alone historically bad. Said another way, if other QBs are producing behind OLs that are worse than ours, it ceases to be an excuse for a QB who will average less than one passing TD per game over a full two season stretch.
I do think those statistics show how overly conservative they have been in protecting the OL and Jones though. Instead of challenging their young players they seem content to avoid big mistakes at all costs and hope the defense can keep it competitive in the 4th quarter.
More to this point, as I said in another thread, these stats have to be looked in with the context. The Giants obviously gameplan around this. They make Jones get rid of the ball almost immediately. There are few, if any, five-seven step drops. Very little stepping up in the pocket and no run game to keep the defense honest.
But nobody who has even a rudimentary understanding of football can watch the Giants and think that blocking (at any level, inside, outside, second level) is something that is middle of the pack in this league. It is just not.
I don't know how the Giants aren't at that point with Daniel Jones.
Players just don't come back from where he is now in the same organization.
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In comment 15472087 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 15472079 Eric from BBI said:
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not sure how any Giants fan who actually watches these games cannot come away saying the OL is a problem.
Did anyone say it wasn’t a problem?
Ummmmm
Eric, I think you're interpreting my post as saying that the OL is just fine and dandy, no problems, nothing to see here.
That's not my point at all, and I apologize for not being clearer about that.
I do think the OL is bad. It's a problem. It's just not even the worst in football this year (and it's not even close to the worst, honestly) let alone historically bad. Said another way, if other QBs are producing behind OLs that are worse than ours, it ceases to be an excuse for a QB who will average less than one passing TD per game over a full two season stretch.
I understand, but are you also factoring in running game productivity by those teams as well as the number of games missed by those teams' primary pass receivers?
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can watch the Giants play and think the Giants don't have a QB problem....
Along with an O-line problem.
because two things cannot be true at the same time...per the BBI rulebook.
My bad - I forgot.
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not sure how any Giants fan who actually watches these games cannot come away saying the OL is a problem.
More to this point, as I said in another thread, these stats have to be looked in with the context. The Giants obviously gameplan around this. They make Jones get rid of the ball almost immediately. There are few, if any, five-seven step drops. Very little stepping up in the pocket and no run game to keep the defense honest.
But nobody who has even a rudimentary understanding of football can watch the Giants and think that blocking (at any level, inside, outside, second level) is something that is middle of the pack in this league. It is just not.
And you think other teams with bad O-lines don't try to scheme around that?
O line play around the leauge isn't great in the modern game so the bar is low, the Giants can't reach that bar yet
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not sure how any Giants fan who actually watches these games cannot come away saying the OL is a problem.
Did anyone say it wasn’t a problem?
Gatorade Dunk believes it's only "middling."
The offensive line can't run block. Full stop. And you can't divorce the pass game from the run game. They are synergistic and integrally woven into one another.
How miserable is the Giants offensive line?
26th in rushing yards per game (90.8)
27th in rushing yards per attempt (3.9)
28th in rushing TDs (7)
28th in time of possession (28:54)
29th in rushing first downs (54)
If this hot mess of a unit isn't re-built from the ground up, neither the QB, RB or WR positions will ever come close to reaching their full potential.
And neither will our defense.
Sadly - there's three problems going on at the same time...
B/c Saquon is not going to get a gold jacket. Not after he blew out his knee anyway.
Seattle is a great example. They were rolling out some of the worst OLs I have ever seen the last five years. Yet, Wilson still was able lead the team to winning records, playoff spots, and pro bowl production.
Unfortunately, are problems are compounded by an average-below average OL and a QB who is limited in his ability to lift the team up and help offset these OL issues.
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In comment 15472079 Eric from BBI said:
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not sure how any Giants fan who actually watches these games cannot come away saying the OL is a problem.
More to this point, as I said in another thread, these stats have to be looked in with the context. The Giants obviously gameplan around this. They make Jones get rid of the ball almost immediately. There are few, if any, five-seven step drops. Very little stepping up in the pocket and no run game to keep the defense honest.
But nobody who has even a rudimentary understanding of football can watch the Giants and think that blocking (at any level, inside, outside, second level) is something that is middle of the pack in this league. It is just not.
And you think other teams with bad O-lines don't try to scheme around that?
Yes, they do, but a team like the Steelers with an awful offensive line, still takes plenty of shots down the field (with horrifying results lol), but they try.
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In comment 15472079 Eric from BBI said:
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not sure how any Giants fan who actually watches these games cannot come away saying the OL is a problem.
Problem? Absolutely.
Historically bad OL as some fans have described it? We don't even have the worst OL in the NFL this season when it comes to pass pro.
The OL isn't doing DJ any favors, but other QBs are doing more with less when it comes to their OLs.
OK who? It's not Wilson, Fields or Dalton.
Wilson has 10 TDs in 7 games. That's better per game than Jones.
The Bears are a tire fire on the OL, and are doing it in a QB transition year - that's almost not worth considering, but even so, yes they're worse. Is that what DJ should be in his 3rd year with a better OL and better weapons? An amalgamation of a rookie and a journeyman?
Kirk Cousins is playing behind one of the lines that shows up a few times below the Giants (Cousins gets sacked way less but pressured, hurried, and hit way more), how's he doing? Apparently you can have a mediocre OL and still have 23 TDs and 3 INTs at this point in the season.
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In comment 15472096 Eric from BBI said:
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In comment 15472087 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 15472079 Eric from BBI said:
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not sure how any Giants fan who actually watches these games cannot come away saying the OL is a problem.
Did anyone say it wasn’t a problem?
Ummmmm
Eric, I think you're interpreting my post as saying that the OL is just fine and dandy, no problems, nothing to see here.
That's not my point at all, and I apologize for not being clearer about that.
I do think the OL is bad. It's a problem. It's just not even the worst in football this year (and it's not even close to the worst, honestly) let alone historically bad. Said another way, if other QBs are producing behind OLs that are worse than ours, it ceases to be an excuse for a QB who will average less than one passing TD per game over a full two season stretch.
I understand, but are you also factoring in running game productivity by those teams as well as the number of games missed by those teams' primary pass receivers?
Now we're reintroducing other excuses. The premise of this post was that if the last remaining excuse for DJ is the OL, should it be a worthy excuse?
Seattle is a great example. They were rolling out some of the worst OLs I have ever seen the last five years. Yet, Wilson still was able lead the team to winning records, playoff spots, and pro bowl production.
Unfortunately, are problems are compounded by an average-below average OL and a QB who is limited in his ability to lift the team up and help offset these OL issues.
And how does Seattle gameplan around it? Their QB runs fifty yards backwards. Each time handles poor OL play differently, we just have not done it well (whether it be front office in getting us better talent, coaches in coaching the team, and players like Jones in executing).
That was the main problem last year w/ being able to evaluate QB play...I think...
The right thing to assume is that all three are.
Eric, there are posters on this forum who have admitted they don't really watch the games. Its bizarre.
Anecdotally I watched the Dallas v Raiders game and the Raiders OL looked every bit as bad as ours, but Carr really moves around well and found receivers open deep. The one difference is they could run the ball... maybe it was the OL or maybe it was their RB vs Barkely, idk... maybe a bit of both?
I would say our OL play is an issue, it's no myth.
If it were purely about scheming to get the ball out quickly (as the Steelers do with Ben), it would show up in the pocket time metric.
All of these stats are intended to allow any escape hatch from the other stats to be revealed. The Giants start most plays from something that approximates league median when it comes to OL play on pass protection.
No, it doesn't tell the whole story. It's almost impossible to do that in football, because of how the pieces fit together. But that goes for excuses as well as rebuttals. If you think that I can't simply prove that the OL is not at fault, then by definition you can't simply prove that DJ isn't at fault either.
QED
i'd honestly like to see jones and barkley replaced with glennon and booker. i don't think you'd see any drop-off in offensive production and would likely see an uptick.
Stay off the drugs kids
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not sure how any Giants fan who actually watches these games cannot come away saying the OL is a problem.
Eric, there are posters on this forum who have admitted they don't really watch the games. Its bizarre.
Or you could just, you know, read the arguments and see that nobody is saying the O-line isn't a problem
Garrett cut the balls off the offense
This.
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by the fact that Garrett never threw downfield (where pass pro has to stand up more). Every passing play was 3-5 yds.
Garrett cut the balls off the offense
This.
Then the pocket time would be lower.
Is BBI really this innumerate?
i'd honestly like to see jones and barkley replaced with glennon and booker. i don't think you'd see any drop-off in offensive production and would likely see an uptick.
Wow.
I disagree with your point of view.
And there’s also the possibility that DJ’s play has masked worse shit from happening.
There’s near universal consensus that Solder is done, Hernandez is playing poorly and Price is a stop gap ... yet the sum of these parts is supposed to be ok. Seriously, get real.
Some fans are delusional if they feel this line is less than putrid and not eh worst in the NFL. Thomas has been the only quality starter. The Line was decimated in the first 2 games.. we had our back ups retire. and our future starter on RT injured and missing key rep time. The OL is the number 1 problem for this team since 2011 -its now 2021