I put this together for a reply in the Terps callout thread, but realize that many people may be avoiding what they assume is just a callout thread.
In any case, as we've gone through the litany of explanations for DJ's inconsistent and/or middling performances, it seems that the only one that really remains active is that DJ is hampered by what many fans want to describe as the worst OL in football.
There are a number of metrics that can be used to track OL play, particularly as it relates to the passing game. Here are a few that I'm looking at:
1) Sacks per game (since we're still in the middle of bye weeks, not every team has played the same amount of games, so per game average is more fair)
2) Sack percentage (this does not need to be altered since it is already adjusted for pass attempts)
3) Pressures per game
4) Pressure percentage
5) Hurries per game
6) Hits per game
7) Average pocket time
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SACKS PER GAME
1. Vikings (1.36)
2. Buccaneers (1.36)
3. Rams (1.55)
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16. Giants (2.09)
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30. Ravens (3.27)
31. Seahawks (3.30)
32. Bears (3.36)
SACK PERCENTAGE
1. Buccaneers (3.1%)
2. Vikings (3.5%)
3. Bills (3.9%)
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14. Giants (5.6%)
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30. Browns (8.6%)
31. Seahawks (10.3%)
32. Bears (10.7%)
PRESSURES PER GAME
1. Rams (4.8)
2. Buccaneers (5.1)
3. Patriots (6.3)
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19. Giants (8.8)
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30. Vikings (10.3)
31. Jets (10.4)
32. Broncos (10.5)
PRESSURE PERCENTAGE
1. Buccaneers (11.5%)
2. Rams (12.3%)
3. Steelers (16.4%)
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16. Giants (22.1%)
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30. Panthers (26.2%)
31. Seahawks (27.2%)
32. Broncos (28.4%)
HURRIES PER GAME
1. Patriots (1.25)
2. Rams (1.27)
3. Titans (1.33)
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16. Giants (3.45)
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30. Broncos (4.54)
31. Bills (4.73)
32. Vikings (4.91)
HITS PER GAME
1. Browns (1.42)
2. Cardinals (1.45)
3. Buccaneers (1.73)
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21. Giants (3.27)
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30. Vikings (4.00)
31. Colts (4.58)
32. Falcons (5.09)
AVERAGE POCKET TIME (in seconds)
1. Washington (2.5)
2. Eagles (2.4)
3. Seahawks (2.4)
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13. Giants (2.2)
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30. Texans (2.0)
31. Packers (2.0)
32. Steelers (1.9)
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If the Giants have the worst OL in football, and if DJ is being so hampered by their poor play, shouldn't the Giants be the worst in the league in at least one of these categories?
The numbers say that they're middle of the pack across the board when it comes to pass protection.
all stats drawn from pro-football-reference.
Link - (
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It’s the QB, and his inability to handle pressure, which bottles up the entire offense
But the so-called "playmakers" on this team aren't doing their part even in a conservative offense. There are many other teams with porous OLs too that are able to function better because of higher quality QB/RB/TE/WR play...
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In comment 15472100 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15472079 Eric from BBI said:
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not sure how any Giants fan who actually watches these games cannot come away saying the OL is a problem.
Problem? Absolutely.
Historically bad OL as some fans have described it? We don't even have the worst OL in the NFL this season when it comes to pass pro.
The OL isn't doing DJ any favors, but other QBs are doing more with less when it comes to their OLs.
OK who? It's not Wilson, Fields or Dalton.
Wilson has 10 TDs in 7 games. That's better per game than Jones.
The Bears are a tire fire on the OL, and are doing it in a QB transition year - that's almost not worth considering, but even so, yes they're worse. Is that what DJ should be in his 3rd year with a better OL and better weapons? An amalgamation of a rookie and a journeyman?
Kirk Cousins is playing behind one of the lines that shows up a few times below the Giants (Cousins gets sacked way less but pressured, hurried, and hit way more), how's he doing? Apparently you can have a mediocre OL and still have 23 TDs and 3 INTs at this point in the season.
The Giants line isn't mediocre and the Bears and the Seahawks have records that are the same or worse than the Giants. When you just look at random stats(especially when you are searching to prove a point) you forget that winning and losing is important. I forgot that you were one of those guys that will do anything to shit on Jones so I'm done here, but really watching the games and winning and losing are important things.
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not sure how any Giants fan who actually watches these games cannot come away saying the OL is a problem.
Some fans are delusional if they feel this line is less than putrid and not eh worst in the NFL. Thomas has been the only quality starter. The Line was decimated in the first 2 games.. we had our back ups retire. and our future starter on RT injured and missing key rep time. The OL is the number 1 problem for this team since 2011 -its now 2021
If the Giants' OL is the worst in the NFL, how are other lines giving up more sacks, more hurries, more pressure, more hits, less pocket time, etc.?
Wouldn't it be easier to just admit that you don't watch any other games besides the Giants?
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In comment 15472102 PEEJ said:
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by the fact that Garrett never threw downfield (where pass pro has to stand up more). Every passing play was 3-5 yds.
Garrett cut the balls off the offense
This.
Then the pocket time would be lower.
Is BBI really this innumerate?
Does this take into account pocket time that DJ buys and sometimes tucks it and runs?
Add on that our run game stinks and our play calling has been vanilla, and there you have it.
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In comment 15472102 PEEJ said:
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by the fact that Garrett never threw downfield (where pass pro has to stand up more). Every passing play was 3-5 yds.
Garrett cut the balls off the offense
This.
Then the pocket time would be lower.
Is BBI really this innumerate?
Gatorade Dunk -- if the Giants passing game was turned into dink and donk by Garrett, then that would make just about all of your stats give an inflated view of our O-line's pass blocking skills. That includes:
Sacks per game
Sack percentage
Pressures per game
Pressure percentage
Hurries per game
Hits per game
How can a team look bad on the above stats when they are getting rid of the ball on short to intermediate passes?
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are bigger problems than the OL, or at least the OL is no bigger a problem than those two are.
i'd honestly like to see jones and barkley replaced with glennon and booker. i don't think you'd see any drop-off in offensive production and would likely see an uptick.
Wow.
I disagree with your point of view.
disagree all you want.
we have already seen booker be more productive than barkley behind this same OL.
we have seen toney have 189 yards receiving in one half of one game with glennon throwing him the ball behind this same OL.
there is just no evidence this season that jones and barkely are difference makers at their positions, and there is plenty of evidence to suggest they exacerbate the teams OL problems.
While it's a problem DJ is better throwing out of the pocket, throwing on the run would be easier if our WRs got open
Yesterday alone, Barkley is hit behind the LOS on almost every run. Teams for weeks have been able to rush 3 and pressure the QB
This OL can’t run block and can’t pass block
When all you are throwing are the shortest passes possible, those numbers won't tell the tale. Look at what happens when the Giants HAVE to throw he ball. The more telling stat is yards per carry. The Giants are averaging 3.8 yards a carry, tied for fifth worst in the league, and 90.8 yards a game, tied for seventh worst. Take out Jones' 298 yards and it's 3.5 yards a carry and 63 yards a game.
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In comment 15472090 japanhead said:
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are bigger problems than the OL, or at least the OL is no bigger a problem than those two are.
i'd honestly like to see jones and barkley replaced with glennon and booker. i don't think you'd see any drop-off in offensive production and would likely see an uptick.
Wow.
I disagree with your point of view.
disagree all you want.
we have already seen booker be more productive than barkley behind this same OL.
we have seen toney have 189 yards receiving in one half of one game with glennon throwing him the ball behind this same OL.
there is just no evidence this season that jones and barkely are difference makers at their positions, and there is plenty of evidence to suggest they exacerbate the teams OL problems.
You left out the part where Glennon threw 2 INTs....one for a defensive Touchdown
But this stuff is all interrelated.
Unless you really believe Eli Manning went from arguably league MVP at the age of 30 to bum for the entire second half of his career, then you need know other evidence that the team's OL has been horrific for a decade.
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In comment 15472109 Walker Gillette said:
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In comment 15472100 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15472079 Eric from BBI said:
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not sure how any Giants fan who actually watches these games cannot come away saying the OL is a problem.
Problem? Absolutely.
Historically bad OL as some fans have described it? We don't even have the worst OL in the NFL this season when it comes to pass pro.
The OL isn't doing DJ any favors, but other QBs are doing more with less when it comes to their OLs.
OK who? It's not Wilson, Fields or Dalton.
Wilson has 10 TDs in 7 games. That's better per game than Jones.
The Bears are a tire fire on the OL, and are doing it in a QB transition year - that's almost not worth considering, but even so, yes they're worse. Is that what DJ should be in his 3rd year with a better OL and better weapons? An amalgamation of a rookie and a journeyman?
Kirk Cousins is playing behind one of the lines that shows up a few times below the Giants (Cousins gets sacked way less but pressured, hurried, and hit way more), how's he doing? Apparently you can have a mediocre OL and still have 23 TDs and 3 INTs at this point in the season.
The Giants line isn't mediocre and the Bears and the Seahawks have records that are the same or worse than the Giants. When you just look at random stats(especially when you are searching to prove a point) you forget that winning and losing is important. I forgot that you were one of those guys that will do anything to shit on Jones so I'm done here, but really watching the games and winning and losing are important things.
These aren't random stats. They're literally every stat that reflects pass protection rates. If you can find even a single OL pass pro stat that I omitted, I'll gladly accept that this was somehow cherry picked. But I don't think you can.
And they're intentionally assembled. If a team is scheming around a poor OL they may be artificially inflated on sacks/hurries/pressures/hits, but that will show up in pocket time. And if they are doing poorly in sacks/hurries/pressures/hits, that should show up in pocket time (as a function of a poor internal clock from the QB) or not (in which case the OL is just so bad that it's a jailbreak every time).
That's not what shows up the Giants' OL metrics. They're not good. I'm not trying to make that case. But they're basically toward the low end of the middle-third, which is to say that OL play around the league is not especially good, but more than a handful of teams have it worse than the Giants. Meanwhile, QB play around the league isn't necessarily suffering.
This isn't entirely to excuse the OL. I would love to have the Suburbanites up front right now. But I think our OL is bearing more than their fair share of blame at the moment for those fans who really, really want DJ to not be a weakness on this roster.
Smoke and mirrors are deployed on first and second downs and on standard possessions, however this OL cannot consistently protect when it matters most. This OL cannot force defenses to have to rely on sending pressure. It’s the opposite. This OL consistently allows defenses to win by only rushing 4 or even 3 and maximize coverage on the back end.
Improvement is needed across the board. Coaching, blocking, running, receiving, and throwing.
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In comment 15472090 japanhead said:
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are bigger problems than the OL, or at least the OL is no bigger a problem than those two are.
i'd honestly like to see jones and barkley replaced with glennon and booker. i don't think you'd see any drop-off in offensive production and would likely see an uptick.
Wow.
I disagree with your point of view.
disagree all you want.
we have already seen booker be more productive than barkley behind this same OL.
we have seen toney have 189 yards receiving in one half of one game with glennon throwing him the ball behind this same OL.
there is just no evidence this season that jones and barkely are difference makers at their positions, and there is plenty of evidence to suggest they exacerbate the teams OL problems.
Do you really want to stand on the conviction that QBs and RBs enhance the play of the offensive line MORE THAN the reverse?
it's a combination of poor OL play, the play calling not really matching the OL capabilities or strengths, QB issues, skill position issues, etc.
I think the Giants have the longest streak in the NFL for not scoring 30 points in a game (on offense) or one of the longest. December 22, 2019 vs Washington. and OL play has a big part in that ineptitude.
But this stuff is all interrelated.
Unless you really believe Eli Manning went from arguably league MVP at the age of 30 to bum for the entire second half of his career, then you need know other evidence that the team's OL has been horrific for a decade.
I get that and I agree with it. The OL was worse in some of those years than it is now. Not exactly a high bar to beat, but still. And I think Eli had some PTSD in the final few years because of the bad OL play in front of him.
The point isn't whether DJ has a good OL in front of him; it's really how good of an OL will he need before he's not a liability. Because right now (and this is a reflection of the NFL at large), our OL is closer to league average than it is to the bottom.
Please name the good/great/elite NFL QBs who play behind shitty lines?!
Mayfield, Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, Brady, ARod, Mahomes, Stafford, Dak, Herbert, etc?!
You guys think good line play is a coincidence to good QB play?! We can't run the ball effectively behind this line so play action is almost non-existent and plays cant consistently develop down the field, and our WRs are dropping like flies.
These aren't random stats. They're literally every stat that reflects pass protection rates. If you can find even a single OL pass pro stat that I omitted, I'll gladly accept that this was somehow cherry picked. But I don't think you can.
And they're intentionally assembled. If a team is scheming around a poor OL they may be artificially inflated on sacks/hurries/pressures/hits, but that will show up in pocket time. And if they are doing poorly in sacks/hurries/pressures/hits, that should show up in pocket time (as a function of a poor internal clock from the QB) or not (in which case the OL is just so bad that it's a jailbreak every time).
That's not what shows up the Giants' OL metrics. They're not good. I'm not trying to make that case. But they're basically toward the low end of the middle-third, which is to say that OL play around the league is not especially good, but more than a handful of teams have it worse than the Giants. Meanwhile, QB play around the league isn't necessarily suffering.
This isn't entirely to excuse the OL. I would love to have the Suburbanites up front right now. But I think our OL is bearing more than their fair share of blame at the moment for those fans who really, really want DJ to not be a weakness on this roster.
Thanks for doing this GD, but no stats you can post will convince the Jones dead-enders that anything is his fault. Since you've posted about every relevant stat to show that Giants' pass pro is middle of the pack, not historically bad, they'll pivot to the ESPN pass block win rate, which is about as subjective a stat as you can get.
Look, the Giant OL isn't good, and every spot to the right of Andrew Thomas needs to be upgraded, but they aren't the reason for Jones's inconsistent play.
You left out the part where Glennon threw 2 INTs....one for a defensive Touchdown
and jones threw 2 ints and for 167 total passing yards just 13 days ago v tampa bay.
i'm not saying glennon is the answer at QB going forward, just that he wouldn't be significantly worse than jones, who has been one of the worst starting QBs in football.
ditto booker for barkley. but at least barkley has the excuse that inuries derailed his potential. jones has no such excuse.
The Giants can't run the ball and all of the primary receiving targets (Golladay, Toney, Smith, Barkley, Engram, etc.) have all missed significant time.
Jones may suck, but he's also cursed.
Jones glaring weakness in my opinion is that he has a tendancy to have bad nationally televised games. He has lost them all even though he has played well in some.
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In comment 15472169 Ira said:
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In comment 15472102 PEEJ said:
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by the fact that Garrett never threw downfield (where pass pro has to stand up more). Every passing play was 3-5 yds.
Garrett cut the balls off the offense
This.
Then the pocket time would be lower.
Is BBI really this innumerate?
Gatorade Dunk -- if the Giants passing game was turned into dink and donk by Garrett, then that would make just about all of your stats give an inflated view of our O-line's pass blocking skills. That includes:
Sacks per game
Sack percentage
Pressures per game
Pressure percentage
Hurries per game
Hits per game
How can a team look bad on the above stats when they are getting rid of the ball on short to intermediate passes?
True. And that's why pocket time is included as the catch-all reverse metric.
If a team is purely dink-and-dunk to protect themselves from a poor OL, they'll see their pocket time average decline. But the Giants aren't at the bottom of the league there, either.
Their offensive scheme may suck, but it's not because they don't have enough time to execute something that at least resembles a 2021 NFL offense.
Now we're reintroducing other excuses. The premise of this post was that if the last remaining excuse for DJ is the OL, should it be a worthy excuse?
It is possible that DJ has a bit more time to throw than some because of this...it also means that there are more defenders in coverage.
Statistics are good for peer review but they are generally not something on which you might base a theory.
my $0.02
It is possible that DJ has a bit more time to throw than some because of this...it also means that there are more defenders in coverage.
Statistics are good for peer review but they are generally not something on which you might base a theory.
my $0.02
Jones is the 5th most blitzed QB in the NFL this year.
The Giants can't run the ball and all of the primary receiving targets (Golladay, Toney, Smith, Barkley, Engram, etc.) have all missed significant time.
Jones may suck, but he's also cursed.
I agree with you on that last point. He may suck, he may be cursed, it may be both.
But as we head toward an offseason where his 5y option is due to be decided upon, I don't think it would be wise to invest bigger dollars in him while he's still a question mark.
Maybe that's unfair to him (it probably is, on some level), and maybe that could be a mistake if all of the excuses are true. But I know that if we need to rebuild much of this roster yet again, it will be easier to do so in 2023 without a $21M QB on the books who can't seem to even average a single passing TD per game.
I just want the Giants to be consistently in the hunt again. I don't want our wins to feel like a surprise party anymore. I don't see how we get there without a lot of work on the roster, which has been built outside-in despite the very vocal plan of DG when he was hired. And it doesn't make any sense to carry DJ into a second contract for that rebuild unless it's crystal clear that he's a stud and the roster around him is the issue.
I just don't think anyone can claim that with a straight face or functioning brain.
I'm not seeing how that has a fucking thing to do with pass protection. But hey, I guess maybe we both suck at reading comprehension.
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Dunk, the Rushing issue is a big part of the protection issue. Because the team cannot run there is no reason to bring a S up into the box. Because the team cannot pass block, there is no reason to blitz.
It is possible that DJ has a bit more time to throw than some because of this...it also means that there are more defenders in coverage.
Statistics are good for peer review but they are generally not something on which you might base a theory.
my $0.02
Jones is the 5th most blitzed QB in the NFL this year.
I stand by my post. If your team is one dimensional and is poor at that thing, you're in trouble.
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In comment 15472257 Brown_Hornet said:
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Dunk, the Rushing issue is a big part of the protection issue. Because the team cannot run there is no reason to bring a S up into the box. Because the team cannot pass block, there is no reason to blitz.
It is possible that DJ has a bit more time to throw than some because of this...it also means that there are more defenders in coverage.
Statistics are good for peer review but they are generally not something on which you might base a theory.
my $0.02
Jones is the 5th most blitzed QB in the NFL this year.
If you say so.
I stand by my post. If your team is one dimensional and is poor at that thing, you're in trouble.
There's no "if you say so."
All of you have access to the same insight that anyone else does. You just choose to not actually observe it.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/advanced.htm
so there's that...
It wasn't snarky, it was honest. I believe him.
The OL stinks, it's not a myth.
How would these stats look if the Giants ran an average number of plays that required time for the WRs to get downfield?
That being said, while the offensive line is bad, I think we're seeing enough that Jones doesn't have it on the rare occasion he's given time (especially in the red zone)
Jones is the main problem here. Which is not to say the OL doesn't need to be improved, but the QB needs to help the OL gel. This guy can't do it.
The OL is pathetic. Maybe Thomas is a good player, but that's it.
I posted several times before the year started, and it’s even more true now. The development of the offense is all about odds.
I felt it was low odds Solder, Peart, Lemieux and Hernandez would all be better than their last year on the field. I felt it was low odds the Giants would repeat the health along the line they had in 2020.
So now keep in mind 4 of the 5 starters yesterday are not under contract next year, and Gates and Lemieux are coming off major injuries.
What are the odds the Giants upgrade 4 offensive line positions next year?
I think the better odds are with upgrading the QB talent.
The biggest issue is they don't get consistent rush yards on 1st down. Too many 2nd and 9's or worse. Hard to keep a defense of guard. What we do not know is what Jones role is in it. Eli who was exceptional at changing out of bad plays couldn't overcome the OL so I think it is probably still a OL issue.
Jones is the main problem here. Which is not to say the OL doesn't need to be improved, but the QB needs to help the OL gel. This guy can't do it.
I echoed the same thing above. But I'm not sure how to allocate the %s between OL and QB. My instinct is to say it mostly Jones. And that's driven by my theory that he isn't good at going to the LOS and getting us into a better play that would help the OL. I would love to know how many times he checks out of the called play. My guess is he runs that play well over 90% of the time...
Which brings into question Jones's football IQ. I just don't think it's that good for the position.
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the "opening running lanes per game" stat. That's the one we'd be at the league bottom on.
I'm not seeing how that has a fucking thing to do with pass protection. But hey, I guess maybe we both suck at reading comprehension.
Like many here I’m simply stating that they are related…
But this stuff is all interrelated.
Unless you really believe Eli Manning went from arguably league MVP at the age of 30 to bum for the entire second half of his career, then you need know other evidence that the team's OL has been horrific for a decade.
Eli had pretty good 2014/2015 seasons behind very poor OLs.