I put this together for a reply in the Terps callout thread, but realize that many people may be avoiding what they assume is just a callout thread.
In any case, as we've gone through the litany of explanations for DJ's inconsistent and/or middling performances, it seems that the only one that really remains active is that DJ is hampered by what many fans want to describe as the worst OL in football.
There are a number of metrics that can be used to track OL play, particularly as it relates to the passing game. Here are a few that I'm looking at:
1) Sacks per game (since we're still in the middle of bye weeks, not every team has played the same amount of games, so per game average is more fair)
2) Sack percentage (this does not need to be altered since it is already adjusted for pass attempts)
3) Pressures per game
4) Pressure percentage
5) Hurries per game
6) Hits per game
7) Average pocket time
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SACKS PER GAME
1. Vikings (1.36)
2. Buccaneers (1.36)
3. Rams (1.55)
.
.
.
16. Giants (2.09)
.
.
.
30. Ravens (3.27)
31. Seahawks (3.30)
32. Bears (3.36)
SACK PERCENTAGE
1. Buccaneers (3.1%)
2. Vikings (3.5%)
3. Bills (3.9%)
.
.
.
14. Giants (5.6%)
.
.
.
30. Browns (8.6%)
31. Seahawks (10.3%)
32. Bears (10.7%)
PRESSURES PER GAME
1. Rams (4.8)
2. Buccaneers (5.1)
3. Patriots (6.3)
.
.
.
19. Giants (8.8)
.
.
.
30. Vikings (10.3)
31. Jets (10.4)
32. Broncos (10.5)
PRESSURE PERCENTAGE
1. Buccaneers (11.5%)
2. Rams (12.3%)
3. Steelers (16.4%)
.
.
.
16. Giants (22.1%)
.
.
.
30. Panthers (26.2%)
31. Seahawks (27.2%)
32. Broncos (28.4%)
HURRIES PER GAME
1. Patriots (1.25)
2. Rams (1.27)
3. Titans (1.33)
.
.
.
16. Giants (3.45)
.
.
.
30. Broncos (4.54)
31. Bills (4.73)
32. Vikings (4.91)
HITS PER GAME
1. Browns (1.42)
2. Cardinals (1.45)
3. Buccaneers (1.73)
.
.
.
21. Giants (3.27)
.
.
.
30. Vikings (4.00)
31. Colts (4.58)
32. Falcons (5.09)
AVERAGE POCKET TIME (in seconds)
1. Washington (2.5)
2. Eagles (2.4)
3. Seahawks (2.4)
.
.
.
13. Giants (2.2)
.
.
.
30. Texans (2.0)
31. Packers (2.0)
32. Steelers (1.9)
--------------------
If the Giants have the worst OL in football, and if DJ is being so hampered by their poor play, shouldn't the Giants be the worst in the league in at least one of these categories?
The numbers say that they're middle of the pack across the board when it comes to pass protection.
all stats drawn from pro-football-reference.
Link - (
New Window )
I echoed the same thing above. But I'm not sure how to allocate the %s between OL and QB. My instinct is to say it mostly Jones. And that's driven by my theory that he isn't good at going to the LOS and getting us into a better play that would help the OL. I would love to know how many times he checks out of the called play. My guess is he runs that play well over 90% of the time...
Which brings into question Jones's football IQ. I just don't think it's that good for the position.
I tend to agree with this. The announcers mentioned yesterday that with Kitchens, Jones would be given more autonomy at the LOS. It appears that at the least, Garrett restricted his ability to make changes. He didn't do that with Romo or Dak, so maybe he was concerned about what Jones was seeing?
And it's not only playcalling. The QB is a check on the OC's line calls. He has to ID the Mike and try to determine where the pressure is going to come from. If Jones isn't doing that properly, he could be one of the reasons for the OL struggles.
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In comment 15472090 japanhead said:
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are bigger problems than the OL, or at least the OL is no bigger a problem than those two are.
i'd honestly like to see jones and barkley replaced with glennon and booker. i don't think you'd see any drop-off in offensive production and would likely see an uptick.
Wow.
I disagree with your point of view.
disagree all you want.
we have already seen booker be more productive than barkley behind this same OL.
we have seen toney have 189 yards receiving in one half of one game with glennon throwing him the ball behind this same OL.
there is just no evidence this season that jones and barkely are difference makers at their positions, and there is plenty of evidence to suggest they exacerbate the teams OL problems.
It wasn't snarky, it was honest. I believe him.
The OL stinks, it's not a myth.
right, the myth is the comment that Jones has more time to throw because he isn't being blitzed and that there are more guys in coverage...
Both groups are right. And wrong! And it's probably similar to the arguments happening within the Giants organization itself. I would say the "trust your eyes" folks have been winning those arguments for the last decade - to the detriment of the franchise - but that's just my opinion.
As for the data analysis, yeoman's work here by GD, but I think even he would admit that it's incomplete as there are other data points that are relevant, yet missing. WR separation is one that comes to mind for me - maybe Jones is getting the ball out quicker to avoid the rush, but not actually connecting often enough because the receivers aren't open. Passes defended would be another one. And both of those would be a symptom of lack of talent and/or poor play calling and coaching.
Daniel Jones is the biggest problem the Giants have, followed closely by the lack of a pass rush, followed closely by the Giants OGs and C.
We've heard Judge say Jones is his guy, Jones can be a very good NFL QB etc. But those are words. When it came time to win the game yesterday after Scott fumbled what did the Giants do? They ran 3 give up plays to try and get the Eagles to burn their TOs and punted without even making an attempt to get a first down and end the game with the ball. Some of that might be not trusting the horrible OL but it's a clear indication of what the coaching staff thinks of the QB. They don't trust hi to protect the ball and protect the lead.
As bad as the Eagles QB played yesterday they win the game if their receiver doesn't drop two very catchable balls at the end of the game.
I can't believe that Solder is still starting over Peart at RT so maybe Judge really thinks Jones is his QB and it wasn't a trust thing. Maybe that's just how Judge will evaluate and coach until he's fired. Which will be at the end of next year the latest IMO if he keeps playing players like Solder and playing not to lose.
You are right on there
Rodgers and Wilson are Masters of moving up in the pocket and throwing accurately on the run
Jones (much like Phil Simms) has not mastered this very important dynamic
Phil won a few games and a Trophy though
The OL does suck! But a dozen other OLs around the league also suck, some much worse! And some QBs who work behind those lesser OLs are still performing at a higher level than DJ.
This is not intended to absolve the OL of ANY blame here; after all, they were hand-chosen by the same dimwit who built the rest of the roster, but that it is possible to perform at least adequately behind a mediocre OL, because we're seeing it happen for other teams.
But OL play in general is in decline across the league, yet I think many Giants fans only watch our games and thus are comparing our OL to past years instead of what is actually happening in the NFL right now.
Our OL needs to be improved, drastically. But so does our QB.
I posted several times before the year started, and it’s even more true now. The development of the offense is all about odds.
I felt it was low odds Solder, Peart, Lemieux and Hernandez would all be better than their last year on the field. I felt it was low odds the Giants would repeat the health along the line they had in 2020.
So now keep in mind 4 of the 5 starters yesterday are not under contract next year, and Gates and Lemieux are coming off major injuries.
What are the odds the Giants upgrade 4 offensive line positions next year?
I think the better odds are with upgrading the QB talent.
We beat Seattle last year with McCoy and we won a game with Glennon this year. When Jones was hurt this year, it would have been nice to sit him for a few weeks to see what the offense would look like with different QB getting all the practice reps and a couple of weeks to get him used to the system.
It was an important piece of information we failed to acquire in the midst of another lost season.
However, you want stats so how about we simply google OL rankings for 2021?
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-week-10-offensive-line-rankings-2021
31st in the league according to PFF after week 10
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-line-units-entering-2021-season
PFF again before the season started, dead last.
https://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/analysis/2021-nfl-offensive-line-rankings-by-positional-unit/
Never heard of this site before but Giants rank 2nd to last again.
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/fantasy/news/2021-nfl-offensive-line-rankings-fantasy-football-sleepers-busts/1a383cwxkyin71wj5ggqcs1gdz
Sporting News
I could easily keep going but the point is that of the people that get paid to report on stuff like this, NOBODY has the Giants' OL as the "middle of the pack". NOBODY!
Why not put Brederson in at LG(since we burned a 4th round draft choice) move Skura to center and start Peart at RT. Can it be any worse???
Just a thought!!!
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period and full stop. We have OL guys who failed here and worked out on teams with so-called *better* OLs.
Jones is the main problem here. Which is not to say the OL doesn't need to be improved, but the QB needs to help the OL gel. This guy can't do it.
I echoed the same thing above. But I'm not sure how to allocate the %s between OL and QB. My instinct is to say it mostly Jones. And that's driven by my theory that he isn't good at going to the LOS and getting us into a better play that would help the OL. I would love to know how many times he checks out of the called play. My guess is he runs that play well over 90% of the time...
Which brings into question Jones's football IQ. I just don't think it's that good for the position.
yes. but it's not just checking to a different play. His post-snap movement helps with the protections. But yes he is bad at the LOS. He doesn't move protections. He doesn't do anything other than what is scripted.
Jones is a badly performing robot.
Why not put Brederson in at LG(since we burned a 4th round draft choice) move Skura to center and start Peart at RT. Can it be any worse???
Just a thought!!!
I'm not sure if this is unclear, but several posters seem to think that the OL is a viable excuse for DJ's mediocrity. And if that's the case, then the OL should be overwhelmingly bad, right? But if the OL is middle of the pack, and DJ is still mediocre, then maybe he's just mediocre.
I guess that that was not especially clear with the thread title or the OP?
However, you want stats so how about we simply google OL rankings for 2021?
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-week-10-offensive-line-rankings-2021
31st in the league according to PFF after week 10
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-line-units-entering-2021-season
PFF again before the season started, dead last.
https://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/analysis/2021-nfl-offensive-line-rankings-by-positional-unit/
Never heard of this site before but Giants rank 2nd to last again.
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/fantasy/news/2021-nfl-offensive-line-rankings-fantasy-football-sleepers-busts/1a383cwxkyin71wj5ggqcs1gdz
Sporting News
I could easily keep going but the point is that of the people that get paid to report on stuff like this, NOBODY has the Giants' OL as the "middle of the pack". NOBODY!
Ah, one of the days that BBI likes PFF.
Try running PFF metrics around these parts when they're not favorable, see how that goes.
Also, those are not isolated to pass pro.
Now I believe the giants need to move on at QB.
I don't believe that that excuses the OL and I don't believe that they are middle of the pack.
Clearly this team has a multitude of issues that need to be addressed in the draft. At this point with a little bit of knowledge I don't believe that any of the quarterbacks will be worthy of 1 of our 1st round selections based on the other talent that will be available... I guess I just don't like the idea of reaching for a quarterback.
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I agree DJ is not a franchise QB but like I said this OL sucks. Right now 4 of the 5 starters on our OL are backups on other teams(maybe?).
Why not put Brederson in at LG(since we burned a 4th round draft choice) move Skura to center and start Peart at RT. Can it be any worse???
Just a thought!!!
I'm not sure if this is unclear, but several posters seem to think that the OL is a viable excuse for DJ's mediocrity. And if that's the case, then the OL should be overwhelmingly bad, right? But if the OL is middle of the pack, and DJ is still mediocre, then maybe he's just mediocre.
I guess that that was not especially clear with the thread title or the OP?
Your stats don't prove mediocrity. If the Giants have purposefully shortened their passing game due to their scary pass blocking, then the stats you opened with are not relevant.
Rushing stats. ave. att/game 29 avypg. 138 ave/rush 4.7
I will stay just in division but take a look at the same stats for Dak and Wentz with their respective teams. They actual exceed the numbers above. Both were Pro Bowl in within the first two years.
Patriots with Mac Jones average 28 rushes 116 yards 4.1
2021 Giants 23 attempts per game. 90 yards per game. 3.8
I am pretty sure they will be moving on from Jones. I can't say how much of a impact Jones has on the stats above. What I will say until the Giants fix the ability to run it is highly likely the next QB is going to struggle as well. They do not run enough and the average is not consistent where they are winning down and distance. How much that is Jones, the OL or the skill players is the debate at hand imv. Don't forget a lot of the running yards come from a couple bigger gainers and a whole lot of nothing or negative plays.
Your subjective impressions of the Giants relative OL performance are worthless. OL play has deteriorated as defensive player athleticism has improved. The NFL can’t find enough quality o-lineman. So your frame of reference, based on amateur viewing of selected other teams from this season and past, are inadequate to the task of ranking the Giants OL. Just admit it.
But there are a ton of BBIers who focus in on those holes without ever asking: What do these players look like behind a decent offensive line.
Yesterday, Barkley was given one chance to get through the line untouched and he turned it into a 34-yard run.
Yesterday, I think Daniel Jones threw the ball way downfield ONCE even though there's a new O.C. And the reason why is obvious: he has no time in the pocket to allow deep routes to develop.
And last but not least, some BBIers seem to think that the QB and RB should make the o-line look at least as good as the O-line making the QB and RB look good.
That is ass backwards.
Please describe how "pocket time" is being defined? Is it how much time a QB has before someone hits him? Or is it the amount of time the QB takes before he throws the ball? Or, something else?
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as GD keeps pointing out, it's middle of the pack. it's not artificially inflated by roll outs. the Giants are not the only team in the NFL that tries to compensate for poor OL play by moving the QB. the fact that the OL is also bad at run blocking doesn't change the pocket time number. it's pretty simple - on an average pass play, DJ has about the league average amount of time to make a read and get rid of the ball. that doesn't mean the OL is good. but it does suggest as the OP has pointed out that they are not somehow the worst pass blocking OL in the league, let alone the worst OL the NFL has seen in a decade, as may on this board seem to suggest. now, you can fairly argue that Garrett's play designs were so bad at scheming guys open that there's no one for Jones to throw the ball too half the time. and the running game has been so bad that he's often in third and longs and so holds the ball longer to try to make a play (I'd bet there's a stat on this too) but the evidence is also that he's not a good processor - he misses reads and therefore doesn't make plays that are there to be made.
Please describe how "pocket time" is being defined? Is it how much time a QB has before someone hits him? Or is it the amount of time the QB takes before he throws the ball? Or, something else?
As defined by PFR, pocket time is the "average time the QB had in the pocket between the snap and throwing the ball or pressure collapses the pocket, in seconds."
So QBs who get rid of the ball quickly have a low pocket time metric, as do QBs who are pressured quickly (so if they're forced out of the pocket due to pressure, that also would knock down their pocket time metric). It's unclear how designed rollouts factor in here, but since most accept that DJ's mobility is a strength, I don't think designed rollouts should be viewed as discrediting the data, since intended rollouts should be considered a utilization of one of DJ's primary skills.
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In comment 15472495 Rick in Dallas said:
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I agree DJ is not a franchise QB but like I said this OL sucks. Right now 4 of the 5 starters on our OL are backups on other teams(maybe?).
Why not put Brederson in at LG(since we burned a 4th round draft choice) move Skura to center and start Peart at RT. Can it be any worse???
Just a thought!!!
I'm not sure if this is unclear, but several posters seem to think that the OL is a viable excuse for DJ's mediocrity. And if that's the case, then the OL should be overwhelmingly bad, right? But if the OL is middle of the pack, and DJ is still mediocre, then maybe he's just mediocre.
I guess that that was not especially clear with the thread title or the OP?
Your stats don't prove mediocrity. If the Giants have purposefully shortened their passing game due to their scary pass blocking, then the stats you opened with are not relevant.
Yes, they do. If the "scary pass blocking" was worse than the league, that would show up somewhere - pressures, hurries, hits, sacks... it doesn't appear in any of those metrics as being even near the bottom of the league. And so you shift to pocket time, but that's not really favorable to your argument either, so the question becomes about rollout passes. That's literally the only exception you're down to. I did my homework. You tell me how many designed rollouts the Giants ran yesterday. Tell me how many they've run this season.
It's not zero, obviously. It's part of the scheme and it does protect DJ from a troublesome OL. But other NFL teams have even worse lines. And many of them have QBs that somehow produce more points than DJ.
If the argument is about to shift back to the rest of the offense yet again, I have to repeat the question that no one ever seems to answer: if the entire offense is so bad, and they were all assembled by DG, why do you have faith that he got this one particular draft pick correct when there's no data to support it?
But there are a ton of BBIers who focus in on those holes without ever asking: What do these players look like behind a decent offensive line.
Yesterday, Barkley was given one chance to get through the line untouched and he turned it into a 34-yard run.
Yesterday, I think Daniel Jones threw the ball way downfield ONCE even though there's a new O.C. And the reason why is obvious: he has no time in the pocket to allow deep routes to develop.
And last but not least, some BBIers seem to think that the QB and RB should make the o-line look at least as good as the O-line making the QB and RB look good.
That is ass backwards.
No, I don't think anyone expects the QB and RB to make the OL look good. I think some fans understand that the QB and RB are making the OL look worse than they are.
But there are a ton of BBIers who focus in on those holes without ever asking: What do these players look like behind a decent offensive line.
Yesterday, Barkley was given one chance to get through the line untouched and he turned it into a 34-yard run.
Yesterday, I think Daniel Jones threw the ball way downfield ONCE even though there's a new O.C. And the reason why is obvious: he has no time in the pocket to allow deep routes to develop.
And last but not least, some BBIers seem to think that the QB and RB should make the o-line look at least as good as the O-line making the QB and RB look good.
That is ass backwards.
It’s not backwards, we see QBs and RBs rise above bad olines on a weekly basis. Nobody is asking for them to be Rodgers and Barry Sanders, but at least show something.
What has Jones shown on a consistent basis that leads you to believe a good oline will make him a franchise QB?
So Tom Brady commands his offense and hits his marks faster than the time it takes Daniel Jones to drop back, look confused, and feel pressure.
I think that is a plain indictment of Jones' play. And lets remember Tom Brady is 44 and Daniel Jones is supposed to be entering his prime.
The excuses are mind-numbing.
1. In practice, when Andrew Thomas is playing, the Giants' pass blocking is... passable. I don't think it's the worst in the league. When Thomas is out it's a train wreck.
2. They protect the line by keeping in extra guys, running fewer guys on routes, and running short passing plays. When was the last time they were able to go deep? Even Freddie Kitchens--who LOVES the deep ball--stayed pretty short with his passes yesterday.
3. PFF's grades are worthwhile here. I know, no one likes them and they're not gospel, whatever. They match the eye-test. The Giants have mediocre to below average blocking. No one is the worst in the league but a lot of them are on the cusp.
- Thomas ranks 28/81 among tackles.
- Solder ranks 68/81 among tackles.
- Skura ranks 64/81 among guards.
- Hernandez ranks 71/81 among guards.
- Price is 26/38 of centers.
So only one of five even in the "above average" tier, and four of five in the bottom quartile, or close. And that interior line is *very* weak. Which matches what we saw against Tampa, when the Giants had no answers for the interior pass rush. (In its defense, it has two backups and a third player who ought to be. But Lemieux wasn't good last year either.)
I also think that the line is particularly weak at run blocking. Just watch yesterday's game: the Eagles had holes ALL DAY, and Barkley gets hit behind the line almost every play.
Here's another way I've been looking at it. The Eagles were minus-4 in turnovers yesterday, and they were a dropped pass at the goal line from winning the game anyway. That's what good line play gives you.
With all of that said... I think Jones can be a successful QB if he had a line that was actually *good*, rather than barely mediocre. But a lot of quarterbacks could be successful with a good line, and Jones is about to get expensive.
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Now we're reintroducing other excuses. The premise of this post was that if the last remaining excuse for DJ is the OL, should it be a worthy excuse?
Dunk, the Rushing issue is a big part of the protection issue. Because the team cannot run there is no reason to bring a S up into the box. Because the team cannot pass block, there is no reason to blitz.
It is possible that DJ has a bit more time to throw than some because of this...it also means that there are more defenders in coverage.
Statistics are good for peer review but they are generally not something on which you might base a theory.
my $0.02
This is an interesting counter. But it's worth noting that one of DJ's purported strengths is his running ability. So if a team fails to respect that by dropping an extra man into coverage rather than keeping a spy or blitzer in on any given play, he should be able to make them pay with his legs, right? And if he's unable to because he's facing pressure, that should show up in any of these metrics, right?
You seem to want to force the Daniel Jones argument into a simple dichotomy: The BBIers who think he is fine vs the BBIers who think he needs to be discarded or is only a back-up talent at best.
You are obvious the latter, otherwise you would not have hauled out all these PFF stats.
But there’s a more nuanced view that goes like this:
The current O-line with one legit NFL starter doesn’t really allow us to plant our flag on either side of the Daniel Jones dichotomy.
The Athletic had an article last week ranking pass blocking and had the Giants as a middle of the pack (18th, I think). The problem was all of their best individual pass protectors were the three guys who’ve played the least… Lemieux, Gates, and Thomas.
There’s more than enough people on BBI who know no other words than Jones sucks. Nonsense like this is completely unnecessary.
You seem to want to force the Daniel Jones argument into a simple dichotomy: The BBIers who think he is fine vs the BBIers who think he needs to be discarded or is only a back-up talent at best.
You are obvious the latter, otherwise you would not have hauled out all these PFF stats.
But there’s a more nuanced view that goes like this:
The current O-line with one legit NFL starter doesn’t really allow us to plant our flag on either side of the Daniel Jones dichotomy.
A) NONE of these are PFF stats. Their data is subjective an relies upon their own contextualization of each play as they assume it was intended to occur; these are from PFR, which is more like a genuine database.
B) I don't necessarily think that DJ is only a backup or should be discarded, at least not purely on merit. But I do despise the DJ acolytes who want to extend his scholarship at a higher price, into yet another rebuild, simply because they haven't run out of excuses for him yet.
At a certain point - before his rookie contract expires, he either needs to be really good or be really gone. That's the only way to get this rebuild done.
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In comment 15472146 Gatorade Dunk said:
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Now we're reintroducing other excuses. The premise of this post was that if the last remaining excuse for DJ is the OL, should it be a worthy excuse?
Dunk, the Rushing issue is a big part of the protection issue. Because the team cannot run there is no reason to bring a S up into the box. Because the team cannot pass block, there is no reason to blitz.
It is possible that DJ has a bit more time to throw than some because of this...it also means that there are more defenders in coverage.
Statistics are good for peer review but they are generally not something on which you might base a theory.
my $0.02
This is an interesting counter. But it's worth noting that one of DJ's purported strengths is his running ability. So if a team fails to respect that by dropping an extra man into coverage rather than keeping a spy or blitzer in on any given play, he should be able to make them pay with his legs, right? And if he's unable to because he's facing pressure, that should show up in any of these metrics, right?
The simple answer is, no. Nothing is automatic.
The OP started a good conversation because it posed a question that was never going to have a simple answer, with the exception that the issues on the OL are a myth...clearly they are not.
IMO, DJ has been subpar, the OL has been far worse.
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You seem to want to force the Daniel Jones argument into a simple dichotomy: The BBIers who think he is fine vs the BBIers who think he needs to be discarded or is only a back-up talent at best.
You are obvious the latter, otherwise you would not have hauled out all these PFF stats.
But there’s a more nuanced view that goes like this:
The current O-line with one legit NFL starter doesn’t really allow us to plant our flag on either side of the Daniel Jones dichotomy.
A) NONE of these are PFF stats. Their data is subjective an relies upon their own contextualization of each play as they assume it was intended to occur; these are from PFR, which is more like a genuine database.
B) I don't necessarily think that DJ is only a backup or should be discarded, at least not purely on merit. But I do despise the DJ acolytes who want to extend his scholarship at a higher price, into yet another rebuild, simply because they haven't run out of excuses for him yet.
At a certain point - before his rookie contract expires, he either needs to be really good or be really gone. That's the only way to get this rebuild done.
All of the statistical information, used to form a nice neat answer, regardless of the sources, is subjective
If you're predisposed to believe what you want to believe, you're going to skew what you see, either intentionally or subconsciously.
Unconscious Bias is a thing.
If you're predisposed to believe what you want to believe, you're going to skew what you see, either intentionally or subconsciously.
Unconscious Bias is a thing.
truly.. OLs are in crisis around the league. Many here refuse to acknowledge this fact.
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People pigeon pick to make their point. Perhaps I am old school but I believe you still win in the trenches and it's very clear to those who watch the games and have watched for decades that the Giants OL is, and has been, absolute trash.
However, you want stats so how about we simply google OL rankings for 2021?
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-week-10-offensive-line-rankings-2021
31st in the league according to PFF after week 10
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-line-units-entering-2021-season
PFF again before the season started, dead last.
https://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/analysis/2021-nfl-offensive-line-rankings-by-positional-unit/
Never heard of this site before but Giants rank 2nd to last again.
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/fantasy/news/2021-nfl-offensive-line-rankings-fantasy-football-sleepers-busts/1a383cwxkyin71wj5ggqcs1gdz
Sporting News
I could easily keep going but the point is that of the people that get paid to report on stuff like this, NOBODY has the Giants' OL as the "middle of the pack". NOBODY!
Ah, one of the days that BBI likes PFF.
Try running PFF metrics around these parts when they're not favorable, see how that goes.
Also, those are not isolated to pass pro.
First, as I said in my post I simply googled OL rankings. Second, there are 5 links and only 2 of the 5 are from PFF. Third, feel free to find an 'expert' to say the OL is "middle of the pack". Lastly, I didn't pigeon pick stats to support my argument. I simply googled OL rankings.
But sure, you're right random guy pushing stats that support your argument. The people that get paid to report on this stuff (and I) are wrong.
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In comment 15472709 M.S. said:
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You seem to want to force the Daniel Jones argument into a simple dichotomy: The BBIers who think he is fine vs the BBIers who think he needs to be discarded or is only a back-up talent at best.
You are obvious the latter, otherwise you would not have hauled out all these PFF stats.
But there’s a more nuanced view that goes like this:
The current O-line with one legit NFL starter doesn’t really allow us to plant our flag on either side of the Daniel Jones dichotomy.
A) NONE of these are PFF stats. Their data is subjective an relies upon their own contextualization of each play as they assume it was intended to occur; these are from PFR, which is more like a genuine database.
B) I don't necessarily think that DJ is only a backup or should be discarded, at least not purely on merit. But I do despise the DJ acolytes who want to extend his scholarship at a higher price, into yet another rebuild, simply because they haven't run out of excuses for him yet.
At a certain point - before his rookie contract expires, he either needs to be really good or be really gone. That's the only way to get this rebuild done.
This is the defining post...again, IMO.
All of the statistical information, used to form a nice neat answer, regardless of the sources, is subjective
How is that subjective?
This is a salary cap league. DJ's price tag is going to increase dramatically with his option and then his next contract. If our knowledge of his likelihood to win hasn't also increased at the same rate - EVEN IF IT'S NOT HIS FAULT - then we're absorbing unnecessary risk. Essentially, we'd be extending the risk of a rookie QB but at a veteran QB price tag. How does that make any sense?
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In comment 15472476 USAF NYG Fan said:
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People pigeon pick to make their point. Perhaps I am old school but I believe you still win in the trenches and it's very clear to those who watch the games and have watched for decades that the Giants OL is, and has been, absolute trash.
However, you want stats so how about we simply google OL rankings for 2021?
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-week-10-offensive-line-rankings-2021
31st in the league according to PFF after week 10
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-line-units-entering-2021-season
PFF again before the season started, dead last.
https://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/analysis/2021-nfl-offensive-line-rankings-by-positional-unit/
Never heard of this site before but Giants rank 2nd to last again.
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/fantasy/news/2021-nfl-offensive-line-rankings-fantasy-football-sleepers-busts/1a383cwxkyin71wj5ggqcs1gdz
Sporting News
I could easily keep going but the point is that of the people that get paid to report on stuff like this, NOBODY has the Giants' OL as the "middle of the pack". NOBODY!
Ah, one of the days that BBI likes PFF.
Try running PFF metrics around these parts when they're not favorable, see how that goes.
Also, those are not isolated to pass pro.
First, as I said in my post I simply googled OL rankings. Second, there are 5 links and only 2 of the 5 are from PFF. Third, feel free to find an 'expert' to say the OL is "middle of the pack". Lastly, I didn't pigeon pick stats to support my argument. I simply googled OL rankings.
But sure, you're right random guy pushing stats that support your argument. The people that get paid to report on this stuff (and I) are wrong.
I mean, there's only four links in your post, but I guess that's close enough.
And we don't need an expert. That's the point of what I collected. If the Giants' OL is at the bottom of the league in pass protection, it would show up in literally ANY of the metrics I provided; it doesn't.
But since you can't even count to five, that might have flown above your head.
1) Has Jones improved his ability to sense the pass rush, use his feet to buy time, and make his own life easier?
2) Do the coaches trust him to change the plays at the line and use his brain to put his line in better matchups?
3) Does he use his eyes and arm to punish defenses when they over pursue
4) Does he take advantage of the times he does receive good protection at a high clip
If the answer isn’t yes to all the above, I’d upgrade QB.
How is that subjective?
The statistics used by everyone, when used as a group to determine "how good" the OL may be, is subjective.
I don't have a problem keeping DJ for yr 4, I can also get behind making a decision to move on.
When I watch the games, I generally focus on the OL/DL. This team is not middle of any pack...if the argument is that the entire bottom 50% of the pack is poor...ok?
That has no relevance to the notion that the OL needs to be greatly improved.
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In comment 15472543 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15472476 USAF NYG Fan said:
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People pigeon pick to make their point. Perhaps I am old school but I believe you still win in the trenches and it's very clear to those who watch the games and have watched for decades that the Giants OL is, and has been, absolute trash.
However, you want stats so how about we simply google OL rankings for 2021?
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-week-10-offensive-line-rankings-2021
31st in the league according to PFF after week 10
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-line-units-entering-2021-season
PFF again before the season started, dead last.
https://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/analysis/2021-nfl-offensive-line-rankings-by-positional-unit/
Never heard of this site before but Giants rank 2nd to last again.
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/fantasy/news/2021-nfl-offensive-line-rankings-fantasy-football-sleepers-busts/1a383cwxkyin71wj5ggqcs1gdz
Sporting News
I could easily keep going but the point is that of the people that get paid to report on stuff like this, NOBODY has the Giants' OL as the "middle of the pack". NOBODY!
Ah, one of the days that BBI likes PFF.
Try running PFF metrics around these parts when they're not favorable, see how that goes.
Also, those are not isolated to pass pro.
First, as I said in my post I simply googled OL rankings. Second, there are 5 links and only 2 of the 5 are from PFF. Third, feel free to find an 'expert' to say the OL is "middle of the pack". Lastly, I didn't pigeon pick stats to support my argument. I simply googled OL rankings.
But sure, you're right random guy pushing stats that support your argument. The people that get paid to report on this stuff (and I) are wrong.
I mean, there's only four links in your post, but I guess that's close enough.
And we don't need an expert. That's the point of what I collected. If the Giants' OL is at the bottom of the league in pass protection, it would show up in literally ANY of the metrics I provided; it doesn't.
But since you can't even count to five, that might have flown above your head.
My mistake, I thought I decided to only post the first 5 links that came up but I guess I forgot the 5th. I was reading through around the 8th link when I decided to only do 5. All saying the same thing by the way. Giants' OL is trash.
Again, feel free to find an "expert" that agrees with you. Perhaps a Mathematician would agree with you instead? I'll stick with people that actually know football.
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In comment 15472745 USAF NYG Fan said:
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In comment 15472543 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15472476 USAF NYG Fan said:
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People pigeon pick to make their point. Perhaps I am old school but I believe you still win in the trenches and it's very clear to those who watch the games and have watched for decades that the Giants OL is, and has been, absolute trash.
However, you want stats so how about we simply google OL rankings for 2021?
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-week-10-offensive-line-rankings-2021
31st in the league according to PFF after week 10
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-line-units-entering-2021-season
PFF again before the season started, dead last.
https://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/analysis/2021-nfl-offensive-line-rankings-by-positional-unit/
Never heard of this site before but Giants rank 2nd to last again.
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/fantasy/news/2021-nfl-offensive-line-rankings-fantasy-football-sleepers-busts/1a383cwxkyin71wj5ggqcs1gdz
Sporting News
I could easily keep going but the point is that of the people that get paid to report on stuff like this, NOBODY has the Giants' OL as the "middle of the pack". NOBODY!
Ah, one of the days that BBI likes PFF.
Try running PFF metrics around these parts when they're not favorable, see how that goes.
Also, those are not isolated to pass pro.
First, as I said in my post I simply googled OL rankings. Second, there are 5 links and only 2 of the 5 are from PFF. Third, feel free to find an 'expert' to say the OL is "middle of the pack". Lastly, I didn't pigeon pick stats to support my argument. I simply googled OL rankings.
But sure, you're right random guy pushing stats that support your argument. The people that get paid to report on this stuff (and I) are wrong.
I mean, there's only four links in your post, but I guess that's close enough.
And we don't need an expert. That's the point of what I collected. If the Giants' OL is at the bottom of the league in pass protection, it would show up in literally ANY of the metrics I provided; it doesn't.
But since you can't even count to five, that might have flown above your head.
My mistake, I thought I decided to only post the first 5 links that came up but I guess I forgot the 5th. I was reading through around the 8th link when I decided to only do 5. All saying the same thing by the way. Giants' OL is trash.
Again, feel free to find an "expert" that agrees with you. Perhaps a Mathematician would agree with you instead? I'll stick with people that actually know football.
The stats know football.
If DJ was behind the worst line in the NFL, he'd be sacked the most, or be hurried the most, or be pressured the most, or be hit the most, or have the least time to throw.
Literally none of those things are what is actually happening.
You don't need an expert to decipher that.
So Solder's poor play is his own, but DJ's poor play is a reflection of others' poor play?
This is a fun game.
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Love to see who's actually worse than Solder as a starting OT.
So Solder's poor play is his own, but DJ's poor play is a reflection of others' poor play?
This is a fun game.
Let's try to stop putting words in others mouth and use some facts first. Is Solder absolutely terrible? There's a drastic cause and effect in a lineman constantly getting disrupted on the snap or beaten by a bull rush. And this is via pass pro and run blocking. He's straight up the worst starter on the team by far. Shelton is really bad too, but he's at least part time.
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In comment 15472837 Toth029 said:
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Love to see who's actually worse than Solder as a starting OT.
So Solder's poor play is his own, but DJ's poor play is a reflection of others' poor play?
This is a fun game.
Let's try to stop putting words in others mouth and use some facts first. Is Solder absolutely terrible? There's a drastic cause and effect in a lineman constantly getting disrupted on the snap or beaten by a bull rush. And this is via pass pro and run blocking. He's straight up the worst starter on the team by far. Shelton is really bad too, but he's at least part time.
I agree that Solder is terrible. And I can freely acknowledge that, even if he has an awful guard next to him who probably makes him look even worse than he is. And no one tries to make excuses for him, he's universally accepted as a liability on this roster.
Meanwhile, DJ can also be shown to be a liability, but blind optimism creates this need to provide a laundry list of excuses for his mediocrity.
The stats that were posted reveal what I've always thought to be true - which is that the Giants do have a poor Oline, but other teams do as well and are still able to navigate their offense to some level of success.
The Giants have a bad OLine AND don't know how to, or aren't able to, compensate for it.
Lot of people have a hard time understanding this. Even our so called "QB experts" on BBI. Be in 2nd and 5/6 yards and like magic the pass blocking improves.