Is the OL excuse a myth?

But there are a lot of bad OLs in the NFL today. It's not so singularly awful to support the notion that Jones fans like to voice, that you can't expect any more from him because the blocking is so atrocious.

Is it possible that Jones even with a good OL wouldn't be a quarterback worth building around? Certainly. I would say it is looking more and more likely that he is not what the team is looking for even with the right pieces in place.

because of his atrocious O-Line, but in the past has gone on record saying that Dak Prescot has benefitted quite a lot from an excellent offensive line?

In comment 15472794 Brown_Hornet said:

Quote:

When I watch the games, I generally focus on the OL/DL. This team is not middle of any pack...if the argument is that the entire bottom 50% of the pack is poor...ok? That has no relevance to the notion that the OL needs to be greatly improved.

So you acknowledge that it could be as much as half the league has an OL that is as bad or worse than the Giants, but you aren’t at all curious as to why those teams are able to score more points than us?

In comment 15473024 M.S. said:

Quote:

because of his atrocious O-Line, but in the past has gone on record saying that Dak Prescot has benefitted quite a lot from an excellent offensive line?

This is a logical fallacy. You can do better.

Even with the poor situation Jones has been put in, I feel he would have shown more by now if he was a qb that significantly elevates those around him. I can't imagine the Giants are trying to hold out for the next Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes because they are extremely rare, so finding that quarterback who is good enough to invest in while not putting the team in a bind financially is likely the goal. The problem is when you insert a new quarterback into a poor situation it can slow down evaluation time in my view.

In comment 15473029 The Jake said:

Quote:

In comment 15472794 Brown_Hornet said: Quote: When I watch the games, I generally focus on the OL/DL. This team is not middle of any pack...if the argument is that the entire bottom 50% of the pack is poor...ok? That has no relevance to the notion that the OL needs to be greatly improved. So you acknowledge that it could be as much as half the league has an OL that is as bad or worse than the Giants, but you aren’t at all curious as to why those teams are able to score more points than us?

No, I didn't acknowledge that.
I said that if it were true, it doesn't change the fact that the Giants OL stinks.

In comment 15473050 crick n NC said:

Quote:

Even with the poor situation Jones has been put in, I feel he would have shown more by now if he was a qb that significantly elevates those around him. I can't imagine the Giants are trying to hold out for the next Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes because they are extremely rare, so finding that quarterback who is good enough to invest in while not putting the team in a bind financially is likely the goal. The problem is when you insert a new quarterback into a poor situation it can slow down evaluation time in my view.

+1

too many fans indulge Giants leadership and the propaganda campaigns of their excuse du jour.

We heard all offseason about how well the team of JJ and DG were doing and how we were on the upswing. Now it's just DG's fault? What about the "team" ?

You can pin the OL on DG but the Giants upper leadership will do everything possible to not have to acknowledge that they whiffed completely on a top 10 QB. For the worst reasons, seeing a guy that didn't have it between the ears to play the game and assuming they could fix that. The Giants are often guilty of both poor evaluation and overconfidence.

Which is what makes this dance where fans indulge the attempts to protect their egos so annoying.

I like to be optimistic, I don't like to be treated like I'm stupid.

Some of you want to keep getting yourself excited to eat 3 turd sandwiches for every 4 meals you sit down to (their approximate record in the DG era) as long as you and the Giants leadership that is better at selling you on their competence than their actual competence which you'd think would run out but sadly it hasn't.

I'm happy Dunk made this thread but something that gets lost in all this DG / DJ talk that shouldn't. If DJ is actually a good NFL QB and looks this bad, it's a massive failure top to bottom, coaching, personnel, culture. This to me just seems like another distraction from the real issue the Eagles played an absolute shit game and still almost beat us. Our franchise is a joke and has been a joke and it's almost as disheartening as the performance to see you all line up to make excuses for this team.

I can see it now, new GM comes in, still 50/50 it's Abrams. When we don't live up to expectations it will be WELL now we know JJ is bad. We need to give Abrams a chance to install HIS program! (or whoever else we bring in that went to BC and John Mara liked his handshake when he met him)

Enjoy the win, don't enjoy the win, I don't give a crap really. Just please stop deluding yourself that this team is going to be anything else than a bottom feeder until we see major changes.

This coming from someone who knew this whole thing was coming when DG was hired. If it helps you sleep at night knowing we have some outside shot to sneak into the playoffs great but know that any coverage you give the team selling these narratives to anyone else makes you part of the problem. We have an expensive roster, with little talent. A #2 and #6 pick that between their 7 seasons have shown themselves to be average players in 2. That's horrible.

You want to say we are doing something right if we get to the playoffs? Great. Enough of the excuse acrobatics, we as fans have to draw the line somewhere. Or your children are going to think the team that you grew up proud to be a fan of is a total joke

In comment 15473050 crick n NC said:

Quote:

Even with the poor situation Jones has been put in, I feel he would have shown more by now if he was a qb that significantly elevates those around him. I can't imagine the Giants are trying to hold out for the next Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes because they are extremely rare, so finding that quarterback who is good enough to invest in while not putting the team in a bind financially is likely the goal. The problem is when you insert a new quarterback into a poor situation it can slow down evaluation time in my view.

We had a chance to pick Herbert. He looks to be in that category. But we decided not to do that because we *didn't know what we had* in Jones. it is the worst example of mismanagement and we will be paying for that botch job for a generation.

In comment 15473075 NoGainDayne said:

Quote:

I can see it now, new GM comes in, still 50/50 it's Abrams. When we don't live up to expectations it will be WELL now we know JJ is bad. We need to give Abrams a chance to install HIS program! (or whoever else we bring in that went to BC and John Mara liked his handshake when he met him)

Good overall post, NGD, but I wanted to highlight this because it is a scenario that really concerns me.

In comment 15473082 Section331 said:

Quote:

In comment 15473075 NoGainDayne said: Quote: I can see it now, new GM comes in, still 50/50 it's Abrams. When we don't live up to expectations it will be WELL now we know JJ is bad. We need to give Abrams a chance to install HIS program! (or whoever else we bring in that went to BC and John Mara liked his handshake when he met him) Good overall post, NGD, but I wanted to highlight this because it is a scenario that really concerns me.

A new GM should be given time to execute upon his plan, but that should not prevent questionable moves to be questioned or if said moves look to be orchestrated in a fashion that points to no underlying plan either.

Presume the posters that defended Gettleman in this very fashion will be the first ones saying the new GM needs time as he had a big mess left to him by none other than DG himself...

which generally appear to put us only in the middle of the pack.
It’s that the vast majority of the time either someone blows their protection that forces a quick pass, or the receiver isn’t open when Jones needs the help, or both.
Watching other teams, generally the better teams , escape or roll out and find help from their ‘ hot ‘ read for > 7 yards, while we barely get more than 2-3, similar to the frustration of our receivers a yard short of a 1st down spot., is a scheme deficiency in addition to the breakdowns.

In comment 15473130 Joe Beckwith said:

Quote:

which generally appear to put us only in the middle of the pack. It’s that the vast majority of the time either someone blows their protection that forces a quick pass, or the receiver isn’t open when Jones needs the help, or both. Watching other teams, generally the better teams , escape or roll out and find help from their ‘ hot ‘ read for > 7 yards, while we barely get more than 2-3, similar to the frustration of our receivers a yard short of a 1st down spot., is a scheme deficiency in addition to the breakdowns.

Did it ever occur to you that DJ could also have hot reads that he doesn't find or hit?

in which no QB could succeed, ergo, he sucks. No running game, 2/3 top receivers out, multiple TEs injured, and o-line is awful. And he gets no credit for cutting down turnovers by a ton.

How do you think Tom Brady -- the purported GOAT -- would look in this offense? Would he magically elevate the play of his teammates and turn the offense around?

How about we fix the *&^%$#@! offensive line for '22 and maybe get us some healthy WRs, TEs, and RBs, then see if Jones is still underwhelming?

I'm not saying Jones is "the man", I'm saying that it's incredibly difficult to evaluate him in this crap situation. Talk about failing to put someone in a position to succeed...

I don’t think an anonymous amateur poster can call it a myth unless they highlight all the stats or site other sources. OFC he is not saying it is a myth - he is asking (I didn’t read much of the thread).

But I look at last year PFF had Giants ranked 31st

And this year week 10 of NFL season they had them 31st.

While PFFF or any stat can't be 100% believed to a degree I think they are using/have used more stats to develop their numbers than the OP is presenting here.

I think near the bottom is about right for this OL. And what PFF was showing kind of supports what I believe I see.

In comment 15473220 Don Draper said:

Quote:

in which no QB could succeed, ergo, he sucks. No running game, 2/3 top receivers out, multiple TEs injured, and o-line is awful. And he gets no credit for cutting down turnovers by a ton. How do you think Tom Brady -- the purported GOAT -- would look in this offense? Would he magically elevate the play of his teammates and turn the offense around? How about we fix the *&^%$#@! offensive line for '22 and maybe get us some healthy WRs, TEs, and RBs, then see if Jones is still underwhelming? I'm not saying Jones is "the man", I'm saying that it's incredibly difficult to evaluate him in this crap situation. Talk about failing to put someone in a position to succeed...

Cutting down turnovers by a ton?

No player in the NFL has more turnovers than DJ since he entered the league.

any of their games?

In comment 15473220 Don Draper said:

Quote:

in which no QB could succeed, ergo, he sucks. No running game, 2/3 top receivers out, multiple TEs injured, and o-line is awful. And he gets no credit for cutting down turnovers by a ton. How do you think Tom Brady -- the purported GOAT -- would look in this offense? Would he magically elevate the play of his teammates and turn the offense around? How about we fix the *&^%$#@! offensive line for '22 and maybe get us some healthy WRs, TEs, and RBs, then see if Jones is still underwhelming?

Tom Brady actually makes the case against Jones and QB's of middling skills. He's played in the league for 22 seasons, behind several different offensive lines and to great success. The likelihood that Brady had superb talent across his OLine in each of those 22 seasons is very low.

Brady is the primary example that QB's almost as much as anything else can have an impact on the effectiveness of the line in front of them. Great QB's can mask a lot of deficiencies.

In comment 15473428 eclipz928 said:

Quote:

In comment 15473220 Don Draper said: Quote: in which no QB could succeed, ergo, he sucks. No running game, 2/3 top receivers out, multiple TEs injured, and o-line is awful. And he gets no credit for cutting down turnovers by a ton. How do you think Tom Brady -- the purported GOAT -- would look in this offense? Would he magically elevate the play of his teammates and turn the offense around? How about we fix the *&^%$#@! offensive line for '22 and maybe get us some healthy WRs, TEs, and RBs, then see if Jones is still underwhelming? Tom Brady actually makes the case against Jones and QB's of middling skills. He's played in the league for 22 seasons, behind several different offensive lines and to great success. The likelihood that Brady had superb talent across his OLine in each of those 22 seasons is very low. Brady is the primary example that QB's almost as much as anything else can have an impact on the effectiveness of the line in front of them. Great QB's can mask a lot of deficiencies.

In fact, Tom Brady routinely helped turn troubled lines around. And let's not forget Solder was part of back to back AFC champions just prior to joining the Giants. And when Solder got here everyone lamented he was trash. The very next year. The QB has something to do with line performance.

I believe the Athletic did a piece about how Brady's OLs would go to other teams and take a hit in performance.

In comment 15473134 NoGainDayne said:

Quote:

In comment 15473130 Joe Beckwith said: Quote: which generally appear to put us only in the middle of the pack. It’s that the vast majority of the time either someone blows their protection that forces a quick pass, or the receiver isn’t open when Jones needs the help, or both. Watching other teams, generally the better teams , escape or roll out and find help from their ‘ hot ‘ read for > 7 yards, while we barely get more than 2-3, similar to the frustration of our receivers a yard short of a 1st down spot., is a scheme deficiency in addition to the breakdowns. Did it ever occur to you that DJ could also have hot reads that he doesn't find or hit?

Dod it rver occur to you that he isnt. This is the problem with much of the criticism of jones. Its based on assumptions re reads, progressions etc that we as fans no nothing about. What we as fans can see if an ol that routinely gives up quick presdure without teams havibg to blitz. An offense that uses almost deep routes. An offense that has to keep RBs and TEs to help block, limiting options. And an OL that cannot run block to relieve pressure on the passing game. And an OL that routinely puts the offense in long down and distance due to penalties, sacks, and sacks.

I think this OL is not as big a problem as the narrative makes it out to be...

And poor run blocking

And this o-line is trash. Jones did play a lot better with a bad Head Coach in Shurmer, I’m sure he could be an average middle of the road QB with a real head coach. Current coach has diminished everyone’s skill on this team. First things first, fix the coaching situation.

In comment 15473482 Now Mike in MD said:

Quote:

In comment 15473134 NoGainDayne said: Quote: In comment 15473130 Joe Beckwith said: Quote: which generally appear to put us only in the middle of the pack. It’s that the vast majority of the time either someone blows their protection that forces a quick pass, or the receiver isn’t open when Jones needs the help, or both. Watching other teams, generally the better teams , escape or roll out and find help from their ‘ hot ‘ read for > 7 yards, while we barely get more than 2-3, similar to the frustration of our receivers a yard short of a 1st down spot., is a scheme deficiency in addition to the breakdowns. Did it ever occur to you that DJ could also have hot reads that he doesn't find or hit? Dod it rver occur to you that he isnt. This is the problem with much of the criticism of jones. Its based on assumptions re reads, progressions etc that we as fans no nothing about. What we as fans can see if an ol that routinely gives up quick presdure without teams havibg to blitz. An offense that uses almost deep routes. An offense that has to keep RBs and TEs to help block, limiting options. And an OL that cannot run block to relieve pressure on the passing game. And an OL that routinely puts the offense in long down and distance due to penalties, sacks, and sacks.

The whole point of this thread is that there are many situations just as bad...

In comment 15473503 NoGainDayne said:

Quote:

In comment 15473482 Now Mike in MD said: Quote: In comment 15473134 NoGainDayne said: Quote: In comment 15473130 Joe Beckwith said: Quote: which generally appear to put us only in the middle of the pack. It’s that the vast majority of the time either someone blows their protection that forces a quick pass, or the receiver isn’t open when Jones needs the help, or both. Watching other teams, generally the better teams , escape or roll out and find help from their ‘ hot ‘ read for > 7 yards, while we barely get more than 2-3, similar to the frustration of our receivers a yard short of a 1st down spot., is a scheme deficiency in addition to the breakdowns. Did it ever occur to you that DJ could also have hot reads that he doesn't find or hit? Dod it rver occur to you that he isnt. This is the problem with much of the criticism of jones. Its based on assumptions re reads, progressions etc that we as fans no nothing about. What we as fans can see if an ol that routinely gives up quick presdure without teams havibg to blitz. An offense that uses almost deep routes. An offense that has to keep RBs and TEs to help block, limiting options. And an OL that cannot run block to relieve pressure on the passing game. And an OL that routinely puts the offense in long down and distance due to penalties, sacks, and sacks. The whole point of this thread is that there are many situations just as bad...

I yhink "many" is an overstaement. There are some. I watch a lot of games and the giants OL is among the worst ive seen on a regular basis.

In comment 15473503 NoGainDayne said:

Quote:

In comment 15473482 Now Mike in MD said: Quote: In comment 15473134 NoGainDayne said: Quote: In comment 15473130 Joe Beckwith said: Quote: which generally appear to put us only in the middle of the pack. It’s that the vast majority of the time either someone blows their protection that forces a quick pass, or the receiver isn’t open when Jones needs the help, or both. Watching other teams, generally the better teams , escape or roll out and find help from their ‘ hot ‘ read for > 7 yards, while we barely get more than 2-3, similar to the frustration of our receivers a yard short of a 1st down spot., is a scheme deficiency in addition to the breakdowns. Did it ever occur to you that DJ could also have hot reads that he doesn't find or hit? Dod it rver occur to you that he isnt. This is the problem with much of the criticism of jones. Its based on assumptions re reads, progressions etc that we as fans no nothing about. What we as fans can see if an ol that routinely gives up quick presdure without teams havibg to blitz. An offense that uses almost deep routes. An offense that has to keep RBs and TEs to help block, limiting options. And an OL that cannot run block to relieve pressure on the passing game. And an OL that routinely puts the offense in long down and distance due to penalties, sacks, and sacks. The whole point of this thread is that there are many situations just as bad...

And i yhink the point of the OP was that the giants ol OL is not as bad as some fans think. That its more middle of the road

In comment 15472110 Biteymax22 said:

Quote:

But not all of it. We've done everything under the sun to help our offensive line this year and protect them against themselves. We've ran max protect, we've ran play action, we've booted and rolled Jones to buy more time. This skews all these stats and helps to band aid the reality which is our offensive line has routinely played horrible all season.

This. Also those stats don’t consider blitz %. No idea what the stats are, but teams most likely don’t often send extra blitzers against the Giants because they don’t need to.

Plain and simple, I don’t care what the stats are, Jones has no time to throw and the RBs have very little room to run and that is THE main issue with this offense.

The OL is really good. lol


Holy f*ck*ng sh*t.

In comment 15473548 Scuzzlebutt said:

Quote:

In comment 15472110 Biteymax22 said: Quote: But not all of it. We've done everything under the sun to help our offensive line this year and protect them against themselves. We've ran max protect, we've ran play action, we've booted and rolled Jones to buy more time. This skews all these stats and helps to band aid the reality which is our offensive line has routinely played horrible all season. This. Also those stats don’t consider blitz %. No idea what the stats are, but teams most likely don’t often send extra blitzers against the Giants because they don’t need to. Plain and simple, I don’t care what the stats are, Jones has no time to throw and the RBs have very little room to run and that is THE main issue with this offense.

Heck they've won with a 3 man rush. Why blitz?

I am still trying to figure out what team is actually out there thinking our line is so bad we would trade places with the Giants

I think there are multiple issues at play, and it’s important to watch the games and assess the data.

The NFL game broadcast doesn’t lend itself to very good observation, especially when you have guys in the booth looking for examples that align with what they drew up in the production meetings.

In comment 15473548 Scuzzlebutt said:

Quote:

In comment 15472110 Biteymax22 said: Quote: But not all of it. We've done everything under the sun to help our offensive line this year and protect them against themselves. We've ran max protect, we've ran play action, we've booted and rolled Jones to buy more time. This skews all these stats and helps to band aid the reality which is our offensive line has routinely played horrible all season. This. Also those stats don’t consider blitz %. No idea what the stats are, but teams most likely don’t often send extra blitzers against the Giants because they don’t need to. Plain and simple, I don’t care what the stats are, Jones has no time to throw and the RBs have very little room to run and that is THE main issue with this offense.

The Giants have faced the third most blitzes in the league this season.

What's the next excuse?

Link - ( New Window )

Not for the pass. Not for the run. If you can't run, you look like Russell Wilson. Dogshit.

The area the data does not cover is the amount of times the line completely falls apart in pass pro, and how that impacts the perception for casual fans.

I bet the Giants are among the leaders in plays where defenders are untouched rushing the passer. Those disaster plays stay with some fans.

Relative to the league the Giants don’t have tremendously bad pass pro.

The real question comes down to whether the Giants have good enough pass pro for Daniel Jones.

And answering that question requires the emotional maturity to contemplate if Jones is a major part of the problem.

... You just made the statement that those that disagree with you don't know what they're looking at and they are emotionally immature.

Do you spend your Summers On the practice field and your Falls on the sidelines?

I generally respect your opinion but you are condescending to the group and we don't know that your credentials should allow the space to do that.

There's nothing wrong with you using statistics To support your case but the statistics are lacking a great deal of important information.

on the Offensive troubles. And presenting it with some relevant statistical data to question the general premise that it is primarily due to the "worst Offensive Line in football" because well, they say so.

In comment 15473813 Brown_Hornet said:

Quote:

... You just made the statement that those that disagree with you don't know what they're looking at and they are emotionally immature. Do you spend your Summers On the practice field and your Falls on the sidelines? I generally respect your opinion but you are condescending to the group and we don't know that your credentials should allow the space to do that. There's nothing wrong with you using statistics To support your case but the statistics are lacking a great deal of important information.

I think you’re misreading my post. I think it requires the requisite emotional maturity to debate what part of the problem Daniel Jones plays. And I think a number of posters on both sides of the debate let their emotions get whipped up when he’s discussed. Peruse any thread on the topic and you’ll see lots of crying.

I don’t coach football, but I do run business analytics at a multi-billion dollar operation, and my first rule is: look at the data, then figure out why.

When posters respond to data with a general sense of I don’t care what the numbers say, my eyes tell me they are the worst — I know that’s a boring debate I don’t want any part of.

I think a fair frame for the discussion is: relative to the league, the Giants are average in a number of pass protection criteria. Why then are they so bad passing the ball?

there's no place for that here :)

I don't know how you can talk about Oline play and not discuss run blocking. Currently we are 26th in total yards, 27th in YPC and a 3 way tie for 29th in rushing TD's.

In comment 15473874 christian said:

Quote:

I think you’re misreading my post. I think it requires the requisite emotional maturity to debate what part of the problem Daniel Jones plays. And I think a number of posters on both sides of the debate let their emotions get whipped up when he’s discussed. Peruse any thread on the topic and you’ll see lots of crying. I don’t coach football, but I do run business analytics at a multi-billion dollar operation, and my first rule is: look at the data, then figure out why. When posters respond to data with a general sense of I don’t care what the numbers say, my eyes tell me they are the worst — I know that’s a boring debate I don’t want any part of. I think a fair frame for the discussion is: relative to the league, the Giants are average in a number of pass protection criteria. Why then are they so bad passing the ball?

Apologies if I misread and thanks for the response....

...I can see why the analytics lead in your arguments.

I also see that you aren't really comparing the Giants OL, in terms of data, to other teams' data...if I read you correctly, you're looking for a correlation between the 2 sets of data, OL issues and points scored. (?)

As you pointed out, data is a starting point in your world. In my business, I also start with data.

In football, I start with my eyes. I have been fortunate enough to coach with the OL group this past season. This doesn't make me any kind of expert, but it does allow me to spend time breaking down sideline vs endzone views of every snap with other OL coaches.
Situational/schematic/talent differences of the defenses make all the difference.
I can face a myriad of blitz schemes and have time to throw, I can face virtually no blitzes and the QB is under duress all game.
Also, the effectiveness of the run game has a huge impact on the passing game, especially from that standpoint of % of effective passing plays.

If the OC is playing the quick game we may have a high % of effective passes. If he's confident that the OL is playing well, he may be inclined to take more shots, lowering the %.
The ydg and scoring in each situation may be the same...
...the ground game is the difference maker.

As I said earlier in the thread, it does not matter, to me, where the Giants OL is with regards to their statistical position vs. the field.

DJ has the ability to make off schedule plays. He has arm talent and can run. He is fearless...likely to a fault.
But because he does not have time to process, or lacks the ability to do it before his back foot hits the ground, he probably has no future with the Giants.

I think that he may go elsewhere and shine. But because this team was built ass-backwards, I think that a new GM likely has to move on.

In comment 15473930 JOrthman said:

Quote:

I don't know how you can talk about Oline play and not discuss run blocking. Currently we are 26th in total yards, 27th in YPC and a 3 way tie for 29th in rushing TD's.

Because the context arose from a conversation centered on Jones, and how he was being forced to operate behind the worst OL in the NFL (some went so far as to call it "historically bad."

And I don't dispute that the run blocking is bad, and that it does create many unfavorable situations for the offense (DJ included), the point of the thread was to illustrate specifically that the Giants' OL is nowhere near the worst in the league when it comes to pass pro.

In comment 15473930 JOrthman said:

Quote:

I don't know how you can talk about Oline play and not discuss run blocking. Currently we are 26th in total yards, 27th in YPC and a 3 way tie for 29th in rushing TD's.

Those are definitely bad results, but there’s another variable in that equation which is the running backs.

It’s difficult to assign cause when only looking at results.

Brown_Hornet — First, I’d like to acknowledge/express my appreciation for you being a respectful and fun poster to debate football. I enjoy your posts.

My sense is Jones has the talent to be a long term starter in the NFL. I think success for first round quarterbacks is typically dictated by the stability of the coaching and management.

I don’t think the Giants have a well architected team, very good talent, nor good coaching or game planning.

I think the failures are bigger than bad offensive line.

I think the Giants could improve the line, and we’d see less plays fall apart. But in aggregate I don’t believe just improving the line is going to equate to a good offense.

In comment 15474054 christian said:

Quote:

Brown_Hornet — First, I’d like to acknowledge/express my appreciation for you being a respectful and fun poster to debate football. I enjoy your posts. My sense is Jones has the talent to be a long term starter in the NFL. I think success for first round quarterbacks is typically dictated by the stability of the coaching and management. I don’t think the Giants have a well architected team, very good talent, nor good coaching or game planning. I think the failures are bigger than bad offensive line. I think the Giants could improve the line, and we’d see less plays fall apart. But in aggregate I don’t believe just improving the line is going to equate to a good offense.

Agreed.

Work to be done.

In comment 15472102 PEEJ said:

Quote:

by the fact that Garrett never threw downfield (where pass pro has to stand up more). Every passing play was 3-5 yds. Garrett cut the balls off the offense

Stats are also skewed because they don't take into account how many rushers the defense is sending. We've seen this line give up consistent pressure against 4 rushers, and even 3 rushers.

These stats also don't address run blocking at all.

This isn't to say that these states are trash or meaningless, just that they don't (can't) tell the whole story.

In comment 15474054 christian said:

Quote:

Brown_Hornet — First, I’d like to acknowledge/express my appreciation for you being a respectful and fun poster to debate football. I enjoy your posts. My sense is Jones has the talent to be a long term starter in the NFL. I think success for first round quarterbacks is typically dictated by the stability of the coaching and management. I don’t think the Giants have a well architected team, very good talent, nor good coaching or game planning. I think the failures are bigger than bad offensive line. I think the Giants could improve the line, and we’d see less plays fall apart. But in aggregate I don’t believe just improving the line is going to equate to a good offense.

Christian I agree with everything you posted here. That's a great post. I personally do think that actual consistent average OL play and better pass rush has right in the mix in the NFC playoff picture though, even with Garrett still in as OC.

In comment 15474054 christian said:

Quote:

Brown_Hornet — First, I’d like to acknowledge/express my appreciation for you being a respectful and fun poster to debate football. I enjoy your posts. My sense is Jones has the talent to be a long term starter in the NFL. I think success for first round quarterbacks is typically dictated by the stability of the coaching and management. I don’t think the Giants have a well architected team, very good talent, nor good coaching or game planning. I think the failures are bigger than bad offensive line. I think the Giants could improve the line, and we’d see less plays fall apart. But in aggregate I don’t believe just improving the line is going to equate to a good offense.

Respectfully, what *talent* has Jones shown that would project him as a long term starter in the NFL? It is comical at this point that people keep making these assertions. He ranks in the bottom 10 of every important statistical metric and he fails the eye test in almost every regard.

What do you see? A few pretty spirals deep down the middle? Every pro QB can do that. Every backup.

People are already clamoring for Jones to be replaced, so what team would have him as a long term starter? A dumber one than the Giants? Is that what you are banking on?

If you are the 25th ranked QB in the NFL, you are fodder. It's not good enough for any team. You are a guy that gets cycled in when you have a QB crisis, and cycled back out when you find a kid with upside.

Jones is not a long term starter in the NFL. He is more likely to be out of the NFL in three years than to be any one team's long term starter.

In comment 15474224 Producer said:

Quote:

In comment 15474054 christian said: Quote: Brown_Hornet — First, I’d like to acknowledge/express my appreciation for you being a respectful and fun poster to debate football. I enjoy your posts. My sense is Jones has the talent to be a long term starter in the NFL. I think success for first round quarterbacks is typically dictated by the stability of the coaching and management. I don’t think the Giants have a well architected team, very good talent, nor good coaching or game planning. I think the failures are bigger than bad offensive line. I think the Giants could improve the line, and we’d see less plays fall apart. But in aggregate I don’t believe just improving the line is going to equate to a good offense. Respectfully, what *talent* has Jones shown that would project him as a long term starter in the NFL? It is comical at this point that people keep making these assertions. He ranks in the bottom 10 of every important statistical metric and he fails the eye test in almost every regard. What do you see? A few pretty spirals deep down the middle? Every pro QB can do that. Every backup. People are already clamoring for Jones to be replaced, so what team would have him as a long term starter? A dumber one than the Giants? Is that what you are banking on? If you are the 25th ranked QB in the NFL, you are fodder. It's not good enough for any team. You are a guy that gets cycled in when you have a QB crisis, and cycled back out when you find a kid with upside. Jones is not a long term starter in the NFL. He is more likely to be out of the NFL in three years than to be any one team's long term starter.

Let us know when you are sitting as a paid employee on the staff of an NFL team. Maybe then the absolutes and condescending language you use to rehash this OPINION over and over and over and over again will be more readily accepted.

In comment 15474248 Johnny5 said:

Quote:

In comment 15474224 Producer said: Quote: In comment 15474054 christian said: Quote: Brown_Hornet — First, I’d like to acknowledge/express my appreciation for you being a respectful and fun poster to debate football. I enjoy your posts. My sense is Jones has the talent to be a long term starter in the NFL. I think success for first round quarterbacks is typically dictated by the stability of the coaching and management. I don’t think the Giants have a well architected team, very good talent, nor good coaching or game planning. I think the failures are bigger than bad offensive line. I think the Giants could improve the line, and we’d see less plays fall apart. But in aggregate I don’t believe just improving the line is going to equate to a good offense. Respectfully, what *talent* has Jones shown that would project him as a long term starter in the NFL? It is comical at this point that people keep making these assertions. He ranks in the bottom 10 of every important statistical metric and he fails the eye test in almost every regard. What do you see? A few pretty spirals deep down the middle? Every pro QB can do that. Every backup. People are already clamoring for Jones to be replaced, so what team would have him as a long term starter? A dumber one than the Giants? Is that what you are banking on? If you are the 25th ranked QB in the NFL, you are fodder. It's not good enough for any team. You are a guy that gets cycled in when you have a QB crisis, and cycled back out when you find a kid with upside. Jones is not a long term starter in the NFL. He is more likely to be out of the NFL in three years than to be any one team's long term starter. Let us know when you are sitting as a paid employee on the staff of an NFL team. Maybe then the absolutes and condescending language you use to rehash this OPINION over and over and over and over again will be more readily accepted.

So now I have to be a paid employee of an NFL team to state an opinion on a message board? I think you have forgotten this is a fan forum. I'm sure you are a nice guy irl but on here you act like a fucking douchebag. I give you observations about the team and the players, and you attack me, literally unprovoked. Hey Johnny, sometimes you are going to encounter people who don't agree with you and have different opinions than you. And I can tell you as a professional writer and producer there is literally nothing *condescending* in that reply. You are just being a sensitive prick.

And my opinion is as good as anybody's on here. I have overseen large teams and operations in an entertainment field. I have made consequential personnel decisions. I have been a sports fan for 5 decades. I have forgotten more sports than you have probably consumed. And believe it or not I am open to honest debate and disagreement, and open to changing my mind. But - "you're condescending" and other personal attacks just indicate you have no counter.