There is a lot of buzz around Kenny Pickett. Jersey kid with moxie and toughness comparable to Joe Burrow. I've heard early predictions as the first QB off the board somewhere from 3-6. Again, it's early yet and I haven't had much time to watch so I'll lean on my guys still doing it for a living and suggest if NYG plans to move on from Jones and draft a new QB, then it should be for this kid.
A Free Agent addition wouldn't give you much more than Jones so players like Mariota, Minshew, and Trubisky would most likely just create a QB controversy unless of course, you trade Jones and draft one in an attempt to hedge your bet.
An alternative could be a trade. Watson seems unlikely for NYG unless all charges are dropped against him. Wilson, from what I hear is a fantasy. The realistic trade target would be Jimmy G who wouldn't cost near as much and would give the Giants a vet to start while the young QB develops.
I don't think the Jury is out on Jones quite yet but you're getting closer to the verdict.. a lot will depend on if ownership decides to keep Judge. If they get rid of Judge I don't see any new GM/HC combo hitching their wagon to Jones.
The 8.3M in guarantees on Jones are a sunk cost, there’s no new money that accelerates if he’s cut.
If the Giants cut Jones after the end of this season there’s no change positive or negative to his cap hit.
The best cap outcome is to trade Jones before his roster bonus is due (presumably the first day of the league year) and the Giants would save about 4M.
So there isn't a financial advantage to be had for making what would likely be a lateral move at the position on another fringe vet starter. I can understand wanting to get another prospect in the pipeline ASAP but he's a perfectly fine 1 year veteran bridge guy from a cost standpoint.
as a thought experiment: we don't have Baltimore's offensive line, running backs, receivers. We currently don't have a front office that can get us any of those things consistently. We don't have an offensive coordinator (maybe not even a head coach) or scheme that specializes in running quarterbacks like Baltimore does.
Jackson is Willis' upside comparison and basically all of the elements that allowed Jackson to be successful then until now are not in place here.
We may never see Willis' upside in our current situation, so all that's left is downside risk.
And of course we need a front office and a coaching staff that's in sync with that front office. Just not a good situation until we see some certainty in those areas. Keeping Judge would also be a negative.
The 8.3M in guarantees on Jones are a sunk cost, there’s no new money that accelerates if he’s cut.
If the Giants cut Jones after the end of this season there’s no change positive or negative to his cap hit.
The best cap outcome is to trade Jones before his roster bonus is due (presumably the first day of the league year) and the Giants would save about 4M.
So there isn't a financial advantage to be had for making what would likely be a lateral move at the position on another fringe vet starter. I can understand wanting to get another prospect in the pipeline ASAP but he's a perfectly fine 1 year veteran bridge guy from a cost standpoint.
The advantage of trading Jones is twofold even if you remove any cap savings:
1. You get something for him in trade
2. You eliminate the possibility that Mara pays him an extension
There is a lot of buzz around Kenny Pickett. Jersey kid with moxie and toughness comparable to Joe Burrow. I've heard early predictions as the first QB off the board somewhere from 3-6. Again, it's early yet and I haven't had much time to watch so I'll lean on my guys still doing it for a living and suggest if NYG plans to move on from Jones and draft a new QB, then it should be for this kid.
A Free Agent addition wouldn't give you much more than Jones so players like Mariota, Minshew, and Trubisky would most likely just create a QB controversy unless of course, you trade Jones and draft one in an attempt to hedge your bet.
An alternative could be a trade. Watson seems unlikely for NYG unless all charges are dropped against him. Wilson, from what I hear is a fantasy. The realistic trade target would be Jimmy G who wouldn't cost near as much and would give the Giants a vet to start while the young QB develops.
I don't think the Jury is out on Jones quite yet but you're getting closer to the verdict.. a lot will depend on if ownership decides to keep Judge. If they get rid of Judge I don't see any new GM/HC combo hitching their wagon to Jones.
Kenny Pickett is not Joe Burrow. Pickett, for 4 seasons, failed to put up numbers even comparable to what Burrow put up in his first season at LSU after not really having meaningful game reps for YEARS prior to that season. Burrow's tremendous year at LSU was his second year at LSU. Pickett has had a great year this year, but I am skeptical. Did he finally realize something after 2020 season that has now been corrected? If so, that would indicate that 2021 is a better indicator of things to come. On the other hand, is his success this year attributed to the fact that he is basically playing some of the same teams for the 5th time whereas his opponents are 1st time starters? If that is the case, that means his first 4 years posting numbers that likely would get him drafted Late Day 3 if at all is a more accurate measure of his future.
Lol. I guess sometimes if you don’t his “show all” you probably won’t see all the posts. I think I did that here. Okay, I now see your answer….you like Watson and apparently don’t seem to care about his possible transgressions. And you like Carr.
Just curious….How would the Giants pay Watson’s salary and stay within the cap? We are already almost maxed out for 2022.
I also see you named about 4 college kids you like…are you saying we should take one of them in round one if we don’t pick up Watson, Wilson, or Carr?
I don't think it would be that much of a challenge to crowbar Watson's salary under the cap. A few of us have done that exercise and we could renegotiate the out years. But it's an exercise in futility because Mara will kill any chance of that deal.
I'm not sure where I would take these college QBs. From a physical talent standpoint, Willis and Ridder are first round talents. But there are reasonable counter points to say they are second day prospects. I just need to see more...
Pickett is the most polished - to me - as a thrower. And I think that, along, with this solid athleticism, puts him squarely in the first round.
I agree that there are potentially other advantages though. It entirely rests on what our options are. I just don't see eating Jones' cap costs and then paying another journeyman for a year as being viable if that is our best option.
I have no interest in speculating on what our options could be in April, no idea where we are drafting and I personally don't have a handle on the QB class. Ideally you do what the Jets do with Darnold. Hopefully that option is on the table.
The 8.3M in guarantees on Jones are a sunk cost, there’s no new money that accelerates if he’s cut.
If the Giants cut Jones after the end of this season there’s no change positive or negative to his cap hit.
The best cap outcome is to trade Jones before his roster bonus is due (presumably the first day of the league year) and the Giants would save about 4M.
So there isn't a financial advantage to be had for making what would likely be a lateral move at the position on another fringe vet starter. I can understand wanting to get another prospect in the pipeline ASAP but he's a perfectly fine 1 year veteran bridge guy from a cost standpoint.
The advantage of trading Jones is twofold even if you remove any cap savings:
1. You get something for him in trade
2. You eliminate the possibility that Mara pays him an extension
If DG is gone and replaced by someone from the outside, that is the last person with the clout to push for signing a player that was also involved in drafting of Jones. Mara does not give a sh*t about DG's legacy if Judge and the new GM are both saying they don't want Jones signed to an extension. By your logic we should never have anyone on the roster who is not planning on retiring because Mara may pay for an extension.
take a QB in the first 3 rounds, trade up or down if you have to for value. Take another one in rounds 4-6.
Bank as much cap as possible. If one of them hits great. Do the same thing next year until you find someone.
If that doesn't work and you have an OL and DL capable of keeping you a decent team with mediocre to bad QB play. Trade a bounty of picks for a proven veteran or a top of draft QB you are highly confident in.
This isn't rocket science but the Giants would have you believe it is and also that they are just unlucky rocket scientists.
There is a lot of buzz around Kenny Pickett. Jersey kid with moxie and toughness comparable to Joe Burrow. I've heard early predictions as the first QB off the board somewhere from 3-6. Again, it's early yet and I haven't had much time to watch so I'll lean on my guys still doing it for a living and suggest if NYG plans to move on from Jones and draft a new QB, then it should be for this kid.
I don't see it in Pickett at all. I don't see more than average arm strength and athleticism. He looks like an NFL backup to me.
These preseason QB rankings get shuffled every year come draft time because NFL projection is very different from college production.
My eyes and gut tell me the upside of Corral, Willis, and Howell don't warrant a high pick.
I'm leaning toward stopgap vet + maybe a developmental project like the Tennessee kid later in the draft. Draft offensive line and defense heavily.
Howell is the wildcard. He was great his first two years because UNC had more talent around him. But four of those players - both WRs and both RBs - got drafted. And their OL has gone an overhaul. So he's been under a lot of pressure this year. Howell he is a lot like Corral - tough, gritty and a plus arm, but a better, more durable body. But I'm down on his decision making this year and can't get him back into round one.
Hendon Hooker is absolutely an interesting later round prospect.
These preseason QB rankings get shuffled every year come draft time because NFL projection is very different from college production.
My eyes and gut tell me the upside of Corral, Willis, and Howell don't warrant a high pick.
I'm leaning toward stopgap vet + maybe a developmental project like the Tennessee kid later in the draft. Draft offensive line and defense heavily.
Howell is the wildcard. He was great his first two years because UNC had more talent around him. But four of those players - both WRs and both RBs - got drafted. And their OL has gone an overhaul. So he's been under a lot of pressure this year. Howell he is a lot like Corral - tough, gritty and a plus arm, but a better, more durable body. But I'm down on his decision making this year and can't get him back into round one.
Hendon Hooker is absolutely an interesting later round prospect.
If we are talking about later round guys, Kaleb Eleby of Western Michigan is one who interests me if he declares.
If we are talking about later round guys, Kaleb Eleby of Western Michigan is one who interests me if he declares.
Haven't seen him play. I have read about him.
For me, Jake Haener is the later round project that is interesting. Had a great year with Frez St. Just makes a ton of plays - a lot in the clutch - and he can sling it. I saw him against UCLA and he was out of his mind good.
as a thought experiment: we don't have Baltimore's offensive line, running backs, receivers. We currently don't have a front office that can get us any of those things consistently. We don't have an offensive coordinator (maybe not even a head coach) or scheme that specializes in running quarterbacks like Baltimore does.
Jackson is Willis' upside comparison and basically all of the elements that allowed Jackson to be successful then until now are not in place here.
We may never see Willis' upside in our current situation, so all that's left is downside risk.
We should build the lines first.
Bingo. Too many people think Lamar went out there by himself and succeeded. A lot went into his success and I don’t trust anyone currently connected to this organization to build a similar supporting cast for any of the young QBs in the draft, let alone Willis.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: You guys realize Trubisky is awful and
I am hesitant to draft a QB to replace Jones because we still have no OL and questionable talent due to injuries and inconsistency. Why would we believe another QB would step our of college to this team and have significantly more success than Jones?
This is why Gettleman should be fired already and we shouldn't do him the courtesy of waiting on retirement. He drafted Barkley at #2 and Jones at #6 back to back and still has a shitty OL. Our 2 huge draft investments, the biggest in years, were never fully supported or set up to succeed
The reason they won’t hate on him is because they are willing to give him more time for Jax to surround him with better talent. But these Jones haters made up their mind very early in Jones career. Some after one season, some after the second season. They don’t care about his surrounding talent….and none of them want him to succeed because it would make them look stupid.
So yeah….I’m taking notes on the Jones haters to see who they want to be our QB next year so I can keep reminding them how their guy is doing. But I suppose few if any of those guys will want to go on record….they are more critics than fans. You only hear from them when something is going poorly.
Is this Dave Gettle's nephew or are you just a couple cans short of six pack right there. Taking these forumsa a little personal huh?
is a better QB than Darnold at this point...for sure...however...
when Darnold left the Jets I think teams really used their draft grades as a measure on what to give up for him and I think league execs (generally speaking) were higher on Darnold when he was drafted than Jones.
I think NFL execs made the same kinds of excuses for Darnold as I see here on BBI with Jones except he doesn't have the same high draft marks.
Darnold is better. He has a better arm ; can make a broader range of throw and is still mobile. Cam Newton just like I siad is going to throw a bunch of picks. It is hard to play well on a team that has a bad oline and is talent deficient. I think the Panthers are about what the Giants are with better coaching. Bad teams can make good QBs look bad. That is not to say Jones is a good QB or that we should wait around see what he can do.
Didn't we just see Darnold with a better roster around him lose to Jones? Jones is better than Darnold.
Now whether we'd get as much for Jones - I don't think we would. Darnold was seen as a high first round pick who you could roll the dice on and maybe turn into something. Jones is seen as an overdrafted guy from the beginning.
Better roster? What better roster? Their oline is the same as ours ; they had no McCaff and they certainly don’t have our wideouts. The d showed up to play it was nothing jones did it was 3-5.
Darnold will get more because well he’s a better QB.
I actually think the about value this year is in rd 2
but anyone saying that bringing him back next year without competition is nuts. Are we going to just keep making rationalizations for the guy for the next 2 years? He's been dealt a crappy hand with the terrible OL/injuries but the guy never elevates those around him. Especially in the redzone. I'm for either.
A. Punting next year. The cap is awful. So bring in a vet (tyrod taylor) for an actual qb competition. In no way should he be the assumed starter. He 100% has not earned that.
B. Draft a qb if someone not named Dave Gettleman finds a guy who is a good value, whether it be round 1 or later. Fine with that guy competing with Jones and whoever plays better gets the job.
If Jones goes on a roll, the WRs come back healthy and Freddy lets him air it out this discussion will end. I liken Jones to Phil Simms, it took Phil a couple of years to come into his own.
Ive never seen so many pulled muscles in my life though
Who is the WRs coach? Are these guys not doing enough stretching before games and during them on the sidelines?
gives you everything Jones does at a low price where there is no need for a long-term commitment while the rest of the team is built up. Spend draft picks in other areas. Basically the Buffalo plan.
If Jones goes on a roll, the WRs come back healthy and Freddy lets him air it out this discussion will end. I liken Jones to Phil Simms, it took Phil a couple of years to come into his own.
Ive never seen so many pulled muscles in my life though
Who is the WRs coach? Are these guys not doing enough stretching before games and during them on the sidelines?
You mean now that Jints Central counter-espionage efforts have outed the sleeper cell Jerrah injected into the team? Good plan.
There is a lot of buzz around Kenny Pickett. Jersey kid with moxie and toughness comparable to Joe Burrow. I've heard early predictions as the first QB off the board somewhere from 3-6. Again, it's early yet and I haven't had much time to watch so I'll lean on my guys still doing it for a living and suggest if NYG plans to move on from Jones and draft a new QB, then it should be for this kid.
A Free Agent addition wouldn't give you much more than Jones so players like Mariota, Minshew, and Trubisky would most likely just create a QB controversy unless of course, you trade Jones and draft one in an attempt to hedge your bet.
An alternative could be a trade. Watson seems unlikely for NYG unless all charges are dropped against him. Wilson, from what I hear is a fantasy. The realistic trade target would be Jimmy G who wouldn't cost near as much and would give the Giants a vet to start while the young QB develops.
I don't think the Jury is out on Jones quite yet but you're getting closer to the verdict.. a lot will depend on if ownership decides to keep Judge. If they get rid of Judge I don't see any new GM/HC combo hitching their wagon to Jones.
Kenny Pickett is not Joe Burrow. Pickett, for 4 seasons, failed to put up numbers even comparable to what Burrow put up in his first season at LSU after not really having meaningful game reps for YEARS prior to that season. Burrow's tremendous year at LSU was his second year at LSU. Pickett has had a great year this year, but I am skeptical. Did he finally realize something after 2020 season that has now been corrected? If so, that would indicate that 2021 is a better indicator of things to come. On the other hand, is his success this year attributed to the fact that he is basically playing some of the same teams for the 5th time whereas his opponents are 1st time starters? If that is the case, that means his first 4 years posting numbers that likely would get him drafted Late Day 3 if at all is a more accurate measure of his future.
Mike, you wasted your time there. I said, his moxie and toughness are being compared to Burrow.
how scared some are of throwing big money at a big name QB.
It's far scarier going with a kid. History has proven this time and time again.
I don't know what to do because we don't know what this off-season will bring, but if Wilson and Rodgers are there to be had, you absolutely have to explore it if you're NYG.
Teams have fixed shit on the backs of a vet FA QB signing. It can be done. If the VET doesn't win here, fine, we should be used to it by now. We have a VET team with a lot of signed deals. Want to get the most out of Galladay or do you want to bitch and moan about his 3-50 stat line every week? Trust me, Wilson or Rodgers gets more out of him.
We need a savior. I don't care if we don't win a super bowl and are up against the cap every year. I want playoff appearances. More wins than losses once in a while? Maybe beat Dallas when shit matters just one time?
Or, draft a kid and try this shit all over again. Watch another HC get fired here UNLESS we step in shit and the kid is 100% ready made to deal with the most chaotic and difficult job in pro sports.
Or, take the easy way out and sign a HOF QB for draft picks.
I was thinking the same the other day, after watching Ridder
play again. I have seen him a lot the last couple of years.
He's not the sexy pick, but he could develop into a good one.
I just don't think the Giants will move on from Jones yet,
as much as some would like that to happen.
is that Pickett will be 24 years old before the start of the 2022 NFL season
And? The trend is good QBs are playing into their 40s.
The only variable I care about is finding a good QB.
What QB's other than Brady and Brees have played into their 40's lately and at a high level? Brees also had a noticeable drop off the last year (at 41) and Ben is most likely done after this year at 39.
is throwing good money after bad given the state of our O-Line. We need 3 new O-linemen this offseason. We also need a legit edge rusher and a coverage LB before we go anymore skill positions.
Run it with DJ next year and see where we stand at the end of the season with a new GM
However, how many still have the arm at that age? There's Rodgers, Ben (who's arm is diminished) and Brady right now? Am I missing anyone (honest question)? The rules may favor the ability too, whether the body/arm holds up is another question.
I'd still much rather spend the capital to invest in the OL/DL/Front 7 first and build up the trenches. That way, no matter whether it's Jones or a QB to be named later, they have a solid OL in front of them.
Maybe Pickett. Need to see it play out. Jones can be cut next year and cost us only 200k. I would save the 8 million and play Glennon if I had to in 2022. I think there will be better that shakes loose than Glennon though.
However, how many still have the arm at that age? There's Rodgers, Ben (who's arm is diminished) and Brady right now? Am I missing anyone (honest question)? The rules may favor the ability too, whether the body/arm holds up is another question.
I'd still much rather spend the capital to invest in the OL/DL/Front 7 first and build up the trenches. That way, no matter whether it's Jones or a QB to be named later, they have a solid OL in front of them.
I hear you on upgrading the OL. I'm all in and have beat that drum endlessly until my hands have bled.
The quagmire, however, is we need - IMV - a better OL and a better QB. I'm fine trying to find the QB solution in either the draft or seeing viable options in the NFL market after the season ends.
My original post was addressing ryan's issue with Pickett's age. And that I don't think we should dwell on that but, instead, decide if he's a good QB for us.
My original post was addressing ryan's issue with Pickett's age. And that I don't think we should dwell on that but, instead, decide if he's a good QB for us.
It's hard to believe people are using Pickett's age against him, as if losing 2-3 years off the back end of his career would be a big deal if he was good enough to play for that long in the first place.
Good God. Daniel Jones is 24 now and he stinks, so maybe we don't need to worry about whether or not a potential replacement will still be here in the year 2037.
My original post was addressing ryan's issue with Pickett's age. And that I don't think we should dwell on that but, instead, decide if he's a good QB for us.
It's hard to believe people are using Pickett's age against him, as if losing 2-3 years off the back end of his career would be a big deal if he was good enough to play for that long in the first place.
Good God. Daniel Jones is 24 now and he stinks, so maybe we don't need to worry about whether or not a potential replacement will still be here in the year 2037.
I do not think it is the 2-3 years off the back end of his career that worries teams, it is the fact that he is more physically mature than his opponents and why didn't he show any of this the last 4 years? If he was 24 but was relatively new to college QB position because he was playing minor league baseball and putting up these numbers I think that would be more attractive to teams.
Better roster? What better roster? Their oline is the same as ours ; they had no McCaff and they certainly don’t have our wideouts. The d showed up to play it was nothing jones did it was 3-5.
Darnold will get more because well he’s a better QB.
Panthers defense is better than NYG's and when the Giants played them, they had no one who scares anyone. His starters were Darius Slayton and Dante Pettis.
Panthers DJ Moore and Robby Anderson are very underrated.
but anyone saying that bringing him back next year without competition is nuts. Are we going to just keep making rationalizations for the guy for the next 2 years? He's been dealt a crappy hand with the terrible OL/injuries but the guy never elevates those around him. Especially in the redzone. I'm for either.
Because legitimate QB competition costs money and I'm a firm believer in the cliche that "if you have 2 QBs you don't have 1". I don't see the point in going 2X plus on our QB cap spend to end up in exactly the same place - a poor starting QB. The Bears did this with Trubisky/Foles and it was a giant waste of cap dollars.
Either cut bait completely and grab a new prospect or ride Jones as your cheap bridge QB. There shouldn't be a middle ground. There are zero savings, only additional cap spend, to having another washout veteran QB compete or replace Jones. Even bad starting QBs aren't cheap, anybody brought in will have incentives baked into that contract that will balloon that value to market floor rate of 10m set by Fitzpatrick and Tyrod this year. Trubisky may be making 2.5m this year but he was signed to be a backup, not compete with Josh Allen.
A Free Agent addition wouldn't give you much more than Jones so players like Mariota, Minshew, and Trubisky would most likely just create a QB controversy unless of course, you trade Jones and draft one in an attempt to hedge your bet.
An alternative could be a trade. Watson seems unlikely for NYG unless all charges are dropped against him. Wilson, from what I hear is a fantasy. The realistic trade target would be Jimmy G who wouldn't cost near as much and would give the Giants a vet to start while the young QB develops.
I don't think the Jury is out on Jones quite yet but you're getting closer to the verdict.. a lot will depend on if ownership decides to keep Judge. If they get rid of Judge I don't see any new GM/HC combo hitching their wagon to Jones.
If the Giants cut Jones after the end of this season there’s no change positive or negative to his cap hit.
The best cap outcome is to trade Jones before his roster bonus is due (presumably the first day of the league year) and the Giants would save about 4M.
So there isn't a financial advantage to be had for making what would likely be a lateral move at the position on another fringe vet starter. I can understand wanting to get another prospect in the pipeline ASAP but he's a perfectly fine 1 year veteran bridge guy from a cost standpoint.
Jackson is Willis' upside comparison and basically all of the elements that allowed Jackson to be successful then until now are not in place here.
We may never see Willis' upside in our current situation, so all that's left is downside risk.
We should build the lines first.
And of course we need a front office and a coaching staff that's in sync with that front office. Just not a good situation until we see some certainty in those areas. Keeping Judge would also be a negative.
As for the Liberty QB, that seems like a hell of a risk to me. Either way, you are going to get people saying, "I told you I was right about him!"
There is a lot more content on this thread than just Corral and Willis.
Willis is no more of a risk than Jones. Our GM took him based on his Senior Bowl practices. And Willis is more physically gifted than Jones.
Quote:
The 8.3M in guarantees on Jones are a sunk cost, there’s no new money that accelerates if he’s cut.
If the Giants cut Jones after the end of this season there’s no change positive or negative to his cap hit.
The best cap outcome is to trade Jones before his roster bonus is due (presumably the first day of the league year) and the Giants would save about 4M.
So there isn't a financial advantage to be had for making what would likely be a lateral move at the position on another fringe vet starter. I can understand wanting to get another prospect in the pipeline ASAP but he's a perfectly fine 1 year veteran bridge guy from a cost standpoint.
The advantage of trading Jones is twofold even if you remove any cap savings:
1. You get something for him in trade
2. You eliminate the possibility that Mara pays him an extension
A Free Agent addition wouldn't give you much more than Jones so players like Mariota, Minshew, and Trubisky would most likely just create a QB controversy unless of course, you trade Jones and draft one in an attempt to hedge your bet.
An alternative could be a trade. Watson seems unlikely for NYG unless all charges are dropped against him. Wilson, from what I hear is a fantasy. The realistic trade target would be Jimmy G who wouldn't cost near as much and would give the Giants a vet to start while the young QB develops.
I don't think the Jury is out on Jones quite yet but you're getting closer to the verdict.. a lot will depend on if ownership decides to keep Judge. If they get rid of Judge I don't see any new GM/HC combo hitching their wagon to Jones.
Kenny Pickett is not Joe Burrow. Pickett, for 4 seasons, failed to put up numbers even comparable to what Burrow put up in his first season at LSU after not really having meaningful game reps for YEARS prior to that season. Burrow's tremendous year at LSU was his second year at LSU. Pickett has had a great year this year, but I am skeptical. Did he finally realize something after 2020 season that has now been corrected? If so, that would indicate that 2021 is a better indicator of things to come. On the other hand, is his success this year attributed to the fact that he is basically playing some of the same teams for the 5th time whereas his opponents are 1st time starters? If that is the case, that means his first 4 years posting numbers that likely would get him drafted Late Day 3 if at all is a more accurate measure of his future.
My eyes and gut tell me the upside of Corral, Willis, and Howell don't warrant a high pick.
I'm leaning toward stopgap vet + maybe a developmental project like the Tennessee kid later in the draft. Draft offensive line and defense heavily.
Lol. I guess sometimes if you don’t his “show all” you probably won’t see all the posts. I think I did that here. Okay, I now see your answer….you like Watson and apparently don’t seem to care about his possible transgressions. And you like Carr.
Just curious….How would the Giants pay Watson’s salary and stay within the cap? We are already almost maxed out for 2022.
I also see you named about 4 college kids you like…are you saying we should take one of them in round one if we don’t pick up Watson, Wilson, or Carr?
I don't think it would be that much of a challenge to crowbar Watson's salary under the cap. A few of us have done that exercise and we could renegotiate the out years. But it's an exercise in futility because Mara will kill any chance of that deal.
I'm not sure where I would take these college QBs. From a physical talent standpoint, Willis and Ridder are first round talents. But there are reasonable counter points to say they are second day prospects. I just need to see more...
Pickett is the most polished - to me - as a thrower. And I think that, along, with this solid athleticism, puts him squarely in the first round.
I have no interest in speculating on what our options could be in April, no idea where we are drafting and I personally don't have a handle on the QB class. Ideally you do what the Jets do with Darnold. Hopefully that option is on the table.
Quote:
In comment 15472959 christian said:
Quote:
The 8.3M in guarantees on Jones are a sunk cost, there’s no new money that accelerates if he’s cut.
If the Giants cut Jones after the end of this season there’s no change positive or negative to his cap hit.
The best cap outcome is to trade Jones before his roster bonus is due (presumably the first day of the league year) and the Giants would save about 4M.
So there isn't a financial advantage to be had for making what would likely be a lateral move at the position on another fringe vet starter. I can understand wanting to get another prospect in the pipeline ASAP but he's a perfectly fine 1 year veteran bridge guy from a cost standpoint.
The advantage of trading Jones is twofold even if you remove any cap savings:
1. You get something for him in trade
2. You eliminate the possibility that Mara pays him an extension
If DG is gone and replaced by someone from the outside, that is the last person with the clout to push for signing a player that was also involved in drafting of Jones. Mara does not give a sh*t about DG's legacy if Judge and the new GM are both saying they don't want Jones signed to an extension. By your logic we should never have anyone on the roster who is not planning on retiring because Mara may pay for an extension.
The advantage of trading Jones is twofold even if you remove any cap savings:
1. You get something for him in trade
2. You eliminate the possibility that Mara pays him an extension
I would prefer to renegotiate his contract and keep him as our #2 QB at a rate commensurate with that role.
Bank as much cap as possible. If one of them hits great. Do the same thing next year until you find someone.
If that doesn't work and you have an OL and DL capable of keeping you a decent team with mediocre to bad QB play. Trade a bounty of picks for a proven veteran or a top of draft QB you are highly confident in.
This isn't rocket science but the Giants would have you believe it is and also that they are just unlucky rocket scientists.
I don't see it in Pickett at all. I don't see more than average arm strength and athleticism. He looks like an NFL backup to me.
My eyes and gut tell me the upside of Corral, Willis, and Howell don't warrant a high pick.
I'm leaning toward stopgap vet + maybe a developmental project like the Tennessee kid later in the draft. Draft offensive line and defense heavily.
Howell is the wildcard. He was great his first two years because UNC had more talent around him. But four of those players - both WRs and both RBs - got drafted. And their OL has gone an overhaul. So he's been under a lot of pressure this year. Howell he is a lot like Corral - tough, gritty and a plus arm, but a better, more durable body. But I'm down on his decision making this year and can't get him back into round one.
Hendon Hooker is absolutely an interesting later round prospect.
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These preseason QB rankings get shuffled every year come draft time because NFL projection is very different from college production.
My eyes and gut tell me the upside of Corral, Willis, and Howell don't warrant a high pick.
I'm leaning toward stopgap vet + maybe a developmental project like the Tennessee kid later in the draft. Draft offensive line and defense heavily.
Howell is the wildcard. He was great his first two years because UNC had more talent around him. But four of those players - both WRs and both RBs - got drafted. And their OL has gone an overhaul. So he's been under a lot of pressure this year. Howell he is a lot like Corral - tough, gritty and a plus arm, but a better, more durable body. But I'm down on his decision making this year and can't get him back into round one.
Hendon Hooker is absolutely an interesting later round prospect.
If we are talking about later round guys, Kaleb Eleby of Western Michigan is one who interests me if he declares.
Kenny Pickett - ( New Window )
If we are talking about later round guys, Kaleb Eleby of Western Michigan is one who interests me if he declares.
Haven't seen him play. I have read about him.
For me, Jake Haener is the later round project that is interesting. Had a great year with Frez St. Just makes a ton of plays - a lot in the clutch - and he can sling it. I saw him against UCLA and he was out of his mind good.
Jackson is Willis' upside comparison and basically all of the elements that allowed Jackson to be successful then until now are not in place here.
We may never see Willis' upside in our current situation, so all that's left is downside risk.
We should build the lines first.
Bingo. Too many people think Lamar went out there by himself and succeeded. A lot went into his success and I don’t trust anyone currently connected to this organization to build a similar supporting cast for any of the young QBs in the draft, let alone Willis.
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In comment 15472702 Producer said:
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In comment 15472696 Walker Gillette said:
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In comment 15472692 AcidTest said:
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In comment 15472686 Walker Gillette said:
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can't hit the broad side of a barn, right?
No, they don't. This is where we are. People are actually advocating replacing Jones with Trubisky.
I know a few Bears fan from Chicago that are clients and they all think this is insane.
This tells you how much more rational the bears fanbase is than the fans here on BBI.
They think it's insane because they all feel Jones is far better than Trubisky!
And yet... Link - ( New Window )
These are people that watch the games not rely on looking at stats on a Monday.
This is why Gettleman should be fired already and we shouldn't do him the courtesy of waiting on retirement. He drafted Barkley at #2 and Jones at #6 back to back and still has a shitty OL. Our 2 huge draft investments, the biggest in years, were never fully supported or set up to succeed
The reason they won’t hate on him is because they are willing to give him more time for Jax to surround him with better talent. But these Jones haters made up their mind very early in Jones career. Some after one season, some after the second season. They don’t care about his surrounding talent….and none of them want him to succeed because it would make them look stupid.
So yeah….I’m taking notes on the Jones haters to see who they want to be our QB next year so I can keep reminding them how their guy is doing. But I suppose few if any of those guys will want to go on record….they are more critics than fans. You only hear from them when something is going poorly.
Is this Dave Gettle's nephew or are you just a couple cans short of six pack right there. Taking these forumsa a little personal huh?
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is a better QB than Darnold at this point...for sure...however...
when Darnold left the Jets I think teams really used their draft grades as a measure on what to give up for him and I think league execs (generally speaking) were higher on Darnold when he was drafted than Jones.
I think NFL execs made the same kinds of excuses for Darnold as I see here on BBI with Jones except he doesn't have the same high draft marks.
Darnold is better. He has a better arm ; can make a broader range of throw and is still mobile. Cam Newton just like I siad is going to throw a bunch of picks. It is hard to play well on a team that has a bad oline and is talent deficient. I think the Panthers are about what the Giants are with better coaching. Bad teams can make good QBs look bad. That is not to say Jones is a good QB or that we should wait around see what he can do.
Didn't we just see Darnold with a better roster around him lose to Jones? Jones is better than Darnold.
Now whether we'd get as much for Jones - I don't think we would. Darnold was seen as a high first round pick who you could roll the dice on and maybe turn into something. Jones is seen as an overdrafted guy from the beginning.
Darnold will get more because well he’s a better QB.
Take OL and DL in rd1
A. Punting next year. The cap is awful. So bring in a vet (tyrod taylor) for an actual qb competition. In no way should he be the assumed starter. He 100% has not earned that.
B. Draft a qb if someone not named Dave Gettleman finds a guy who is a good value, whether it be round 1 or later. Fine with that guy competing with Jones and whoever plays better gets the job.
If Jones goes on a roll, the WRs come back healthy and Freddy lets him air it out this discussion will end. I liken Jones to Phil Simms, it took Phil a couple of years to come into his own.
Ive never seen so many pulled muscles in my life though
Who is the WRs coach? Are these guys not doing enough stretching before games and during them on the sidelines?
If Jones goes on a roll, the WRs come back healthy and Freddy lets him air it out this discussion will end. I liken Jones to Phil Simms, it took Phil a couple of years to come into his own.
Ive never seen so many pulled muscles in my life though
Who is the WRs coach? Are these guys not doing enough stretching before games and during them on the sidelines?
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There is a lot of buzz around Kenny Pickett. Jersey kid with moxie and toughness comparable to Joe Burrow. I've heard early predictions as the first QB off the board somewhere from 3-6. Again, it's early yet and I haven't had much time to watch so I'll lean on my guys still doing it for a living and suggest if NYG plans to move on from Jones and draft a new QB, then it should be for this kid.
A Free Agent addition wouldn't give you much more than Jones so players like Mariota, Minshew, and Trubisky would most likely just create a QB controversy unless of course, you trade Jones and draft one in an attempt to hedge your bet.
An alternative could be a trade. Watson seems unlikely for NYG unless all charges are dropped against him. Wilson, from what I hear is a fantasy. The realistic trade target would be Jimmy G who wouldn't cost near as much and would give the Giants a vet to start while the young QB develops.
I don't think the Jury is out on Jones quite yet but you're getting closer to the verdict.. a lot will depend on if ownership decides to keep Judge. If they get rid of Judge I don't see any new GM/HC combo hitching their wagon to Jones.
Kenny Pickett is not Joe Burrow. Pickett, for 4 seasons, failed to put up numbers even comparable to what Burrow put up in his first season at LSU after not really having meaningful game reps for YEARS prior to that season. Burrow's tremendous year at LSU was his second year at LSU. Pickett has had a great year this year, but I am skeptical. Did he finally realize something after 2020 season that has now been corrected? If so, that would indicate that 2021 is a better indicator of things to come. On the other hand, is his success this year attributed to the fact that he is basically playing some of the same teams for the 5th time whereas his opponents are 1st time starters? If that is the case, that means his first 4 years posting numbers that likely would get him drafted Late Day 3 if at all is a more accurate measure of his future.
Mike, you wasted your time there. I said, his moxie and toughness are being compared to Burrow.
It's far scarier going with a kid. History has proven this time and time again.
I don't know what to do because we don't know what this off-season will bring, but if Wilson and Rodgers are there to be had, you absolutely have to explore it if you're NYG.
Teams have fixed shit on the backs of a vet FA QB signing. It can be done. If the VET doesn't win here, fine, we should be used to it by now. We have a VET team with a lot of signed deals. Want to get the most out of Galladay or do you want to bitch and moan about his 3-50 stat line every week? Trust me, Wilson or Rodgers gets more out of him.
We need a savior. I don't care if we don't win a super bowl and are up against the cap every year. I want playoff appearances. More wins than losses once in a while? Maybe beat Dallas when shit matters just one time?
Or, draft a kid and try this shit all over again. Watch another HC get fired here UNLESS we step in shit and the kid is 100% ready made to deal with the most chaotic and difficult job in pro sports.
Or, take the easy way out and sign a HOF QB for draft picks.
I just don't think it's possible.
The cap is flexible, some say even invisible...but I don't know if it's THAT flexible.
This team is cash strapped for the next couple seasons and you can't backload deals for Rodgers or Wilson...
Watson is another story.
Take OL and DL in rd1
I was thinking the same the other day, after watching Ridder
play again. I have seen him a lot the last couple of years.
He's not the sexy pick, but he could develop into a good one.
I just don't think the Giants will move on from Jones yet,
as much as some would like that to happen.
And? The trend is good QBs are playing into their 40s.
The only variable I care about is finding a good QB.
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is that Pickett will be 24 years old before the start of the 2022 NFL season
And? The trend is good QBs are playing into their 40s.
The only variable I care about is finding a good QB.
The rules just make it easier to play the position.
Back to the main point- Pickett's age doesn't bother me. We need to find a good+ QB.
Run it with DJ next year and see where we stand at the end of the season with a new GM
I'd still much rather spend the capital to invest in the OL/DL/Front 7 first and build up the trenches. That way, no matter whether it's Jones or a QB to be named later, they have a solid OL in front of them.
Corral to me is head and shoulders better than the other two. He throws a great ball and has a flair for the big play.
Pickett is nice but still lacks the intangibles wanted in a quarterback.
Willis is very raw and why he has the movement in the pocket he is a boom or bust candidate
I'd still much rather spend the capital to invest in the OL/DL/Front 7 first and build up the trenches. That way, no matter whether it's Jones or a QB to be named later, they have a solid OL in front of them.
I hear you on upgrading the OL. I'm all in and have beat that drum endlessly until my hands have bled.
The quagmire, however, is we need - IMV - a better OL and a better QB. I'm fine trying to find the QB solution in either the draft or seeing viable options in the NFL market after the season ends.
My original post was addressing ryan's issue with Pickett's age. And that I don't think we should dwell on that but, instead, decide if he's a good QB for us.
My original post was addressing ryan's issue with Pickett's age. And that I don't think we should dwell on that but, instead, decide if he's a good QB for us.
It's hard to believe people are using Pickett's age against him, as if losing 2-3 years off the back end of his career would be a big deal if he was good enough to play for that long in the first place.
Good God. Daniel Jones is 24 now and he stinks, so maybe we don't need to worry about whether or not a potential replacement will still be here in the year 2037.
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My original post was addressing ryan's issue with Pickett's age. And that I don't think we should dwell on that but, instead, decide if he's a good QB for us.
It's hard to believe people are using Pickett's age against him, as if losing 2-3 years off the back end of his career would be a big deal if he was good enough to play for that long in the first place.
Good God. Daniel Jones is 24 now and he stinks, so maybe we don't need to worry about whether or not a potential replacement will still be here in the year 2037.
I do not think it is the 2-3 years off the back end of his career that worries teams, it is the fact that he is more physically mature than his opponents and why didn't he show any of this the last 4 years? If he was 24 but was relatively new to college QB position because he was playing minor league baseball and putting up these numbers I think that would be more attractive to teams.
Darnold will get more because well he’s a better QB.
Panthers defense is better than NYG's and when the Giants played them, they had no one who scares anyone. His starters were Darius Slayton and Dante Pettis.
Panthers DJ Moore and Robby Anderson are very underrated.
Because legitimate QB competition costs money and I'm a firm believer in the cliche that "if you have 2 QBs you don't have 1". I don't see the point in going 2X plus on our QB cap spend to end up in exactly the same place - a poor starting QB. The Bears did this with Trubisky/Foles and it was a giant waste of cap dollars.
Either cut bait completely and grab a new prospect or ride Jones as your cheap bridge QB. There shouldn't be a middle ground. There are zero savings, only additional cap spend, to having another washout veteran QB compete or replace Jones. Even bad starting QBs aren't cheap, anybody brought in will have incentives baked into that contract that will balloon that value to market floor rate of 10m set by Fitzpatrick and Tyrod this year. Trubisky may be making 2.5m this year but he was signed to be a backup, not compete with Josh Allen.