No QB is going to change the trajectory of this club with the offensive line in the state in which it currently exists.
Reading BBI posts about it is a master class in determining who has been brought up in the "me first", "I deserve X", and "instant gratification" generations.
Prefer for the time being a Cap Friendly Free Agent as we rebuild this roster (Like a Minshew) and look at the draft in 2023 or 2024.
This is not an argument to keep Jones (so don't take it as that). But right now (as of late November 2021), I'm not sure I see a sure-fired #1 QB in this draft.
As much as I don’t believe he is the future and I’ve started a few
Threads on it, I would roll with him next year and build up the line. Let him play it out and decide afterwards. We need to fortify the line before anyone else is brought in.
Don’t like the QB crop. Don’t want to deal anything for Russ, Watson or Rodgers
that we don't trade away all of our first round picks this year / future first rounders for a high profile QB like Russell Wilson. I think that's a disaster waiting to happen and we have way more issues to address than just QB.
If we're getting a new QB I would want one that we could get for a reasonable price or for them to draft someone. I will say I don't know much about the QBs coming out this year to have a preference.
RE: There is nothing to be gained from moving on...
No QB is going to change the trajectory of this club with the offensive line in the state in which it currently exists.
Reading BBI posts about it is a master class in determining who has been brought up in the "me first", "I deserve X", and "instant gratification" generations.
great cranky old man post here.
I admit to not being as knowledgeable yet about this draft class
But, on the surface there is not a guy I want to spend a decent pick on. I have seen/heard a lot of suggestions to trade for one of Wilson, Rodgers, or Watson. I absolutely say no to all 3.
Wilson and Rodgers are only the right move if you have a team a QB away from winning it all. We are so far from that it isn't funny. I would rather use the picks necessary to get those guys instead on guys that will improve the overall team (i.e. OL, OLB).
Watson I just wouldn't touch. I'm not trading anything for a guy who very well may be suspended and who hasn't played all year.
RE: I admit to not being as knowledgeable yet about this draft class
But, on the surface there is not a guy I want to spend a decent pick on. I have seen/heard a lot of suggestions to trade for one of Wilson, Rodgers, or Watson. I absolutely say no to all 3.
Wilson and Rodgers are only the right move if you have a team a QB away from winning it all. We are so far from that it isn't funny. I would rather use the picks necessary to get those guys instead on guys that will improve the overall team (i.e. OL, OLB).
Watson I just wouldn't touch. I'm not trading anything for a guy who very well may be suspended and who hasn't played all year.
Plus, Wilson is getting older and has not looked right since coming back from injury.
RE: RE: There is nothing to be gained from moving on...
No QB is going to change the trajectory of this club with the offensive line in the state in which it currently exists.
Reading BBI posts about it is a master class in determining who has been brought up in the "me first", "I deserve X", and "instant gratification" generations.
great cranky old man post here.
Yeah....I'm cranky....I'm sick of assholes like you.
do a switch for 2022 and that is a VET QB comes in. The problem is, we have high draft picks that we need to help the overall team too.
Now, Seattle is a possibility for Wilson- but no way I give up both 1's. So a trade of Jones, Barkley, a 1 and 3 this year and a 1 and 3 next year would be doable. That leaves us with a 1,2 and 3 still in this years draft and a chance to build up the Ol and Edge.
But, Wilson isn't what he used to be and his biggest downfall was a bad Oline with Seattle which he would be leaving one situation for the same here. He hasn't shown the ability to raise the play of the Oline.
Rodgers could do that but, he will be VERY expensive and thus unlikely we could fit in the cap.
Watson would be an option IF his legal troubles are cleared up and the cost is less than what the texans were seeking this year. No way I give up 4 #1's, none, zero, ziltch.
One option, which isn't GREAT but, could get us by for a bit and could turn out ok- we send Barkley to Houston along with picks from the Dolphins, the Texans send Watson to Miami and Miami sends Tua to us.
We then trade Jones to Carolina for whatever picks we can get.
This way we keep our draft picks, Miami can get by with sending a lesser pick package and we get a young QB that can move, and is still developing.
RE: RE: RE: There is nothing to be gained from moving on...
No QB is going to change the trajectory of this club with the offensive line in the state in which it currently exists.
Reading BBI posts about it is a master class in determining who has been brought up in the "me first", "I deserve X", and "instant gratification" generations.
great cranky old man post here.
Yeah....I'm cranky....I'm sick of assholes like you.
lol. what did i ever do other than having a negative view of jones as the QB of the future?
Prefer for the time being a Cap Friendly Free Agent as we rebuild this roster (Like a Minshew) and look at the draft in 2023 or 2024.
This is not an argument to keep Jones (so don't take it as that). But right now (as of late November 2021), I'm not sure I see a sure-fired #1 QB in this draft.
I agree. Because of that, I'd be more inclined not to move on. I'd rather seriously try to improve the OL and front 7 and see where that gets us next year. I would, however, try to have a better QB as the backup or even to potentially challenge Jones.
I'm on record as saying they should and will stick with Jones for next year. It never makes sense to me to go the veteran QB route. I don't see any franchise type QB prospects for this draft, but I'll admit I haven't watched a ton of college football this year. Would like to continue to build/rebuild the team with Jones for the time being.
This year? Probably nobody. I will say the Pitt QB is intriguing.
I think we’re stuck with Jones for 2022. He’ll be thoroughly mediocre then too which I believe will sink Judge and the next HC can decide where to go in 2023 at the position.
any QBs that fall out of the first round. We can either deal Jones or have him fight it out with the new guy. If we deal Jones, bring in a cheap vet to caddy the new guy.
Getting a 2nd or 3rd round QB wouldn't stop me from considering a first round QB in 2023.
They should be looking at all of their options this offseason but I disagree with the notion that we desperately have to move on from Jones this offseason when he is on a cheap 1 year deal. The math would be much different if we were staring down the barrel of his option number or the franchise tag, then OK maybe you have to loosen your standards a little but they can afford to have some patience in 2022.
I'm on record as saying they should and will stick with Jones for next year. It never makes sense to me to go the veteran QB route. I don't see any franchise type QB prospects for this draft, but I'll admit I haven't watched a ton of college football this year. Would like to continue to build/rebuild the team with Jones for the time being.
Not that the situation is exact, but bringing in Collins did result in a SB appearance. It always felt that he was a placeholder, though. I just don't see a vet out there worth the price it's going to take. When Russel had a great OL, he was great. Lately, he's looked like shit, and now he has a shit OL. I don't know...I just feel that you have to build from the lines out. Bill Parcells did it, TC did it, hell even Fassel did it to an extent. You have to win in the trenches, on both sides of the ball. I just don't see a QB change amounting to anything at all and there are no resources I'd part with to get a placeholder veteran and I don't like the prospects in college right now. Compromise if I must, start Jones next year and don't pick up his option. Worse comes to worst, we are paying him top 5 QB money on the tag in 2023. Would that be so bad?
The car looks great in August but the tranny is shot and that "clicking" sound you hear coming from the cylinders is a bad thing...
Build inside out or perpetuate the troubles.
A bad QB can bring down the whole thing. That's where we are. We have had OL guys who have succeeded elsewhere but bomb here. Bad QB play can make it virtually impossible to fix the line.
First, because we don't know who the GM will be next year and second, because somehow the QB who is 26th in QBR is being positioned as "nothing to be gained from moving on" and anyone who disagrees is an entitled brat.
Assuming Gettleman goes and Judge stays, which is the most likely outcome at this point, sign me up for a combination of a veteran backup and a draft pick used to upgrade the QB position. I don't think Jones has the ability to read opposing defenses or look off coverage and his instincts/vision with the ball in his hands as a runner are worrisome. As for whether Jones gets his 5th year option, obviously he gets a chance to compete for the job next year, but based on what we know now, if I were the incoming GM, I'm looking for a gut renovation. 2021 QBR - ( New Window )
Judge is ok with Jones? I get the feeling that the Garrett Judge issue also extended to Jones and by association with DG as well.
Perhaps Garrett getting the heave ho means Judge has won out over DG and perhaps Jones is next (obviously after the season).
I’ve always felt the praise from judge towards Jones was bullshit. If he survives this year, I think we’ll see his true feelings. I know personally if I had to hitch my wagon to Jones for my job survival beyond 2022, I had better be sure I’m renting..
Jimmy G is only 30 and has 1 year left on his contract. The Niners would save $25M on the cap if they cut him in 2022 with little to no dead money. Niners have to play Lance eventually and the Pats are not likely to want him back.
I don't think Jimmy G is much of an upgrade over Jones, but he is probably familiar with Judge and he would be a good locker room leader for relatively young team. Regardless, the Giants need to create some competition for Jones to get a better sense if he really has what it takes or at least give the team the option to go with a veteran QB rather than piss away another year pondering whether it is time to move on from Jones.
I do believe they need to move on from Jones, but I don't feel they can afford to reach for someone just to move on. They reached for Jones himself, IMO, and then watched Herbert and Mac Jones pass them by the next two drafts while we're stuck in bed with Jones. That's the definition of QB hell.
The Giants are in a rebuild mode.
They have to use all their resourses to create a complete team
The team needs to rebuild the OL, obtain a two way TE, find edge rushers , linebackers, and a punter.
Obtaining a QB for a stop gap makes no sense. The cost of the QB would be more than Jones , and the play without the other improvements could be worse.
It does not appear that there is a great QB available in the draft and if there is he will go before the Giants pick
Houston, Detroit, and Philadelphia may draft QBs.
If a QB separates himself from the field he will go before the Giants pick.
The Giants will not move on from Jones. It makes no logical sense.
do a switch for 2022 and that is a VET QB comes in. The problem is, we have high draft picks that we need to help the overall team too.
Now, Seattle is a possibility for Wilson- but no way I give up both 1's. So a trade of Jones, Barkley, a 1 and 3 this year and a 1 and 3 next year would be doable. That leaves us with a 1,2 and 3 still in this years draft and a chance to build up the Ol and Edge.
But, Wilson isn't what he used to be and his biggest downfall was a bad Oline with Seattle which he would be leaving one situation for the same here. He hasn't shown the ability to raise the play of the Oline.
Rodgers could do that but, he will be VERY expensive and thus unlikely we could fit in the cap.
Watson would be an option IF his legal troubles are cleared up and the cost is less than what the texans were seeking this year. No way I give up 4 #1's, none, zero, ziltch.
One option, which isn't GREAT but, could get us by for a bit and could turn out ok- we send Barkley to Houston along with picks from the Dolphins, the Texans send Watson to Miami and Miami sends Tua to us.
We then trade Jones to Carolina for whatever picks we can get.
This way we keep our draft picks, Miami can get by with sending a lesser pick package and we get a young QB that can move, and is still developing.
There is no way a quality Vet QB like the ones mentioned would consider coming to a team without a quality offensive line, not going to happen. Pipe dream. Keep Danny and all the draft picks and build a freaking line and add pass rushers.. This is what the team needs, we added the weapons on O this year, we need to build the Line and defensive pressure. Anything else IMO is foolish
Jimmy G is only 30 and has 1 year left on his contract. The Niners would save $25M on the cap if they cut him in 2022 with little to no dead money. Niners have to play Lance eventually and the Pats are not likely to want him back.
I don't think Jimmy G is much of an upgrade over Jones, but he is probably familiar with Judge and he would be a good locker room leader for relatively young team. Regardless, the Giants need to create some competition for Jones to get a better sense if he really has what it takes or at least give the team the option to go with a veteran QB rather than piss away another year pondering whether it is time to move on from Jones.
There is no cost savings to this move. In fact it will cost you a lot more to put you right back where you started - a 1yr veteran bridge QB. I don't think Jones is second contract worthy but you're not doing better than 1yr 8m on a veteran starting QB. Tyrod Taylor and Ryan Fitzpatrick will earn 12m and 10m this year respectively. That isn't even factoring in the dead money cost in moving on.
The goal should be to upgrade Jones longterm, not marginally upgrade him for 1 year.
its like Deshawn Watson and Lamar Jackson had a baby
I wouldn’t say all THAT. But if I’m taking a chance on a QB this year it’s ONLY Willis. But I’d want him in a trade back into the late 1st round type scenario.
As I stand now, I’m big on OL with the 1st two picks (Neal and Kenyon Green please.)
I'm on record as saying they should and will stick with Jones for next year. It never makes sense to me to go the veteran QB route. I don't see any franchise type QB prospects for this draft, but I'll admit I haven't watched a ton of college football this year. Would like to continue to build/rebuild the team with Jones for the time being.
Not that the situation is exact, but bringing in Collins did result in a SB appearance. It always felt that he was a placeholder, though. I just don't see a vet out there worth the price it's going to take. When Russel had a great OL, he was great. Lately, he's looked like shit, and now he has a shit OL. I don't know...I just feel that you have to build from the lines out. Bill Parcells did it, TC did it, hell even Fassel did it to an extent. You have to win in the trenches, on both sides of the ball. I just don't see a QB change amounting to anything at all and there are no resources I'd part with to get a placeholder veteran and I don't like the prospects in college right now. Compromise if I must, start Jones next year and don't pick up his option. Worse comes to worst, we are paying him top 5 QB money on the tag in 2023. Would that be so bad?
Thats what i would do.. agree 100%
RE: I admit to not being as knowledgeable yet about this draft class
But, on the surface there is not a guy I want to spend a decent pick on. I have seen/heard a lot of suggestions to trade for one of Wilson, Rodgers, or Watson. I absolutely say no to all 3.
Wilson and Rodgers are only the right move if you have a team a QB away from winning it all. We are so far from that it isn't funny. I would rather use the picks necessary to get those guys instead on guys that will improve the overall team (i.e. OL, OLB).
Watson I just wouldn't touch. I'm not trading anything for a guy who very well may be suspended and who hasn't played all year.
Rodgers and Wilson make us an immediate playoff contender
Possibly SB contender if we fill a few other holes
market plays out first - which QB stays with their teams, which ones become available. That could dictate a lot of decisions making.
In this draft, which I think is underrated at QB, I am currently most interested in this trio: Pickett, Willis and Ridder, who is really starting to grow on me.
Nothing special at QB in next year's draft. Several upgrades
The ideal is the Giants find someone in the draft they love (and they're right about). If they don't, I'd love a repeat of the Bears trade down.
I'd urge patience at the QB position. Wait for someone you really like, maybe try and take on a reclamation project in the interim and hope you get lucky.
Getting the QB position right is very, very hard. The real mistake is wasting additional years hoping a bad player turns good.
he's already better then jones. can see him having a rebirth in a new place.
Not saying Trubitsky is the guy but they should definitely have someone like that in as competition for Jones. Mariota is another one that I think makes sense.
I would do it like the Raiders did with Derek Carr and basically let whomever is available of Ridder or Willis in Round 2 fall to them, but if they have a conviction on a guy I am not against a trade up to late Round 1 to get 5th year option. I agree with Sy and others that guys like Willis you do not want playing at all in 2022 unless it is on gimmick plays.
The only QB in 2022 Draft who looks ready to play Week 1 of the season is Pickett IMHO, but I just don't see more than Tannehill/Cousins upside. Corral could play at some point in 2022, but not Week 1, and where he is being mocked now is way too high for what he is worth IMHO. Corral is a Top 15-20 pick at best, not a Top 5 guy.
do a switch for 2022 and that is a VET QB comes in. The problem is, we have high draft picks that we need to help the overall team too.
Now, Seattle is a possibility for Wilson- but no way I give up both 1's. So a trade of Jones, Barkley, a 1 and 3 this year and a 1 and 3 next year would be doable. That leaves us with a 1,2 and 3 still in this years draft and a chance to build up the Ol and Edge.
But, Wilson isn't what he used to be and his biggest downfall was a bad Oline with Seattle which he would be leaving one situation for the same here. He hasn't shown the ability to raise the play of the Oline.
Rodgers could do that but, he will be VERY expensive and thus unlikely we could fit in the cap.
Watson would be an option IF his legal troubles are cleared up and the cost is less than what the texans were seeking this year. No way I give up 4 #1's, none, zero, ziltch.
One option, which isn't GREAT but, could get us by for a bit and could turn out ok- we send Barkley to Houston along with picks from the Dolphins, the Texans send Watson to Miami and Miami sends Tua to us.
We then trade Jones to Carolina for whatever picks we can get.
This way we keep our draft picks, Miami can get by with sending a lesser pick package and we get a young QB that can move, and is still developing.
There is no way a quality Vet QB like the ones mentioned would consider coming to a team without a quality offensive line, not going to happen. Pipe dream. Keep Danny and all the draft picks and build a freaking line and add pass rushers.. This is what the team needs, we added the weapons on O this year, we need to build the Line and defensive pressure. Anything else IMO is foolish
Ok, first off my solution was the last option.. Secondly, you know nothing about any of those guys and what they WANT so speaking in absolutes is foolish. Wilson wants to build his brand and has been linked to the NY area a few times. I have zero idea on what he ultimately thinks and neither do you.
But, again, my option was the three team trade with Houston and Miami..
Maybe Kenny Pickett in a trade down into the mid 20's
I really don't like this QB class. I don't see a sure fire franchise QB in this group.
Willis is a project QB that is very raw that would have to sit for a year under the guidance and coaching of a QB guru.
Ridder actually intrigues me in the second round.
Having said all that,I think Jones remains next year as our QB and our first 2 picks will be BPA which might be OL and Edge players.
The 2023 QB class is shaping up to be much stronger than the 2022 class with Young,Stroud and Hartman.
Who the Big anti-Jones guys are promoting and I will keep a record of this and follow that person next year.
Bw
Terps
Debaser
Other big hate Jones guys…..let us know who is so great that you are coveting?
and that would prove absolutely nothing. Jones would still be an awful QB and not worth a half a decade of patience.
No, it would prove something….it would prove all you loud mouths don’t know anything except to bitch moan and complain.
For instance, are these Jones Haters prepared to hate on Trevor Lawrence? Why not? Look at his numbers….
The reason they won’t hate on him is because they are willing to give him more time for Jax to surround him with better talent. But these Jones haters made up their mind very early in Jones career. Some after one season, some after the second season. They don’t care about his surrounding talent….and none of them want him to succeed because it would make them look stupid.
So yeah….I’m taking notes on the Jones haters to see who they want to be our QB next year so I can keep reminding them how their guy is doing. But I suppose few if any of those guys will want to go on record….they are more critics than fans. You only hear from them when something is going poorly.
So Producer, who do you want to qb our boys next year?
2. I would like the Giants to use one of their two first round picks on Matt Corral of Ole Miss.
3. Alternatively I like Malik Cunningham out of Louisville. He may be available on day 2. See linked article below.
4. I think Russell Wilson has several years of good football left in him and I would be happy to trade for him - I just don't know how the Giants swing it with their cap situation.
5. I don't expect anything past 5 years for any draft pick. Link - ( New Window )
I do not watch College Football so I have no idea about anyone in CFB
but I am terrified of forcing a 1st round QB pick, especially if it requires trading both the present 2022 #1s. I think the OL needs to be fixed at all costs. A 1st round OL, 2nd round G and an average to above vet FA OL should be a marked improvement on the OL. I would like to see them use the other 1st round pick on a DL/LB. Bringing in a rookie with this line is going to be a disaster all over again and a stopgap vet like, Trubisky, Mariotta, Minshew isn't going to play any better than Jones. A team strong along both lines with an average QB has a far better chance to win than does one with this OL and any QB short of maybe Rodgers
I would do it like the Raiders did with Derek Carr and basically let whomever is available of Ridder or Willis in Round 2 fall to them, but if they have a conviction on a guy I am not against a trade up to late Round 1 to get 5th year option. I agree with Sy and others that guys like Willis you do not want playing at all in 2022 unless it is on gimmick plays.
The only QB in 2022 Draft who looks ready to play Week 1 of the season is Pickett IMHO, but I just don't see more than Tannehill/Cousins upside. Corral could play at some point in 2022, but not Week 1, and where he is being mocked now is way too high for what he is worth IMHO. Corral is a Top 15-20 pick at best, not a Top 5 guy.
Not sure who is available on FA market.
I said above that Ridder is growing on me. His size, athleticism, and arm are all plus territory. And he's grown every year as the starter.
There is fat to trim form his game, but I think there is a high ceiling for dvelopment.
I'd resign Jones to a moderate contract... he still has a lot to prove but keeping someone who has been in the offense is easier than bringing in a vet who has to start from scratch.
I haven't watched enough film to make a judgement on the QBs coming out this year but I'd much rather build both sides of the line long before taking a QB.
I'd only take OL/DL for most of this years draft picks. Maybe throw in a RB or WR at the end if they're compelling enough. Rachaad White caught my eye the other day.
As painful as it would be to go into another year with Jones/Glennon we are too far away from a playoff push for it to really matter next year.
If we can build up the lines this offseason maybe make a push for a QB in 2023 depending how Jones does.
Prefer for the time being a Cap Friendly Free Agent as we rebuild this roster (Like a Minshew) and look at the draft in 2023 or 2024.
The Giants should have been all in on that Minshew trade, but they probably didn't want to hurt the QB's feelings. I wouldn't be surprised if he's starting for Philly at some point.
are all question marks. Pickett is probably the safest. Coral and Willis are not going to come in and play lights out in year 1. They are very high ceiling guys though and for a team looking to take a guy a year or too before they need him would be a good pick.
In my opinion even if you draft a top QB Jones is most likely the starter next year.
And niether of these guys is Deshaun watson or Lamar Jackson. They were both big time college QBs that finished in the top 3 of the heisman race twice with Lamar winning one. And Watson was a champion coming out.
I'm on record as saying they should and will stick with Jones for next year. It never makes sense to me to go the veteran QB route. I don't see any franchise type QB prospects for this draft, but I'll admit I haven't watched a ton of college football this year. Would like to continue to build/rebuild the team with Jones for the time being.
I have watched a lot of college this year and I’m sticking with DJ too.
FWIW: The Last Two Times Giants Traded Big for Vet QBs
Fran Tarkenton (67-71) Cost, two #1s, two #2s. Results: 1967, 7-7; 1968, 7-7, 1969, 6-8, 1970-9-5. 1971, 4-10. Tarkenton checked out on the Giants in his last year, was a pain-in-the-ass diva and forced a trade back to the Vikings.
Craig Morton (1974-76), Cost, a #1 and a #2. (note Cowboys used the #1 to draft Randy White). Results, 1974, 2-12, 1975, 5-9, 1976, 3-11(Morton benched mid-year), total, 29TDs, 49 INTs.
Given the state of the Giants O-line, and the likely cost in draft capital, how much better to do you think Russell Wilson would do?
The Tarkenton and Morton trades set the Giants back a decade. "Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it."
then they say the picks have to be used on the lines.
Isn't that forcing picks?
So Terps, who do you want to qb the Giants next year? I haven’t seen your answer yet. Is this question above your pay grade? I know this question is asking you for your input, not your criticism, which is not what you usually do.
then they say the picks have to be used on the lines.
Isn't that forcing picks?
No, forcing a pick is taking a QB high just to do so, when said QB may not be the value of the pick- ie, overdrafted. Where we are picking the Oline choices are 1st rd oline picks, it is just a matter of OL vs another position.
I agree on Corral being the only QB I would want in Rd 1 BUT, nowhere near the top of the draft though.. Their are Edge and OL guys all better picks (based on their talent and projection) that would be far better for us.
I want the Giants to move on from Jones after 2022
They can't cut him without it costing them 8M cap dollars. Hopefully they pass on his option and 2022 is his last chance with the Giants. If he all of sudden turns into a very good QB they can franchise him or extend him. If he doesn't he can leave as a free agent.
I want a 2022 QB competition in training camp with a journeymen free agent like Tyrod Taylor or a last starting chance guy like Trubisky or Rosen. I do not want the Giants using a 1st round or 2nd round draft pick on a QB. I want those picks to be OL or DL/Edge. I don't like any of the QBs in the draft but my choice would be Pickett from Pitt but not in the first two rounds, only if he drops to round 3.
No QB is going to change the trajectory of this club with the offensive line in the state in which it currently exists.
Reading BBI posts about it is a master class in determining who has been brought up in the "me first", "I deserve X", and "instant gratification" generations.
You are the fan John Mara dreams about. Low expectations and always willing to buy any excuse for failure. Having a top-10 pick look competent in year 3 of his career is not "instant gratification."
But thanks anyway for the misguided condescension.
There are any number of guys that will make less than $8M that can throw 15-20 TDs a season and lead the offense to 17-20 PPG.
If that's the level of QB play you want to maintain then trade Jones and sign a FA for $3M or $4M. You save cap space, add a draft pick, and lose nothing in performance.
2022, a veteran stop gap. From the games I've watched, I don't see any QB worth a top 15 pick. I might trade back into the bottom of the first round for one of them to get the fifth year option, but would prefer to build the rest of the team and try and get a QB in 2023.
RE: RE: People say they're afraid to force a pick,
then they say the picks have to be used on the lines.
Isn't that forcing picks?
So Terps, who do you want to qb the Giants next year? I haven’t seen your answer yet. Is this question above your pay grade? I know this question is asking you for your input, not your criticism, which is not what you usually do.
Is this serious? Didn't I just post this info above?
I'm on record as saying they should and will stick with Jones for next year. It never makes sense to me to go the veteran QB route. I don't see any franchise type QB prospects for this draft, but I'll admit I haven't watched a ton of college football this year. Would like to continue to build/rebuild the team with Jones for the time being.
Not that the situation is exact, but bringing in Collins did result in a SB appearance. It always felt that he was a placeholder, though. I just don't see a vet out there worth the price it's going to take. When Russel had a great OL, he was great. Lately, he's looked like shit, and now he has a shit OL. I don't know...I just feel that you have to build from the lines out. Bill Parcells did it, TC did it, hell even Fassel did it to an extent. You have to win in the trenches, on both sides of the ball. I just don't see a QB change amounting to anything at all and there are no resources I'd part with to get a placeholder veteran and I don't like the prospects in college right now. Compromise if I must, start Jones next year and don't pick up his option. Worse comes to worst, we are paying him top 5 QB money on the tag in 2023. Would that be so bad?
for competition, but don’t see them moving on from Jones next year. If the draft is what we hear in terms of QBs, then we should not push it and wait till following year. Improve the Oline first and foremost and then see where it takes the offense next year.
There are any number of guys that will make less than $8M that can throw 15-20 TDs a season and lead the offense to 17-20 PPG.
If that's the level of QB play you want to maintain then trade Jones and sign a FA for $3M or $4M. You save cap space, add a draft pick, and lose nothing in performance.
Why sign a vet then? Just keep Jones for another year....same outcome for a fraction of cost
Because I do not dispute quarterback is really important, I just think they have bigger holes else where. I think Jones is average, so i'd keep him another year while I build the rest of the roster.
As JonC accurately states, the Giants need more elite talent. Not in favor of trading the first round picks, maybe the Bears pick in a trade down.
If you love Corral, take him.
They should have brought in Minshew or a Trubisky this year for competition. Also have 2 quarterbacks with similar tools so the offense doesn't need to change its identity. I'd look to bring a veteran and another younger, cheap quarterback. Probably a mid round pick. Open competition.
then they say the picks have to be used on the lines.
Isn't that forcing picks?
There is a far more likely chance that there are Linemen available where the Giants will be picking than a QB and history has taught us that teams will greatly overdraft QBs. IF there a re no lineman that make sense where the Giants pick than they can pick a an LB or CB, what is the chance that all 4 of those positions don't have any value guys around the 10th pick in the draft?
The REAL problem here is a lack of overall talent on the GIANTS roster. Changing the QB won't solve that, only good drafting will.
Jones has already shown enough to say that he could be a winning QB, so throwing him away now makes absolutely zero sense.
Fix the G..D... OL to give him a real running game and some time to throw. And get a real pass rush and some ILBs who can stop the run to get opponents off the field.
No QB coming out looks like anything more than the latest flash in the pan who won't work out. NFL history is littered with the next great collegiate QB who didn't make it, often because they ended up on teams that lacked talent, the very definition of the GIANTS for the past decade.
Acquiring a vet QB hasn't worked for this team since they got Charlie Conerly back in the middle of the last century. (Note that none of Y.A. Tittle, Fran Tarkington, or Kerry Collins won a championship for the G-men, and they are by far the most successful vet QB acquisitions the GIANTS made since acquiring Chuckin' Charlie who led them to the NFL Championship in 1956.)
Terps do you believe the Giants OL is having any effect on Jones's
The ideal is the Giants find someone in the draft they love (and they're right about). If they don't, I'd love a repeat of the Bears trade down.
I'd urge patience at the QB position. Wait for someone you really like, maybe try and take on a reclamation project in the interim and hope you get lucky.
Getting the QB position right is very, very hard. The real mistake is wasting additional years hoping a bad player turns good.
This is where I am. If you see a guy you like in the draft you get him. You don't force a pick.
If you don't draft a guy, bring in a vet and make Jones compete for the job. There is no reason you have to get rid of him, but he has to earn a roster spot.
There are enough holes to fill on this team that you need to get playmakers in the draft, whatever position they play.
It seems after endless "we need to get rid of Jones" threads since the summer, the prevailing opinion is to keep him one more year?
I think since you started this thread that a lot more people are willing to respond then if it was one of the anti Jones crew. I also believe that there is a VERY vocal anti Jones minority on this site that dominates the site and the conversation.
RE: RE: There is nothing to be gained from moving on...
No QB is going to change the trajectory of this club with the offensive line in the state in which it currently exists.
Reading BBI posts about it is a master class in determining who has been brought up in the "me first", "I deserve X", and "instant gratification" generations.
.
Seriously which generation would that be all of them? Has human nature changed all that much?
Not to mention one thing really has nothing to do with the other. This team needs a QB and then an oline. It has Thomas so that is definitively a start. If you really believe no QB would do with this line then start Glennon. After watching Jones last game i know Glennon can make throws Jones cannot.
It seems after endless "we need to get rid of Jones" threads since the summer, the prevailing opinion is to keep him one more year?
I think since you started this thread that a lot more people are willing to respond then if it was one of the anti Jones crew. I also believe that there is a VERY vocal anti Jones minority on this site that dominates the site and the conversation.
Plus it seems like that this year isn't a great draft for QBs so why force one.
There are any number of guys that will make less than $8M that can throw 15-20 TDs a season and lead the offense to 17-20 PPG.
If that's the level of QB play you want to maintain then trade Jones and sign a FA for $3M or $4M. You save cap space, add a draft pick, and lose nothing in performance.
Why sign a vet then? Just keep Jones for another year....same outcome for a fraction of cost
Huh?
Mitch Trubisky signed in Buffalo for 1 year, $2.5M.
Using that contract as an example:
1. Sign Trubisky
2. Trade Jones
Results:
1. Get a draft pick for Jones
2. Save ~$5.8M in cap space
3. Maintain similar (I'd say slightly improved) performance at quarterback
There are any number of guys that will make less than $8M that can throw 15-20 TDs a season and lead the offense to 17-20 PPG.
If that's the level of QB play you want to maintain then trade Jones and sign a FA for $3M or $4M. You save cap space, add a draft pick, and lose nothing in performance.
Why sign a vet then? Just keep Jones for another year....same outcome for a fraction of cost
IMO a vet will help the offense develop better overall, and it takes a huge monkey off of JJs back. Jones being bad for a 4th year absolutely sinks Judge.
Say we draft someone, decline 5th year. Let Jones audition for his next team until we want to start the new guy. If it’s pre-trade deadline try to move him, if not let him walk and hope for a comp pick.
RE: Terps do you believe the Giants OL is having any effect on Jones's
Not much, if at all. I think this is what Jones is. There are nearly 6 years of high level football backing that up. There isn't a good quarterback in there just waiting to be freed.
There are any number of guys that will make less than $8M that can throw 15-20 TDs a season and lead the offense to 17-20 PPG.
If that's the level of QB play you want to maintain then trade Jones and sign a FA for $3M or $4M. You save cap space, add a draft pick, and lose nothing in performance.
Why sign a vet then? Just keep Jones for another year....same outcome for a fraction of cost
Huh?
Mitch Trubisky signed in Buffalo for 1 year, $2.5M.
Using that contract as an example:
1. Sign Trubisky
2. Trade Jones
Results:
1. Get a draft pick for Jones
2. Save ~$5.8M in cap space
3. Maintain similar (I'd say slightly improved) performance at quarterback
There's 3 in dead money in moving on from Jones as well. Any agent worth their salt will negotiate playing time incentives for starting or competing role too. Net costs are negligible, talent difference is negligible and you're doing a lot of maneuvering just to achieve that.
The argument to move on from him as a means of turning the page holds more water imo. Even then, it doesn't make sense when they're likely to runback the coach and most of the front office outside of Gettleman.
Seems like a guy who needs everything around him to be perfect to be successful. Good OL. Running game. Wide receivers. A TE who can hang on to the ball... and that has happened oh so rarely with the Giants.
Rather than a guy who can carry a team on his back with his play escaping pressure, throwing guys open, etc... no matter what's going on.
Based on what we know today I would prefer they Keep jones and add a vet. Based on gameplay we have a good idea that no stud is in this class. Their isn't really a free agent QB for 2022 that's great either but we should be able to bring someone in that compete. Our current backup is terrible.
No QB is going to change the trajectory of this club with the offensive line in the state in which it currently exists.
Reading BBI posts about it is a master class in determining who has been brought up in the "me first", "I deserve X", and "instant gratification" generations.
Let's not go ad hominem. It won't go well for you.
Seems like a guy who needs everything around him to be perfect to be successful. Good OL. Running game. Wide receivers. A TE who can hang on to the ball... and that has happened oh so rarely with the Giants.
Rather than a guy who can carry a team on his back with his play escaping pressure, throwing guys open, etc... no matter what's going on.
Just my opinion
and even that's not clear. That's just the best case scenario.
RE: RE: RE: Sticking with Jones doesn't make sense
There are any number of guys that will make less than $8M that can throw 15-20 TDs a season and lead the offense to 17-20 PPG.
If that's the level of QB play you want to maintain then trade Jones and sign a FA for $3M or $4M. You save cap space, add a draft pick, and lose nothing in performance.
Why sign a vet then? Just keep Jones for another year....same outcome for a fraction of cost
Huh?
Mitch Trubisky signed in Buffalo for 1 year, $2.5M.
Using that contract as an example:
1. Sign Trubisky
2. Trade Jones
Results:
1. Get a draft pick for Jones
2. Save ~$5.8M in cap space
3. Maintain similar (I'd say slightly improved) performance at quarterback
Yes the Trubisky contract should be the Jones baseline.
Who the Big anti-Jones guys are promoting and I will keep a record of this and follow that person next year.
Bw
Terps
Debaser
Other big hate Jones guys…..let us know who is so great that you are coveting?
and that would prove absolutely nothing. Jones would still be an awful QB and not worth a half a decade of patience.
No, it would prove something….it would prove all you loud mouths don’t know anything except to bitch moan and complain.
For instance, are these Jones Haters prepared to hate on Trevor Lawrence? Why not? Look at his numbers….
The reason they won’t hate on him is because they are willing to give him more time for Jax to surround him with better talent. But these Jones haters made up their mind very early in Jones career. Some after one season, some after the second season. They don’t care about his surrounding talent….and none of them want him to succeed because it would make them look stupid.
So yeah….I’m taking notes on the Jones haters to see who they want to be our QB next year so I can keep reminding them how their guy is doing. But I suppose few if any of those guys will want to go on record….they are more critics than fans. You only hear from them when something is going poorly.
So Producer, who do you want to qb our boys next year?
Like what ? I am not a GM. But let's face it around here it is like the emperor is not wearing any clothes. Jones was a WTF pick. 3 years later not much has changed except the excuses ... weapons, Garrett, not it is oline.
Count me among those who don’t think its necessary….
to move on from him now. This roster is such a mess that a QB change, even away from a JAG like DJ, isn’t going to turn this mess into a respectable team.
Want to hear a hot take? This team has no offensive line, no pass rushers, and linebackers who can’t cover. Same hot take as the ones for the
last 7 or so years. And the same crap that never gets fixed, in the same areas that you need to be competitive in the league.
Fix the more pressing roster needs first, then figure out if we spend another first round pick on a QB. And that means another two years at least of bad football until we can turn over around 80% of the roster.
No QB in this up coming draft that does it for me me.. I wouldn’t want to spend a high pick on a QB this year..as far as current QB’s in the league the only one that I would want is Watson and I don’t want him because of all the legal issues.. Wilson is just older and would require to many picks at his age to make it worth it to me..
I am all about not exercising the 5th year option on Jones and re-exploring this next year
RE: RE: RE: RE: Sticking with Jones doesn't make sense
There are any number of guys that will make less than $8M that can throw 15-20 TDs a season and lead the offense to 17-20 PPG.
If that's the level of QB play you want to maintain then trade Jones and sign a FA for $3M or $4M. You save cap space, add a draft pick, and lose nothing in performance.
Why sign a vet then? Just keep Jones for another year....same outcome for a fraction of cost
Huh?
Mitch Trubisky signed in Buffalo for 1 year, $2.5M.
Using that contract as an example:
1. Sign Trubisky
2. Trade Jones
Results:
1. Get a draft pick for Jones
2. Save ~$5.8M in cap space
3. Maintain similar (I'd say slightly improved) performance at quarterback
I don't hate this.
I think the evidence shows that Mitch and Jones are like the same guy through the number of games Jones has played. Actually, I think Mitch is a hair better statistically. Obviously, neither are what you want, but if Trubisky is a fraction of what DJ will be in 2022, it makes sense for the NYG especially given how badly Dave and Abrams fucked them cap-wise for 2022.
RE: Count me among those who don’t think its necessary….
to move on from him now. This roster is such a mess that a QB change, even away from a JAG like DJ, isn’t going to turn this mess into a respectable team.
Want to hear a hot take? This team has no offensive line, no pass rushers, and linebackers who can’t cover. Same hot take as the ones for the
last 7 or so years. And the same crap that never gets fixed, in the same areas that you need to be competitive in the league.
Fix the more pressing roster needs first, then figure out if we spend another first round pick on a QB. And that means another two years at least of bad football until we can turn over around 80% of the roster.
I understand your point of view and I think it is a reasonable opinion, however, how do we know that replacing Jones with even a middle of the road starter won't dramatically improve this team?
There is a non-zero probability that Jones is the biggest problem we have and is what is holding this team back. We need to at least bring in competition to see if a middling QB can do much better.
if the Giants hire a GM from outside the organization, I'd be surprised if Jones doesn't return in 2022. He's cheap, the 2022 QB isn't great, and we probably wouldn't get much for him in a trade.
Even if the new GM wants to move on from Jones, he may not be able to do so by the start of next season. 2023 of course is entirely different, especially since I don't think the Giants will pick up Jones's 5th year option.
And you realize he's been a better pro quarterback than Jones, right?
No one's saying Trubisky is good. The point is if you want to maintain Jones-level quarterbacking in 2022 you can do it for cheaper than Jones AND get something in return for Jones in trade.
is that saying we shouldn't necessarily move on from Jones this off season is not the same as an endorsement of Jones. It just seems to be a very weak draft for QBs, so many don't want to spend a valuable pick (first 2 rounds) on a QB. Cap wise and the way the rest of the team is structured right now, it might make sense to let him play out his rookie deal and see where we are at then. Plus, if they spend 2 or 3 picks in the first couple of rounds on a deep OL class, maybe we can better evaluate Jones next year.
I would, however, be very open to a reasonable FA to either challenge Jones or act as a stop gap.
I'm not saying dead money in dealing him prior to the last year of his contract. I could be wrong but I'm not seeing it on Spotrac.
Actually I may have been mistaken as it looks like almost all his money is guaranteed outside of 965k in base salary. I guess there are ways of getting around that if you find a suitor that will restructure his deal and absorb those costs prior to roster bonus hitting but seems like a lot of variables and maneuvering to do in order to end up in the exact same place or even have a net negative financially. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-york-giants/cap/2022/ - ( New Window )
is that saying we shouldn't necessarily move on from Jones this off season is not the same as an endorsement of Jones. It just seems to be a very weak draft for QBs, so many don't want to spend a valuable pick (first 2 rounds) on a QB. Cap wise and the way the rest of the team is structured right now, it might make sense to let him play out his rookie deal and see where we are at then. Plus, if they spend 2 or 3 picks in the first couple of rounds on a deep OL class, maybe we can better evaluate Jones next year.
I would, however, be very open to a reasonable FA to either challenge Jones or act as a stop gap.
1) Removing the risk that Mara signs Jones long-term is the single most important thing for any long-term success of the franchise. Jones on an extension is a catastrophe. And Mara has a type.
2) I just cant take the mechanical robot QB-ing anymore. 3 years of panic when the 1st read isn't open. No imagination, no improvisation. Watching him go through his pre-programmed decision tree at a glacial rate. Inability to do anything at the end of games. It's just the worst kind of bad QB-ing.
We should definitely draft a QB in the 1st 2 rounds. This idea that people can predict who the good QBs are is complete nonsense. Look at the recent drafts. Look at where the top 12 QBs in the league were drafted. There's a ton of luck and randomness. Fold this shitty hand. Get a new hand. Hope it works. If it sucks, fold it and get a new one.
At least GT is on record wanting Corral in the draft
I think from Debaser comments his QB is Glennon already on the team.
Not sure about Producer.BW seems to like Pickett if we draft a QB in this upcoming draft.
1) Removing the risk that Mara signs Jones long-term is the single most important thing for any long-term success of the franchise. Jones on an extension is a catastrophe. And Mara has a type.
2) I just cant take the mechanical robot QB-ing anymore. 3 years of panic when the 1st read isn't open. No imagination, no improvisation. Watching him go through his pre-programmed decision tree at a glacial rate. Inability to do anything at the end of games. It's just the worst kind of bad QB-ing.
We should definitely draft a QB in the 1st 2 rounds. This idea that people can predict who the good QBs are is complete nonsense. Look at the recent drafts. Look at where the top 12 QBs in the league were drafted. There's a ton of luck and randomness. Fold this shitty hand. Get a new hand. Hope it works. If it sucks, fold it and get a new one.
"Fold this shitty hand" is such a great way to describe my feelings.
1) Removing the risk that Mara signs Jones long-term is the single most important thing for any long-term success of the franchise. Jones on an extension is a catastrophe. And Mara has a type.
2) I just cant take the mechanical robot QB-ing anymore. 3 years of panic when the 1st read isn't open. No imagination, no improvisation. Watching him go through his pre-programmed decision tree at a glacial rate. Inability to do anything at the end of games. It's just the worst kind of bad QB-ing.
We should definitely draft a QB in the 1st 2 rounds. This idea that people can predict who the good QBs are is complete nonsense. Look at the recent drafts. Look at where the top 12 QBs in the league were drafted. There's a ton of luck and randomness. Fold this shitty hand. Get a new hand. Hope it works. If it sucks, fold it and get a new one.
The rookie contract structure and rule changes to favor the offense have simultaneously lowered the cost of being wrong and allowed teams to learn what they have much quicker than they did 15 years ago. Teams not adjusting to the new reality are going to be sunk for a long time.
Its an interesting question given the circumstances. I think you can hate him as a player, believe in your heart of hearts that hes not the answer long term and still think its most wise to keep him in place for 2022. I think thats where Im at. And would be more than happy for him to prove me dead wrong. Funny hand we have been dealt.
Jones in 2022, who do you think will be available who will be dramatically better than Jones if the o-line doesn’t improve? Every low-dollar free agent available will be “over the hill” or “never was” players.
Bridgewater, Daulton, Tyrod Taylor? All would be 1 and done players and you would have to hope for a bad enough season to get a high draft pick in 2023. Maybe you want Big Ben! No way he would come to the Giants. He would retire first. He may do that anyway.
I would rather let Jones start in 2022, and start fresh or stick with him for 2023. I think sone of you anti-Jones fans hope he fails.
for competition, but don’t see them moving on from Jones next year. If the draft is what we hear in terms of QBs, then we should not push it and wait till following year. Improve the Oline first and foremost and then see where it takes the offense next year.
Its an interesting question given the circumstances. I think you can hate him as a player, believe in your heart of hearts that hes not the answer long term and still think its most wise to keep him in place for 2022. I think thats where Im at. And would be more than happy for him to prove me dead wrong. Funny hand we have been dealt.
100%. This is not a binary decision of either a) Jones is the future or; b) he is off the team next year.
This year was to evaluate whether Jones was the long term answer at QB. It is pretty clear to most that he isn't. Plenty of teams in the NFL go into the season knowing the guy under center isn't their long term answer, but a stop gap. That is what the Giants would be doing next year with Jones on the team.
RE: RE: RE: You guys realize Trubisky is awful and
No, they don't. This is where we are. People are actually advocating replacing Jones with Trubisky.
This is where some posters start to wonder if anyone on BBI pays attention to any team other than the Giants.
Trubisky's numbers (including accuracy) far exceed DJ's. And it's not like Chicago's OL or skill position players were (or are) particularly great. Link - ( New Window )
I don’t see that at all.
Trubisky was drafted in 2017. Jones in 2019. But as the backup to Josh Allen, Trubisky has only thrown seven passes this year, so he’s really only had one more season than Jones.
Completion percentages: Jones 62.8%. Trubisky 64.1%.
Yards: Jones 8,398. Trubisky 10,637 (with an extra season).
Rate: Jones 84.3. Trubisky 86.9.
Sacks: Jones 105. Trubisky 111. This means that despite playing one less season than Trubisky, Jones has taken nearly as many sacks.
Rushing: Jones 1,000. Trubisky 1,084. Jones has nearly as many rushing yards as Trubisky despite playing one less season.
Not much of a difference IMO, and some of those statistics clearly favor Jones.
Don't we have enough data/eye tests to conclude he does nothing special and his ceiling is game manager at best?
Answer the friggin question bw…..WHO DO YOU WANT TO BE THE NEXT GIANTS QB?
I know, I know…..you don’t want to go on record looking stupid when your guy fails….you would rather sit back and throw stones at guys when you perceive they are failing?
Hey bw….are you throwing rocks at Trevor Lawrence yet? After 10 games, he looks to be a dud. Not very impressive numbers after 10 games…only 9 TDs, 10 interceptions…only 2 wins…..
So, are you going to tell us who NY should replace Jones with or is that also above your pay grade? Did all you Anti Jones haters go to the same high school?
Don't we have enough data/eye tests to conclude he does nothing special and his ceiling is game manager at best?
I wouldn't necessarily advocate for keeping him as much as not seeing a better option right now.
You clearly are 100% ready to cut ties, which is fine. I can understand that and even get behind it. But, who do you propose as the QB next year?
Bw, like Terps, like Producer, like Debaser won’t answer the question….they realize to answer would put them in a corner….plus, they feel their only job here is to throw rocks at players. Somehow they feel bigger or smarter or louder….
Of the Giants giving Jones a big second contract with a slightest hint of improvement does move the needle for me in terms of ripping the bandaid off right away.
However in a vacuum, the financials of a one year deal for him as a vet bridge option are fine as long as he's not blocking a young player. Ideally you have the opportunity to do what the Jets did with Darnold last draft but if that's not on the table, I do think that bridge year provides you the opportunity to punt until next year. Just don't Bortles it.
RE: At least GT is on record wanting Corral in the draft
I think from Debaser comments his QB is Glennon already on the team.
Not sure about Producer.BW seems to like Pickett if we draft a QB in this upcoming draft.
Producer and Debaser are the same person. He mistakenly (I assume) answered a post intended for Producer as Debaser on this very thread.
I will say the two guys I wouldn't hate for a year or two
at qb. second and third round or cheaper retreads to compete with jones. stop with the high first round pick or bust idea. and they should not let fear dictate not using a first. go ahead and use a first again if the pick
warrants it. keep trying till you get it right.
Don't we have enough data/eye tests to conclude he does nothing special and his ceiling is game manager at best?
I wouldn't necessarily advocate for keeping him as much as not seeing a better option right now.
You clearly are 100% ready to cut ties, which is fine. I can understand that and even get behind it. But, who do you propose as the QB next year?
Bw, like Terps, like Producer, like Debaser won’t answer the question….they realize to answer would put them in a corner….plus, they feel their only job here is to throw rocks at players. Somehow they feel bigger or smarter or louder….
The premium picks need to be used on the trenches. The value will be there. It’s time to stop fucking around with the OL/DL.
If Jones sucks next year you move on, with the next guy stepping into a good situation. If he’s good then you keep him or trade him. If he wants too much money you trade him or release him.
2022 isn’t the year to force a QB pick when they have a golden opportunity to fix the OL and DL in one draft.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: You guys realize Trubisky is awful and
Disaster is awarding Jones a long term contract. It sounds improbable but have you seen the decisionmaking by the Giants?
So I want to trade Jones in the offseason. I think he can net a valuable pick in a loaded draft.
Then you look at the QB situations on teams like Philly and the 49ers and see if you can pluck out a reasonable starter. Btw, very much disagree with the poster above who says Garoppolo isn’t an upgrade over Jones. JG is not a pro bowler but is a competent NFL QB and is much better. I expect everyone saw that news report that the 9ers are planning to trade Garoppolo in 2022.
They're actually fairly comparable players. Even if you give the edge to Jones, it seems like the attitude from fans and around the league towards him is vastly different than it was for Trubisky as he was leaving the Bears - Trubisky was seen universally as being a huge bust.
Why not keep DJ and his $8 mil on the books for next year
sign Mitch T. - the guy currently has a 1 year 2.5 million dollar deal. Maybe two years for 5 million and only guarantee the money for next year.
you draft a young guy (or wait until next year)...and let them all compete for the starting job. OR if Mitch T. or DJ win the job and play well you extend one or the other.
Prefer for the time being a Cap Friendly Free Agent as we rebuild this roster (Like a Minshew) and look at the draft in 2023 or 2024.
So you want to move on from jones for Gardner minshew??
This is why I hate cap talk.
If we somehow were able to flip DJ and get GM for half the price in a year that we're facing a cap crunch and are likely to part ways with DJ anyway, why would that be a bad idea, if it allows us to sign some help or extend some young talent?
Prefer for the time being a Cap Friendly Free Agent as we rebuild this roster (Like a Minshew) and look at the draft in 2023 or 2024.
So you want to move on from jones for Gardner minshew??
This is why I hate cap talk.
Why is this so crazy? Do I view Minshew as a long term solution? Probably not. But, I think his play 2 years in Jax was enough to think he could fill a spot or challenge Jones. I don't get the hate for him.
Like I said, he may not be your franchise, but he also hasn't sucked.
RE: RE: At least GT is on record wanting Corral in the draft
I think from Debaser comments his QB is Glennon already on the team.
Not sure about Producer.BW seems to like Pickett if we draft a QB in this upcoming draft.
Producer and Debaser are the same person. He mistakenly (I assume) answered a post intended for Producer as Debaser on this very thread.
I didn't see that post earlier. Are you higher on Pcikett or Ridder at this point?
Are there any FAs that interest you as a possibility?
Just FYI - my tone was directed at 5Bowls, not you. He clearly has a problem reading.
I like what I have seen with Pickett this year. The light finally went on and he's had a season worthy of Heisman consideration. Pitt is two very close losses from being undefeated. I like his arm, accuracy and his subtle mobility. There are legit question marks - like why did it take so long for him to finally get it - but I would roll those dice.
I have been back and forth on Ridder. I really like his three dimensions physically - size, athleticism, and arm strength. I see a Marriota type but with a much better arm and savy.
And being the soul of that offense, he's the reason why Cincinnati is now a national power. So the growth has been on the upward slope over the course of his career. While he can be erratic, I think it's worth the stretch with those physical attributes. His game/style is the prototype in today's NFL.
Willis has it all. He's just in a big slump. Which is going to drag on his draft standing - I believe. So the question marks have creeped back in.
Corral is a real gamer with a terrific arm, grit, and toughness. I said it before Sy did, but his body type is a concern. He's built like Jake Plummer - very narrow. And that could be a problem...
RE: RE: RE: At least GT is on record wanting Corral in the draft
I think from Debaser comments his QB is Glennon already on the team.
Not sure about Producer.BW seems to like Pickett if we draft a QB in this upcoming draft.
Producer and Debaser are the same person. He mistakenly (I assume) answered a post intended for Producer as Debaser on this very thread.
That totally makes sense! I have often wondered
This is true.
But I'm surprised you couldn't pick up on it since you have two dupe handles yourself (broadbandz and chiro56).
would bring in Minshew and then draft Matt Corral if he drops in the draft to the late first round. Then you have a real QB competition and keep all three and build special packages for the players using their strengths.
I didn't see that post earlier. Are you higher on Pcikett or Ridder at this point?
Are there any FAs that interest you as a possibility?
Just FYI - my tone was directed at 5Bowls, not you. He clearly has a problem reading.
I like what I have seen with Pickett this year. The light finally went on and he's had a season worthy of Heisman consideration. Pitt is two very close losses from being undefeated. I like his arm, accuracy and his subtle mobility. There are legit question marks - like why did it take so long for him to finally get it - but I would roll those dice.
I have been back and forth on Ridder. I really like his three dimensions physically - size, athleticism, and arm strength. I see a Marriota type but with a much better arm and savy.
And being the soul of that offense, he's the reason why Cincinnati is now a national power. So the growth has been on the upward slope over the course of his career. While he can be erratic, I think it's worth the stretch with those physical attributes. His game/style is the prototype in today's NFL.
Willis has it all. He's just in a big slump. Which is going to drag on his draft standing - I believe. So the question marks have creeped back in.
Corral is a real gamer with a terrific arm, grit, and toughness. I said it before Sy did, but his body type is a concern. He's built like Jake Plummer - very narrow. And that could be a problem...
Thanks. Pickett is the most intriguing to me, but I admit to now knowing enough about Ridder at this point. Willis is the type of guy I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on if he hell to us in the 3rd or 4th round.
I didn't see that post earlier. Are you higher on Pcikett or Ridder at this point?
Are there any FAs that interest you as a possibility?
Just FYI - my tone was directed at 5Bowls, not you. He clearly has a problem reading.
I like what I have seen with Pickett this year. The light finally went on and he's had a season worthy of Heisman consideration. Pitt is two very close losses from being undefeated. I like his arm, accuracy and his subtle mobility. There are legit question marks - like why did it take so long for him to finally get it - but I would roll those dice.
I have been back and forth on Ridder. I really like his three dimensions physically - size, athleticism, and arm strength. I see a Marriota type but with a much better arm and savy.
And being the soul of that offense, he's the reason why Cincinnati is now a national power. So the growth has been on the upward slope over the course of his career. While he can be erratic, I think it's worth the stretch with those physical attributes. His game/style is the prototype in today's NFL.
Willis has it all. He's just in a big slump. Which is going to drag on his draft standing - I believe. So the question marks have creeped back in.
Corral is a real gamer with a terrific arm, grit, and toughness. I said it before Sy did, but his body type is a concern. He's built like Jake Plummer - very narrow. And that could be a problem...
No vet crazy $ and picks for me. We have to rebuild the OL (AGAIN) no matter who we get. Whats the best way to do that? with our draft picks.
1-Go to the draft. Can we get any picks for DJ ? Darnold got a 2, 4 and 6. If the new GM :-) wants to go in a different direction, if we can get picks for jones so we can continue to build the OL and DL in the draft with 5 picks in the top 79, and have to use a first rounder or later first rounder for QB, I like Pickett from Pitt. I have watched him play a few times and a bunch of highlight stuff on him and he can do it all. He is athletic, throws a good ball and has a strong enough arm. Malik is a super unreal athlete who has a gun . Liberty competition is the concern but he has a higher ceiling for sure. The Pundits "no QBs in this draft' is noise. WHEN have they been right? Who has been right? Darnold, Rosen...were supposed to be can't miss studs. Yup.
2-go with a minshew type to compete with DJ for the starting spot while we rebuild. Lower risk and lower upside.
Nobody can excel with this OL so that is job #1 in the first 5 picks including 1 or 2 pass rushers or ILBs.
Lots of moving parts. But the GM may want to start over with his tools and "groceries"
Despite the slump, I still see Willis going no later than the second round. The skill set is too dynamic.
Like I said, I need to see how the market plays out with the current NFL starters. There are SO many potential layers out there. The Watson Sweepstakes should be a no-brainer, but Mara won't touch that. Huge blowback factor.
I'd certainly kick the tires on a Wilson acquisition and dial up the Raiders if they want to part ways with Carr. I really like Carr.
then they say the picks have to be used on the lines.
Isn't that forcing picks?
No and there is no comparison. QBs either work or they don't. With oline there is a wide range of acceptable play. Oline does not have to be franchise/Pro Bowl Level to be a good player.
If a Tannehill type is a mid-range QB (Say 12-18 range NFL QB), you would be looking to move on from him. But an OT that is a midrange OT is a keeper.
Despite the slump, I still see Willis going no later than the second round. The skill set is too dynamic.
Like I said, I need to see how the market plays out with the current NFL starters. There are SO many potential layers out there. The Watson Sweepstakes should be a no-brainer, but Mara won't touch that. Huge blowback factor.
I'd certainly kick the tires on a Wilson acquisition and dial up the Raiders if they want to part ways with Carr. I really like Carr.
I didn't mention Carr because I don't expect him to be available. I would take him.
Wilson is tough because how much of his struggles are the injury, how much are the crap around him, and how much is age?
Watson is clearly the best of this group, but I wouldn't touch that.
but I do wonder what kind of trade value Daniel Jones has?
I know what Rosen and Darnold fetched, but I don't think DJ would get near as much as either of those guys got...but I don't know for sure.
I am curious though.
I'm sticking with the Darnold comp - if the Jets can grab a second for Darnold, that should be within our expectations for Jones. Darnold is one of the few QBs who I actually think Jones is better than...
Who the Big anti-Jones guys are promoting and I will keep a record of this and follow that person next year.
Bw
Terps
Debaser
Other big hate Jones guys…..let us know who is so great that you are coveting?
and that would prove absolutely nothing. Jones would still be an awful QB and not worth a half a decade of patience.
No, it would prove something….it would prove all you loud mouths don’t know anything except to bitch moan and complain.
For instance, are these Jones Haters prepared to hate on Trevor Lawrence? Why not? Look at his numbers….
The reason they won’t hate on him is because they are willing to give him more time for Jax to surround him with better talent. But these Jones haters made up their mind very early in Jones career. Some after one season, some after the second season. They don’t care about his surrounding talent….and none of them want him to succeed because it would make them look stupid.
So yeah….I’m taking notes on the Jones haters to see who they want to be our QB next year so I can keep reminding them how their guy is doing. But I suppose few if any of those guys will want to go on record….they are more critics than fans. You only hear from them when something is going poorly.
So Producer, who do you want to qb our boys next year?
Like what ? I am not a GM. But let's face it around here it is like the emperor is not wearing any clothes. Jones was a WTF pick. 3 years later not much has changed except the excuses ... weapons, Garrett, not it is oline.
lol if you seriously are manning multiple handles to talk giants football you've got some issues.
is a better QB than Darnold at this point...for sure...however...
when Darnold left the Jets I think teams really used their draft grades as a measure on what to give up for him and I think league execs (generally speaking) were higher on Darnold when he was drafted than Jones.
I think NFL execs made the same kinds of excuses for Darnold as I see here on BBI with Jones except he doesn't have the same high draft marks.
now you have a track record on these high QB draft picks that didn't pan out on their 1st team (because they stunk) and none of them really set the world on fire with their second team either....
then they say the picks have to be used on the lines.
Isn't that forcing picks?
Based on who is expected to be available when our picks currently are, linemen (both DL and OL) appear to be BPA available unless you want to talk about even more DB's
is a better QB than Darnold at this point...for sure...however...
when Darnold left the Jets I think teams really used their draft grades as a measure on what to give up for him and I think league execs (generally speaking) were higher on Darnold when he was drafted than Jones.
I think NFL execs made the same kinds of excuses for Darnold as I see here on BBI with Jones except he doesn't have the same high draft marks.
Darnold is better. He has a better arm ; can make a broader range of throw and is still mobile. Cam Newton just like I siad is going to throw a bunch of picks. It is hard to play well on a team that has a bad oline and is talent deficient. I think the Panthers are about what the Giants are with better coaching. Bad teams can make good QBs look bad. That is not to say Jones is a good QB or that we should wait around see what he can do.
is a better QB than Darnold at this point...for sure...however...
when Darnold left the Jets I think teams really used their draft grades as a measure on what to give up for him and I think league execs (generally speaking) were higher on Darnold when he was drafted than Jones.
I think NFL execs made the same kinds of excuses for Darnold as I see here on BBI with Jones except he doesn't have the same high draft marks.
Darnold actually sucks and I never, ever saw it in him. Jones at least teases competent and I think he is competent with a good line. I often wonder how he would do with Dallas, for example - a good line and a couple of really good RBs.
Again if the Giants cut Jones it costs them 8M cap dollars
then they say the picks have to be used on the lines.
Isn't that forcing picks?
So Terps, who do you want to qb the Giants next year? I haven’t seen your answer yet. Is this question above your pay grade? I know this question is asking you for your input, not your criticism, which is not what you usually do.
Is this serious? Didn't I just post this info above?
Okay I see your answer and have copied it for future use. Let’s see how the college qbs you prefer over Jones do next year. Thanks for playing.
RE: RE: RE: RE: At least GT is on record wanting Corral in the draft
In comment 15472873 Gatorade Dunk said:
[quote] In comment 15472866 dancing blue bear said:
Quote:
In comment 15472784 Section331 said:
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In comment 15472734 Rick in Dallas said:
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I think from Debaser comments his QB is Glennon already on the team.
Not sure about Producer.BW seems to like Pickett if we draft a QB in this upcoming draft.
Producer and Debaser are the same person. He mistakenly (I assume) answered a post intended for Producer as Debaser on this very thread.
That totally makes sense! I have often wondered
This is true.
But I'm surprised you couldn't pick up on it since you have two dupe handles yourself (broadbandz and chiro56). [/quote
I admire your ability to be wrong so often, and yet unaffected and undeterred
The 8.3M in guarantees on Jones are a sunk cost, there’s no new money that accelerates if he’s cut.
If the Giants cut Jones after the end of this season there’s no change positive or negative to his cap hit.
The best cap outcome is to trade Jones before his roster bonus is due (presumably the first day of the league year) and the Giants would save about 4M.
It's called reading. It usually works best left to right...
Lol. I guess sometimes if you don’t his “show all” you probably won’t see all the posts. I think I did that here. Okay, I now see your answer….you like Watson and apparently don’t seem to care about his possible transgressions. And you like Carr.
Just curious….How would the Giants pay Watson’s salary and stay within the cap? We are already almost maxed out for 2022.
I also see you named about 4 college kids you like…are you saying we should take one of them in round one if we don’t pick up Watson, Wilson, or Carr?
but I started watching Corral bc of BBI and he looks really good, albeit small.
would like to see us get him if we can, continue to build the O LIne, D Line... and if we need a vet to hold the fort or for veteran back up presence, how about Andy Dalton?
this assumes the team has seen enough of Jones.
My mistake rereading the thread I didn't check the cap implications
of a trade. Clearly that's the best option and makes the return immaterial. Even a trade for a 6th or 7th draft pick makes Jones cap neutral for 2022.
I doubt that the Giants could stomach the snickering if they trade the 6th pick in the draft for a 6th round pick but IMO a smart team and hopefully a new GM would do it.
The ONLY reason I advocated to keep him around was the cap hit. With that gone I'll drive him to the airport and wish him well.
The ONLY reason I advocated to keep him around was the cap hit. With that gone I'll drive him to the airport and wish him well.
Jones has an interesting contract, I sadly went down the rabbit hole a few months ago to confirm he’s got a roster bonus (Spotrac says he does, but I confirmed that independently because they are often wrong).
With the number of picks and the tight cap space in 2022, the best outcome in my view would be trading for a 2023 2nd or 3rd round pick.
I think you can acquire a guy like Mariota for 2M and come out in the black.
is that I need to pay more attention to Matt Corral.
As for the Liberty QB, that seems like a hell of a risk to me. Either way, you are going to get people saying, "I told you I was right about him!"
Corral, if not for the weak QB crop this year, would be seen as a Top 15-20 player at best and that is only because he plays QB. There are things I like about his game. I like his accuracy and his situational awareness. That being said, I am not sure he has the arm strength if you have a Bruce Arians or Jon Gruden scheme of forcing the ball deep downfield. He appears to be more of the ideal Pat Shurmur QB who has tremendous accuracuy in short/intermediate game. Also, he is fairly slightly built and I do not see a body-type that lends itself to much additional muscle. That could be an issue regarding durability at NFL level, especially if a team wants to take advantage of his athleticism, although he has been healthy the last 2 years at Ole Miss. I have also seen questions about his preparation skills earlier in his college career. Perhaps Lane Kiffin changed that, but it requires investigation.
RE: RE: My mistake rereading the thread I didn't check the cap implications
The ONLY reason I advocated to keep him around was the cap hit. With that gone I'll drive him to the airport and wish him well.
Jones has an interesting contract, I sadly went down the rabbit hole a few months ago to confirm he’s got a roster bonus (Spotrac says he does, but I confirmed that independently because they are often wrong).
With the number of picks and the tight cap space in 2022, the best outcome in my view would be trading for a 2023 2nd or 3rd round pick.
I think you can acquire a guy like Mariota for 2M and come out in the black.
Why would any QB expecting to be a starter here sign for $2M? I guess if they trade Jones after FA signing that would be one thing, but is a team going to agree to a deal conditional on us signing another QB when they could just sign that QB themself if he is better than Jones? You risk a team reneging knowing we have to trade Jones.
RE: RE: RE: My mistake rereading the thread I didn't check the cap implications
The ONLY reason I advocated to keep him around was the cap hit. With that gone I'll drive him to the airport and wish him well.
Jones has an interesting contract, I sadly went down the rabbit hole a few months ago to confirm he’s got a roster bonus (Spotrac says he does, but I confirmed that independently because they are often wrong).
With the number of picks and the tight cap space in 2022, the best outcome in my view would be trading for a 2023 2nd or 3rd round pick.
I think you can acquire a guy like Mariota for 2M and come out in the black.
Why would any QB expecting to be a starter here sign for $2M? I guess if they trade Jones after FA signing that would be one thing, but is a team going to agree to a deal conditional on us signing another QB when they could just sign that QB themself if he is better than Jones? You risk a team reneging knowing we have to trade Jones.
Trade before the draft and said place-holder may think that the Giants are drafting a QB (boy, I hope not with one of the 1st 2 picks)
There is a lot of buzz around Kenny Pickett. Jersey kid with moxie and toughness comparable to Joe Burrow. I've heard early predictions as the first QB off the board somewhere from 3-6. Again, it's early yet and I haven't had much time to watch so I'll lean on my guys still doing it for a living and suggest if NYG plans to move on from Jones and draft a new QB, then it should be for this kid.
A Free Agent addition wouldn't give you much more than Jones so players like Mariota, Minshew, and Trubisky would most likely just create a QB controversy unless of course, you trade Jones and draft one in an attempt to hedge your bet.
An alternative could be a trade. Watson seems unlikely for NYG unless all charges are dropped against him. Wilson, from what I hear is a fantasy. The realistic trade target would be Jimmy G who wouldn't cost near as much and would give the Giants a vet to start while the young QB develops.
I don't think the Jury is out on Jones quite yet but you're getting closer to the verdict.. a lot will depend on if ownership decides to keep Judge. If they get rid of Judge I don't see any new GM/HC combo hitching their wagon to Jones.
The 8.3M in guarantees on Jones are a sunk cost, there’s no new money that accelerates if he’s cut.
If the Giants cut Jones after the end of this season there’s no change positive or negative to his cap hit.
The best cap outcome is to trade Jones before his roster bonus is due (presumably the first day of the league year) and the Giants would save about 4M.
So there isn't a financial advantage to be had for making what would likely be a lateral move at the position on another fringe vet starter. I can understand wanting to get another prospect in the pipeline ASAP but he's a perfectly fine 1 year veteran bridge guy from a cost standpoint.
as a thought experiment: we don't have Baltimore's offensive line, running backs, receivers. We currently don't have a front office that can get us any of those things consistently. We don't have an offensive coordinator (maybe not even a head coach) or scheme that specializes in running quarterbacks like Baltimore does.
Jackson is Willis' upside comparison and basically all of the elements that allowed Jackson to be successful then until now are not in place here.
We may never see Willis' upside in our current situation, so all that's left is downside risk.
And of course we need a front office and a coaching staff that's in sync with that front office. Just not a good situation until we see some certainty in those areas. Keeping Judge would also be a negative.
The 8.3M in guarantees on Jones are a sunk cost, there’s no new money that accelerates if he’s cut.
If the Giants cut Jones after the end of this season there’s no change positive or negative to his cap hit.
The best cap outcome is to trade Jones before his roster bonus is due (presumably the first day of the league year) and the Giants would save about 4M.
So there isn't a financial advantage to be had for making what would likely be a lateral move at the position on another fringe vet starter. I can understand wanting to get another prospect in the pipeline ASAP but he's a perfectly fine 1 year veteran bridge guy from a cost standpoint.
The advantage of trading Jones is twofold even if you remove any cap savings:
1. You get something for him in trade
2. You eliminate the possibility that Mara pays him an extension
There is a lot of buzz around Kenny Pickett. Jersey kid with moxie and toughness comparable to Joe Burrow. I've heard early predictions as the first QB off the board somewhere from 3-6. Again, it's early yet and I haven't had much time to watch so I'll lean on my guys still doing it for a living and suggest if NYG plans to move on from Jones and draft a new QB, then it should be for this kid.
A Free Agent addition wouldn't give you much more than Jones so players like Mariota, Minshew, and Trubisky would most likely just create a QB controversy unless of course, you trade Jones and draft one in an attempt to hedge your bet.
An alternative could be a trade. Watson seems unlikely for NYG unless all charges are dropped against him. Wilson, from what I hear is a fantasy. The realistic trade target would be Jimmy G who wouldn't cost near as much and would give the Giants a vet to start while the young QB develops.
I don't think the Jury is out on Jones quite yet but you're getting closer to the verdict.. a lot will depend on if ownership decides to keep Judge. If they get rid of Judge I don't see any new GM/HC combo hitching their wagon to Jones.
Kenny Pickett is not Joe Burrow. Pickett, for 4 seasons, failed to put up numbers even comparable to what Burrow put up in his first season at LSU after not really having meaningful game reps for YEARS prior to that season. Burrow's tremendous year at LSU was his second year at LSU. Pickett has had a great year this year, but I am skeptical. Did he finally realize something after 2020 season that has now been corrected? If so, that would indicate that 2021 is a better indicator of things to come. On the other hand, is his success this year attributed to the fact that he is basically playing some of the same teams for the 5th time whereas his opponents are 1st time starters? If that is the case, that means his first 4 years posting numbers that likely would get him drafted Late Day 3 if at all is a more accurate measure of his future.
Lol. I guess sometimes if you don’t his “show all” you probably won’t see all the posts. I think I did that here. Okay, I now see your answer….you like Watson and apparently don’t seem to care about his possible transgressions. And you like Carr.
Just curious….How would the Giants pay Watson’s salary and stay within the cap? We are already almost maxed out for 2022.
I also see you named about 4 college kids you like…are you saying we should take one of them in round one if we don’t pick up Watson, Wilson, or Carr?
I don't think it would be that much of a challenge to crowbar Watson's salary under the cap. A few of us have done that exercise and we could renegotiate the out years. But it's an exercise in futility because Mara will kill any chance of that deal.
I'm not sure where I would take these college QBs. From a physical talent standpoint, Willis and Ridder are first round talents. But there are reasonable counter points to say they are second day prospects. I just need to see more...
Pickett is the most polished - to me - as a thrower. And I think that, along, with this solid athleticism, puts him squarely in the first round.
I agree that there are potentially other advantages though. It entirely rests on what our options are. I just don't see eating Jones' cap costs and then paying another journeyman for a year as being viable if that is our best option.
I have no interest in speculating on what our options could be in April, no idea where we are drafting and I personally don't have a handle on the QB class. Ideally you do what the Jets do with Darnold. Hopefully that option is on the table.
The 8.3M in guarantees on Jones are a sunk cost, there’s no new money that accelerates if he’s cut.
If the Giants cut Jones after the end of this season there’s no change positive or negative to his cap hit.
The best cap outcome is to trade Jones before his roster bonus is due (presumably the first day of the league year) and the Giants would save about 4M.
So there isn't a financial advantage to be had for making what would likely be a lateral move at the position on another fringe vet starter. I can understand wanting to get another prospect in the pipeline ASAP but he's a perfectly fine 1 year veteran bridge guy from a cost standpoint.
The advantage of trading Jones is twofold even if you remove any cap savings:
1. You get something for him in trade
2. You eliminate the possibility that Mara pays him an extension
If DG is gone and replaced by someone from the outside, that is the last person with the clout to push for signing a player that was also involved in drafting of Jones. Mara does not give a sh*t about DG's legacy if Judge and the new GM are both saying they don't want Jones signed to an extension. By your logic we should never have anyone on the roster who is not planning on retiring because Mara may pay for an extension.
take a QB in the first 3 rounds, trade up or down if you have to for value. Take another one in rounds 4-6.
Bank as much cap as possible. If one of them hits great. Do the same thing next year until you find someone.
If that doesn't work and you have an OL and DL capable of keeping you a decent team with mediocre to bad QB play. Trade a bounty of picks for a proven veteran or a top of draft QB you are highly confident in.
This isn't rocket science but the Giants would have you believe it is and also that they are just unlucky rocket scientists.
There is a lot of buzz around Kenny Pickett. Jersey kid with moxie and toughness comparable to Joe Burrow. I've heard early predictions as the first QB off the board somewhere from 3-6. Again, it's early yet and I haven't had much time to watch so I'll lean on my guys still doing it for a living and suggest if NYG plans to move on from Jones and draft a new QB, then it should be for this kid.
I don't see it in Pickett at all. I don't see more than average arm strength and athleticism. He looks like an NFL backup to me.
These preseason QB rankings get shuffled every year come draft time because NFL projection is very different from college production.
My eyes and gut tell me the upside of Corral, Willis, and Howell don't warrant a high pick.
I'm leaning toward stopgap vet + maybe a developmental project like the Tennessee kid later in the draft. Draft offensive line and defense heavily.
Howell is the wildcard. He was great his first two years because UNC had more talent around him. But four of those players - both WRs and both RBs - got drafted. And their OL has gone an overhaul. So he's been under a lot of pressure this year. Howell he is a lot like Corral - tough, gritty and a plus arm, but a better, more durable body. But I'm down on his decision making this year and can't get him back into round one.
Hendon Hooker is absolutely an interesting later round prospect.
These preseason QB rankings get shuffled every year come draft time because NFL projection is very different from college production.
My eyes and gut tell me the upside of Corral, Willis, and Howell don't warrant a high pick.
I'm leaning toward stopgap vet + maybe a developmental project like the Tennessee kid later in the draft. Draft offensive line and defense heavily.
Howell is the wildcard. He was great his first two years because UNC had more talent around him. But four of those players - both WRs and both RBs - got drafted. And their OL has gone an overhaul. So he's been under a lot of pressure this year. Howell he is a lot like Corral - tough, gritty and a plus arm, but a better, more durable body. But I'm down on his decision making this year and can't get him back into round one.
Hendon Hooker is absolutely an interesting later round prospect.
If we are talking about later round guys, Kaleb Eleby of Western Michigan is one who interests me if he declares.
If we are talking about later round guys, Kaleb Eleby of Western Michigan is one who interests me if he declares.
Haven't seen him play. I have read about him.
For me, Jake Haener is the later round project that is interesting. Had a great year with Frez St. Just makes a ton of plays - a lot in the clutch - and he can sling it. I saw him against UCLA and he was out of his mind good.
as a thought experiment: we don't have Baltimore's offensive line, running backs, receivers. We currently don't have a front office that can get us any of those things consistently. We don't have an offensive coordinator (maybe not even a head coach) or scheme that specializes in running quarterbacks like Baltimore does.
Jackson is Willis' upside comparison and basically all of the elements that allowed Jackson to be successful then until now are not in place here.
We may never see Willis' upside in our current situation, so all that's left is downside risk.
We should build the lines first.
Bingo. Too many people think Lamar went out there by himself and succeeded. A lot went into his success and I don’t trust anyone currently connected to this organization to build a similar supporting cast for any of the young QBs in the draft, let alone Willis.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: You guys realize Trubisky is awful and
I am hesitant to draft a QB to replace Jones because we still have no OL and questionable talent due to injuries and inconsistency. Why would we believe another QB would step our of college to this team and have significantly more success than Jones?
This is why Gettleman should be fired already and we shouldn't do him the courtesy of waiting on retirement. He drafted Barkley at #2 and Jones at #6 back to back and still has a shitty OL. Our 2 huge draft investments, the biggest in years, were never fully supported or set up to succeed
The reason they won’t hate on him is because they are willing to give him more time for Jax to surround him with better talent. But these Jones haters made up their mind very early in Jones career. Some after one season, some after the second season. They don’t care about his surrounding talent….and none of them want him to succeed because it would make them look stupid.
So yeah….I’m taking notes on the Jones haters to see who they want to be our QB next year so I can keep reminding them how their guy is doing. But I suppose few if any of those guys will want to go on record….they are more critics than fans. You only hear from them when something is going poorly.
Is this Dave Gettle's nephew or are you just a couple cans short of six pack right there. Taking these forumsa a little personal huh?
is a better QB than Darnold at this point...for sure...however...
when Darnold left the Jets I think teams really used their draft grades as a measure on what to give up for him and I think league execs (generally speaking) were higher on Darnold when he was drafted than Jones.
I think NFL execs made the same kinds of excuses for Darnold as I see here on BBI with Jones except he doesn't have the same high draft marks.
Darnold is better. He has a better arm ; can make a broader range of throw and is still mobile. Cam Newton just like I siad is going to throw a bunch of picks. It is hard to play well on a team that has a bad oline and is talent deficient. I think the Panthers are about what the Giants are with better coaching. Bad teams can make good QBs look bad. That is not to say Jones is a good QB or that we should wait around see what he can do.
Didn't we just see Darnold with a better roster around him lose to Jones? Jones is better than Darnold.
Now whether we'd get as much for Jones - I don't think we would. Darnold was seen as a high first round pick who you could roll the dice on and maybe turn into something. Jones is seen as an overdrafted guy from the beginning.
Better roster? What better roster? Their oline is the same as ours ; they had no McCaff and they certainly don’t have our wideouts. The d showed up to play it was nothing jones did it was 3-5.
Darnold will get more because well he’s a better QB.
I actually think the about value this year is in rd 2
but anyone saying that bringing him back next year without competition is nuts. Are we going to just keep making rationalizations for the guy for the next 2 years? He's been dealt a crappy hand with the terrible OL/injuries but the guy never elevates those around him. Especially in the redzone. I'm for either.
A. Punting next year. The cap is awful. So bring in a vet (tyrod taylor) for an actual qb competition. In no way should he be the assumed starter. He 100% has not earned that.
B. Draft a qb if someone not named Dave Gettleman finds a guy who is a good value, whether it be round 1 or later. Fine with that guy competing with Jones and whoever plays better gets the job.
If Jones goes on a roll, the WRs come back healthy and Freddy lets him air it out this discussion will end. I liken Jones to Phil Simms, it took Phil a couple of years to come into his own.
Ive never seen so many pulled muscles in my life though
Who is the WRs coach? Are these guys not doing enough stretching before games and during them on the sidelines?
gives you everything Jones does at a low price where there is no need for a long-term commitment while the rest of the team is built up. Spend draft picks in other areas. Basically the Buffalo plan.
If Jones goes on a roll, the WRs come back healthy and Freddy lets him air it out this discussion will end. I liken Jones to Phil Simms, it took Phil a couple of years to come into his own.
Ive never seen so many pulled muscles in my life though
Who is the WRs coach? Are these guys not doing enough stretching before games and during them on the sidelines?
You mean now that Jints Central counter-espionage efforts have outed the sleeper cell Jerrah injected into the team? Good plan.
There is a lot of buzz around Kenny Pickett. Jersey kid with moxie and toughness comparable to Joe Burrow. I've heard early predictions as the first QB off the board somewhere from 3-6. Again, it's early yet and I haven't had much time to watch so I'll lean on my guys still doing it for a living and suggest if NYG plans to move on from Jones and draft a new QB, then it should be for this kid.
A Free Agent addition wouldn't give you much more than Jones so players like Mariota, Minshew, and Trubisky would most likely just create a QB controversy unless of course, you trade Jones and draft one in an attempt to hedge your bet.
An alternative could be a trade. Watson seems unlikely for NYG unless all charges are dropped against him. Wilson, from what I hear is a fantasy. The realistic trade target would be Jimmy G who wouldn't cost near as much and would give the Giants a vet to start while the young QB develops.
I don't think the Jury is out on Jones quite yet but you're getting closer to the verdict.. a lot will depend on if ownership decides to keep Judge. If they get rid of Judge I don't see any new GM/HC combo hitching their wagon to Jones.
Kenny Pickett is not Joe Burrow. Pickett, for 4 seasons, failed to put up numbers even comparable to what Burrow put up in his first season at LSU after not really having meaningful game reps for YEARS prior to that season. Burrow's tremendous year at LSU was his second year at LSU. Pickett has had a great year this year, but I am skeptical. Did he finally realize something after 2020 season that has now been corrected? If so, that would indicate that 2021 is a better indicator of things to come. On the other hand, is his success this year attributed to the fact that he is basically playing some of the same teams for the 5th time whereas his opponents are 1st time starters? If that is the case, that means his first 4 years posting numbers that likely would get him drafted Late Day 3 if at all is a more accurate measure of his future.
Mike, you wasted your time there. I said, his moxie and toughness are being compared to Burrow.
how scared some are of throwing big money at a big name QB.
It's far scarier going with a kid. History has proven this time and time again.
I don't know what to do because we don't know what this off-season will bring, but if Wilson and Rodgers are there to be had, you absolutely have to explore it if you're NYG.
Teams have fixed shit on the backs of a vet FA QB signing. It can be done. If the VET doesn't win here, fine, we should be used to it by now. We have a VET team with a lot of signed deals. Want to get the most out of Galladay or do you want to bitch and moan about his 3-50 stat line every week? Trust me, Wilson or Rodgers gets more out of him.
We need a savior. I don't care if we don't win a super bowl and are up against the cap every year. I want playoff appearances. More wins than losses once in a while? Maybe beat Dallas when shit matters just one time?
Or, draft a kid and try this shit all over again. Watch another HC get fired here UNLESS we step in shit and the kid is 100% ready made to deal with the most chaotic and difficult job in pro sports.
Or, take the easy way out and sign a HOF QB for draft picks.
I was thinking the same the other day, after watching Ridder
play again. I have seen him a lot the last couple of years.
He's not the sexy pick, but he could develop into a good one.
I just don't think the Giants will move on from Jones yet,
as much as some would like that to happen.
is that Pickett will be 24 years old before the start of the 2022 NFL season
And? The trend is good QBs are playing into their 40s.
The only variable I care about is finding a good QB.
What QB's other than Brady and Brees have played into their 40's lately and at a high level? Brees also had a noticeable drop off the last year (at 41) and Ben is most likely done after this year at 39.
is throwing good money after bad given the state of our O-Line. We need 3 new O-linemen this offseason. We also need a legit edge rusher and a coverage LB before we go anymore skill positions.
Run it with DJ next year and see where we stand at the end of the season with a new GM
However, how many still have the arm at that age? There's Rodgers, Ben (who's arm is diminished) and Brady right now? Am I missing anyone (honest question)? The rules may favor the ability too, whether the body/arm holds up is another question.
I'd still much rather spend the capital to invest in the OL/DL/Front 7 first and build up the trenches. That way, no matter whether it's Jones or a QB to be named later, they have a solid OL in front of them.
Maybe Pickett. Need to see it play out. Jones can be cut next year and cost us only 200k. I would save the 8 million and play Glennon if I had to in 2022. I think there will be better that shakes loose than Glennon though.
However, how many still have the arm at that age? There's Rodgers, Ben (who's arm is diminished) and Brady right now? Am I missing anyone (honest question)? The rules may favor the ability too, whether the body/arm holds up is another question.
I'd still much rather spend the capital to invest in the OL/DL/Front 7 first and build up the trenches. That way, no matter whether it's Jones or a QB to be named later, they have a solid OL in front of them.
I hear you on upgrading the OL. I'm all in and have beat that drum endlessly until my hands have bled.
The quagmire, however, is we need - IMV - a better OL and a better QB. I'm fine trying to find the QB solution in either the draft or seeing viable options in the NFL market after the season ends.
My original post was addressing ryan's issue with Pickett's age. And that I don't think we should dwell on that but, instead, decide if he's a good QB for us.
My original post was addressing ryan's issue with Pickett's age. And that I don't think we should dwell on that but, instead, decide if he's a good QB for us.
It's hard to believe people are using Pickett's age against him, as if losing 2-3 years off the back end of his career would be a big deal if he was good enough to play for that long in the first place.
Good God. Daniel Jones is 24 now and he stinks, so maybe we don't need to worry about whether or not a potential replacement will still be here in the year 2037.
My original post was addressing ryan's issue with Pickett's age. And that I don't think we should dwell on that but, instead, decide if he's a good QB for us.
It's hard to believe people are using Pickett's age against him, as if losing 2-3 years off the back end of his career would be a big deal if he was good enough to play for that long in the first place.
Good God. Daniel Jones is 24 now and he stinks, so maybe we don't need to worry about whether or not a potential replacement will still be here in the year 2037.
I do not think it is the 2-3 years off the back end of his career that worries teams, it is the fact that he is more physically mature than his opponents and why didn't he show any of this the last 4 years? If he was 24 but was relatively new to college QB position because he was playing minor league baseball and putting up these numbers I think that would be more attractive to teams.
Better roster? What better roster? Their oline is the same as ours ; they had no McCaff and they certainly don’t have our wideouts. The d showed up to play it was nothing jones did it was 3-5.
Darnold will get more because well he’s a better QB.
Panthers defense is better than NYG's and when the Giants played them, they had no one who scares anyone. His starters were Darius Slayton and Dante Pettis.
Panthers DJ Moore and Robby Anderson are very underrated.
but anyone saying that bringing him back next year without competition is nuts. Are we going to just keep making rationalizations for the guy for the next 2 years? He's been dealt a crappy hand with the terrible OL/injuries but the guy never elevates those around him. Especially in the redzone. I'm for either.
Because legitimate QB competition costs money and I'm a firm believer in the cliche that "if you have 2 QBs you don't have 1". I don't see the point in going 2X plus on our QB cap spend to end up in exactly the same place - a poor starting QB. The Bears did this with Trubisky/Foles and it was a giant waste of cap dollars.
Either cut bait completely and grab a new prospect or ride Jones as your cheap bridge QB. There shouldn't be a middle ground. There are zero savings, only additional cap spend, to having another washout veteran QB compete or replace Jones. Even bad starting QBs aren't cheap, anybody brought in will have incentives baked into that contract that will balloon that value to market floor rate of 10m set by Fitzpatrick and Tyrod this year. Trubisky may be making 2.5m this year but he was signed to be a backup, not compete with Josh Allen.
Reading BBI posts about it is a master class in determining who has been brought up in the "me first", "I deserve X", and "instant gratification" generations.
This is not an argument to keep Jones (so don't take it as that). But right now (as of late November 2021), I'm not sure I see a sure-fired #1 QB in this draft.
Don’t like the QB crop. Don’t want to deal anything for Russ, Watson or Rodgers
Same. Get a cheap FA for 1 to 2 years while looking for the next QB in the draft. Basically what the Pats did
If we're getting a new QB I would want one that we could get for a reasonable price or for them to draft someone. I will say I don't know much about the QBs coming out this year to have a preference.
Reading BBI posts about it is a master class in determining who has been brought up in the "me first", "I deserve X", and "instant gratification" generations.
great cranky old man post here.
Wilson and Rodgers are only the right move if you have a team a QB away from winning it all. We are so far from that it isn't funny. I would rather use the picks necessary to get those guys instead on guys that will improve the overall team (i.e. OL, OLB).
Watson I just wouldn't touch. I'm not trading anything for a guy who very well may be suspended and who hasn't played all year.
Wilson and Rodgers are only the right move if you have a team a QB away from winning it all. We are so far from that it isn't funny. I would rather use the picks necessary to get those guys instead on guys that will improve the overall team (i.e. OL, OLB).
Watson I just wouldn't touch. I'm not trading anything for a guy who very well may be suspended and who hasn't played all year.
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No QB is going to change the trajectory of this club with the offensive line in the state in which it currently exists.
Reading BBI posts about it is a master class in determining who has been brought up in the "me first", "I deserve X", and "instant gratification" generations.
great cranky old man post here.
Yeah....I'm cranky....I'm sick of assholes like you.
Now, Seattle is a possibility for Wilson- but no way I give up both 1's. So a trade of Jones, Barkley, a 1 and 3 this year and a 1 and 3 next year would be doable. That leaves us with a 1,2 and 3 still in this years draft and a chance to build up the Ol and Edge.
But, Wilson isn't what he used to be and his biggest downfall was a bad Oline with Seattle which he would be leaving one situation for the same here. He hasn't shown the ability to raise the play of the Oline.
Rodgers could do that but, he will be VERY expensive and thus unlikely we could fit in the cap.
Watson would be an option IF his legal troubles are cleared up and the cost is less than what the texans were seeking this year. No way I give up 4 #1's, none, zero, ziltch.
One option, which isn't GREAT but, could get us by for a bit and could turn out ok- we send Barkley to Houston along with picks from the Dolphins, the Texans send Watson to Miami and Miami sends Tua to us.
We then trade Jones to Carolina for whatever picks we can get.
This way we keep our draft picks, Miami can get by with sending a lesser pick package and we get a young QB that can move, and is still developing.
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In comment 15472272 rnargi said:
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No QB is going to change the trajectory of this club with the offensive line in the state in which it currently exists.
Reading BBI posts about it is a master class in determining who has been brought up in the "me first", "I deserve X", and "instant gratification" generations.
great cranky old man post here.
Yeah....I'm cranky....I'm sick of assholes like you.
lol. what did i ever do other than having a negative view of jones as the QB of the future?
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Prefer for the time being a Cap Friendly Free Agent as we rebuild this roster (Like a Minshew) and look at the draft in 2023 or 2024.
This is not an argument to keep Jones (so don't take it as that). But right now (as of late November 2021), I'm not sure I see a sure-fired #1 QB in this draft.
And you're right.
The car looks great in August but the tranny is shot and that "clicking" sound you hear coming from the cylinders is a bad thing...
Build inside out or perpetuate the troubles.
Perhaps Garrett getting the heave ho means Judge has won out over DG and perhaps Jones is next (obviously after the season).
Getting a 2nd or 3rd round QB wouldn't stop me from considering a first round QB in 2023.
I am 100% off the Jones bandwagon.
Not that the situation is exact, but bringing in Collins did result in a SB appearance. It always felt that he was a placeholder, though. I just don't see a vet out there worth the price it's going to take. When Russel had a great OL, he was great. Lately, he's looked like shit, and now he has a shit OL. I don't know...I just feel that you have to build from the lines out. Bill Parcells did it, TC did it, hell even Fassel did it to an extent. You have to win in the trenches, on both sides of the ball. I just don't see a QB change amounting to anything at all and there are no resources I'd part with to get a placeholder veteran and I don't like the prospects in college right now. Compromise if I must, start Jones next year and don't pick up his option. Worse comes to worst, we are paying him top 5 QB money on the tag in 2023. Would that be so bad?
No, he absolutely isn't. I don't get the love for this guy at all.
And you're right.
The car looks great in August but the tranny is shot and that "clicking" sound you hear coming from the cylinders is a bad thing...
Build inside out or perpetuate the troubles.
A bad QB can bring down the whole thing. That's where we are. We have had OL guys who have succeeded elsewhere but bomb here. Bad QB play can make it virtually impossible to fix the line.
Assuming Gettleman goes and Judge stays, which is the most likely outcome at this point, sign me up for a combination of a veteran backup and a draft pick used to upgrade the QB position. I don't think Jones has the ability to read opposing defenses or look off coverage and his instincts/vision with the ball in his hands as a runner are worrisome. As for whether Jones gets his 5th year option, obviously he gets a chance to compete for the job next year, but based on what we know now, if I were the incoming GM, I'm looking for a gut renovation.
2021 QBR - ( New Window )
Perhaps Garrett getting the heave ho means Judge has won out over DG and perhaps Jones is next (obviously after the season).
I’ve always felt the praise from judge towards Jones was bullshit. If he survives this year, I think we’ll see his true feelings. I know personally if I had to hitch my wagon to Jones for my job survival beyond 2022, I had better be sure I’m renting..
I don't think Jimmy G is much of an upgrade over Jones, but he is probably familiar with Judge and he would be a good locker room leader for relatively young team. Regardless, the Giants need to create some competition for Jones to get a better sense if he really has what it takes or at least give the team the option to go with a veteran QB rather than piss away another year pondering whether it is time to move on from Jones.
Bw
Terps
Debaser
Other big hate Jones guys…..let us know who is so great that you are coveting?
Bw
Terps
Debaser
Other big hate Jones guys…..let us know who is so great that you are coveting?
and that would prove absolutely nothing. Jones would still be an awful QB and not worth a half a decade of patience.
They have to use all their resourses to create a complete team
The team needs to rebuild the OL, obtain a two way TE, find edge rushers , linebackers, and a punter.
Obtaining a QB for a stop gap makes no sense. The cost of the QB would be more than Jones , and the play without the other improvements could be worse.
It does not appear that there is a great QB available in the draft and if there is he will go before the Giants pick
Houston, Detroit, and Philadelphia may draft QBs.
If a QB separates himself from the field he will go before the Giants pick.
The Giants will not move on from Jones. It makes no logical sense.
Now, Seattle is a possibility for Wilson- but no way I give up both 1's. So a trade of Jones, Barkley, a 1 and 3 this year and a 1 and 3 next year would be doable. That leaves us with a 1,2 and 3 still in this years draft and a chance to build up the Ol and Edge.
But, Wilson isn't what he used to be and his biggest downfall was a bad Oline with Seattle which he would be leaving one situation for the same here. He hasn't shown the ability to raise the play of the Oline.
Rodgers could do that but, he will be VERY expensive and thus unlikely we could fit in the cap.
Watson would be an option IF his legal troubles are cleared up and the cost is less than what the texans were seeking this year. No way I give up 4 #1's, none, zero, ziltch.
One option, which isn't GREAT but, could get us by for a bit and could turn out ok- we send Barkley to Houston along with picks from the Dolphins, the Texans send Watson to Miami and Miami sends Tua to us.
We then trade Jones to Carolina for whatever picks we can get.
This way we keep our draft picks, Miami can get by with sending a lesser pick package and we get a young QB that can move, and is still developing.
There is no way a quality Vet QB like the ones mentioned would consider coming to a team without a quality offensive line, not going to happen. Pipe dream. Keep Danny and all the draft picks and build a freaking line and add pass rushers.. This is what the team needs, we added the weapons on O this year, we need to build the Line and defensive pressure. Anything else IMO is foolish
I don't think Jimmy G is much of an upgrade over Jones, but he is probably familiar with Judge and he would be a good locker room leader for relatively young team. Regardless, the Giants need to create some competition for Jones to get a better sense if he really has what it takes or at least give the team the option to go with a veteran QB rather than piss away another year pondering whether it is time to move on from Jones.
There is no cost savings to this move. In fact it will cost you a lot more to put you right back where you started - a 1yr veteran bridge QB. I don't think Jones is second contract worthy but you're not doing better than 1yr 8m on a veteran starting QB. Tyrod Taylor and Ryan Fitzpatrick will earn 12m and 10m this year respectively. That isn't even factoring in the dead money cost in moving on.
The goal should be to upgrade Jones longterm, not marginally upgrade him for 1 year.
As I stand now, I’m big on OL with the 1st two picks (Neal and Kenyon Green please.)
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I'm on record as saying they should and will stick with Jones for next year. It never makes sense to me to go the veteran QB route. I don't see any franchise type QB prospects for this draft, but I'll admit I haven't watched a ton of college football this year. Would like to continue to build/rebuild the team with Jones for the time being.
Not that the situation is exact, but bringing in Collins did result in a SB appearance. It always felt that he was a placeholder, though. I just don't see a vet out there worth the price it's going to take. When Russel had a great OL, he was great. Lately, he's looked like shit, and now he has a shit OL. I don't know...I just feel that you have to build from the lines out. Bill Parcells did it, TC did it, hell even Fassel did it to an extent. You have to win in the trenches, on both sides of the ball. I just don't see a QB change amounting to anything at all and there are no resources I'd part with to get a placeholder veteran and I don't like the prospects in college right now. Compromise if I must, start Jones next year and don't pick up his option. Worse comes to worst, we are paying him top 5 QB money on the tag in 2023. Would that be so bad?
Thats what i would do.. agree 100%
Wilson and Rodgers are only the right move if you have a team a QB away from winning it all. We are so far from that it isn't funny. I would rather use the picks necessary to get those guys instead on guys that will improve the overall team (i.e. OL, OLB).
Watson I just wouldn't touch. I'm not trading anything for a guy who very well may be suspended and who hasn't played all year.
Rodgers and Wilson make us an immediate playoff contender
Possibly SB contender if we fill a few other holes
In this draft, which I think is underrated at QB, I am currently most interested in this trio: Pickett, Willis and Ridder, who is really starting to grow on me.
too early...
I'd urge patience at the QB position. Wait for someone you really like, maybe try and take on a reclamation project in the interim and hope you get lucky.
Getting the QB position right is very, very hard. The real mistake is wasting additional years hoping a bad player turns good.
Not saying Trubitsky is the guy but they should definitely have someone like that in as competition for Jones. Mariota is another one that I think makes sense.
The only QB in 2022 Draft who looks ready to play Week 1 of the season is Pickett IMHO, but I just don't see more than Tannehill/Cousins upside. Corral could play at some point in 2022, but not Week 1, and where he is being mocked now is way too high for what he is worth IMHO. Corral is a Top 15-20 pick at best, not a Top 5 guy.
Not sure who is available on FA market.
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do a switch for 2022 and that is a VET QB comes in. The problem is, we have high draft picks that we need to help the overall team too.
Now, Seattle is a possibility for Wilson- but no way I give up both 1's. So a trade of Jones, Barkley, a 1 and 3 this year and a 1 and 3 next year would be doable. That leaves us with a 1,2 and 3 still in this years draft and a chance to build up the Ol and Edge.
But, Wilson isn't what he used to be and his biggest downfall was a bad Oline with Seattle which he would be leaving one situation for the same here. He hasn't shown the ability to raise the play of the Oline.
Rodgers could do that but, he will be VERY expensive and thus unlikely we could fit in the cap.
Watson would be an option IF his legal troubles are cleared up and the cost is less than what the texans were seeking this year. No way I give up 4 #1's, none, zero, ziltch.
One option, which isn't GREAT but, could get us by for a bit and could turn out ok- we send Barkley to Houston along with picks from the Dolphins, the Texans send Watson to Miami and Miami sends Tua to us.
We then trade Jones to Carolina for whatever picks we can get.
This way we keep our draft picks, Miami can get by with sending a lesser pick package and we get a young QB that can move, and is still developing.
There is no way a quality Vet QB like the ones mentioned would consider coming to a team without a quality offensive line, not going to happen. Pipe dream. Keep Danny and all the draft picks and build a freaking line and add pass rushers.. This is what the team needs, we added the weapons on O this year, we need to build the Line and defensive pressure. Anything else IMO is foolish
Ok, first off my solution was the last option.. Secondly, you know nothing about any of those guys and what they WANT so speaking in absolutes is foolish. Wilson wants to build his brand and has been linked to the NY area a few times. I have zero idea on what he ultimately thinks and neither do you.
But, again, my option was the three team trade with Houston and Miami..
Willis is a project QB that is very raw that would have to sit for a year under the guidance and coaching of a QB guru.
Ridder actually intrigues me in the second round.
Having said all that,I think Jones remains next year as our QB and our first 2 picks will be BPA which might be OL and Edge players.
The 2023 QB class is shaping up to be much stronger than the 2022 class with Young,Stroud and Hartman.
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Who the Big anti-Jones guys are promoting and I will keep a record of this and follow that person next year.
Bw
Terps
Debaser
Other big hate Jones guys…..let us know who is so great that you are coveting?
and that would prove absolutely nothing. Jones would still be an awful QB and not worth a half a decade of patience.
No, it would prove something….it would prove all you loud mouths don’t know anything except to bitch moan and complain.
For instance, are these Jones Haters prepared to hate on Trevor Lawrence? Why not? Look at his numbers….
The reason they won’t hate on him is because they are willing to give him more time for Jax to surround him with better talent. But these Jones haters made up their mind very early in Jones career. Some after one season, some after the second season. They don’t care about his surrounding talent….and none of them want him to succeed because it would make them look stupid.
So yeah….I’m taking notes on the Jones haters to see who they want to be our QB next year so I can keep reminding them how their guy is doing. But I suppose few if any of those guys will want to go on record….they are more critics than fans. You only hear from them when something is going poorly.
So Producer, who do you want to qb our boys next year?
2. I would like the Giants to use one of their two first round picks on Matt Corral of Ole Miss.
3. Alternatively I like Malik Cunningham out of Louisville. He may be available on day 2. See linked article below.
4. I think Russell Wilson has several years of good football left in him and I would be happy to trade for him - I just don't know how the Giants swing it with their cap situation.
5. I don't expect anything past 5 years for any draft pick.
Link - ( New Window )
The only QB in 2022 Draft who looks ready to play Week 1 of the season is Pickett IMHO, but I just don't see more than Tannehill/Cousins upside. Corral could play at some point in 2022, but not Week 1, and where he is being mocked now is way too high for what he is worth IMHO. Corral is a Top 15-20 pick at best, not a Top 5 guy.
Not sure who is available on FA market.
I said above that Ridder is growing on me. His size, athleticism, and arm are all plus territory. And he's grown every year as the starter.
There is fat to trim form his game, but I think there is a high ceiling for dvelopment.
I haven't watched enough film to make a judgement on the QBs coming out this year but I'd much rather build both sides of the line long before taking a QB.
I'd only take OL/DL for most of this years draft picks. Maybe throw in a RB or WR at the end if they're compelling enough. Rachaad White caught my eye the other day.
As painful as it would be to go into another year with Jones/Glennon we are too far away from a playoff push for it to really matter next year.
If we can build up the lines this offseason maybe make a push for a QB in 2023 depending how Jones does.
I don’t want to trade major assets for Russell Wilson
I d try to pry the younger Mariota away from the Raiders
He's still under contract for one more year and I seriously doubt anyone is trading for him.
One thing is for absolute sure - they need to bring in someone to compete w/ Jones for the starting QB job.
I wouldn't be opposed to signing a Trubisky OR a Mariota AND drafting a QB with one of the 1st round picks.
I don't think Wilson/Rodgers are options. The Giants are going to be cap strapped next year and you can't kick money down the road on those guys.
The Giants should have been all in on that Minshew trade, but they probably didn't want to hurt the QB's feelings. I wouldn't be surprised if he's starting for Philly at some point.
Bw
Terps
Debaser
Other big hate Jones guys…..let us know who is so great that you are coveting?
They think he fucking sucks.
They have a shit ton of evidence to back that opinion up.
You don't like it.
Until then, nobody could win with this crap!
But he has played really poorly
Anyone who has seen him play this year cannot come away impressed.
He needs to stay in school another year and learn how to play the QB position.
I have seen him play many times and he is not Jackson or Watson. Not close.
He has no feel for the game, despite his physical gifts he is prone to bad plays.
And this is coming against the likes of the Rajun Cajuns
Isn't that forcing picks?
If Wilson, Garrapolo, or Rodgers can be brought in let Daniel sit a couple of years
If not
Stick with Jones IMHO
It would be a disaster to bring in a College QB and have to start all over re-building
In my opinion even if you draft a top QB Jones is most likely the starter next year.
And niether of these guys is Deshaun watson or Lamar Jackson. They were both big time college QBs that finished in the top 3 of the heisman race twice with Lamar winning one. And Watson was a champion coming out.
I have watched a lot of college this year and I’m sticking with DJ too.
Craig Morton (1974-76), Cost, a #1 and a #2. (note Cowboys used the #1 to draft Randy White). Results, 1974, 2-12, 1975, 5-9, 1976, 3-11(Morton benched mid-year), total, 29TDs, 49 INTs.
Given the state of the Giants O-line, and the likely cost in draft capital, how much better to do you think Russell Wilson would do?
The Tarkenton and Morton trades set the Giants back a decade. "Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it."
Isn't that forcing picks?
So Terps, who do you want to qb the Giants next year? I haven’t seen your answer yet. Is this question above your pay grade? I know this question is asking you for your input, not your criticism, which is not what you usually do.
Isn't that forcing picks?
No, forcing a pick is taking a QB high just to do so, when said QB may not be the value of the pick- ie, overdrafted. Where we are picking the Oline choices are 1st rd oline picks, it is just a matter of OL vs another position.
I agree on Corral being the only QB I would want in Rd 1 BUT, nowhere near the top of the draft though.. Their are Edge and OL guys all better picks (based on their talent and projection) that would be far better for us.
I want a 2022 QB competition in training camp with a journeymen free agent like Tyrod Taylor or a last starting chance guy like Trubisky or Rosen. I do not want the Giants using a 1st round or 2nd round draft pick on a QB. I want those picks to be OL or DL/Edge. I don't like any of the QBs in the draft but my choice would be Pickett from Pitt but not in the first two rounds, only if he drops to round 3.
Trevor Lawrence struggles is not an exoneration of DJ. Trevor Lawrence is not a cautionary tale for the Giants.
Reading BBI posts about it is a master class in determining who has been brought up in the "me first", "I deserve X", and "instant gratification" generations.
You are the fan John Mara dreams about. Low expectations and always willing to buy any excuse for failure. Having a top-10 pick look competent in year 3 of his career is not "instant gratification."
But thanks anyway for the misguided condescension.
If that's the level of QB play you want to maintain then trade Jones and sign a FA for $3M or $4M. You save cap space, add a draft pick, and lose nothing in performance.
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then they say the picks have to be used on the lines.
Isn't that forcing picks?
So Terps, who do you want to qb the Giants next year? I haven’t seen your answer yet. Is this question above your pay grade? I know this question is asking you for your input, not your criticism, which is not what you usually do.
Is this serious? Didn't I just post this info above?
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In comment 15472321 ryanmkeane said:
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I'm on record as saying they should and will stick with Jones for next year. It never makes sense to me to go the veteran QB route. I don't see any franchise type QB prospects for this draft, but I'll admit I haven't watched a ton of college football this year. Would like to continue to build/rebuild the team with Jones for the time being.
Not that the situation is exact, but bringing in Collins did result in a SB appearance. It always felt that he was a placeholder, though. I just don't see a vet out there worth the price it's going to take. When Russel had a great OL, he was great. Lately, he's looked like shit, and now he has a shit OL. I don't know...I just feel that you have to build from the lines out. Bill Parcells did it, TC did it, hell even Fassel did it to an extent. You have to win in the trenches, on both sides of the ball. I just don't see a QB change amounting to anything at all and there are no resources I'd part with to get a placeholder veteran and I don't like the prospects in college right now. Compromise if I must, start Jones next year and don't pick up his option. Worse comes to worst, we are paying him top 5 QB money on the tag in 2023. Would that be so bad?
Thats what i would do.. agree 100%
I agree with this also.
If that's the level of QB play you want to maintain then trade Jones and sign a FA for $3M or $4M. You save cap space, add a draft pick, and lose nothing in performance.
Why sign a vet then? Just keep Jones for another year....same outcome for a fraction of cost
As JonC accurately states, the Giants need more elite talent. Not in favor of trading the first round picks, maybe the Bears pick in a trade down.
If you love Corral, take him.
They should have brought in Minshew or a Trubisky this year for competition. Also have 2 quarterbacks with similar tools so the offense doesn't need to change its identity. I'd look to bring a veteran and another younger, cheap quarterback. Probably a mid round pick. Open competition.
Isn't that forcing picks?
There is a far more likely chance that there are Linemen available where the Giants will be picking than a QB and history has taught us that teams will greatly overdraft QBs. IF there a re no lineman that make sense where the Giants pick than they can pick a an LB or CB, what is the chance that all 4 of those positions don't have any value guys around the 10th pick in the draft?
And here is the Jones First argument in a nutshell
Jones in year 3 - "it's only been 3 years and he's played behind a bad Oline. Need more time to see what he is"
Lawrence after 11 games - "he sucks"
Jones has already shown enough to say that he could be a winning QB, so throwing him away now makes absolutely zero sense.
Fix the G..D... OL to give him a real running game and some time to throw. And get a real pass rush and some ILBs who can stop the run to get opponents off the field.
No QB coming out looks like anything more than the latest flash in the pan who won't work out. NFL history is littered with the next great collegiate QB who didn't make it, often because they ended up on teams that lacked talent, the very definition of the GIANTS for the past decade.
Acquiring a vet QB hasn't worked for this team since they got Charlie Conerly back in the middle of the last century. (Note that none of Y.A. Tittle, Fran Tarkington, or Kerry Collins won a championship for the G-men, and they are by far the most successful vet QB acquisitions the GIANTS made since acquiring Chuckin' Charlie who led them to the NFL Championship in 1956.)
It seems after endless "we need to get rid of Jones" threads since the summer, the prevailing opinion is to keep him one more year?
I'd urge patience at the QB position. Wait for someone you really like, maybe try and take on a reclamation project in the interim and hope you get lucky.
Getting the QB position right is very, very hard. The real mistake is wasting additional years hoping a bad player turns good.
This is where I am. If you see a guy you like in the draft you get him. You don't force a pick.
If you don't draft a guy, bring in a vet and make Jones compete for the job. There is no reason you have to get rid of him, but he has to earn a roster spot.
There are enough holes to fill on this team that you need to get playmakers in the draft, whatever position they play.
It seems after endless "we need to get rid of Jones" threads since the summer, the prevailing opinion is to keep him one more year?
I think since you started this thread that a lot more people are willing to respond then if it was one of the anti Jones crew. I also believe that there is a VERY vocal anti Jones minority on this site that dominates the site and the conversation.
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No QB is going to change the trajectory of this club with the offensive line in the state in which it currently exists.
Reading BBI posts about it is a master class in determining who has been brought up in the "me first", "I deserve X", and "instant gratification" generations.
.
Seriously which generation would that be all of them? Has human nature changed all that much?
Not to mention one thing really has nothing to do with the other. This team needs a QB and then an oline. It has Thomas so that is definitively a start. If you really believe no QB would do with this line then start Glennon. After watching Jones last game i know Glennon can make throws Jones cannot.
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I misreading this thread?
It seems after endless "we need to get rid of Jones" threads since the summer, the prevailing opinion is to keep him one more year?
I think since you started this thread that a lot more people are willing to respond then if it was one of the anti Jones crew. I also believe that there is a VERY vocal anti Jones minority on this site that dominates the site and the conversation.
Plus it seems like that this year isn't a great draft for QBs so why force one.
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There are any number of guys that will make less than $8M that can throw 15-20 TDs a season and lead the offense to 17-20 PPG.
If that's the level of QB play you want to maintain then trade Jones and sign a FA for $3M or $4M. You save cap space, add a draft pick, and lose nothing in performance.
Why sign a vet then? Just keep Jones for another year....same outcome for a fraction of cost
Huh?
Mitch Trubisky signed in Buffalo for 1 year, $2.5M.
Using that contract as an example:
1. Sign Trubisky
2. Trade Jones
Results:
1. Get a draft pick for Jones
2. Save ~$5.8M in cap space
3. Maintain similar (I'd say slightly improved) performance at quarterback
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There are any number of guys that will make less than $8M that can throw 15-20 TDs a season and lead the offense to 17-20 PPG.
If that's the level of QB play you want to maintain then trade Jones and sign a FA for $3M or $4M. You save cap space, add a draft pick, and lose nothing in performance.
Why sign a vet then? Just keep Jones for another year....same outcome for a fraction of cost
IMO a vet will help the offense develop better overall, and it takes a huge monkey off of JJs back. Jones being bad for a 4th year absolutely sinks Judge.
Not much, if at all. I think this is what Jones is. There are nearly 6 years of high level football backing that up. There isn't a good quarterback in there just waiting to be freed.
It seems after endless "we need to get rid of Jones" threads since the summer, the prevailing opinion is to keep him one more year?
People are terrified of drafting another Jones.
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In comment 15472545 Go Terps said:
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There are any number of guys that will make less than $8M that can throw 15-20 TDs a season and lead the offense to 17-20 PPG.
If that's the level of QB play you want to maintain then trade Jones and sign a FA for $3M or $4M. You save cap space, add a draft pick, and lose nothing in performance.
Why sign a vet then? Just keep Jones for another year....same outcome for a fraction of cost
Huh?
Mitch Trubisky signed in Buffalo for 1 year, $2.5M.
Using that contract as an example:
1. Sign Trubisky
2. Trade Jones
Results:
1. Get a draft pick for Jones
2. Save ~$5.8M in cap space
3. Maintain similar (I'd say slightly improved) performance at quarterback
The argument to move on from him as a means of turning the page holds more water imo. Even then, it doesn't make sense when they're likely to runback the coach and most of the front office outside of Gettleman.
Rather than a guy who can carry a team on his back with his play escaping pressure, throwing guys open, etc... no matter what's going on.
Just my opinion
Reading BBI posts about it is a master class in determining who has been brought up in the "me first", "I deserve X", and "instant gratification" generations.
Let's not go ad hominem. It won't go well for you.
Rather than a guy who can carry a team on his back with his play escaping pressure, throwing guys open, etc... no matter what's going on.
Just my opinion
and even that's not clear. That's just the best case scenario.
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In comment 15472545 Go Terps said:
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There are any number of guys that will make less than $8M that can throw 15-20 TDs a season and lead the offense to 17-20 PPG.
If that's the level of QB play you want to maintain then trade Jones and sign a FA for $3M or $4M. You save cap space, add a draft pick, and lose nothing in performance.
Why sign a vet then? Just keep Jones for another year....same outcome for a fraction of cost
Huh?
Mitch Trubisky signed in Buffalo for 1 year, $2.5M.
Using that contract as an example:
1. Sign Trubisky
2. Trade Jones
Results:
1. Get a draft pick for Jones
2. Save ~$5.8M in cap space
3. Maintain similar (I'd say slightly improved) performance at quarterback
Yes the Trubisky contract should be the Jones baseline.
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In comment 15472371 5BowlsSoon said:
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Who the Big anti-Jones guys are promoting and I will keep a record of this and follow that person next year.
Bw
Terps
Debaser
Other big hate Jones guys…..let us know who is so great that you are coveting?
and that would prove absolutely nothing. Jones would still be an awful QB and not worth a half a decade of patience.
No, it would prove something….it would prove all you loud mouths don’t know anything except to bitch moan and complain.
For instance, are these Jones Haters prepared to hate on Trevor Lawrence? Why not? Look at his numbers….
The reason they won’t hate on him is because they are willing to give him more time for Jax to surround him with better talent. But these Jones haters made up their mind very early in Jones career. Some after one season, some after the second season. They don’t care about his surrounding talent….and none of them want him to succeed because it would make them look stupid.
So yeah….I’m taking notes on the Jones haters to see who they want to be our QB next year so I can keep reminding them how their guy is doing. But I suppose few if any of those guys will want to go on record….they are more critics than fans. You only hear from them when something is going poorly.
So Producer, who do you want to qb our boys next year?
Like what ? I am not a GM. But let's face it around here it is like the emperor is not wearing any clothes. Jones was a WTF pick. 3 years later not much has changed except the excuses ... weapons, Garrett, not it is oline.
Want to hear a hot take? This team has no offensive line, no pass rushers, and linebackers who can’t cover. Same hot take as the ones for the
last 7 or so years. And the same crap that never gets fixed, in the same areas that you need to be competitive in the league.
Fix the more pressing roster needs first, then figure out if we spend another first round pick on a QB. And that means another two years at least of bad football until we can turn over around 80% of the roster.
I am all about not exercising the 5th year option on Jones and re-exploring this next year
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In comment 15472586 Simms11 said:
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In comment 15472545 Go Terps said:
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There are any number of guys that will make less than $8M that can throw 15-20 TDs a season and lead the offense to 17-20 PPG.
If that's the level of QB play you want to maintain then trade Jones and sign a FA for $3M or $4M. You save cap space, add a draft pick, and lose nothing in performance.
Why sign a vet then? Just keep Jones for another year....same outcome for a fraction of cost
Huh?
Mitch Trubisky signed in Buffalo for 1 year, $2.5M.
Using that contract as an example:
1. Sign Trubisky
2. Trade Jones
Results:
1. Get a draft pick for Jones
2. Save ~$5.8M in cap space
3. Maintain similar (I'd say slightly improved) performance at quarterback
I don't hate this.
I think the evidence shows that Mitch and Jones are like the same guy through the number of games Jones has played. Actually, I think Mitch is a hair better statistically. Obviously, neither are what you want, but if Trubisky is a fraction of what DJ will be in 2022, it makes sense for the NYG especially given how badly Dave and Abrams fucked them cap-wise for 2022.
Want to hear a hot take? This team has no offensive line, no pass rushers, and linebackers who can’t cover. Same hot take as the ones for the
last 7 or so years. And the same crap that never gets fixed, in the same areas that you need to be competitive in the league.
Fix the more pressing roster needs first, then figure out if we spend another first round pick on a QB. And that means another two years at least of bad football until we can turn over around 80% of the roster.
I understand your point of view and I think it is a reasonable opinion, however, how do we know that replacing Jones with even a middle of the road starter won't dramatically improve this team?
There is a non-zero probability that Jones is the biggest problem we have and is what is holding this team back. We need to at least bring in competition to see if a middling QB can do much better.
Even if the new GM wants to move on from Jones, he may not be able to do so by the start of next season. 2023 of course is entirely different, especially since I don't think the Giants will pick up Jones's 5th year option.
No, they don't. This is where we are. People are actually advocating replacing Jones with Trubisky.
And you realize he's been a better pro quarterback than Jones, right?
No one's saying Trubisky is good. The point is if you want to maintain Jones-level quarterbacking in 2022 you can do it for cheaper than Jones AND get something in return for Jones in trade.
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can't hit the broad side of a barn, right?
No, they don't. This is where we are. People are actually advocating replacing Jones with Trubisky.
I would, however, be very open to a reasonable FA to either challenge Jones or act as a stop gap.
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can't hit the broad side of a barn, right?
No, they don't. This is where we are. People are actually advocating replacing Jones with Trubisky.
No one's advocating for it. I'm not...I want to draft Matt Corral.
Is there some way that I'm not being clear here?
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In comment 15472686 Walker Gillette said:
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can't hit the broad side of a barn, right?
No, they don't. This is where we are. People are actually advocating replacing Jones with Trubisky.
I know a few Bears fan from Chicago that are clients and they all think this is insane.
This tells you how much more rational the bears fanbase is than the fans here on BBI.
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can't hit the broad side of a barn, right?
No, they don't. This is where we are. People are actually advocating replacing Jones with Trubisky.
This is where some posters start to wonder if anyone on BBI pays attention to any team other than the Giants.
Trubisky's numbers (including accuracy) far exceed DJ's. And it's not like Chicago's OL or skill position players were (or are) particularly great.
Link - ( New Window )
Actually I may have been mistaken as it looks like almost all his money is guaranteed outside of 965k in base salary. I guess there are ways of getting around that if you find a suitor that will restructure his deal and absorb those costs prior to roster bonus hitting but seems like a lot of variables and maneuvering to do in order to end up in the exact same place or even have a net negative financially.
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-york-giants/cap/2022/ - ( New Window )
I would, however, be very open to a reasonable FA to either challenge Jones or act as a stop gap.
+1.
2) I just cant take the mechanical robot QB-ing anymore. 3 years of panic when the 1st read isn't open. No imagination, no improvisation. Watching him go through his pre-programmed decision tree at a glacial rate. Inability to do anything at the end of games. It's just the worst kind of bad QB-ing.
We should definitely draft a QB in the 1st 2 rounds. This idea that people can predict who the good QBs are is complete nonsense. Look at the recent drafts. Look at where the top 12 QBs in the league were drafted. There's a ton of luck and randomness. Fold this shitty hand. Get a new hand. Hope it works. If it sucks, fold it and get a new one.
Not sure about Producer.BW seems to like Pickett if we draft a QB in this upcoming draft.
2) I just cant take the mechanical robot QB-ing anymore. 3 years of panic when the 1st read isn't open. No imagination, no improvisation. Watching him go through his pre-programmed decision tree at a glacial rate. Inability to do anything at the end of games. It's just the worst kind of bad QB-ing.
We should definitely draft a QB in the 1st 2 rounds. This idea that people can predict who the good QBs are is complete nonsense. Look at the recent drafts. Look at where the top 12 QBs in the league were drafted. There's a ton of luck and randomness. Fold this shitty hand. Get a new hand. Hope it works. If it sucks, fold it and get a new one.
"Fold this shitty hand" is such a great way to describe my feelings.
2) I just cant take the mechanical robot QB-ing anymore. 3 years of panic when the 1st read isn't open. No imagination, no improvisation. Watching him go through his pre-programmed decision tree at a glacial rate. Inability to do anything at the end of games. It's just the worst kind of bad QB-ing.
We should definitely draft a QB in the 1st 2 rounds. This idea that people can predict who the good QBs are is complete nonsense. Look at the recent drafts. Look at where the top 12 QBs in the league were drafted. There's a ton of luck and randomness. Fold this shitty hand. Get a new hand. Hope it works. If it sucks, fold it and get a new one.
The rookie contract structure and rule changes to favor the offense have simultaneously lowered the cost of being wrong and allowed teams to learn what they have much quicker than they did 15 years ago. Teams not adjusting to the new reality are going to be sunk for a long time.
Don't we have enough data/eye tests to conclude he does nothing special and his ceiling is game manager at best?
Bridgewater, Daulton, Tyrod Taylor? All would be 1 and done players and you would have to hope for a bad enough season to get a high draft pick in 2023. Maybe you want Big Ben! No way he would come to the Giants. He would retire first. He may do that anyway.
I would rather let Jones start in 2022, and start fresh or stick with him for 2023. I think sone of you anti-Jones fans hope he fails.
NAME ONE
Don't we have enough data/eye tests to conclude he does nothing special and his ceiling is game manager at best?
You clearly are 100% ready to cut ties, which is fine. I can understand that and even get behind it. But, who do you propose as the QB next year?
100%. This is not a binary decision of either a) Jones is the future or; b) he is off the team next year.
This year was to evaluate whether Jones was the long term answer at QB. It is pretty clear to most that he isn't. Plenty of teams in the NFL go into the season knowing the guy under center isn't their long term answer, but a stop gap. That is what the Giants would be doing next year with Jones on the team.
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In comment 15472686 Walker Gillette said:
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can't hit the broad side of a barn, right?
No, they don't. This is where we are. People are actually advocating replacing Jones with Trubisky.
This is where some posters start to wonder if anyone on BBI pays attention to any team other than the Giants.
Trubisky's numbers (including accuracy) far exceed DJ's. And it's not like Chicago's OL or skill position players were (or are) particularly great. Link - ( New Window )
I don’t see that at all.
Trubisky was drafted in 2017. Jones in 2019. But as the backup to Josh Allen, Trubisky has only thrown seven passes this year, so he’s really only had one more season than Jones.
Completion percentages: Jones 62.8%. Trubisky 64.1%.
Yards: Jones 8,398. Trubisky 10,637 (with an extra season).
Rate: Jones 84.3. Trubisky 86.9.
Sacks: Jones 105. Trubisky 111. This means that despite playing one less season than Trubisky, Jones has taken nearly as many sacks.
Rushing: Jones 1,000. Trubisky 1,084. Jones has nearly as many rushing yards as Trubisky despite playing one less season.
Not much of a difference IMO, and some of those statistics clearly favor Jones.
Don't we have enough data/eye tests to conclude he does nothing special and his ceiling is game manager at best?
Answer the friggin question bw…..WHO DO YOU WANT TO BE THE NEXT GIANTS QB?
I know, I know…..you don’t want to go on record looking stupid when your guy fails….you would rather sit back and throw stones at guys when you perceive they are failing?
Hey bw….are you throwing rocks at Trevor Lawrence yet? After 10 games, he looks to be a dud. Not very impressive numbers after 10 games…only 9 TDs, 10 interceptions…only 2 wins…..
So, are you going to tell us who NY should replace Jones with or is that also above your pay grade? Did all you Anti Jones haters go to the same high school?
I know, I know…..you don’t want to go on record looking stupid when your guy fails…
That seems like your department.
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is why the hell should we keep Jones?
Don't we have enough data/eye tests to conclude he does nothing special and his ceiling is game manager at best?
I wouldn't necessarily advocate for keeping him as much as not seeing a better option right now.
You clearly are 100% ready to cut ties, which is fine. I can understand that and even get behind it. But, who do you propose as the QB next year?
Bw, like Terps, like Producer, like Debaser won’t answer the question….they realize to answer would put them in a corner….plus, they feel their only job here is to throw rocks at players. Somehow they feel bigger or smarter or louder….
However in a vacuum, the financials of a one year deal for him as a vet bridge option are fine as long as he's not blocking a young player. Ideally you have the opportunity to do what the Jets did with Darnold last draft but if that's not on the table, I do think that bridge year provides you the opportunity to punt until next year. Just don't Bortles it.
Not sure about Producer.BW seems to like Pickett if we draft a QB in this upcoming draft.
Producer and Debaser are the same person. He mistakenly (I assume) answered a post intended for Producer as Debaser on this very thread.
It's called reading. It usually works best left to right...
warrants it. keep trying till you get it right.
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In comment 15472754 bw in dc said:
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is why the hell should we keep Jones?
Don't we have enough data/eye tests to conclude he does nothing special and his ceiling is game manager at best?
I wouldn't necessarily advocate for keeping him as much as not seeing a better option right now.
You clearly are 100% ready to cut ties, which is fine. I can understand that and even get behind it. But, who do you propose as the QB next year?
Bw, like Terps, like Producer, like Debaser won’t answer the question….they realize to answer would put them in a corner….plus, they feel their only job here is to throw rocks at players. Somehow they feel bigger or smarter or louder….
How fucking stupid are you?
Are there any FAs that interest you as a possibility?
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In comment 15472692 AcidTest said:
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In comment 15472686 Walker Gillette said:
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can't hit the broad side of a barn, right?
No, they don't. This is where we are. People are actually advocating replacing Jones with Trubisky.
I know a few Bears fan from Chicago that are clients and they all think this is insane.
This tells you how much more rational the bears fanbase is than the fans here on BBI.
They think it's insane because they all feel Jones is far better than Trubisky!
If Jones sucks next year you move on, with the next guy stepping into a good situation. If he’s good then you keep him or trade him. If he wants too much money you trade him or release him.
2022 isn’t the year to force a QB pick when they have a golden opportunity to fix the OL and DL in one draft.
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In comment 15472696 Walker Gillette said:
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In comment 15472692 AcidTest said:
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In comment 15472686 Walker Gillette said:
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can't hit the broad side of a barn, right?
No, they don't. This is where we are. People are actually advocating replacing Jones with Trubisky.
I know a few Bears fan from Chicago that are clients and they all think this is insane.
This tells you how much more rational the bears fanbase is than the fans here on BBI.
They think it's insane because they all feel Jones is far better than Trubisky!
And yet...
Link - ( New Window )
So I want to trade Jones in the offseason. I think he can net a valuable pick in a loaded draft.
Then you look at the QB situations on teams like Philly and the 49ers and see if you can pluck out a reasonable starter. Btw, very much disagree with the poster above who says Garoppolo isn’t an upgrade over Jones. JG is not a pro bowler but is a competent NFL QB and is much better. I expect everyone saw that news report that the 9ers are planning to trade Garoppolo in 2022.
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In comment 15472696 Walker Gillette said:
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In comment 15472692 AcidTest said:
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In comment 15472686 Walker Gillette said:
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can't hit the broad side of a barn, right?
No, they don't. This is where we are. People are actually advocating replacing Jones with Trubisky.
I know a few Bears fan from Chicago that are clients and they all think this is insane.
This tells you how much more rational the bears fanbase is than the fans here on BBI.
They think it's insane because they all feel Jones is far better than Trubisky!
There was a thread a month ago about Jones' first 32 starts versus other QB's. Trubisky was matched up against him:
Daniel Jones
7,494 yards
903 rushing 5 TD
39 TD / 26 INT
35 fumbles / 19 Lost
W/L (9-23)
95 sacks
Mitch Trubisky
6,624 yards
715 rushing 5 TD
36 TD / 22 INT
17 fumbles / 7 Lost
W/L (17-15)
72 sacks
They're actually fairly comparable players. Even if you give the edge to Jones, it seems like the attitude from fans and around the league towards him is vastly different than it was for Trubisky as he was leaving the Bears - Trubisky was seen universally as being a huge bust.
So you want to move on from jones for Gardner minshew??
This is why I hate cap talk.
Why not keep DJ and his $8 mil on the books for next year
sign Mitch T. - the guy currently has a 1 year 2.5 million dollar deal. Maybe two years for 5 million and only guarantee the money for next year.
you draft a young guy (or wait until next year)...and let them all compete for the starting job. OR if Mitch T. or DJ win the job and play well you extend one or the other.
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Prefer for the time being a Cap Friendly Free Agent as we rebuild this roster (Like a Minshew) and look at the draft in 2023 or 2024.
So you want to move on from jones for Gardner minshew??
This is why I hate cap talk.
If we somehow were able to flip DJ and get GM for half the price in a year that we're facing a cap crunch and are likely to part ways with DJ anyway, why would that be a bad idea, if it allows us to sign some help or extend some young talent?
Bring him back with no viable competition like they have the last two years is the worst possible solution to this problem.
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Prefer for the time being a Cap Friendly Free Agent as we rebuild this roster (Like a Minshew) and look at the draft in 2023 or 2024.
So you want to move on from jones for Gardner minshew??
This is why I hate cap talk.
Like I said, he may not be your franchise, but he also hasn't sucked.
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I think from Debaser comments his QB is Glennon already on the team.
Not sure about Producer.BW seems to like Pickett if we draft a QB in this upcoming draft.
Producer and Debaser are the same person. He mistakenly (I assume) answered a post intended for Producer as Debaser on this very thread.
That totally makes sense! I have often wondered
Are there any FAs that interest you as a possibility?
Just FYI - my tone was directed at 5Bowls, not you. He clearly has a problem reading.
I like what I have seen with Pickett this year. The light finally went on and he's had a season worthy of Heisman consideration. Pitt is two very close losses from being undefeated. I like his arm, accuracy and his subtle mobility. There are legit question marks - like why did it take so long for him to finally get it - but I would roll those dice.
I have been back and forth on Ridder. I really like his three dimensions physically - size, athleticism, and arm strength. I see a Marriota type but with a much better arm and savy.
And being the soul of that offense, he's the reason why Cincinnati is now a national power. So the growth has been on the upward slope over the course of his career. While he can be erratic, I think it's worth the stretch with those physical attributes. His game/style is the prototype in today's NFL.
Willis has it all. He's just in a big slump. Which is going to drag on his draft standing - I believe. So the question marks have creeped back in.
Corral is a real gamer with a terrific arm, grit, and toughness. I said it before Sy did, but his body type is a concern. He's built like Jake Plummer - very narrow. And that could be a problem...
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In comment 15472734 Rick in Dallas said:
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I think from Debaser comments his QB is Glennon already on the team.
Not sure about Producer.BW seems to like Pickett if we draft a QB in this upcoming draft.
Producer and Debaser are the same person. He mistakenly (I assume) answered a post intended for Producer as Debaser on this very thread.
That totally makes sense! I have often wondered
This is true.
But I'm surprised you couldn't pick up on it since you have two dupe handles yourself (broadbandz and chiro56).
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I didn't see that post earlier. Are you higher on Pcikett or Ridder at this point?
Are there any FAs that interest you as a possibility?
Just FYI - my tone was directed at 5Bowls, not you. He clearly has a problem reading.
I like what I have seen with Pickett this year. The light finally went on and he's had a season worthy of Heisman consideration. Pitt is two very close losses from being undefeated. I like his arm, accuracy and his subtle mobility. There are legit question marks - like why did it take so long for him to finally get it - but I would roll those dice.
I have been back and forth on Ridder. I really like his three dimensions physically - size, athleticism, and arm strength. I see a Marriota type but with a much better arm and savy.
And being the soul of that offense, he's the reason why Cincinnati is now a national power. So the growth has been on the upward slope over the course of his career. While he can be erratic, I think it's worth the stretch with those physical attributes. His game/style is the prototype in today's NFL.
Willis has it all. He's just in a big slump. Which is going to drag on his draft standing - I believe. So the question marks have creeped back in.
Corral is a real gamer with a terrific arm, grit, and toughness. I said it before Sy did, but his body type is a concern. He's built like Jake Plummer - very narrow. And that could be a problem...
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I didn't see that post earlier. Are you higher on Pcikett or Ridder at this point?
Are there any FAs that interest you as a possibility?
Just FYI - my tone was directed at 5Bowls, not you. He clearly has a problem reading.
I like what I have seen with Pickett this year. The light finally went on and he's had a season worthy of Heisman consideration. Pitt is two very close losses from being undefeated. I like his arm, accuracy and his subtle mobility. There are legit question marks - like why did it take so long for him to finally get it - but I would roll those dice.
I have been back and forth on Ridder. I really like his three dimensions physically - size, athleticism, and arm strength. I see a Marriota type but with a much better arm and savy.
And being the soul of that offense, he's the reason why Cincinnati is now a national power. So the growth has been on the upward slope over the course of his career. While he can be erratic, I think it's worth the stretch with those physical attributes. His game/style is the prototype in today's NFL.
Willis has it all. He's just in a big slump. Which is going to drag on his draft standing - I believe. So the question marks have creeped back in.
Corral is a real gamer with a terrific arm, grit, and toughness. I said it before Sy did, but his body type is a concern. He's built like Jake Plummer - very narrow. And that could be a problem...
Am I the only dumbo that didn't figure this out.
Thanks man!!!
No vet crazy $ and picks for me. We have to rebuild the OL (AGAIN) no matter who we get. Whats the best way to do that? with our draft picks.
1-Go to the draft. Can we get any picks for DJ ? Darnold got a 2, 4 and 6. If the new GM :-) wants to go in a different direction, if we can get picks for jones so we can continue to build the OL and DL in the draft with 5 picks in the top 79, and have to use a first rounder or later first rounder for QB, I like Pickett from Pitt. I have watched him play a few times and a bunch of highlight stuff on him and he can do it all. He is athletic, throws a good ball and has a strong enough arm. Malik is a super unreal athlete who has a gun . Liberty competition is the concern but he has a higher ceiling for sure. The Pundits "no QBs in this draft' is noise. WHEN have they been right? Who has been right? Darnold, Rosen...were supposed to be can't miss studs. Yup.
2-go with a minshew type to compete with DJ for the starting spot while we rebuild. Lower risk and lower upside.
Nobody can excel with this OL so that is job #1 in the first 5 picks including 1 or 2 pass rushers or ILBs.
Lots of moving parts. But the GM may want to start over with his tools and "groceries"
Like I said, I need to see how the market plays out with the current NFL starters. There are SO many potential layers out there. The Watson Sweepstakes should be a no-brainer, but Mara won't touch that. Huge blowback factor.
I'd certainly kick the tires on a Wilson acquisition and dial up the Raiders if they want to part ways with Carr. I really like Carr.
Isn't that forcing picks?
No and there is no comparison. QBs either work or they don't. With oline there is a wide range of acceptable play. Oline does not have to be franchise/Pro Bowl Level to be a good player.
If a Tannehill type is a mid-range QB (Say 12-18 range NFL QB), you would be looking to move on from him. But an OT that is a midrange OT is a keeper.
I know what Rosen and Darnold fetched, but I don't think DJ would get near as much as either of those guys got...but I don't know for sure.
I am curious though.
Like I said, I need to see how the market plays out with the current NFL starters. There are SO many potential layers out there. The Watson Sweepstakes should be a no-brainer, but Mara won't touch that. Huge blowback factor.
I'd certainly kick the tires on a Wilson acquisition and dial up the Raiders if they want to part ways with Carr. I really like Carr.
Wilson is tough because how much of his struggles are the injury, how much are the crap around him, and how much is age?
Watson is clearly the best of this group, but I wouldn't touch that.
I know what Rosen and Darnold fetched, but I don't think DJ would get near as much as either of those guys got...but I don't know for sure.
I am curious though.
Jones is a better QB than those two, why wouldn't they get a decent return?
If they could trade him (and Barkley) the should.
Give Jones a better line and he'd be decent, not great, but decent.
I know what Rosen and Darnold fetched, but I don't think DJ would get near as much as either of those guys got...but I don't know for sure.
I am curious though.
I'm sticking with the Darnold comp - if the Jets can grab a second for Darnold, that should be within our expectations for Jones. Darnold is one of the few QBs who I actually think Jones is better than...
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In comment 15472381 Producer said:
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In comment 15472371 5BowlsSoon said:
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Who the Big anti-Jones guys are promoting and I will keep a record of this and follow that person next year.
Bw
Terps
Debaser
Other big hate Jones guys…..let us know who is so great that you are coveting?
and that would prove absolutely nothing. Jones would still be an awful QB and not worth a half a decade of patience.
No, it would prove something….it would prove all you loud mouths don’t know anything except to bitch moan and complain.
For instance, are these Jones Haters prepared to hate on Trevor Lawrence? Why not? Look at his numbers….
The reason they won’t hate on him is because they are willing to give him more time for Jax to surround him with better talent. But these Jones haters made up their mind very early in Jones career. Some after one season, some after the second season. They don’t care about his surrounding talent….and none of them want him to succeed because it would make them look stupid.
So yeah….I’m taking notes on the Jones haters to see who they want to be our QB next year so I can keep reminding them how their guy is doing. But I suppose few if any of those guys will want to go on record….they are more critics than fans. You only hear from them when something is going poorly.
So Producer, who do you want to qb our boys next year?
Like what ? I am not a GM. But let's face it around here it is like the emperor is not wearing any clothes. Jones was a WTF pick. 3 years later not much has changed except the excuses ... weapons, Garrett, not it is oline.
lol if you seriously are manning multiple handles to talk giants football you've got some issues.
when Darnold left the Jets I think teams really used their draft grades as a measure on what to give up for him and I think league execs (generally speaking) were higher on Darnold when he was drafted than Jones.
I think NFL execs made the same kinds of excuses for Darnold as I see here on BBI with Jones except he doesn't have the same high draft marks.
lol if you seriously are manning multiple handles to talk giants football you've got some issues.
I am not. I just replied to the wrong post.
I’d like the Giants to sign Marcus Mariota. At a minimum he ups the competition and he’s still pretty young.
I love A/B tests at quarterback. If there is a true competition at QB and Jones doesn’t easily distinguish himself from Mariota, you have your answer.
If you cut Jones and select a QB you have a back-up who can spot start in a pinch.
Isn't that forcing picks?
Based on who is expected to be available when our picks currently are, linemen (both DL and OL) appear to be BPA available unless you want to talk about even more DB's
when Darnold left the Jets I think teams really used their draft grades as a measure on what to give up for him and I think league execs (generally speaking) were higher on Darnold when he was drafted than Jones.
I think NFL execs made the same kinds of excuses for Darnold as I see here on BBI with Jones except he doesn't have the same high draft marks.
Darnold is better. He has a better arm ; can make a broader range of throw and is still mobile. Cam Newton just like I siad is going to throw a bunch of picks. It is hard to play well on a team that has a bad oline and is talent deficient. I think the Panthers are about what the Giants are with better coaching. Bad teams can make good QBs look bad. That is not to say Jones is a good QB or that we should wait around see what he can do.
I do not want Tyrod Taylor in here and go 8-9.....that to me would be the ultimate bore fest.
when Darnold left the Jets I think teams really used their draft grades as a measure on what to give up for him and I think league execs (generally speaking) were higher on Darnold when he was drafted than Jones.
I think NFL execs made the same kinds of excuses for Darnold as I see here on BBI with Jones except he doesn't have the same high draft marks.
Darnold actually sucks and I never, ever saw it in him. Jones at least teases competent and I think he is competent with a good line. I often wonder how he would do with Dallas, for example - a good line and a couple of really good RBs.
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In comment 15472500 Go Terps said:
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then they say the picks have to be used on the lines.
Isn't that forcing picks?
So Terps, who do you want to qb the Giants next year? I haven’t seen your answer yet. Is this question above your pay grade? I know this question is asking you for your input, not your criticism, which is not what you usually do.
Is this serious? Didn't I just post this info above?
Okay I see your answer and have copied it for future use. Let’s see how the college qbs you prefer over Jones do next year. Thanks for playing.
[quote] In comment 15472866 dancing blue bear said:
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In comment 15472784 Section331 said:
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In comment 15472734 Rick in Dallas said:
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I think from Debaser comments his QB is Glennon already on the team.
Not sure about Producer.BW seems to like Pickett if we draft a QB in this upcoming draft.
Producer and Debaser are the same person. He mistakenly (I assume) answered a post intended for Producer as Debaser on this very thread.
That totally makes sense! I have often wondered
This is true.
But I'm surprised you couldn't pick up on it since you have two dupe handles yourself (broadbandz and chiro56). [/quote
I admire your ability to be wrong so often, and yet unaffected and undeterred
If the Giants cut Jones after the end of this season there’s no change positive or negative to his cap hit.
The best cap outcome is to trade Jones before his roster bonus is due (presumably the first day of the league year) and the Giants would save about 4M.
It's called reading. It usually works best left to right...
Lol. I guess sometimes if you don’t his “show all” you probably won’t see all the posts. I think I did that here. Okay, I now see your answer….you like Watson and apparently don’t seem to care about his possible transgressions. And you like Carr.
Just curious….How would the Giants pay Watson’s salary and stay within the cap? We are already almost maxed out for 2022.
I also see you named about 4 college kids you like…are you saying we should take one of them in round one if we don’t pick up Watson, Wilson, or Carr?
would like to see us get him if we can, continue to build the O LIne, D Line... and if we need a vet to hold the fort or for veteran back up presence, how about Andy Dalton?
this assumes the team has seen enough of Jones.
I doubt that the Giants could stomach the snickering if they trade the 6th pick in the draft for a 6th round pick but IMO a smart team and hopefully a new GM would do it.
The ONLY reason I advocated to keep him around was the cap hit. With that gone I'll drive him to the airport and wish him well.
As for the Liberty QB, that seems like a hell of a risk to me. Either way, you are going to get people saying, "I told you I was right about him!"
Jones has an interesting contract, I sadly went down the rabbit hole a few months ago to confirm he’s got a roster bonus (Spotrac says he does, but I confirmed that independently because they are often wrong).
With the number of picks and the tight cap space in 2022, the best outcome in my view would be trading for a 2023 2nd or 3rd round pick.
I think you can acquire a guy like Mariota for 2M and come out in the black.
And also it is not too much to ask to get a couple of lineman and get another qb too?
As for the Liberty QB, that seems like a hell of a risk to me. Either way, you are going to get people saying, "I told you I was right about him!"
Corral, if not for the weak QB crop this year, would be seen as a Top 15-20 player at best and that is only because he plays QB. There are things I like about his game. I like his accuracy and his situational awareness. That being said, I am not sure he has the arm strength if you have a Bruce Arians or Jon Gruden scheme of forcing the ball deep downfield. He appears to be more of the ideal Pat Shurmur QB who has tremendous accuracuy in short/intermediate game. Also, he is fairly slightly built and I do not see a body-type that lends itself to much additional muscle. That could be an issue regarding durability at NFL level, especially if a team wants to take advantage of his athleticism, although he has been healthy the last 2 years at Ole Miss. I have also seen questions about his preparation skills earlier in his college career. Perhaps Lane Kiffin changed that, but it requires investigation.
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The ONLY reason I advocated to keep him around was the cap hit. With that gone I'll drive him to the airport and wish him well.
Jones has an interesting contract, I sadly went down the rabbit hole a few months ago to confirm he’s got a roster bonus (Spotrac says he does, but I confirmed that independently because they are often wrong).
With the number of picks and the tight cap space in 2022, the best outcome in my view would be trading for a 2023 2nd or 3rd round pick.
I think you can acquire a guy like Mariota for 2M and come out in the black.
Why would any QB expecting to be a starter here sign for $2M? I guess if they trade Jones after FA signing that would be one thing, but is a team going to agree to a deal conditional on us signing another QB when they could just sign that QB themself if he is better than Jones? You risk a team reneging knowing we have to trade Jones.
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In comment 15472969 arniefez said:
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The ONLY reason I advocated to keep him around was the cap hit. With that gone I'll drive him to the airport and wish him well.
Jones has an interesting contract, I sadly went down the rabbit hole a few months ago to confirm he’s got a roster bonus (Spotrac says he does, but I confirmed that independently because they are often wrong).
With the number of picks and the tight cap space in 2022, the best outcome in my view would be trading for a 2023 2nd or 3rd round pick.
I think you can acquire a guy like Mariota for 2M and come out in the black.
Why would any QB expecting to be a starter here sign for $2M? I guess if they trade Jones after FA signing that would be one thing, but is a team going to agree to a deal conditional on us signing another QB when they could just sign that QB themself if he is better than Jones? You risk a team reneging knowing we have to trade Jones.
A Free Agent addition wouldn't give you much more than Jones so players like Mariota, Minshew, and Trubisky would most likely just create a QB controversy unless of course, you trade Jones and draft one in an attempt to hedge your bet.
An alternative could be a trade. Watson seems unlikely for NYG unless all charges are dropped against him. Wilson, from what I hear is a fantasy. The realistic trade target would be Jimmy G who wouldn't cost near as much and would give the Giants a vet to start while the young QB develops.
I don't think the Jury is out on Jones quite yet but you're getting closer to the verdict.. a lot will depend on if ownership decides to keep Judge. If they get rid of Judge I don't see any new GM/HC combo hitching their wagon to Jones.
If the Giants cut Jones after the end of this season there’s no change positive or negative to his cap hit.
The best cap outcome is to trade Jones before his roster bonus is due (presumably the first day of the league year) and the Giants would save about 4M.
So there isn't a financial advantage to be had for making what would likely be a lateral move at the position on another fringe vet starter. I can understand wanting to get another prospect in the pipeline ASAP but he's a perfectly fine 1 year veteran bridge guy from a cost standpoint.
Jackson is Willis' upside comparison and basically all of the elements that allowed Jackson to be successful then until now are not in place here.
We may never see Willis' upside in our current situation, so all that's left is downside risk.
We should build the lines first.
And of course we need a front office and a coaching staff that's in sync with that front office. Just not a good situation until we see some certainty in those areas. Keeping Judge would also be a negative.
As for the Liberty QB, that seems like a hell of a risk to me. Either way, you are going to get people saying, "I told you I was right about him!"
There is a lot more content on this thread than just Corral and Willis.
Willis is no more of a risk than Jones. Our GM took him based on his Senior Bowl practices. And Willis is more physically gifted than Jones.
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The 8.3M in guarantees on Jones are a sunk cost, there’s no new money that accelerates if he’s cut.
If the Giants cut Jones after the end of this season there’s no change positive or negative to his cap hit.
The best cap outcome is to trade Jones before his roster bonus is due (presumably the first day of the league year) and the Giants would save about 4M.
So there isn't a financial advantage to be had for making what would likely be a lateral move at the position on another fringe vet starter. I can understand wanting to get another prospect in the pipeline ASAP but he's a perfectly fine 1 year veteran bridge guy from a cost standpoint.
The advantage of trading Jones is twofold even if you remove any cap savings:
1. You get something for him in trade
2. You eliminate the possibility that Mara pays him an extension
A Free Agent addition wouldn't give you much more than Jones so players like Mariota, Minshew, and Trubisky would most likely just create a QB controversy unless of course, you trade Jones and draft one in an attempt to hedge your bet.
An alternative could be a trade. Watson seems unlikely for NYG unless all charges are dropped against him. Wilson, from what I hear is a fantasy. The realistic trade target would be Jimmy G who wouldn't cost near as much and would give the Giants a vet to start while the young QB develops.
I don't think the Jury is out on Jones quite yet but you're getting closer to the verdict.. a lot will depend on if ownership decides to keep Judge. If they get rid of Judge I don't see any new GM/HC combo hitching their wagon to Jones.
Kenny Pickett is not Joe Burrow. Pickett, for 4 seasons, failed to put up numbers even comparable to what Burrow put up in his first season at LSU after not really having meaningful game reps for YEARS prior to that season. Burrow's tremendous year at LSU was his second year at LSU. Pickett has had a great year this year, but I am skeptical. Did he finally realize something after 2020 season that has now been corrected? If so, that would indicate that 2021 is a better indicator of things to come. On the other hand, is his success this year attributed to the fact that he is basically playing some of the same teams for the 5th time whereas his opponents are 1st time starters? If that is the case, that means his first 4 years posting numbers that likely would get him drafted Late Day 3 if at all is a more accurate measure of his future.
My eyes and gut tell me the upside of Corral, Willis, and Howell don't warrant a high pick.
I'm leaning toward stopgap vet + maybe a developmental project like the Tennessee kid later in the draft. Draft offensive line and defense heavily.
Lol. I guess sometimes if you don’t his “show all” you probably won’t see all the posts. I think I did that here. Okay, I now see your answer….you like Watson and apparently don’t seem to care about his possible transgressions. And you like Carr.
Just curious….How would the Giants pay Watson’s salary and stay within the cap? We are already almost maxed out for 2022.
I also see you named about 4 college kids you like…are you saying we should take one of them in round one if we don’t pick up Watson, Wilson, or Carr?
I don't think it would be that much of a challenge to crowbar Watson's salary under the cap. A few of us have done that exercise and we could renegotiate the out years. But it's an exercise in futility because Mara will kill any chance of that deal.
I'm not sure where I would take these college QBs. From a physical talent standpoint, Willis and Ridder are first round talents. But there are reasonable counter points to say they are second day prospects. I just need to see more...
Pickett is the most polished - to me - as a thrower. And I think that, along, with this solid athleticism, puts him squarely in the first round.
I have no interest in speculating on what our options could be in April, no idea where we are drafting and I personally don't have a handle on the QB class. Ideally you do what the Jets do with Darnold. Hopefully that option is on the table.
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In comment 15472959 christian said:
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The 8.3M in guarantees on Jones are a sunk cost, there’s no new money that accelerates if he’s cut.
If the Giants cut Jones after the end of this season there’s no change positive or negative to his cap hit.
The best cap outcome is to trade Jones before his roster bonus is due (presumably the first day of the league year) and the Giants would save about 4M.
So there isn't a financial advantage to be had for making what would likely be a lateral move at the position on another fringe vet starter. I can understand wanting to get another prospect in the pipeline ASAP but he's a perfectly fine 1 year veteran bridge guy from a cost standpoint.
The advantage of trading Jones is twofold even if you remove any cap savings:
1. You get something for him in trade
2. You eliminate the possibility that Mara pays him an extension
If DG is gone and replaced by someone from the outside, that is the last person with the clout to push for signing a player that was also involved in drafting of Jones. Mara does not give a sh*t about DG's legacy if Judge and the new GM are both saying they don't want Jones signed to an extension. By your logic we should never have anyone on the roster who is not planning on retiring because Mara may pay for an extension.
The advantage of trading Jones is twofold even if you remove any cap savings:
1. You get something for him in trade
2. You eliminate the possibility that Mara pays him an extension
I would prefer to renegotiate his contract and keep him as our #2 QB at a rate commensurate with that role.
Bank as much cap as possible. If one of them hits great. Do the same thing next year until you find someone.
If that doesn't work and you have an OL and DL capable of keeping you a decent team with mediocre to bad QB play. Trade a bounty of picks for a proven veteran or a top of draft QB you are highly confident in.
This isn't rocket science but the Giants would have you believe it is and also that they are just unlucky rocket scientists.
I don't see it in Pickett at all. I don't see more than average arm strength and athleticism. He looks like an NFL backup to me.
My eyes and gut tell me the upside of Corral, Willis, and Howell don't warrant a high pick.
I'm leaning toward stopgap vet + maybe a developmental project like the Tennessee kid later in the draft. Draft offensive line and defense heavily.
Howell is the wildcard. He was great his first two years because UNC had more talent around him. But four of those players - both WRs and both RBs - got drafted. And their OL has gone an overhaul. So he's been under a lot of pressure this year. Howell he is a lot like Corral - tough, gritty and a plus arm, but a better, more durable body. But I'm down on his decision making this year and can't get him back into round one.
Hendon Hooker is absolutely an interesting later round prospect.
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These preseason QB rankings get shuffled every year come draft time because NFL projection is very different from college production.
My eyes and gut tell me the upside of Corral, Willis, and Howell don't warrant a high pick.
I'm leaning toward stopgap vet + maybe a developmental project like the Tennessee kid later in the draft. Draft offensive line and defense heavily.
Howell is the wildcard. He was great his first two years because UNC had more talent around him. But four of those players - both WRs and both RBs - got drafted. And their OL has gone an overhaul. So he's been under a lot of pressure this year. Howell he is a lot like Corral - tough, gritty and a plus arm, but a better, more durable body. But I'm down on his decision making this year and can't get him back into round one.
Hendon Hooker is absolutely an interesting later round prospect.
If we are talking about later round guys, Kaleb Eleby of Western Michigan is one who interests me if he declares.
Kenny Pickett - ( New Window )
If we are talking about later round guys, Kaleb Eleby of Western Michigan is one who interests me if he declares.
Haven't seen him play. I have read about him.
For me, Jake Haener is the later round project that is interesting. Had a great year with Frez St. Just makes a ton of plays - a lot in the clutch - and he can sling it. I saw him against UCLA and he was out of his mind good.
Jackson is Willis' upside comparison and basically all of the elements that allowed Jackson to be successful then until now are not in place here.
We may never see Willis' upside in our current situation, so all that's left is downside risk.
We should build the lines first.
Bingo. Too many people think Lamar went out there by himself and succeeded. A lot went into his success and I don’t trust anyone currently connected to this organization to build a similar supporting cast for any of the young QBs in the draft, let alone Willis.
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In comment 15472702 Producer said:
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In comment 15472696 Walker Gillette said:
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In comment 15472692 AcidTest said:
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In comment 15472686 Walker Gillette said:
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can't hit the broad side of a barn, right?
No, they don't. This is where we are. People are actually advocating replacing Jones with Trubisky.
I know a few Bears fan from Chicago that are clients and they all think this is insane.
This tells you how much more rational the bears fanbase is than the fans here on BBI.
They think it's insane because they all feel Jones is far better than Trubisky!
And yet... Link - ( New Window )
These are people that watch the games not rely on looking at stats on a Monday.
This is why Gettleman should be fired already and we shouldn't do him the courtesy of waiting on retirement. He drafted Barkley at #2 and Jones at #6 back to back and still has a shitty OL. Our 2 huge draft investments, the biggest in years, were never fully supported or set up to succeed
The reason they won’t hate on him is because they are willing to give him more time for Jax to surround him with better talent. But these Jones haters made up their mind very early in Jones career. Some after one season, some after the second season. They don’t care about his surrounding talent….and none of them want him to succeed because it would make them look stupid.
So yeah….I’m taking notes on the Jones haters to see who they want to be our QB next year so I can keep reminding them how their guy is doing. But I suppose few if any of those guys will want to go on record….they are more critics than fans. You only hear from them when something is going poorly.
Is this Dave Gettle's nephew or are you just a couple cans short of six pack right there. Taking these forumsa a little personal huh?
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is a better QB than Darnold at this point...for sure...however...
when Darnold left the Jets I think teams really used their draft grades as a measure on what to give up for him and I think league execs (generally speaking) were higher on Darnold when he was drafted than Jones.
I think NFL execs made the same kinds of excuses for Darnold as I see here on BBI with Jones except he doesn't have the same high draft marks.
Darnold is better. He has a better arm ; can make a broader range of throw and is still mobile. Cam Newton just like I siad is going to throw a bunch of picks. It is hard to play well on a team that has a bad oline and is talent deficient. I think the Panthers are about what the Giants are with better coaching. Bad teams can make good QBs look bad. That is not to say Jones is a good QB or that we should wait around see what he can do.
Didn't we just see Darnold with a better roster around him lose to Jones? Jones is better than Darnold.
Now whether we'd get as much for Jones - I don't think we would. Darnold was seen as a high first round pick who you could roll the dice on and maybe turn into something. Jones is seen as an overdrafted guy from the beginning.
Darnold will get more because well he’s a better QB.
Take OL and DL in rd1
A. Punting next year. The cap is awful. So bring in a vet (tyrod taylor) for an actual qb competition. In no way should he be the assumed starter. He 100% has not earned that.
B. Draft a qb if someone not named Dave Gettleman finds a guy who is a good value, whether it be round 1 or later. Fine with that guy competing with Jones and whoever plays better gets the job.
If Jones goes on a roll, the WRs come back healthy and Freddy lets him air it out this discussion will end. I liken Jones to Phil Simms, it took Phil a couple of years to come into his own.
Ive never seen so many pulled muscles in my life though
Who is the WRs coach? Are these guys not doing enough stretching before games and during them on the sidelines?
If Jones goes on a roll, the WRs come back healthy and Freddy lets him air it out this discussion will end. I liken Jones to Phil Simms, it took Phil a couple of years to come into his own.
Ive never seen so many pulled muscles in my life though
Who is the WRs coach? Are these guys not doing enough stretching before games and during them on the sidelines?
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There is a lot of buzz around Kenny Pickett. Jersey kid with moxie and toughness comparable to Joe Burrow. I've heard early predictions as the first QB off the board somewhere from 3-6. Again, it's early yet and I haven't had much time to watch so I'll lean on my guys still doing it for a living and suggest if NYG plans to move on from Jones and draft a new QB, then it should be for this kid.
A Free Agent addition wouldn't give you much more than Jones so players like Mariota, Minshew, and Trubisky would most likely just create a QB controversy unless of course, you trade Jones and draft one in an attempt to hedge your bet.
An alternative could be a trade. Watson seems unlikely for NYG unless all charges are dropped against him. Wilson, from what I hear is a fantasy. The realistic trade target would be Jimmy G who wouldn't cost near as much and would give the Giants a vet to start while the young QB develops.
I don't think the Jury is out on Jones quite yet but you're getting closer to the verdict.. a lot will depend on if ownership decides to keep Judge. If they get rid of Judge I don't see any new GM/HC combo hitching their wagon to Jones.
Kenny Pickett is not Joe Burrow. Pickett, for 4 seasons, failed to put up numbers even comparable to what Burrow put up in his first season at LSU after not really having meaningful game reps for YEARS prior to that season. Burrow's tremendous year at LSU was his second year at LSU. Pickett has had a great year this year, but I am skeptical. Did he finally realize something after 2020 season that has now been corrected? If so, that would indicate that 2021 is a better indicator of things to come. On the other hand, is his success this year attributed to the fact that he is basically playing some of the same teams for the 5th time whereas his opponents are 1st time starters? If that is the case, that means his first 4 years posting numbers that likely would get him drafted Late Day 3 if at all is a more accurate measure of his future.
Mike, you wasted your time there. I said, his moxie and toughness are being compared to Burrow.
It's far scarier going with a kid. History has proven this time and time again.
I don't know what to do because we don't know what this off-season will bring, but if Wilson and Rodgers are there to be had, you absolutely have to explore it if you're NYG.
Teams have fixed shit on the backs of a vet FA QB signing. It can be done. If the VET doesn't win here, fine, we should be used to it by now. We have a VET team with a lot of signed deals. Want to get the most out of Galladay or do you want to bitch and moan about his 3-50 stat line every week? Trust me, Wilson or Rodgers gets more out of him.
We need a savior. I don't care if we don't win a super bowl and are up against the cap every year. I want playoff appearances. More wins than losses once in a while? Maybe beat Dallas when shit matters just one time?
Or, draft a kid and try this shit all over again. Watch another HC get fired here UNLESS we step in shit and the kid is 100% ready made to deal with the most chaotic and difficult job in pro sports.
Or, take the easy way out and sign a HOF QB for draft picks.
I just don't think it's possible.
The cap is flexible, some say even invisible...but I don't know if it's THAT flexible.
This team is cash strapped for the next couple seasons and you can't backload deals for Rodgers or Wilson...
Watson is another story.
Take OL and DL in rd1
I was thinking the same the other day, after watching Ridder
play again. I have seen him a lot the last couple of years.
He's not the sexy pick, but he could develop into a good one.
I just don't think the Giants will move on from Jones yet,
as much as some would like that to happen.
And? The trend is good QBs are playing into their 40s.
The only variable I care about is finding a good QB.
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is that Pickett will be 24 years old before the start of the 2022 NFL season
And? The trend is good QBs are playing into their 40s.
The only variable I care about is finding a good QB.
The rules just make it easier to play the position.
Back to the main point- Pickett's age doesn't bother me. We need to find a good+ QB.
Run it with DJ next year and see where we stand at the end of the season with a new GM
I'd still much rather spend the capital to invest in the OL/DL/Front 7 first and build up the trenches. That way, no matter whether it's Jones or a QB to be named later, they have a solid OL in front of them.
Corral to me is head and shoulders better than the other two. He throws a great ball and has a flair for the big play.
Pickett is nice but still lacks the intangibles wanted in a quarterback.
Willis is very raw and why he has the movement in the pocket he is a boom or bust candidate
I'd still much rather spend the capital to invest in the OL/DL/Front 7 first and build up the trenches. That way, no matter whether it's Jones or a QB to be named later, they have a solid OL in front of them.
I hear you on upgrading the OL. I'm all in and have beat that drum endlessly until my hands have bled.
The quagmire, however, is we need - IMV - a better OL and a better QB. I'm fine trying to find the QB solution in either the draft or seeing viable options in the NFL market after the season ends.
My original post was addressing ryan's issue with Pickett's age. And that I don't think we should dwell on that but, instead, decide if he's a good QB for us.
My original post was addressing ryan's issue with Pickett's age. And that I don't think we should dwell on that but, instead, decide if he's a good QB for us.
It's hard to believe people are using Pickett's age against him, as if losing 2-3 years off the back end of his career would be a big deal if he was good enough to play for that long in the first place.
Good God. Daniel Jones is 24 now and he stinks, so maybe we don't need to worry about whether or not a potential replacement will still be here in the year 2037.
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My original post was addressing ryan's issue with Pickett's age. And that I don't think we should dwell on that but, instead, decide if he's a good QB for us.
It's hard to believe people are using Pickett's age against him, as if losing 2-3 years off the back end of his career would be a big deal if he was good enough to play for that long in the first place.
Good God. Daniel Jones is 24 now and he stinks, so maybe we don't need to worry about whether or not a potential replacement will still be here in the year 2037.
I do not think it is the 2-3 years off the back end of his career that worries teams, it is the fact that he is more physically mature than his opponents and why didn't he show any of this the last 4 years? If he was 24 but was relatively new to college QB position because he was playing minor league baseball and putting up these numbers I think that would be more attractive to teams.
Darnold will get more because well he’s a better QB.
Panthers defense is better than NYG's and when the Giants played them, they had no one who scares anyone. His starters were Darius Slayton and Dante Pettis.
Panthers DJ Moore and Robby Anderson are very underrated.
Because legitimate QB competition costs money and I'm a firm believer in the cliche that "if you have 2 QBs you don't have 1". I don't see the point in going 2X plus on our QB cap spend to end up in exactly the same place - a poor starting QB. The Bears did this with Trubisky/Foles and it was a giant waste of cap dollars.
Either cut bait completely and grab a new prospect or ride Jones as your cheap bridge QB. There shouldn't be a middle ground. There are zero savings, only additional cap spend, to having another washout veteran QB compete or replace Jones. Even bad starting QBs aren't cheap, anybody brought in will have incentives baked into that contract that will balloon that value to market floor rate of 10m set by Fitzpatrick and Tyrod this year. Trubisky may be making 2.5m this year but he was signed to be a backup, not compete with Josh Allen.