Prefer for the time being a Cap Friendly Free Agent as we rebuild this roster (Like a Minshew) and look at the draft in 2023 or 2024.
So you want to move on from jones for Gardner minshew??
This is why I hate cap talk.
Why is this so crazy? Do I view Minshew as a long term solution? Probably not. But, I think his play 2 years in Jax was enough to think he could fill a spot or challenge Jones. I don't get the hate for him.
Like I said, he may not be your franchise, but he also hasn't sucked.
RE: RE: At least GT is on record wanting Corral in the draft
I think from Debaser comments his QB is Glennon already on the team.
Not sure about Producer.BW seems to like Pickett if we draft a QB in this upcoming draft.
Producer and Debaser are the same person. He mistakenly (I assume) answered a post intended for Producer as Debaser on this very thread.
I didn't see that post earlier. Are you higher on Pcikett or Ridder at this point?
Are there any FAs that interest you as a possibility?
Just FYI - my tone was directed at 5Bowls, not you. He clearly has a problem reading.
I like what I have seen with Pickett this year. The light finally went on and he's had a season worthy of Heisman consideration. Pitt is two very close losses from being undefeated. I like his arm, accuracy and his subtle mobility. There are legit question marks - like why did it take so long for him to finally get it - but I would roll those dice.
I have been back and forth on Ridder. I really like his three dimensions physically - size, athleticism, and arm strength. I see a Marriota type but with a much better arm and savy.
And being the soul of that offense, he's the reason why Cincinnati is now a national power. So the growth has been on the upward slope over the course of his career. While he can be erratic, I think it's worth the stretch with those physical attributes. His game/style is the prototype in today's NFL.
Willis has it all. He's just in a big slump. Which is going to drag on his draft standing - I believe. So the question marks have creeped back in.
Corral is a real gamer with a terrific arm, grit, and toughness. I said it before Sy did, but his body type is a concern. He's built like Jake Plummer - very narrow. And that could be a problem...
RE: RE: RE: At least GT is on record wanting Corral in the draft
I think from Debaser comments his QB is Glennon already on the team.
Not sure about Producer.BW seems to like Pickett if we draft a QB in this upcoming draft.
Producer and Debaser are the same person. He mistakenly (I assume) answered a post intended for Producer as Debaser on this very thread.
That totally makes sense! I have often wondered
This is true.
But I'm surprised you couldn't pick up on it since you have two dupe handles yourself (broadbandz and chiro56).
would bring in Minshew and then draft Matt Corral if he drops in the draft to the late first round. Then you have a real QB competition and keep all three and build special packages for the players using their strengths.
I didn't see that post earlier. Are you higher on Pcikett or Ridder at this point?
Are there any FAs that interest you as a possibility?
Just FYI - my tone was directed at 5Bowls, not you. He clearly has a problem reading.
I like what I have seen with Pickett this year. The light finally went on and he's had a season worthy of Heisman consideration. Pitt is two very close losses from being undefeated. I like his arm, accuracy and his subtle mobility. There are legit question marks - like why did it take so long for him to finally get it - but I would roll those dice.
I have been back and forth on Ridder. I really like his three dimensions physically - size, athleticism, and arm strength. I see a Marriota type but with a much better arm and savy.
And being the soul of that offense, he's the reason why Cincinnati is now a national power. So the growth has been on the upward slope over the course of his career. While he can be erratic, I think it's worth the stretch with those physical attributes. His game/style is the prototype in today's NFL.
Willis has it all. He's just in a big slump. Which is going to drag on his draft standing - I believe. So the question marks have creeped back in.
Corral is a real gamer with a terrific arm, grit, and toughness. I said it before Sy did, but his body type is a concern. He's built like Jake Plummer - very narrow. And that could be a problem...
Thanks. Pickett is the most intriguing to me, but I admit to now knowing enough about Ridder at this point. Willis is the type of guy I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on if he hell to us in the 3rd or 4th round.
I didn't see that post earlier. Are you higher on Pcikett or Ridder at this point?
Are there any FAs that interest you as a possibility?
Just FYI - my tone was directed at 5Bowls, not you. He clearly has a problem reading.
I like what I have seen with Pickett this year. The light finally went on and he's had a season worthy of Heisman consideration. Pitt is two very close losses from being undefeated. I like his arm, accuracy and his subtle mobility. There are legit question marks - like why did it take so long for him to finally get it - but I would roll those dice.
I have been back and forth on Ridder. I really like his three dimensions physically - size, athleticism, and arm strength. I see a Marriota type but with a much better arm and savy.
And being the soul of that offense, he's the reason why Cincinnati is now a national power. So the growth has been on the upward slope over the course of his career. While he can be erratic, I think it's worth the stretch with those physical attributes. His game/style is the prototype in today's NFL.
Willis has it all. He's just in a big slump. Which is going to drag on his draft standing - I believe. So the question marks have creeped back in.
Corral is a real gamer with a terrific arm, grit, and toughness. I said it before Sy did, but his body type is a concern. He's built like Jake Plummer - very narrow. And that could be a problem...
No vet crazy $ and picks for me. We have to rebuild the OL (AGAIN) no matter who we get. Whats the best way to do that? with our draft picks.
1-Go to the draft. Can we get any picks for DJ ? Darnold got a 2, 4 and 6. If the new GM :-) wants to go in a different direction, if we can get picks for jones so we can continue to build the OL and DL in the draft with 5 picks in the top 79, and have to use a first rounder or later first rounder for QB, I like Pickett from Pitt. I have watched him play a few times and a bunch of highlight stuff on him and he can do it all. He is athletic, throws a good ball and has a strong enough arm. Malik is a super unreal athlete who has a gun . Liberty competition is the concern but he has a higher ceiling for sure. The Pundits "no QBs in this draft' is noise. WHEN have they been right? Who has been right? Darnold, Rosen...were supposed to be can't miss studs. Yup.
2-go with a minshew type to compete with DJ for the starting spot while we rebuild. Lower risk and lower upside.
Nobody can excel with this OL so that is job #1 in the first 5 picks including 1 or 2 pass rushers or ILBs.
Lots of moving parts. But the GM may want to start over with his tools and "groceries"
Despite the slump, I still see Willis going no later than the second round. The skill set is too dynamic.
Like I said, I need to see how the market plays out with the current NFL starters. There are SO many potential layers out there. The Watson Sweepstakes should be a no-brainer, but Mara won't touch that. Huge blowback factor.
I'd certainly kick the tires on a Wilson acquisition and dial up the Raiders if they want to part ways with Carr. I really like Carr.
then they say the picks have to be used on the lines.
Isn't that forcing picks?
No and there is no comparison. QBs either work or they don't. With oline there is a wide range of acceptable play. Oline does not have to be franchise/Pro Bowl Level to be a good player.
If a Tannehill type is a mid-range QB (Say 12-18 range NFL QB), you would be looking to move on from him. But an OT that is a midrange OT is a keeper.
Despite the slump, I still see Willis going no later than the second round. The skill set is too dynamic.
Like I said, I need to see how the market plays out with the current NFL starters. There are SO many potential layers out there. The Watson Sweepstakes should be a no-brainer, but Mara won't touch that. Huge blowback factor.
I'd certainly kick the tires on a Wilson acquisition and dial up the Raiders if they want to part ways with Carr. I really like Carr.
I didn't mention Carr because I don't expect him to be available. I would take him.
Wilson is tough because how much of his struggles are the injury, how much are the crap around him, and how much is age?
Watson is clearly the best of this group, but I wouldn't touch that.
but I do wonder what kind of trade value Daniel Jones has?
I know what Rosen and Darnold fetched, but I don't think DJ would get near as much as either of those guys got...but I don't know for sure.
I am curious though.
I'm sticking with the Darnold comp - if the Jets can grab a second for Darnold, that should be within our expectations for Jones. Darnold is one of the few QBs who I actually think Jones is better than...
Who the Big anti-Jones guys are promoting and I will keep a record of this and follow that person next year.
Bw
Terps
Debaser
Other big hate Jones guys…..let us know who is so great that you are coveting?
and that would prove absolutely nothing. Jones would still be an awful QB and not worth a half a decade of patience.
No, it would prove something….it would prove all you loud mouths don’t know anything except to bitch moan and complain.
For instance, are these Jones Haters prepared to hate on Trevor Lawrence? Why not? Look at his numbers….
The reason they won’t hate on him is because they are willing to give him more time for Jax to surround him with better talent. But these Jones haters made up their mind very early in Jones career. Some after one season, some after the second season. They don’t care about his surrounding talent….and none of them want him to succeed because it would make them look stupid.
So yeah….I’m taking notes on the Jones haters to see who they want to be our QB next year so I can keep reminding them how their guy is doing. But I suppose few if any of those guys will want to go on record….they are more critics than fans. You only hear from them when something is going poorly.
So Producer, who do you want to qb our boys next year?
Like what ? I am not a GM. But let's face it around here it is like the emperor is not wearing any clothes. Jones was a WTF pick. 3 years later not much has changed except the excuses ... weapons, Garrett, not it is oline.
lol if you seriously are manning multiple handles to talk giants football you've got some issues.
is a better QB than Darnold at this point...for sure...however...
when Darnold left the Jets I think teams really used their draft grades as a measure on what to give up for him and I think league execs (generally speaking) were higher on Darnold when he was drafted than Jones.
I think NFL execs made the same kinds of excuses for Darnold as I see here on BBI with Jones except he doesn't have the same high draft marks.
now you have a track record on these high QB draft picks that didn't pan out on their 1st team (because they stunk) and none of them really set the world on fire with their second team either....
then they say the picks have to be used on the lines.
Isn't that forcing picks?
Based on who is expected to be available when our picks currently are, linemen (both DL and OL) appear to be BPA available unless you want to talk about even more DB's
is a better QB than Darnold at this point...for sure...however...
when Darnold left the Jets I think teams really used their draft grades as a measure on what to give up for him and I think league execs (generally speaking) were higher on Darnold when he was drafted than Jones.
I think NFL execs made the same kinds of excuses for Darnold as I see here on BBI with Jones except he doesn't have the same high draft marks.
Darnold is better. He has a better arm ; can make a broader range of throw and is still mobile. Cam Newton just like I siad is going to throw a bunch of picks. It is hard to play well on a team that has a bad oline and is talent deficient. I think the Panthers are about what the Giants are with better coaching. Bad teams can make good QBs look bad. That is not to say Jones is a good QB or that we should wait around see what he can do.
is a better QB than Darnold at this point...for sure...however...
when Darnold left the Jets I think teams really used their draft grades as a measure on what to give up for him and I think league execs (generally speaking) were higher on Darnold when he was drafted than Jones.
I think NFL execs made the same kinds of excuses for Darnold as I see here on BBI with Jones except he doesn't have the same high draft marks.
Darnold actually sucks and I never, ever saw it in him. Jones at least teases competent and I think he is competent with a good line. I often wonder how he would do with Dallas, for example - a good line and a couple of really good RBs.
Again if the Giants cut Jones it costs them 8M cap dollars
then they say the picks have to be used on the lines.
Isn't that forcing picks?
So Terps, who do you want to qb the Giants next year? I haven’t seen your answer yet. Is this question above your pay grade? I know this question is asking you for your input, not your criticism, which is not what you usually do.
Is this serious? Didn't I just post this info above?
Okay I see your answer and have copied it for future use. Let’s see how the college qbs you prefer over Jones do next year. Thanks for playing.
RE: RE: RE: RE: At least GT is on record wanting Corral in the draft
In comment 15472873 Gatorade Dunk said:
[quote] In comment 15472866 dancing blue bear said:
Quote:
In comment 15472784 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 15472734 Rick in Dallas said:
Quote:
I think from Debaser comments his QB is Glennon already on the team.
Not sure about Producer.BW seems to like Pickett if we draft a QB in this upcoming draft.
Producer and Debaser are the same person. He mistakenly (I assume) answered a post intended for Producer as Debaser on this very thread.
That totally makes sense! I have often wondered
This is true.
But I'm surprised you couldn't pick up on it since you have two dupe handles yourself (broadbandz and chiro56). [/quote
I admire your ability to be wrong so often, and yet unaffected and undeterred
The 8.3M in guarantees on Jones are a sunk cost, there’s no new money that accelerates if he’s cut.
If the Giants cut Jones after the end of this season there’s no change positive or negative to his cap hit.
The best cap outcome is to trade Jones before his roster bonus is due (presumably the first day of the league year) and the Giants would save about 4M.
It's called reading. It usually works best left to right...
Lol. I guess sometimes if you don’t his “show all” you probably won’t see all the posts. I think I did that here. Okay, I now see your answer….you like Watson and apparently don’t seem to care about his possible transgressions. And you like Carr.
Just curious….How would the Giants pay Watson’s salary and stay within the cap? We are already almost maxed out for 2022.
I also see you named about 4 college kids you like…are you saying we should take one of them in round one if we don’t pick up Watson, Wilson, or Carr?
but I started watching Corral bc of BBI and he looks really good, albeit small.
would like to see us get him if we can, continue to build the O LIne, D Line... and if we need a vet to hold the fort or for veteran back up presence, how about Andy Dalton?
this assumes the team has seen enough of Jones.
My mistake rereading the thread I didn't check the cap implications
of a trade. Clearly that's the best option and makes the return immaterial. Even a trade for a 6th or 7th draft pick makes Jones cap neutral for 2022.
I doubt that the Giants could stomach the snickering if they trade the 6th pick in the draft for a 6th round pick but IMO a smart team and hopefully a new GM would do it.
The ONLY reason I advocated to keep him around was the cap hit. With that gone I'll drive him to the airport and wish him well.
The ONLY reason I advocated to keep him around was the cap hit. With that gone I'll drive him to the airport and wish him well.
Jones has an interesting contract, I sadly went down the rabbit hole a few months ago to confirm he’s got a roster bonus (Spotrac says he does, but I confirmed that independently because they are often wrong).
With the number of picks and the tight cap space in 2022, the best outcome in my view would be trading for a 2023 2nd or 3rd round pick.
I think you can acquire a guy like Mariota for 2M and come out in the black.
is that I need to pay more attention to Matt Corral.
As for the Liberty QB, that seems like a hell of a risk to me. Either way, you are going to get people saying, "I told you I was right about him!"
Corral, if not for the weak QB crop this year, would be seen as a Top 15-20 player at best and that is only because he plays QB. There are things I like about his game. I like his accuracy and his situational awareness. That being said, I am not sure he has the arm strength if you have a Bruce Arians or Jon Gruden scheme of forcing the ball deep downfield. He appears to be more of the ideal Pat Shurmur QB who has tremendous accuracuy in short/intermediate game. Also, he is fairly slightly built and I do not see a body-type that lends itself to much additional muscle. That could be an issue regarding durability at NFL level, especially if a team wants to take advantage of his athleticism, although he has been healthy the last 2 years at Ole Miss. I have also seen questions about his preparation skills earlier in his college career. Perhaps Lane Kiffin changed that, but it requires investigation.
RE: RE: My mistake rereading the thread I didn't check the cap implications
The ONLY reason I advocated to keep him around was the cap hit. With that gone I'll drive him to the airport and wish him well.
Jones has an interesting contract, I sadly went down the rabbit hole a few months ago to confirm he’s got a roster bonus (Spotrac says he does, but I confirmed that independently because they are often wrong).
With the number of picks and the tight cap space in 2022, the best outcome in my view would be trading for a 2023 2nd or 3rd round pick.
I think you can acquire a guy like Mariota for 2M and come out in the black.
Why would any QB expecting to be a starter here sign for $2M? I guess if they trade Jones after FA signing that would be one thing, but is a team going to agree to a deal conditional on us signing another QB when they could just sign that QB themself if he is better than Jones? You risk a team reneging knowing we have to trade Jones.
RE: RE: RE: My mistake rereading the thread I didn't check the cap implications
The ONLY reason I advocated to keep him around was the cap hit. With that gone I'll drive him to the airport and wish him well.
Jones has an interesting contract, I sadly went down the rabbit hole a few months ago to confirm he’s got a roster bonus (Spotrac says he does, but I confirmed that independently because they are often wrong).
With the number of picks and the tight cap space in 2022, the best outcome in my view would be trading for a 2023 2nd or 3rd round pick.
I think you can acquire a guy like Mariota for 2M and come out in the black.
Why would any QB expecting to be a starter here sign for $2M? I guess if they trade Jones after FA signing that would be one thing, but is a team going to agree to a deal conditional on us signing another QB when they could just sign that QB themself if he is better than Jones? You risk a team reneging knowing we have to trade Jones.
Trade before the draft and said place-holder may think that the Giants are drafting a QB (boy, I hope not with one of the 1st 2 picks)
There is a lot of buzz around Kenny Pickett. Jersey kid with moxie and toughness comparable to Joe Burrow. I've heard early predictions as the first QB off the board somewhere from 3-6. Again, it's early yet and I haven't had much time to watch so I'll lean on my guys still doing it for a living and suggest if NYG plans to move on from Jones and draft a new QB, then it should be for this kid.
A Free Agent addition wouldn't give you much more than Jones so players like Mariota, Minshew, and Trubisky would most likely just create a QB controversy unless of course, you trade Jones and draft one in an attempt to hedge your bet.
An alternative could be a trade. Watson seems unlikely for NYG unless all charges are dropped against him. Wilson, from what I hear is a fantasy. The realistic trade target would be Jimmy G who wouldn't cost near as much and would give the Giants a vet to start while the young QB develops.
I don't think the Jury is out on Jones quite yet but you're getting closer to the verdict.. a lot will depend on if ownership decides to keep Judge. If they get rid of Judge I don't see any new GM/HC combo hitching their wagon to Jones.
The 8.3M in guarantees on Jones are a sunk cost, there’s no new money that accelerates if he’s cut.
If the Giants cut Jones after the end of this season there’s no change positive or negative to his cap hit.
The best cap outcome is to trade Jones before his roster bonus is due (presumably the first day of the league year) and the Giants would save about 4M.
So there isn't a financial advantage to be had for making what would likely be a lateral move at the position on another fringe vet starter. I can understand wanting to get another prospect in the pipeline ASAP but he's a perfectly fine 1 year veteran bridge guy from a cost standpoint.
as a thought experiment: we don't have Baltimore's offensive line, running backs, receivers. We currently don't have a front office that can get us any of those things consistently. We don't have an offensive coordinator (maybe not even a head coach) or scheme that specializes in running quarterbacks like Baltimore does.
Jackson is Willis' upside comparison and basically all of the elements that allowed Jackson to be successful then until now are not in place here.
We may never see Willis' upside in our current situation, so all that's left is downside risk.
And of course we need a front office and a coaching staff that's in sync with that front office. Just not a good situation until we see some certainty in those areas. Keeping Judge would also be a negative.
The 8.3M in guarantees on Jones are a sunk cost, there’s no new money that accelerates if he’s cut.
If the Giants cut Jones after the end of this season there’s no change positive or negative to his cap hit.
The best cap outcome is to trade Jones before his roster bonus is due (presumably the first day of the league year) and the Giants would save about 4M.
So there isn't a financial advantage to be had for making what would likely be a lateral move at the position on another fringe vet starter. I can understand wanting to get another prospect in the pipeline ASAP but he's a perfectly fine 1 year veteran bridge guy from a cost standpoint.
The advantage of trading Jones is twofold even if you remove any cap savings:
1. You get something for him in trade
2. You eliminate the possibility that Mara pays him an extension
There is a lot of buzz around Kenny Pickett. Jersey kid with moxie and toughness comparable to Joe Burrow. I've heard early predictions as the first QB off the board somewhere from 3-6. Again, it's early yet and I haven't had much time to watch so I'll lean on my guys still doing it for a living and suggest if NYG plans to move on from Jones and draft a new QB, then it should be for this kid.
A Free Agent addition wouldn't give you much more than Jones so players like Mariota, Minshew, and Trubisky would most likely just create a QB controversy unless of course, you trade Jones and draft one in an attempt to hedge your bet.
An alternative could be a trade. Watson seems unlikely for NYG unless all charges are dropped against him. Wilson, from what I hear is a fantasy. The realistic trade target would be Jimmy G who wouldn't cost near as much and would give the Giants a vet to start while the young QB develops.
I don't think the Jury is out on Jones quite yet but you're getting closer to the verdict.. a lot will depend on if ownership decides to keep Judge. If they get rid of Judge I don't see any new GM/HC combo hitching their wagon to Jones.
Kenny Pickett is not Joe Burrow. Pickett, for 4 seasons, failed to put up numbers even comparable to what Burrow put up in his first season at LSU after not really having meaningful game reps for YEARS prior to that season. Burrow's tremendous year at LSU was his second year at LSU. Pickett has had a great year this year, but I am skeptical. Did he finally realize something after 2020 season that has now been corrected? If so, that would indicate that 2021 is a better indicator of things to come. On the other hand, is his success this year attributed to the fact that he is basically playing some of the same teams for the 5th time whereas his opponents are 1st time starters? If that is the case, that means his first 4 years posting numbers that likely would get him drafted Late Day 3 if at all is a more accurate measure of his future.
Lol. I guess sometimes if you don’t his “show all” you probably won’t see all the posts. I think I did that here. Okay, I now see your answer….you like Watson and apparently don’t seem to care about his possible transgressions. And you like Carr.
Just curious….How would the Giants pay Watson’s salary and stay within the cap? We are already almost maxed out for 2022.
I also see you named about 4 college kids you like…are you saying we should take one of them in round one if we don’t pick up Watson, Wilson, or Carr?
I don't think it would be that much of a challenge to crowbar Watson's salary under the cap. A few of us have done that exercise and we could renegotiate the out years. But it's an exercise in futility because Mara will kill any chance of that deal.
I'm not sure where I would take these college QBs. From a physical talent standpoint, Willis and Ridder are first round talents. But there are reasonable counter points to say they are second day prospects. I just need to see more...
Pickett is the most polished - to me - as a thrower. And I think that, along, with this solid athleticism, puts him squarely in the first round.
I agree that there are potentially other advantages though. It entirely rests on what our options are. I just don't see eating Jones' cap costs and then paying another journeyman for a year as being viable if that is our best option.
I have no interest in speculating on what our options could be in April, no idea where we are drafting and I personally don't have a handle on the QB class. Ideally you do what the Jets do with Darnold. Hopefully that option is on the table.
The 8.3M in guarantees on Jones are a sunk cost, there’s no new money that accelerates if he’s cut.
If the Giants cut Jones after the end of this season there’s no change positive or negative to his cap hit.
The best cap outcome is to trade Jones before his roster bonus is due (presumably the first day of the league year) and the Giants would save about 4M.
So there isn't a financial advantage to be had for making what would likely be a lateral move at the position on another fringe vet starter. I can understand wanting to get another prospect in the pipeline ASAP but he's a perfectly fine 1 year veteran bridge guy from a cost standpoint.
The advantage of trading Jones is twofold even if you remove any cap savings:
1. You get something for him in trade
2. You eliminate the possibility that Mara pays him an extension
If DG is gone and replaced by someone from the outside, that is the last person with the clout to push for signing a player that was also involved in drafting of Jones. Mara does not give a sh*t about DG's legacy if Judge and the new GM are both saying they don't want Jones signed to an extension. By your logic we should never have anyone on the roster who is not planning on retiring because Mara may pay for an extension.
Bring him back with no viable competition like they have the last two years is the worst possible solution to this problem.
Quote:
Prefer for the time being a Cap Friendly Free Agent as we rebuild this roster (Like a Minshew) and look at the draft in 2023 or 2024.
So you want to move on from jones for Gardner minshew??
This is why I hate cap talk.
Like I said, he may not be your franchise, but he also hasn't sucked.
Quote:
I think from Debaser comments his QB is Glennon already on the team.
Not sure about Producer.BW seems to like Pickett if we draft a QB in this upcoming draft.
Producer and Debaser are the same person. He mistakenly (I assume) answered a post intended for Producer as Debaser on this very thread.
That totally makes sense! I have often wondered
Are there any FAs that interest you as a possibility?
Just FYI - my tone was directed at 5Bowls, not you. He clearly has a problem reading.
I like what I have seen with Pickett this year. The light finally went on and he's had a season worthy of Heisman consideration. Pitt is two very close losses from being undefeated. I like his arm, accuracy and his subtle mobility. There are legit question marks - like why did it take so long for him to finally get it - but I would roll those dice.
I have been back and forth on Ridder. I really like his three dimensions physically - size, athleticism, and arm strength. I see a Marriota type but with a much better arm and savy.
And being the soul of that offense, he's the reason why Cincinnati is now a national power. So the growth has been on the upward slope over the course of his career. While he can be erratic, I think it's worth the stretch with those physical attributes. His game/style is the prototype in today's NFL.
Willis has it all. He's just in a big slump. Which is going to drag on his draft standing - I believe. So the question marks have creeped back in.
Corral is a real gamer with a terrific arm, grit, and toughness. I said it before Sy did, but his body type is a concern. He's built like Jake Plummer - very narrow. And that could be a problem...
Quote:
In comment 15472734 Rick in Dallas said:
Quote:
I think from Debaser comments his QB is Glennon already on the team.
Not sure about Producer.BW seems to like Pickett if we draft a QB in this upcoming draft.
Producer and Debaser are the same person. He mistakenly (I assume) answered a post intended for Producer as Debaser on this very thread.
That totally makes sense! I have often wondered
This is true.
But I'm surprised you couldn't pick up on it since you have two dupe handles yourself (broadbandz and chiro56).
Quote:
I didn't see that post earlier. Are you higher on Pcikett or Ridder at this point?
Are there any FAs that interest you as a possibility?
Just FYI - my tone was directed at 5Bowls, not you. He clearly has a problem reading.
I like what I have seen with Pickett this year. The light finally went on and he's had a season worthy of Heisman consideration. Pitt is two very close losses from being undefeated. I like his arm, accuracy and his subtle mobility. There are legit question marks - like why did it take so long for him to finally get it - but I would roll those dice.
I have been back and forth on Ridder. I really like his three dimensions physically - size, athleticism, and arm strength. I see a Marriota type but with a much better arm and savy.
And being the soul of that offense, he's the reason why Cincinnati is now a national power. So the growth has been on the upward slope over the course of his career. While he can be erratic, I think it's worth the stretch with those physical attributes. His game/style is the prototype in today's NFL.
Willis has it all. He's just in a big slump. Which is going to drag on his draft standing - I believe. So the question marks have creeped back in.
Corral is a real gamer with a terrific arm, grit, and toughness. I said it before Sy did, but his body type is a concern. He's built like Jake Plummer - very narrow. And that could be a problem...
Quote:
I didn't see that post earlier. Are you higher on Pcikett or Ridder at this point?
Are there any FAs that interest you as a possibility?
Just FYI - my tone was directed at 5Bowls, not you. He clearly has a problem reading.
I like what I have seen with Pickett this year. The light finally went on and he's had a season worthy of Heisman consideration. Pitt is two very close losses from being undefeated. I like his arm, accuracy and his subtle mobility. There are legit question marks - like why did it take so long for him to finally get it - but I would roll those dice.
I have been back and forth on Ridder. I really like his three dimensions physically - size, athleticism, and arm strength. I see a Marriota type but with a much better arm and savy.
And being the soul of that offense, he's the reason why Cincinnati is now a national power. So the growth has been on the upward slope over the course of his career. While he can be erratic, I think it's worth the stretch with those physical attributes. His game/style is the prototype in today's NFL.
Willis has it all. He's just in a big slump. Which is going to drag on his draft standing - I believe. So the question marks have creeped back in.
Corral is a real gamer with a terrific arm, grit, and toughness. I said it before Sy did, but his body type is a concern. He's built like Jake Plummer - very narrow. And that could be a problem...
Am I the only dumbo that didn't figure this out.
Thanks man!!!
No vet crazy $ and picks for me. We have to rebuild the OL (AGAIN) no matter who we get. Whats the best way to do that? with our draft picks.
1-Go to the draft. Can we get any picks for DJ ? Darnold got a 2, 4 and 6. If the new GM :-) wants to go in a different direction, if we can get picks for jones so we can continue to build the OL and DL in the draft with 5 picks in the top 79, and have to use a first rounder or later first rounder for QB, I like Pickett from Pitt. I have watched him play a few times and a bunch of highlight stuff on him and he can do it all. He is athletic, throws a good ball and has a strong enough arm. Malik is a super unreal athlete who has a gun . Liberty competition is the concern but he has a higher ceiling for sure. The Pundits "no QBs in this draft' is noise. WHEN have they been right? Who has been right? Darnold, Rosen...were supposed to be can't miss studs. Yup.
2-go with a minshew type to compete with DJ for the starting spot while we rebuild. Lower risk and lower upside.
Nobody can excel with this OL so that is job #1 in the first 5 picks including 1 or 2 pass rushers or ILBs.
Lots of moving parts. But the GM may want to start over with his tools and "groceries"
Like I said, I need to see how the market plays out with the current NFL starters. There are SO many potential layers out there. The Watson Sweepstakes should be a no-brainer, but Mara won't touch that. Huge blowback factor.
I'd certainly kick the tires on a Wilson acquisition and dial up the Raiders if they want to part ways with Carr. I really like Carr.
Isn't that forcing picks?
No and there is no comparison. QBs either work or they don't. With oline there is a wide range of acceptable play. Oline does not have to be franchise/Pro Bowl Level to be a good player.
If a Tannehill type is a mid-range QB (Say 12-18 range NFL QB), you would be looking to move on from him. But an OT that is a midrange OT is a keeper.
I know what Rosen and Darnold fetched, but I don't think DJ would get near as much as either of those guys got...but I don't know for sure.
I am curious though.
Like I said, I need to see how the market plays out with the current NFL starters. There are SO many potential layers out there. The Watson Sweepstakes should be a no-brainer, but Mara won't touch that. Huge blowback factor.
I'd certainly kick the tires on a Wilson acquisition and dial up the Raiders if they want to part ways with Carr. I really like Carr.
Wilson is tough because how much of his struggles are the injury, how much are the crap around him, and how much is age?
Watson is clearly the best of this group, but I wouldn't touch that.
I know what Rosen and Darnold fetched, but I don't think DJ would get near as much as either of those guys got...but I don't know for sure.
I am curious though.
Jones is a better QB than those two, why wouldn't they get a decent return?
If they could trade him (and Barkley) the should.
Give Jones a better line and he'd be decent, not great, but decent.
I know what Rosen and Darnold fetched, but I don't think DJ would get near as much as either of those guys got...but I don't know for sure.
I am curious though.
I'm sticking with the Darnold comp - if the Jets can grab a second for Darnold, that should be within our expectations for Jones. Darnold is one of the few QBs who I actually think Jones is better than...
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In comment 15472381 Producer said:
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In comment 15472371 5BowlsSoon said:
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Who the Big anti-Jones guys are promoting and I will keep a record of this and follow that person next year.
Bw
Terps
Debaser
Other big hate Jones guys…..let us know who is so great that you are coveting?
and that would prove absolutely nothing. Jones would still be an awful QB and not worth a half a decade of patience.
No, it would prove something….it would prove all you loud mouths don’t know anything except to bitch moan and complain.
For instance, are these Jones Haters prepared to hate on Trevor Lawrence? Why not? Look at his numbers….
The reason they won’t hate on him is because they are willing to give him more time for Jax to surround him with better talent. But these Jones haters made up their mind very early in Jones career. Some after one season, some after the second season. They don’t care about his surrounding talent….and none of them want him to succeed because it would make them look stupid.
So yeah….I’m taking notes on the Jones haters to see who they want to be our QB next year so I can keep reminding them how their guy is doing. But I suppose few if any of those guys will want to go on record….they are more critics than fans. You only hear from them when something is going poorly.
So Producer, who do you want to qb our boys next year?
Like what ? I am not a GM. But let's face it around here it is like the emperor is not wearing any clothes. Jones was a WTF pick. 3 years later not much has changed except the excuses ... weapons, Garrett, not it is oline.
lol if you seriously are manning multiple handles to talk giants football you've got some issues.
when Darnold left the Jets I think teams really used their draft grades as a measure on what to give up for him and I think league execs (generally speaking) were higher on Darnold when he was drafted than Jones.
I think NFL execs made the same kinds of excuses for Darnold as I see here on BBI with Jones except he doesn't have the same high draft marks.
lol if you seriously are manning multiple handles to talk giants football you've got some issues.
I am not. I just replied to the wrong post.
I’d like the Giants to sign Marcus Mariota. At a minimum he ups the competition and he’s still pretty young.
I love A/B tests at quarterback. If there is a true competition at QB and Jones doesn’t easily distinguish himself from Mariota, you have your answer.
If you cut Jones and select a QB you have a back-up who can spot start in a pinch.
Isn't that forcing picks?
Based on who is expected to be available when our picks currently are, linemen (both DL and OL) appear to be BPA available unless you want to talk about even more DB's
when Darnold left the Jets I think teams really used their draft grades as a measure on what to give up for him and I think league execs (generally speaking) were higher on Darnold when he was drafted than Jones.
I think NFL execs made the same kinds of excuses for Darnold as I see here on BBI with Jones except he doesn't have the same high draft marks.
Darnold is better. He has a better arm ; can make a broader range of throw and is still mobile. Cam Newton just like I siad is going to throw a bunch of picks. It is hard to play well on a team that has a bad oline and is talent deficient. I think the Panthers are about what the Giants are with better coaching. Bad teams can make good QBs look bad. That is not to say Jones is a good QB or that we should wait around see what he can do.
I do not want Tyrod Taylor in here and go 8-9.....that to me would be the ultimate bore fest.
when Darnold left the Jets I think teams really used their draft grades as a measure on what to give up for him and I think league execs (generally speaking) were higher on Darnold when he was drafted than Jones.
I think NFL execs made the same kinds of excuses for Darnold as I see here on BBI with Jones except he doesn't have the same high draft marks.
Darnold actually sucks and I never, ever saw it in him. Jones at least teases competent and I think he is competent with a good line. I often wonder how he would do with Dallas, for example - a good line and a couple of really good RBs.
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In comment 15472500 Go Terps said:
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then they say the picks have to be used on the lines.
Isn't that forcing picks?
So Terps, who do you want to qb the Giants next year? I haven’t seen your answer yet. Is this question above your pay grade? I know this question is asking you for your input, not your criticism, which is not what you usually do.
Is this serious? Didn't I just post this info above?
Okay I see your answer and have copied it for future use. Let’s see how the college qbs you prefer over Jones do next year. Thanks for playing.
[quote] In comment 15472866 dancing blue bear said:
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In comment 15472784 Section331 said:
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In comment 15472734 Rick in Dallas said:
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I think from Debaser comments his QB is Glennon already on the team.
Not sure about Producer.BW seems to like Pickett if we draft a QB in this upcoming draft.
Producer and Debaser are the same person. He mistakenly (I assume) answered a post intended for Producer as Debaser on this very thread.
That totally makes sense! I have often wondered
This is true.
But I'm surprised you couldn't pick up on it since you have two dupe handles yourself (broadbandz and chiro56). [/quote
I admire your ability to be wrong so often, and yet unaffected and undeterred
If the Giants cut Jones after the end of this season there’s no change positive or negative to his cap hit.
The best cap outcome is to trade Jones before his roster bonus is due (presumably the first day of the league year) and the Giants would save about 4M.
It's called reading. It usually works best left to right...
Lol. I guess sometimes if you don’t his “show all” you probably won’t see all the posts. I think I did that here. Okay, I now see your answer….you like Watson and apparently don’t seem to care about his possible transgressions. And you like Carr.
Just curious….How would the Giants pay Watson’s salary and stay within the cap? We are already almost maxed out for 2022.
I also see you named about 4 college kids you like…are you saying we should take one of them in round one if we don’t pick up Watson, Wilson, or Carr?
would like to see us get him if we can, continue to build the O LIne, D Line... and if we need a vet to hold the fort or for veteran back up presence, how about Andy Dalton?
this assumes the team has seen enough of Jones.
I doubt that the Giants could stomach the snickering if they trade the 6th pick in the draft for a 6th round pick but IMO a smart team and hopefully a new GM would do it.
The ONLY reason I advocated to keep him around was the cap hit. With that gone I'll drive him to the airport and wish him well.
As for the Liberty QB, that seems like a hell of a risk to me. Either way, you are going to get people saying, "I told you I was right about him!"
Jones has an interesting contract, I sadly went down the rabbit hole a few months ago to confirm he’s got a roster bonus (Spotrac says he does, but I confirmed that independently because they are often wrong).
With the number of picks and the tight cap space in 2022, the best outcome in my view would be trading for a 2023 2nd or 3rd round pick.
I think you can acquire a guy like Mariota for 2M and come out in the black.
And also it is not too much to ask to get a couple of lineman and get another qb too?
As for the Liberty QB, that seems like a hell of a risk to me. Either way, you are going to get people saying, "I told you I was right about him!"
Corral, if not for the weak QB crop this year, would be seen as a Top 15-20 player at best and that is only because he plays QB. There are things I like about his game. I like his accuracy and his situational awareness. That being said, I am not sure he has the arm strength if you have a Bruce Arians or Jon Gruden scheme of forcing the ball deep downfield. He appears to be more of the ideal Pat Shurmur QB who has tremendous accuracuy in short/intermediate game. Also, he is fairly slightly built and I do not see a body-type that lends itself to much additional muscle. That could be an issue regarding durability at NFL level, especially if a team wants to take advantage of his athleticism, although he has been healthy the last 2 years at Ole Miss. I have also seen questions about his preparation skills earlier in his college career. Perhaps Lane Kiffin changed that, but it requires investigation.
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The ONLY reason I advocated to keep him around was the cap hit. With that gone I'll drive him to the airport and wish him well.
Jones has an interesting contract, I sadly went down the rabbit hole a few months ago to confirm he’s got a roster bonus (Spotrac says he does, but I confirmed that independently because they are often wrong).
With the number of picks and the tight cap space in 2022, the best outcome in my view would be trading for a 2023 2nd or 3rd round pick.
I think you can acquire a guy like Mariota for 2M and come out in the black.
Why would any QB expecting to be a starter here sign for $2M? I guess if they trade Jones after FA signing that would be one thing, but is a team going to agree to a deal conditional on us signing another QB when they could just sign that QB themself if he is better than Jones? You risk a team reneging knowing we have to trade Jones.
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In comment 15472969 arniefez said:
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The ONLY reason I advocated to keep him around was the cap hit. With that gone I'll drive him to the airport and wish him well.
Jones has an interesting contract, I sadly went down the rabbit hole a few months ago to confirm he’s got a roster bonus (Spotrac says he does, but I confirmed that independently because they are often wrong).
With the number of picks and the tight cap space in 2022, the best outcome in my view would be trading for a 2023 2nd or 3rd round pick.
I think you can acquire a guy like Mariota for 2M and come out in the black.
Why would any QB expecting to be a starter here sign for $2M? I guess if they trade Jones after FA signing that would be one thing, but is a team going to agree to a deal conditional on us signing another QB when they could just sign that QB themself if he is better than Jones? You risk a team reneging knowing we have to trade Jones.
A Free Agent addition wouldn't give you much more than Jones so players like Mariota, Minshew, and Trubisky would most likely just create a QB controversy unless of course, you trade Jones and draft one in an attempt to hedge your bet.
An alternative could be a trade. Watson seems unlikely for NYG unless all charges are dropped against him. Wilson, from what I hear is a fantasy. The realistic trade target would be Jimmy G who wouldn't cost near as much and would give the Giants a vet to start while the young QB develops.
I don't think the Jury is out on Jones quite yet but you're getting closer to the verdict.. a lot will depend on if ownership decides to keep Judge. If they get rid of Judge I don't see any new GM/HC combo hitching their wagon to Jones.
If the Giants cut Jones after the end of this season there’s no change positive or negative to his cap hit.
The best cap outcome is to trade Jones before his roster bonus is due (presumably the first day of the league year) and the Giants would save about 4M.
So there isn't a financial advantage to be had for making what would likely be a lateral move at the position on another fringe vet starter. I can understand wanting to get another prospect in the pipeline ASAP but he's a perfectly fine 1 year veteran bridge guy from a cost standpoint.
Jackson is Willis' upside comparison and basically all of the elements that allowed Jackson to be successful then until now are not in place here.
We may never see Willis' upside in our current situation, so all that's left is downside risk.
We should build the lines first.
And of course we need a front office and a coaching staff that's in sync with that front office. Just not a good situation until we see some certainty in those areas. Keeping Judge would also be a negative.
As for the Liberty QB, that seems like a hell of a risk to me. Either way, you are going to get people saying, "I told you I was right about him!"
There is a lot more content on this thread than just Corral and Willis.
Willis is no more of a risk than Jones. Our GM took him based on his Senior Bowl practices. And Willis is more physically gifted than Jones.
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The 8.3M in guarantees on Jones are a sunk cost, there’s no new money that accelerates if he’s cut.
If the Giants cut Jones after the end of this season there’s no change positive or negative to his cap hit.
The best cap outcome is to trade Jones before his roster bonus is due (presumably the first day of the league year) and the Giants would save about 4M.
So there isn't a financial advantage to be had for making what would likely be a lateral move at the position on another fringe vet starter. I can understand wanting to get another prospect in the pipeline ASAP but he's a perfectly fine 1 year veteran bridge guy from a cost standpoint.
The advantage of trading Jones is twofold even if you remove any cap savings:
1. You get something for him in trade
2. You eliminate the possibility that Mara pays him an extension
A Free Agent addition wouldn't give you much more than Jones so players like Mariota, Minshew, and Trubisky would most likely just create a QB controversy unless of course, you trade Jones and draft one in an attempt to hedge your bet.
An alternative could be a trade. Watson seems unlikely for NYG unless all charges are dropped against him. Wilson, from what I hear is a fantasy. The realistic trade target would be Jimmy G who wouldn't cost near as much and would give the Giants a vet to start while the young QB develops.
I don't think the Jury is out on Jones quite yet but you're getting closer to the verdict.. a lot will depend on if ownership decides to keep Judge. If they get rid of Judge I don't see any new GM/HC combo hitching their wagon to Jones.
Kenny Pickett is not Joe Burrow. Pickett, for 4 seasons, failed to put up numbers even comparable to what Burrow put up in his first season at LSU after not really having meaningful game reps for YEARS prior to that season. Burrow's tremendous year at LSU was his second year at LSU. Pickett has had a great year this year, but I am skeptical. Did he finally realize something after 2020 season that has now been corrected? If so, that would indicate that 2021 is a better indicator of things to come. On the other hand, is his success this year attributed to the fact that he is basically playing some of the same teams for the 5th time whereas his opponents are 1st time starters? If that is the case, that means his first 4 years posting numbers that likely would get him drafted Late Day 3 if at all is a more accurate measure of his future.
My eyes and gut tell me the upside of Corral, Willis, and Howell don't warrant a high pick.
I'm leaning toward stopgap vet + maybe a developmental project like the Tennessee kid later in the draft. Draft offensive line and defense heavily.
Lol. I guess sometimes if you don’t his “show all” you probably won’t see all the posts. I think I did that here. Okay, I now see your answer….you like Watson and apparently don’t seem to care about his possible transgressions. And you like Carr.
Just curious….How would the Giants pay Watson’s salary and stay within the cap? We are already almost maxed out for 2022.
I also see you named about 4 college kids you like…are you saying we should take one of them in round one if we don’t pick up Watson, Wilson, or Carr?
I don't think it would be that much of a challenge to crowbar Watson's salary under the cap. A few of us have done that exercise and we could renegotiate the out years. But it's an exercise in futility because Mara will kill any chance of that deal.
I'm not sure where I would take these college QBs. From a physical talent standpoint, Willis and Ridder are first round talents. But there are reasonable counter points to say they are second day prospects. I just need to see more...
Pickett is the most polished - to me - as a thrower. And I think that, along, with this solid athleticism, puts him squarely in the first round.
I have no interest in speculating on what our options could be in April, no idea where we are drafting and I personally don't have a handle on the QB class. Ideally you do what the Jets do with Darnold. Hopefully that option is on the table.
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In comment 15472959 christian said:
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The 8.3M in guarantees on Jones are a sunk cost, there’s no new money that accelerates if he’s cut.
If the Giants cut Jones after the end of this season there’s no change positive or negative to his cap hit.
The best cap outcome is to trade Jones before his roster bonus is due (presumably the first day of the league year) and the Giants would save about 4M.
So there isn't a financial advantage to be had for making what would likely be a lateral move at the position on another fringe vet starter. I can understand wanting to get another prospect in the pipeline ASAP but he's a perfectly fine 1 year veteran bridge guy from a cost standpoint.
The advantage of trading Jones is twofold even if you remove any cap savings:
1. You get something for him in trade
2. You eliminate the possibility that Mara pays him an extension
If DG is gone and replaced by someone from the outside, that is the last person with the clout to push for signing a player that was also involved in drafting of Jones. Mara does not give a sh*t about DG's legacy if Judge and the new GM are both saying they don't want Jones signed to an extension. By your logic we should never have anyone on the roster who is not planning on retiring because Mara may pay for an extension.