of my problem with evaluating the edge guys in the upcoming draft is that I'm not sure what the Giants really want at that position.
It seems they ask the edge rushers to create a tight pocket (by almost always bull rushing )but don't give them the freedom to mix up pass rushing moves at the risk of getting washed out. It is weird.
of my problem with evaluating the edge guys in the upcoming draft is that I'm not sure what the Giants really want at that position.
It seems they ask the edge rushers to create a tight pocket (by almost always bull rushing )but don't give them the freedom to mix up pass rushing moves at the risk of getting washed out. It is weird.
Bull-rushing is all well and good, but it requires a certain amount of strength and leverage and it seems like either our guys aren't trying to rush to win against the tackle or they're not doing it right by not getting the right leverage. Take Strahan's game tape against Jon Runyan in 2000; he hits Runyan at chest-level when the latter is halfway through his arc, blows Runyan off his feet, strip-sacks McNabb, and Cedric Jones recovers.
As far as other pass-rush moves, Ojulari is mentioned as having a good rip move (in fact he was criticized for it being his only consistent move, but it's barely shown up. Michael Strahan vs the Eagles (see 9:17) - ( New Window )
a guy who always moves forward, attacking the pocket, sure.
But if you want a guy who can also drop into coverage?
This kind of gets back to what Sy'56 was alluding to... what do the Giants want to be on defense?
Right now having options would be nice. They need a guy to put his hand in the dirt and rush with power. To many of the guys we have and have been getting want to run around a block instead of rushing through the man.
Ive been all in on Hutchinson for some time now...
a guy who always moves forward, attacking the pocket, sure.
But if you want a guy who can also drop into coverage?
This kind of gets back to what Sy'56 was alluding to... what do the Giants want to be on defense?
I get exactly what Eric is saying here. The Giants play this weird sort of 3/4 hybrid but not the 3/4 the Steelers play or the 3/4 we used to play. They don't have the LB'ers playing the same way and we don't use our DL the same either. Truly I feel like we play a sort of let me out smart you defense and let me let you make a mistake over a long series of plays instead of let me dictate how this will go.
We can darft Hutchinson (which would be awesome) but if we use him like Ojulari his impact with be far less. if we use him like TJ Watt we can see major effects immediately!
I hate the way we play our scheme now as we end up wasting resources on a bunch of DT's who are asked to play sort of like DE's and sort of like NT's- thus we get next to nothing from them in the rush and we weaken them in the run game.
Go to a more standard alignment, move LW's to a true 5 tech DE, Lawrence to NT and Johnson to the other 5 Tech, give me 4 LB'ers, with 1 of them being more a hybrid- Peppers would be so much better in this role and then give me one TRUE outside rusher at LB and the other more able to move forward or backward.
We do need to figure out an identity. This amoeba like scheme leaves us without an identity and takes away from our ability to dictate to an offense.
I'm not sure what we want either. And I wonder if that might change under a new GM? But I would hope our staff is flexible enough to let a freakish talent do his thing.
Did you see around the 2 minute mark where he sheds a double team block to tackle the runner? Those are the kinds of plays our DE's and LB's used to make!
for OSU is Petit-Frere and a likely first round pick.
That’s actually Thayer Munford, no75, starting LG. #78 is NFT, he's playing right tackle in this series. NFT is starting LT but I think he was filling in for RT Dawand Jones and Munford who's starting left guard moved to LT. I don’t see #79 Dawand Jones, starting RT.
a guy who always moves forward, attacking the pocket, sure.
But if you want a guy who can also drop into coverage?
This kind of gets back to what Sy'56 was alluding to... what do the Giants want to be on defense?
This is what I was saying. Hutchinson does not move well in space which is why he’s a prototype 4-3 end. He’s not a true edge defender. In college he’s standing up but he’s moving forward 99 percent of the time. He basically plays the 5 tech which many disagree but it’s exactly what he is
for OSU is Petit-Frere and a likely first round pick.
That’s actually Thayer Munford, no75, starting LG. #78 is NFT, he's playing right tackle in this series. NFT is starting LT but I think he was filling in for RT Dawand Jones and Munford who's starting left guard moved to LT. I don’t see #79 Dawand Jones, starting RT.
Funnily enough, I did a mock draft this morning where I acquired both Hutchinson and Petit-Frere (via trade down).
Even on the final play, it was pocket contain rush. They WERE NOT going to let Hurts out of the pocket on passing plays.
Check out the Giants Edge Rushers yesterday. If nothing else, they are extremely well-coached. You can see in the way they are rushing, pocket-contain is their only priority.
Hutchinson looks like he is chirping at Mumford before the snap.
If Judge is really someone who is a 'don't tell me what they aren't good at, tell me what they are good at', then if the Giants are lucky enough to be in a position to get Hutchinson, they get him and they figure out a way to make it work. B/c the guy is a beast. Link - ( New Window )
of my problem with evaluating the edge guys in the upcoming draft is that I'm not sure what the Giants really want at that position.
It seems they ask the edge rushers to create a tight pocket (by almost always bull rushing )but don't give them the freedom to mix up pass rushing moves at the risk of getting washed out. It is weird.
The other big problem is that it gives the quarterback enough time to locate receivers.
the Ohio State game, Hutchinson doesn't move around like a LB. He looks like he has trouble changing direction in the open field and isn't very agile. (Don't jump on me here either, but he didn't really hustle on a lot of plays down the field).
I would have to watch more games. But in the OSU game, he clearly was giving the tackles problems with his inside move and that later set up some outside rushes. So he can do both.
In comment 15472706 Kevin(formerly Tiki4Six) said:
Quote:
To the 4-3. If they stay in a 3-4 then Hutchinson would not be a good fit there.
I would say yes to returning to a 4-3, but we'd have to get the right players. Right now we have a lot of plays running a 4-2 nickel where the "ends" are 250 lbs linebackers and constantly pitting strength against strength with offensive tackles 60+ lbs heavier. It isn't really working. With a guy like Hutchinson (and I've been holding out hope), it would make using our current scheme much easier... that is if we actually want to win pass rush reps.
The wild card in this is Ojulari; which way will he convert, 4-3 DE or OLB?
the Ohio State game, Hutchinson doesn't move around like a LB. He looks like he has trouble changing direction in the open field and isn't very agile. (Don't jump on me here either, but he didn't really hustle on a lot of plays down the field).
I would have to watch more games. But in the OSU game, he clearly was giving the tackles problems with his inside move and that later set up some outside rushes. So he can do both.
I'm a Michigan fan and I agree he's not a LB, using him in that way would be a mistake.
for OSU is Petit-Frere and a likely first round pick.
bw, maybe, but he also had some bad looks vs Ojabo (?), which I guess goes with the territory. How high a #1 is the question. I like most of the top guys '21 draft and OVT better.
from that game... Aidan Hutchinson (Michigan EDGE) vs Ohio State 2021 - ( New Window )
Wow, on balance, not a top 10 pick to my eyes, not much bend, looks pretty stiff, not especially athletic. Powerful on the bull rush, yes, but how often does that work against T's in the NFL, excepting Giants' tackles named Solder. I stick with my comment in the game threat Saturday when 'Nak said he's 'Bosa like': way over the top. He's the new shiny toy where the shine wears off pretty fast.
I'm not sure I see top-10 athleticism there. But I haven't really started looking at the draft and these guys closely yet.
The other potential issue is what I alluded to...does Hutchinson's potential role in Patrick Graham's defense justify the selection? I'm not sure I see it.
the Ohio State game, Hutchinson doesn't move around like a LB. He looks like he has trouble changing direction in the open field and isn't very agile. (Don't jump on me here either, but he didn't really hustle on a lot of plays down the field).
I would have to watch more games. But in the OSU game, he clearly was giving the tackles problems with his inside move and that later set up some outside rushes. So he can do both.
I saw at least one great hustle play downfield by him. He was rushing the QB and a screen was thrown on the opposite side and he was in on the tackle downfield.
His hustle definitely caught my eye on that play and I never noticed him not hustling after that. Seemed to be a high motor guy to me on Saturday.
I'm not sure I see top-10 athleticism there. But I haven't really started looking at the draft and these guys closely yet.
The other potential issue is what I alluded to...does Hutchinson's potential role in Patrick Graham's defense justify the selection? I'm not sure I see it.
What sort of edge rusher would fit Graham's scheme? If you're talking about the type who will go back into pass coverage the edges under Graham haven't been doing that; Ojulari apparently can per analyses I've been reading, but that isn't how the Giants have been using him. If you're looking for a guy who can win with power and leverage inside and outside, he looks to be the guy.
You can see Ohio State gameplanned to run away from him ( he doesn't have elite down the line speed), combined with three-step drops as on a good chunk of deeper drops their line just got overrun.
I think they want that...LOL
It seems they ask the edge rushers to create a tight pocket (by almost always bull rushing )but don't give them the freedom to mix up pass rushing moves at the risk of getting washed out. It is weird.
But if you want a guy who can also drop into coverage?
This kind of gets back to what Sy'56 was alluding to... what do the Giants want to be on defense?
Quote:
of my problem with evaluating the edge guys in the upcoming draft is that I'm not sure what the Giants really want at that position.
It seems they ask the edge rushers to create a tight pocket (by almost always bull rushing )but don't give them the freedom to mix up pass rushing moves at the risk of getting washed out. It is weird.
Bull-rushing is all well and good, but it requires a certain amount of strength and leverage and it seems like either our guys aren't trying to rush to win against the tackle or they're not doing it right by not getting the right leverage. Take Strahan's game tape against Jon Runyan in 2000; he hits Runyan at chest-level when the latter is halfway through his arc, blows Runyan off his feet, strip-sacks McNabb, and Cedric Jones recovers.
As far as other pass-rush moves, Ojulari is mentioned as having a good rip move (in fact he was criticized for it being his only consistent move, but it's barely shown up.
Michael Strahan vs the Eagles (see 9:17) - ( New Window )
Aidan Hutchinson (Michigan EDGE) vs Ohio State 2021 - ( New Window )
But if you want a guy who can also drop into coverage?
This kind of gets back to what Sy'56 was alluding to... what do the Giants want to be on defense?
Right now having options would be nice. They need a guy to put his hand in the dirt and rush with power. To many of the guys we have and have been getting want to run around a block instead of rushing through the man.
I also like Karlaftis - he has great hand technique but I see him as a 4-3 DE only.
I also like Karlaftis - he has great hand technique but I see him as a 4-3 DE only.
If we're in a position to get Hutchinson, he's my first choice, Karlaftis is second.
But if you want a guy who can also drop into coverage?
This kind of gets back to what Sy'56 was alluding to... what do the Giants want to be on defense?
I get exactly what Eric is saying here. The Giants play this weird sort of 3/4 hybrid but not the 3/4 the Steelers play or the 3/4 we used to play. They don't have the LB'ers playing the same way and we don't use our DL the same either. Truly I feel like we play a sort of let me out smart you defense and let me let you make a mistake over a long series of plays instead of let me dictate how this will go.
We can darft Hutchinson (which would be awesome) but if we use him like Ojulari his impact with be far less. if we use him like TJ Watt we can see major effects immediately!
I hate the way we play our scheme now as we end up wasting resources on a bunch of DT's who are asked to play sort of like DE's and sort of like NT's- thus we get next to nothing from them in the rush and we weaken them in the run game.
Go to a more standard alignment, move LW's to a true 5 tech DE, Lawrence to NT and Johnson to the other 5 Tech, give me 4 LB'ers, with 1 of them being more a hybrid- Peppers would be so much better in this role and then give me one TRUE outside rusher at LB and the other more able to move forward or backward.
We do need to figure out an identity. This amoeba like scheme leaves us without an identity and takes away from our ability to dictate to an offense.
Did you see around the 2 minute mark where he sheds a double team block to tackle the runner? Those are the kinds of plays our DE's and LB's used to make!
That’s actually Thayer Munford, no75, starting LG. #78 is NFT, he's playing right tackle in this series. NFT is starting LT but I think he was filling in for RT Dawand Jones and Munford who's starting left guard moved to LT. I don’t see #79 Dawand Jones, starting RT.
But if you want a guy who can also drop into coverage?
This kind of gets back to what Sy'56 was alluding to... what do the Giants want to be on defense?
This is what I was saying. Hutchinson does not move well in space which is why he’s a prototype 4-3 end. He’s not a true edge defender. In college he’s standing up but he’s moving forward 99 percent of the time. He basically plays the 5 tech which many disagree but it’s exactly what he is
Quote:
for OSU is Petit-Frere and a likely first round pick.
That’s actually Thayer Munford, no75, starting LG. #78 is NFT, he's playing right tackle in this series. NFT is starting LT but I think he was filling in for RT Dawand Jones and Munford who's starting left guard moved to LT. I don’t see #79 Dawand Jones, starting RT.
Funnily enough, I did a mock draft this morning where I acquired both Hutchinson and Petit-Frere (via trade down).
Even on the final play, it was pocket contain rush. They WERE NOT going to let Hurts out of the pocket on passing plays.
Check out the Giants Edge Rushers yesterday. If nothing else, they are extremely well-coached. You can see in the way they are rushing, pocket-contain is their only priority.
If Judge is really someone who is a 'don't tell me what they aren't good at, tell me what they are good at', then if the Giants are lucky enough to be in a position to get Hutchinson, they get him and they figure out a way to make it work. B/c the guy is a beast.
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
of my problem with evaluating the edge guys in the upcoming draft is that I'm not sure what the Giants really want at that position.
It seems they ask the edge rushers to create a tight pocket (by almost always bull rushing )but don't give them the freedom to mix up pass rushing moves at the risk of getting washed out. It is weird.
The other big problem is that it gives the quarterback enough time to locate receivers.
I would have to watch more games. But in the OSU game, he clearly was giving the tackles problems with his inside move and that later set up some outside rushes. So he can do both.
There are interesting Edge projects later in the draft. Like Nik Bontinno or Sam Williams.
So I am with you - hone in on the OLs. It's a very good crop.
I would say yes to returning to a 4-3, but we'd have to get the right players. Right now we have a lot of plays running a 4-2 nickel where the "ends" are 250 lbs linebackers and constantly pitting strength against strength with offensive tackles 60+ lbs heavier. It isn't really working. With a guy like Hutchinson (and I've been holding out hope), it would make using our current scheme much easier... that is if we actually want to win pass rush reps.
The wild card in this is Ojulari; which way will he convert, 4-3 DE or OLB?
I would have to watch more games. But in the OSU game, he clearly was giving the tackles problems with his inside move and that later set up some outside rushes. So he can do both.
I'm a Michigan fan and I agree he's not a LB, using him in that way would be a mistake.
The other potential issue is what I alluded to...does Hutchinson's potential role in Patrick Graham's defense justify the selection? I'm not sure I see it.
I would have to watch more games. But in the OSU game, he clearly was giving the tackles problems with his inside move and that later set up some outside rushes. So he can do both.
I saw at least one great hustle play downfield by him. He was rushing the QB and a screen was thrown on the opposite side and he was in on the tackle downfield.
His hustle definitely caught my eye on that play and I never noticed him not hustling after that. Seemed to be a high motor guy to me on Saturday.
But if you want a guy who can also drop into coverage?
This kind of gets back to what Sy'56 was alluding to... what do the Giants want to be on defense?
If they want an ER who can drop into coverage they need to fire Graham.
The other potential issue is what I alluded to...does Hutchinson's potential role in Patrick Graham's defense justify the selection? I'm not sure I see it.
What sort of edge rusher would fit Graham's scheme? If you're talking about the type who will go back into pass coverage the edges under Graham haven't been doing that; Ojulari apparently can per analyses I've been reading, but that isn't how the Giants have been using him. If you're looking for a guy who can win with power and leverage inside and outside, he looks to be the guy.
Quote:
right now, this looks like a really strong OL draft and I'm leaning towards using both picks on the OL.
There are interesting Edge projects later in the draft. Like Nik Bontinno or Sam Williams.
So I am with you - hone in on the OLs. It's a very good crop.
I might look into Williams, but Mara might not want him since he had a suspension on his record for sexual battery.
I realize there are no guarantees, but ... sign me up.