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Chiefs, Seahawks& Giants

Hilary : 11/30/2021 10:46 am
Chiefs with back - up O line scored 9 points in Super Bowl
Russel Wilson looked awful last night.
What do we expect of Daniel Jones behind this line?
The Giants need to use at least one of two first round picks and at least one of 3 round 2-3 picks on O line.

They are very foolish if they do not take a good look at Peart and Wilson before the draft. If neither of them can play 3-4 of first 5 picks need to be O line.
Dupe Thread  
Trainmaster : 11/30/2021 10:47 am : link
Suggest you delete one.
Drafting at the top for need  
JonC : 11/30/2021 10:48 am : link
got them into this situation.
two threads  
djm : 11/30/2021 10:50 am : link
every QB
djm : 10:49 am : link : reply
goes through stretches where their team doesn't score 28 PPG but Wilson and guys like Wilson don't stay down for too long. Even last night, yeah they scored under 20 but I wouldn't say Wilson played poorly. He led them down the field at the end didn't he?

Wilson will find his way back like he always does. He has a track record. The low scoring games show up but not as frequently as what we see from some of the lesser quality QBs.
Drafting for need  
Hilary : 11/30/2021 10:55 am : link
The Giants have been drafting for the wrong need.Last year they went all in on receivers Golliday Rudolph Toney. Football games for the most part are won by the Offensive line and front 7 on defense
RE: Drafting at the top for need  
jvm52106 : 11/30/2021 10:55 am : link
In comment 15474022 JonC said:
Quote:
got them into this situation.


I don't completely agree with that. We went after Barkley- 2018, where RB was not a TOP need and certainly the position itself doesn't warrant a 2nd pick in the draft.

2019 we ended up with 3 first round picks but two of them either had no impact (Baker) or can't really change the game based on their position without playmakers outside (Lawrence). The 3rd was the need pick and or reach pick in Jones..

To me, not seeing the bigger picture is where our drafts have failed. You can't keep filling "positions" without adding game changers somewhere or all you get is decent players who all need a stud player, loaded position group to make them all better. We draft a ton of supporting guys and they should have were either wasted (Barkley) because we didn't set the table for them or just have not done what was expected- Jones.
They picked heavily on need  
JonC : 11/30/2021 11:02 am : link
minus SB.
Much as I respect you JonC  
BillT : 11/30/2021 11:12 am : link
I really don't see that. In fact, you can make a case they didn't draft enough based on need. They took Barkley when the need was to trade down, accumulate picks and use those picks to draft heavily into both the OL and DL. The next year they gave away picks to move up when the there were eventual OL starters (See: the Rams picks) in the rounds they gave away. And then they drafted zero OLs. Then in 2021 they again ignored OL needs to draft WR, edge and DB and again drafted zero OLs. Given the team needed most everything in 2018 you can say they drafted for "need" but they really ignored the biggest need on the team.
You have to evaluate talent successfully  
Dnew15 : 11/30/2021 11:13 am : link
in order to draft BPA.

I don't think this front office is drafting based on need.

I think the organization is adrift. They don't know where they are going. They don't know who's good, who's a fit schematically (because they don't have a definitive one), they don't know who's a fit team identity-wise (because they don't seem to have one), they count on certain guys to develop and they don't, they count on certain FA to plug holes and they don't.

The only thing I think the Giants have nailed at this point is that they seem to be able to identify nice guys. This might be the nicest group of players I have ever seen play football.
.  
Danny Kanell : 11/30/2021 11:13 am : link
I think you could always make an argument that they picked for need simply because they always have so many needs.

I think the bigger problem is they didn't pick enough good players, simple as that.
If Jones  
ajr2456 : 11/30/2021 11:15 am : link
Performed like Wilson did last night every week we’d be in a playoff spot.
BillT  
JonC : 11/30/2021 11:19 am : link
There's a difference here between what you view as needs versus the Giants during those drafts. They were looking heavily at QB, LT, CB, DL, and those were the positions they went after, even cluster drafting and signing UFAs to get it done. The only premium pick outside that box was SB, and I think it's clear they talked themselves into him as the best player in the entire draft.

It turns out, many of their individual player evaluations were not very good. You could argue they should've invested more in the OL over other positions at certain intervals, but it's a slightly different debate than the point I'm making.
DK  
JonC : 11/30/2021 11:21 am : link
Eh, when you pick a RB instead of trading down to address more needs, and you trade multiple draft picks to move up for a CB with known character issues and a ton of roster holes, I think you just stink at what you do, including an emphasis on need drafting.
One thing I can we can agree on  
JonC : 11/30/2021 11:23 am : link
Dnew touched upon it, is there's no cohesive strategy and it's bearing out on the football field through four seasons of DG's tenure. And, they are flat out bad at evaluating their eventual targets.

Multiple wasted draft picks, poor college evals, and more of the same on the UFA front where their pro personnel evals have stunk, and they've paid beyond top open market dollars for players like KG, Adoree, Solder, etc.
Dang it JonC...  
Dnew15 : 11/30/2021 11:24 am : link
nice guys minus Baker.

Fair enought Jon.  
BillT : 11/30/2021 11:30 am : link
Thanks for the reply. But they identified the OL as a top need when DG came in. In two of his four years he drafted zero OL and in one other one. Now, they got Solder as a FA and Zeitler in a trade but it Solder was an obvious failure and Zietler was just average. Very frustrating approach to their biggest need.
Without a doubt  
JonC : 11/30/2021 11:33 am : link
I know they liked a few OL in some of those first rounds, but apparently not enough. A lot of pro personnel also prefer proven veterans instead of developing draft picks, which is a big factor here. Their player choices stunk, altho Zeitler is apparently playing ok with the Ravens. I think Thomas could work out at LT, but the other four spots are literally wide open up for grabs.
I expect Jones to continue to be the complete mediocrity  
Greg from LI : 11/30/2021 11:34 am : link
that he's been going back to high school
Another bad eval  
JonC : 11/30/2021 11:36 am : link
right out of the chute was sticking with Eli and trying to build one last run around him. Drafting SB, reactively reaching for Jones, most of their OL rebuild attempts, all the $ thrown at UFAs, it's all reactionary attempts filled with poor player evaluations with no cohesive execution of whatever plan they had drawn up.
Cherry picked examples will always get shot down  
Producer : 11/30/2021 11:42 am : link
Aaron Rodgers has played all season with a back up LT.

Wilson has an injured hand and has often played behind a makeshift line, and performed.

Mahomes still played well in the SB, but yes he lost two key OLs just prior to a game against a peaking Super Bowl defense. Hardly comparable to Jones.

I get it, you like Jones. You want to make excuses for him. You want to throw money and good years at him because you think he will suddenly perform at a level he has never flashed. But the die is probably cast on Jones. Whether you like it or not, he has been unmasked as a pretender.
RE: Another bad eval  
Producer : 11/30/2021 11:43 am : link
In comment 15474141 JonC said:
Quote:
right out of the chute was sticking with Eli and trying to build one last run around him. Drafting SB, reactively reaching for Jones, most of their OL rebuild attempts, all the $ thrown at UFAs, it's all reactionary attempts filled with poor player evaluations with no cohesive execution of whatever plan they had drawn up.


Yes.. a crucial and epuc blunder, one of many, that many of us saw coming.

It is an organization of dummies. And they will be dummies until they get ahead of the curve, instead of always being behind.
*epic  
Producer : 11/30/2021 11:44 am : link
.
RE: Drafting at the top for need  
TommyWiseau : 11/30/2021 12:38 pm : link
In comment 15474022 JonC said:
Quote:
got them into this situation.


That and overpaying for backups and ST players. Rather then make some quality picks in rounds 3 - 7 and having them fill out the roster for cheap $$ we usually end up overpaying for backup/2nd string players. See Kyle Rudolph, Devontae Booker
Seahawks  
Toth029 : 11/30/2021 2:09 pm : link
And Wilson.

28 combined points in the last three games. Let's stop talking like he's Rodgers or Mahomes.

In fact, their offense is 25th right now. Giants is 26th. Russell Wilson's QBR is almost identical to Jones's. Yet he gets all the blame. Same folks who blame Jones for the Giants offensive issues go sideways when the same issues plague the Seahwks.
FFS  
Thegratefulhead : 11/30/2021 2:16 pm : link
Every time a great QB has bad game the faithful rush to the forums to defend Daniel Jones.

It is monumentally fucking stupid.

I have word for you.

Consistency.

Wilson is injured, those throws from Monday are extreme outliers. Look at the totality of the guy's career. Same with Mahomes.

They both have won Superbowls.


Jones has done NOTHING.

E V E R.

Stop it.
RE: Another bad eval  
Scooter185 : 11/30/2021 2:19 pm : link
In comment 15474141 JonC said:
Quote:
right out of the chute was sticking with Eli and trying to build one last run around him. Drafting SB, reactively reaching for Jones, most of their OL rebuild attempts, all the $ thrown at UFAs, it's all reactionary attempts filled with poor player evaluations with no cohesive execution of whatever plan they had drawn up.


good summary of the giants issues pretty much since the last SB win. I'll add that their philosophy seems to be "move on too late rather than too soon" which leads to all these reactionary moves
RE: Drafting at the top for need  
giantstock : 11/30/2021 7:32 pm : link
In comment 15474022 JonC said:
Quote:
got them into this situation.


No it didn't.

Not recognizing that the team should've been in complete rebuild at the start got them in this position.

For example, Barkley would've never been taken. Money on the cap wouldn't have been wasted on Solder and a trade wasting more cap space on Ogletree wouldn't have been made. Would've gotten more for Landon Collins than what they got. Paying so much for Golden Tate.

These are all examples of a GM that lacked a clear understanding of what his team was. When your GM lacks this type of understanding - as the cliche goes "Say goodnight. This game is over."
RE: FFS  
giantstock : 11/30/2021 7:43 pm : link
In comment 15474424 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
Every time a great QB has bad game the faithful rush to the forums to defend Daniel Jones.

It is monumentally fucking stupid.

I have word for you.

Consistency.

Wilson is injured, those throws from Monday are extreme outliers. Look at the totality of the guy's career. Same with Mahomes.

They both have won Superbowls.


Jones has done NOTHING.

E V E R.

Stop it.


Every time logic shows other failures on this team besides QB, the morons seem to chime in that don't understand football, and come out and look to blame the QB and only the QB.

It can get tiresome sometimes reading these moronic comments from those that think football is just a 1 position sport.

But at least while a bit tiresome, they do continue to provide us consistency by having a good laugh at their expense.

Thank you for that. Don't stop.
Re: Wilson and Seahawks  
BillKo : 11/30/2021 8:12 pm : link
Did I hear last night the fired their OC (after a near record breaking offensive year)?

New guy seems clueless, which reminds me of someone we know.

Players have to produce, but coaching and play calling is essential.

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