IF DT needs to be at NT and he excels at it nobody will complain. This is two defensive coaching staffs that have him at end unless people are saying that Dave is telling the staff you can't play him at NT. Maybe part of the falloff is not having DT at NT.
I remember last years draft there were rumblings the Giants like DT Barmore who went to the Patriots so maybe the staff was aware of the need.
RE: RE: Sy, don't you think the QB needs to challenge defenses downfield
And maybe willing is wrong the word. Maybe unable to challenge defenses with regularity. It may have worked here, but in general this conservative and inept QB play is why we are losing more games than we are winning. Good QB play isn't just about what mistakes aren't being made, it is also about challenging defenses and making winning throws downfield.
Curious about your thoughts on this, since you seem to praise Jones when he doesn't make mistakes, but you never seem to comment about the plays he doesn't make, or can't make, that great teams need from their QB.
Yes, in a perfect world they are challenging down the field more often. I think a passing game needs to throw the ball 20+ yards down the field at least 6-7 times per game on average.
I disagree in regard to your comment about being too soft on Jones. I have criticized him plenty and have repeatedly said I'm not sold on him yet being the guy. But one cannot deny how bad the situation has been since he was drafted.
I'll have a full evaluation and what I think they should do at QB after the season
Thank you, Sy. Appreciate your perspective, as always.
The Lawrence issue sounds like the KC Chris Jones issue
And maybe willing is wrong the word. Maybe unable to challenge defenses with regularity. It may have worked here, but in general this conservative and inept QB play is why we are losing more games than we are winning. Good QB play isn't just about what mistakes aren't being made, it is also about challenging defenses and making winning throws downfield.
Curious about your thoughts on this, since you seem to praise Jones when he doesn't make mistakes, but you never seem to comment about the plays he doesn't make, or can't make, that great teams need from their QB.
Yes, in a perfect world they are challenging down the field more often. I think a passing game needs to throw the ball 20+ yards down the field at least 6-7 times per game on average.
I disagree in regard to your comment about being too soft on Jones. I have criticized him plenty and have repeatedly said I'm not sold on him yet being the guy. But one cannot deny how bad the situation has been since he was drafted.
I'll have a full evaluation and what I think they should do at QB after the season
Thanks Sy for your balanced and level headed comments.
-Dexter Lawrence may be one of the more volatile players on the team. He needs to get to, and stay at, nose tackle. His lack of range showed up against the PHI outside zone running game. He also wasn’t much of a presence as a pass rusher. Lawrence did record 1 pressure and his forced fumble was an enormous play. But one can make the case that the bad is outweighing the good this season and I think at least a part of it is the fact he is out of position.
If they drafted a Nose Tackle 17th overall it's an absolute atrocity of a pick.
Not true. When they drafted him, we all thought he was going to be our NT. We were shocked they moved him outside.
This. I immediately thought he was gonna be our future NT. Nothing about him said “pass rush” and all his scouting reports pegged him as the run stopper of that Clemson Dline.
That penalty was absolutely huge, and completely foreseeable as it was happening. A TD on that drive ends the game, and we are 3rd and 2 deep in Philly territory. The Giants were late getting to the LOS, and players were still moving around to get into position as the play clock ticked down close to 5 seconds. Jones or the coach needed to call a timeout there given the importance of the situation and the obvious confusion in lining up. The lack of awareness on both their parts was troubling, and if Philly's #1 draft choice could catch it would have cost us the game.
RE: The Lawrence issue sounds like the KC Chris Jones issue
-Dexter Lawrence may be one of the more volatile players on the team. He needs to get to, and stay at, nose tackle. His lack of range showed up against the PHI outside zone running game. He also wasn’t much of a presence as a pass rusher. Lawrence did record 1 pressure and his forced fumble was an enormous play. But one can make the case that the bad is outweighing the good this season and I think at least a part of it is the fact he is out of position.
If they drafted a Nose Tackle 17th overall it's an absolute atrocity of a pick.
Let me introduce you to Mr. Ted Washington. Drafted #25 in the first round in 1991. Similar size and weight to Dex. Dominating NT and 4 time probowler. If you think Dex might have a similar career then you absolutely draft him at 17 or even higher. Washington in his prime could not be moved. Not by 1 player and not very often by two.
You can probably make the argument that Justin Tucker could be a first round pick. Would you take a kicker in the first? If you need the guy to be a top 1% performer all-time to justify a pick, you probably shouldn't be taking that position with that pick. NTs play 50% or less of snaps and it's not a skillset that is difficult to find on the cheap. It's why we keep letting them walk in free agency. Probably not a position you take with a premium pick unless you're running an old school 3-4 or have a completely loaded roster that has the luxury of not needing QB, Edge, CB, OT or WR talent. With the coaching and scheme turnover these days, the first argument for a nose doesn't even carry that much weight anymore. I think the Giants took Lawrence with higher pass rush expectations, which was a mistake given how the consensus scouting community saw him.
You can probably make the argument that Justin Tucker could be a first round pick. Would you take a kicker in the first? If you need the guy to be a top 1% performer all-time to justify a pick, you probably shouldn't be taking that position with that pick. NTs play 50% or less of snaps and it's not a skillset that is difficult to find on the cheap. It's why we keep letting them walk in free agency. Probably not a position you take with a premium pick unless you're running an old school 3-4 or have a completely loaded roster that has the luxury of not needing QB, Edge, CB, OT or WR talent. With the coaching and scheme turnover these days, the first argument for a nose doesn't even carry that much weight anymore. I think the Giants took Lawrence with higher pass rush expectations, which was a mistake given how the consensus scouting community saw him.
I've had the same suspicions regarding Peart in practice, it's often the most accurate assumption too, given how much desire it takes to play the game effectively. Peart might not have it, and it's not a rare thing. Giants need to figure out how to weed it out of their draft picks.
re: Dexter, been saying it for two years, he belongs inside playing the power game, forcing double-teams, etc, not trying to extend the LoS to the boundary and play the contain and set the edge game, he's not that athletic or capable on the edge.
I've had the same suspicions regarding Peart in practice, it's often the most accurate assumption too, given how much desire it takes to play the game effectively. Peart might not have it, and it's not a rare thing. Giants need to figure out how to weed it out of their draft picks.
re: Dexter, been saying it for two years, he belongs inside playing the power game, forcing double-teams, etc, not trying to extend the LoS to the boundary and play the contain and set the edge game, he's not that athletic or capable on the edge.
On Dexter Lawrence: I've wondered about where Lawrence belongs. I think he'd be a good "shade nose" tackle in a 4-3, but people seem to scoff at the idea of using him like that because he's "multiple".
JonC, I agree completely re Dexter. It's a recurring theme with
That penalty was absolutely huge, and completely foreseeable as it was happening. A TD on that drive ends the game, and we are 3rd and 2 deep in Philly territory. The Giants were late getting to the LOS, and players were still moving around to get into position as the play clock ticked down close to 5 seconds. Jones or the coach needed to call a timeout there given the importance of the situation and the obvious confusion in lining up. The lack of awareness on both their parts was troubling, and if Philly's #1 draft choice could catch it would have cost us the game.
Thank you for agreeing with the point I made. And I also wondered why no time out was called by the Giants when it was looking so screwed up. They had all their timeouts, and the 3rd and 2 was going to be a crucial play. And they would have had so many more alternatives at third and 2 than 3rd and 7. Why wasn't Mr. fundamentals, Joe Judge aware of what was happening right in front of him?
I can't research it, but I bet if you looked up the best NTs of the past 20 years, they're largely not high draft picks.
Related to the Giants, how much do they value NT? They had a legitimately elite top 5 NT in Snacks Harrison, but they let him go for financial reasons. Maybe he was a locker room problem, but good players who are valued get away with things like that. That to me was just window dressing.
They had a homegrown NT in Tomlinson, who is a better player than Dexter, a better anchor who doesn't get pushed around, plays as big as his size, and can make plays in pass defense. He was a model teammate, team captain, and example to young players. They let him go for money reasons.
So they only like NTs so much. It seems clear to me they don't highly value it. Also seems like they drafted a guy 17th overall with the plan to "fix" the part of his game that was missing, which is always a cautionary move.
I've had the same suspicions regarding Peart in practice, it's often the most accurate assumption too, given how much desire it takes to play the game effectively. Peart might not have it, and it's not a rare thing. Giants need to figure out how to weed it out of their draft picks.
re: Dexter, been saying it for two years, he belongs inside playing the power game, forcing double-teams, etc, not trying to extend the LoS to the boundary and play the contain and set the edge game, he's not that athletic or capable on the edge.
Agree on both fronts.
The "should not have been picked at #17" is a tired argument to me. I would rather discuss what can be done with him as an every down NT. Put this boulder over center, let him 2 gap. I bet it helps the defense.
I've had the same suspicions regarding Peart in practice, it's often the most accurate assumption too, given how much desire it takes to play the game effectively. Peart might not have it, and it's not a rare thing. Giants need to figure out how to weed it out of their draft picks.
maybe we have the next Ogden? And Orlando Brown Jr. was a hot mess at the combine after polishing off a buffet at IHOP and wiping the syrupy mess around his mouth with his shirt.
I've had the same suspicions regarding Peart in practice, it's often the most accurate assumption too, given how much desire it takes to play the game effectively. Peart might not have it, and it's not a rare thing. Giants need to figure out how to weed it out of their draft picks.
re: Dexter, been saying it for two years, he belongs inside playing the power game, forcing double-teams, etc, not trying to extend the LoS to the boundary and play the contain and set the edge game, he's not that athletic or capable on the edge.
Agree on both fronts.
The "should not have been picked at #17" is a tired argument to me. I would rather discuss what can be done with him as an every down NT. Put this boulder over center, let him 2 gap. I bet it helps the defense.
that’s just the thing he has a tremendous amount of talent.
Not every bowling ball you put at the nose is capable of having a two-way go. He can literally have the attention of all three interior office of lineman on a given play.
It would be nice to start seeing it consistently on the field
My opinion of Lawrence the player vs taking that position at 17 is tough. You could argue that Lawrence the actual football player may be worth a first rounder. But taking a DT who can’t rush the passer in round 1 in todays NFL is likely not a good plan.
That being said, I like Dex. He shows up nearly every game and makes plays. Worth pick 17? Probably not - the one guy who stands out who was taken after Dex is Jeffrey Simmons but he had a torn knee which made him drop. Titans made a gamble and it paid off big. Darnell Savage went shortly after Dex, that could have been a nice pick too.
I've had the same suspicions regarding Peart in practice, it's often the most accurate assumption too, given how much desire it takes to play the game effectively. Peart might not have it, and it's not a rare thing. Giants need to figure out how to weed it out of their draft picks.
Guy Whimper
That's exactly who I was thinking of as I read the thread. Rangy mid round picks (3rd round comp & a 4) who look the part but never zeem quite ready.
I've had the same suspicions regarding Peart in practice, it's often the most accurate assumption too, given how much desire it takes to play the game effectively. Peart might not have it, and it's not a rare thing. Giants need to figure out how to weed it out of their draft picks.
re: Dexter, been saying it for two years, he belongs inside playing the power game, forcing double-teams, etc, not trying to extend the LoS to the boundary and play the contain and set the edge game, he's not that athletic or capable on the edge.
Agree on both fronts.
The "should not have been picked at #17" is a tired argument to me. I would rather discuss what can be done with him as an every down NT. Put this boulder over center, let him 2 gap. I bet it helps the defense.
I have no idea why he isn't at NT. He could actually be pretty decent there IMO but the Giants get way too political with their draft picks.
Crowder and Ragland ran away from blocks like please Hammer don't hurt them.
I remember last years draft there were rumblings the Giants like DT Barmore who went to the Patriots so maybe the staff was aware of the need.
Quote:
and Jones is too willing to keep it underneath?
And maybe willing is wrong the word. Maybe unable to challenge defenses with regularity. It may have worked here, but in general this conservative and inept QB play is why we are losing more games than we are winning. Good QB play isn't just about what mistakes aren't being made, it is also about challenging defenses and making winning throws downfield.
Curious about your thoughts on this, since you seem to praise Jones when he doesn't make mistakes, but you never seem to comment about the plays he doesn't make, or can't make, that great teams need from their QB.
Yes, in a perfect world they are challenging down the field more often. I think a passing game needs to throw the ball 20+ yards down the field at least 6-7 times per game on average.
I disagree in regard to your comment about being too soft on Jones. I have criticized him plenty and have repeatedly said I'm not sold on him yet being the guy. But one cannot deny how bad the situation has been since he was drafted.
I'll have a full evaluation and what I think they should do at QB after the season
Thank you, Sy. Appreciate your perspective, as always.
I think the issue with the Giants is that they don't have anybody to play end so it goes to Lawrence. Hopefully they can remedy that this off-season.
Quote:
and Jones is too willing to keep it underneath?
And maybe willing is wrong the word. Maybe unable to challenge defenses with regularity. It may have worked here, but in general this conservative and inept QB play is why we are losing more games than we are winning. Good QB play isn't just about what mistakes aren't being made, it is also about challenging defenses and making winning throws downfield.
Curious about your thoughts on this, since you seem to praise Jones when he doesn't make mistakes, but you never seem to comment about the plays he doesn't make, or can't make, that great teams need from their QB.
Yes, in a perfect world they are challenging down the field more often. I think a passing game needs to throw the ball 20+ yards down the field at least 6-7 times per game on average.
I disagree in regard to your comment about being too soft on Jones. I have criticized him plenty and have repeatedly said I'm not sold on him yet being the guy. But one cannot deny how bad the situation has been since he was drafted.
I'll have a full evaluation and what I think they should do at QB after the season
Thanks Sy for your balanced and level headed comments.
Quote:
-Dexter Lawrence may be one of the more volatile players on the team. He needs to get to, and stay at, nose tackle. His lack of range showed up against the PHI outside zone running game. He also wasn’t much of a presence as a pass rusher. Lawrence did record 1 pressure and his forced fumble was an enormous play. But one can make the case that the bad is outweighing the good this season and I think at least a part of it is the fact he is out of position.
If they drafted a Nose Tackle 17th overall it's an absolute atrocity of a pick.
Not true. When they drafted him, we all thought he was going to be our NT. We were shocked they moved him outside.
I think the issue with the Giants is that they don't have anybody to play end so it goes to Lawrence. Hopefully they can remedy that this off-season.
On the other hand, Chris Jones had already proven himself as an effective pass rusher on the inside for a few years. Lawrence hasn't proven that.
If they drafted a Nose Tackle 17th overall it's an absolute atrocity of a pick.
Let me introduce you to Mr. Ted Washington. Drafted #25 in the first round in 1991. Similar size and weight to Dex. Dominating NT and 4 time probowler. If you think Dex might have a similar career then you absolutely draft him at 17 or even higher. Washington in his prime could not be moved. Not by 1 player and not very often by two.
Good post. Hits on all the salient points...
re: Dexter, been saying it for two years, he belongs inside playing the power game, forcing double-teams, etc, not trying to extend the LoS to the boundary and play the contain and set the edge game, he's not that athletic or capable on the edge.
re: Dexter, been saying it for two years, he belongs inside playing the power game, forcing double-teams, etc, not trying to extend the LoS to the boundary and play the contain and set the edge game, he's not that athletic or capable on the edge.
On Dexter Lawrence: I've wondered about where Lawrence belongs. I think he'd be a good "shade nose" tackle in a 4-3, but people seem to scoff at the idea of using him like that because he's "multiple".
Thank you for agreeing with the point I made. And I also wondered why no time out was called by the Giants when it was looking so screwed up. They had all their timeouts, and the 3rd and 2 was going to be a crucial play. And they would have had so many more alternatives at third and 2 than 3rd and 7. Why wasn't Mr. fundamentals, Joe Judge aware of what was happening right in front of him?
Related to the Giants, how much do they value NT? They had a legitimately elite top 5 NT in Snacks Harrison, but they let him go for financial reasons. Maybe he was a locker room problem, but good players who are valued get away with things like that. That to me was just window dressing.
They had a homegrown NT in Tomlinson, who is a better player than Dexter, a better anchor who doesn't get pushed around, plays as big as his size, and can make plays in pass defense. He was a model teammate, team captain, and example to young players. They let him go for money reasons.
So they only like NTs so much. It seems clear to me they don't highly value it. Also seems like they drafted a guy 17th overall with the plan to "fix" the part of his game that was missing, which is always a cautionary move.
re: Dexter, been saying it for two years, he belongs inside playing the power game, forcing double-teams, etc, not trying to extend the LoS to the boundary and play the contain and set the edge game, he's not that athletic or capable on the edge.
Agree on both fronts.
The "should not have been picked at #17" is a tired argument to me. I would rather discuss what can be done with him as an every down NT. Put this boulder over center, let him 2 gap. I bet it helps the defense.
Quote:
I've had the same suspicions regarding Peart in practice, it's often the most accurate assumption too, given how much desire it takes to play the game effectively. Peart might not have it, and it's not a rare thing. Giants need to figure out how to weed it out of their draft picks.
re: Dexter, been saying it for two years, he belongs inside playing the power game, forcing double-teams, etc, not trying to extend the LoS to the boundary and play the contain and set the edge game, he's not that athletic or capable on the edge.
Agree on both fronts.
The "should not have been picked at #17" is a tired argument to me. I would rather discuss what can be done with him as an every down NT. Put this boulder over center, let him 2 gap. I bet it helps the defense.
Not every bowling ball you put at the nose is capable of having a two-way go. He can literally have the attention of all three interior office of lineman on a given play.
That being said, I like Dex. He shows up nearly every game and makes plays. Worth pick 17? Probably not - the one guy who stands out who was taken after Dex is Jeffrey Simmons but he had a torn knee which made him drop. Titans made a gamble and it paid off big. Darnell Savage went shortly after Dex, that could have been a nice pick too.
Quote:
I've had the same suspicions regarding Peart in practice, it's often the most accurate assumption too, given how much desire it takes to play the game effectively. Peart might not have it, and it's not a rare thing. Giants need to figure out how to weed it out of their draft picks.
Guy Whimper
That's exactly who I was thinking of as I read the thread. Rangy mid round picks (3rd round comp & a 4) who look the part but never zeem quite ready.
Quote:
I've had the same suspicions regarding Peart in practice, it's often the most accurate assumption too, given how much desire it takes to play the game effectively. Peart might not have it, and it's not a rare thing. Giants need to figure out how to weed it out of their draft picks.
re: Dexter, been saying it for two years, he belongs inside playing the power game, forcing double-teams, etc, not trying to extend the LoS to the boundary and play the contain and set the edge game, he's not that athletic or capable on the edge.
Agree on both fronts.
The "should not have been picked at #17" is a tired argument to me. I would rather discuss what can be done with him as an every down NT. Put this boulder over center, let him 2 gap. I bet it helps the defense.
Yes. Absolutely right.