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Giants Convert $758K of Nick Gates Salary

Saos1n : 12/2/2021 7:58 am
To guaranteed bonus, creating $379K in cap space

Wtf?
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Well, here's the thing about a 3-4 scheme  
JonC : 12/2/2021 11:07 am : link
One of the tenets is you're supposed to be able to find talent more easily, and focus the premium resources on the premium positions (OLB, CB, ILB).

Spending $21M per on a 3-4 DE is far less than ideal if you're sticking to an actual plan and correlating cap structure, imv.

Terrific player, happy to have him. But, I'd rather have Edge talent getting the $.
RE: so we're gonna kill them for Williams now too?  
chick310 : 12/2/2021 11:10 am : link
In comment 15476834 djm said:
Quote:
the one thing they got right was Williams..


Paying good players great money is probably not the best example of getting something right.

But at least you see they probably only got one thing right.

RE: RE: so we're gonna kill them for Williams now too?  
BleedBlue : 12/2/2021 11:10 am : link
In comment 15476845 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
In comment 15476834 djm said:


Quote:


the one thing they got right was Williams..



The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.


wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.

As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.

that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year
RE: Well, here's the thing about a 3-4 scheme  
jvm52106 : 12/2/2021 11:10 am : link
In comment 15476846 JonC said:
Quote:
One of the tenets is you're supposed to be able to find talent more easily, and focus the premium resources on the premium positions (OLB, CB, ILB).

Spending $21M per on a 3-4 DE is far less than ideal if you're sticking to an actual plan and correlating cap structure, imv.

Terrific player, happy to have him. But, I'd rather have Edge talent getting the $.


Could not agree more. Plus, to compound that situation or issue, we have also used a #17 pick the draft for another guy on that same line.. We have spent money and high draft capital on the one part of a 3/4 defense that is usually designed for more blue collar workman like guys, guys who eat blocks, set the edge and hold up in the run game to free up the Lions, the Hunters on the outside. Instead we have done the opposite in team formatting.
RE: RE: RE: so we're gonna kill them for Williams now too?  
jvm52106 : 12/2/2021 11:13 am : link
In comment 15476849 BleedBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 15476845 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


In comment 15476834 djm said:


Quote:


the one thing they got right was Williams..



The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.



wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.

As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.

that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year


No and perhaps you need to think through what is being said. We wasted picks on a guy at a time when we weren't winni9ng and he wasn't winning games for us. So now we are down picks in the SPRING and we have to come up with BIG $$$ for the same guy- ie he was a FA coming up... That is stupid!
RE: RE: RE: RE: so we're gonna kill them for Williams now too?  
BleedBlue : 12/2/2021 11:15 am : link
In comment 15476853 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
In comment 15476849 BleedBlue said:


Quote:


In comment 15476845 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


In comment 15476834 djm said:


Quote:


the one thing they got right was Williams..



The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.



wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.

As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.

that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year



No and perhaps you need to think through what is being said. We wasted picks on a guy at a time when we weren't winni9ng and he wasn't winning games for us. So now we are down picks in the SPRING and we have to come up with BIG $$$ for the same guy- ie he was a FA coming up... That is stupid!


we didnt waste. it gave us the ability to have him in the building, see what he was like, first crack at negotiating, etc. I dont see that as a waste. again, picks are picks. show me the hit rate on 3-5th rounders....
RE: RE: RE: so we're gonna kill them for Williams now too?  
jvm52106 : 12/2/2021 11:16 am : link
In comment 15476849 BleedBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 15476845 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


In comment 15476834 djm said:


Quote:


the one thing they got right was Williams..



The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.



wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.

As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.

that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year


and crapshoot or not, 3rd and 5th round picks do make teams (if teams do a good job) and that helps your cap. What doesn't help is having to sign mid tier guys to bigger $$$ and have them be the meat of your team.. It also doesn;t help trading and signing a bunch of ST's only guys.. One or two sure, 4-5 no..
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: so we're gonna kill them for Williams now too?  
jvm52106 : 12/2/2021 11:18 am : link
In comment 15476855 BleedBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 15476853 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


In comment 15476849 BleedBlue said:


Quote:


In comment 15476845 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


In comment 15476834 djm said:


Quote:


the one thing they got right was Williams..



The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.



wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.

As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.

that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year



No and perhaps you need to think through what is being said. We wasted picks on a guy at a time when we weren't winni9ng and he wasn't winning games for us. So now we are down picks in the SPRING and we have to come up with BIG $$$ for the same guy- ie he was a FA coming up... That is stupid!



we didnt waste. it gave us the ability to have him in the building, see what he was like, first crack at negotiating, etc. I dont see that as a waste. again, picks are picks. show me the hit rate on 3-5th rounders....


again, NO! What you did was you painted yoruself into a corner, sign him or tag him or it is a flat out failure... We literally put ourselves into a position of weakness- LW's team knew we had to meet their demands or look stupid..
RE: so we're gonna kill them for Williams now too?  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/2/2021 11:18 am : link
In comment 15476834 djm said:
Quote:
the one thing they got right was Williams..

They could potentially have gotten LW for 25% less a year earlier, but played it "safe" as they often do, and did not achieve any savings by having paid heavy guaranteed dollars up front with a guaranteed franchise tag. They paid big up front with the tag, that did not factor into the ultimate long-term contract as time served, and they also wound up paying more than they probably would have a year earlier.

There's just very rarely (if ever) a bargain sought by this front office by way of signing a player early. Maybe because they are unable to identify those players in advance?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: so we're gonna kill them for Williams now too?  
BleedBlue : 12/2/2021 11:22 am : link
In comment 15476860 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
In comment 15476855 BleedBlue said:


Quote:


In comment 15476853 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


In comment 15476849 BleedBlue said:


Quote:


In comment 15476845 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


In comment 15476834 djm said:


Quote:


the one thing they got right was Williams..



The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.



wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.

As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.

that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year



No and perhaps you need to think through what is being said. We wasted picks on a guy at a time when we weren't winni9ng and he wasn't winning games for us. So now we are down picks in the SPRING and we have to come up with BIG $$$ for the same guy- ie he was a FA coming up... That is stupid!



we didnt waste. it gave us the ability to have him in the building, see what he was like, first crack at negotiating, etc. I dont see that as a waste. again, picks are picks. show me the hit rate on 3-5th rounders....



again, NO! What you did was you painted yoruself into a corner, sign him or tag him or it is a flat out failure... We literally put ourselves into a position of weakness- LW's team knew we had to meet their demands or look stupid..


we can agree to disagree. i think the giants saw it as a chance to preview the player instead of saving a few bucks. we didnt pay THAT much more than he would have gotten on the open market.
RE: RE: so we're gonna kill them for Williams now too?  
jvm52106 : 12/2/2021 11:23 am : link
In comment 15476861 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15476834 djm said:


Quote:


the one thing they got right was Williams..


They could potentially have gotten LW for 25% less a year earlier, but played it "safe" as they often do, and did not achieve any savings by having paid heavy guaranteed dollars up front with a guaranteed franchise tag. They paid big up front with the tag, that did not factor into the ultimate long-term contract as time served, and they also wound up paying more than they probably would have a year earlier.

There's just very rarely (if ever) a bargain sought by this front office by way of signing a player early. Maybe because they are unable to identify those players in advance?


Agreed.. We go wishy washy when we want something and grow a Brontosaurus spine when we want to have an excuse for not making a move (ie- we want a ransom to move down from 2 to 4 because we can draft a guy who ahs been touched by the hand of God).. DG does things on a whim, on his gut and has literally failed at every turn as GM here. It isn't one thing, it is all things.
Well, NYG underestimated LW's value at least with his agents  
JonC : 12/2/2021 11:25 am : link
word was out there they gauged it a $12-13M per, while LW's camp was at $15-16M.

Significant miss if they could've signed him for $16M or even $17M per, which was top of the market and logic says is likely, that's the consistent takeaway.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: so we're gonna kill them for Williams now too?  
jvm52106 : 12/2/2021 11:25 am : link
In comment 15476865 BleedBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 15476860 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


In comment 15476855 BleedBlue said:


Quote:


In comment 15476853 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


In comment 15476849 BleedBlue said:


Quote:


In comment 15476845 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


In comment 15476834 djm said:


Quote:


the one thing they got right was Williams..



The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.



wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.

As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.

that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year



No and perhaps you need to think through what is being said. We wasted picks on a guy at a time when we weren't winni9ng and he wasn't winning games for us. So now we are down picks in the SPRING and we have to come up with BIG $$$ for the same guy- ie he was a FA coming up... That is stupid!



we didnt waste. it gave us the ability to have him in the building, see what he was like, first crack at negotiating, etc. I dont see that as a waste. again, picks are picks. show me the hit rate on 3-5th rounders....



again, NO! What you did was you painted yoruself into a corner, sign him or tag him or it is a flat out failure... We literally put ourselves into a position of weakness- LW's team knew we had to meet their demands or look stupid..



we can agree to disagree. i think the giants saw it as a chance to preview the player instead of saving a few bucks. we didnt pay THAT much more than he would have gotten on the open market.


I agree, we can disagree and it was a good non attacking discourse. I see what you are saying but, we do have to factor in the draft picks as part of teh cost and that cost was actually felt over 2 full seasons (draft, then the season of franchise tag and then the contract season). We paid a ton for the guy and it did affect other areas.
Attention to Detail  
Jerry in_DC : 12/2/2021 11:28 am : link
Great organizations have a huge amount. The Giants have zero.

Wal-Mart is not a huge company because they have awesome stores. It's because they optimize their operations to wring out every loose penny and deliver low prices and profits.

Amazon - same thing. They're just a website. But they are meticulous about their warehouses, their recommendations, etc.

The Navy SEALs are fit dudes with cool guns. They're a lethal strike force because of their training and attention to detail

The Giants are sloppy, careless, and impulsive. All of these deals where people say "hey it's only a couple extra million for Booker / Stewart / Lavine T / Omameh / Ryan / Rudolph / etc." - that adds up. The NFL is a hyper-competitive landscape where you need to capitalize on every opportunity. Giving away value because you are sloppy and lazy will lead you to where we are now.

And I'm sure there are hundreds more examples of this behind the scenes with player evaluation, scouting, etc.
RE: What GM  
Sean : 12/2/2021 11:31 am : link
In comment 15476553 The Jake said:
Quote:
would want to take over a team with huge pressure, a rabid media market, and zero cap space with which to fix a disastrous roster?

I disagree with this. I think it’s a highly desired job as long as Mara does this right:

-Usually a wide open division
-Fan base that is mostly desperate for an outside voice and will be patient
-Ownership will be patient
-2 draft picks in the top 10
Jerry +1  
JonC : 12/2/2021 11:31 am : link
Please post more so I am able to shut up and post less, TIA.
RE: RE: What GM  
BleedBlue : 12/2/2021 11:35 am : link
In comment 15476878 Sean said:
Quote:
In comment 15476553 The Jake said:


Quote:


would want to take over a team with huge pressure, a rabid media market, and zero cap space with which to fix a disastrous roster?


I disagree with this. I think it’s a highly desired job as long as Mara does this right:

-Usually a wide open division
-Fan base that is mostly desperate for an outside voice and will be patient
-Ownership will be patient
-2 draft picks in the top 10


patient? eh that maybe a stretch LOL
Seems to me that in 2022 it’s all draft, no FA  
Payasdaddy : 12/2/2021 11:35 am : link
And if god forbid GM doesn’t extend jones or saquon , we could really have a much better cap situation in 2023
Ryan, SS, maybe KG could be jettisoned without as much damage
I actually might never want to draft a rb in rd 1 ever again
Seriously a good oline line and solid 2-4th rd RB go a hecka a lot farther
At one point DG managed cap well and then he went on a buyers bing and got us nowhere
Seriously he sucks badly. I still thought trading a 3rd for LW was retarded. Just so we could negotiate with him and give him 18 million + per?
RE: Attention to Detail  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/2/2021 11:38 am : link
In comment 15476874 Jerry in_DC said:
Quote:
Great organizations have a huge amount. The Giants have zero.

Wal-Mart is not a huge company because they have awesome stores. It's because they optimize their operations to wring out every loose penny and deliver low prices and profits.

Amazon - same thing. They're just a website. But they are meticulous about their warehouses, their recommendations, etc.

The Navy SEALs are fit dudes with cool guns. They're a lethal strike force because of their training and attention to detail

The Giants are sloppy, careless, and impulsive. All of these deals where people say "hey it's only a couple extra million for Booker / Stewart / Lavine T / Omameh / Ryan / Rudolph / etc." - that adds up. The NFL is a hyper-competitive landscape where you need to capitalize on every opportunity. Giving away value because you are sloppy and lazy will lead you to where we are now.

And I'm sure there are hundreds more examples of this behind the scenes with player evaluation, scouting, etc.

This is everything that is wrong with our beloved Giants right now, and you did a fantastic job of articulating it.

It's been death by a thousand papercuts for years now.
I ragged on booker deal when signed  
Payasdaddy : 12/2/2021 11:45 am : link
But besides being slow AF, he may be the best signing
Pretty sad
Jerry  
cosmicj : 12/2/2021 12:22 pm : link
+1

Take a look at the Toilolo resigning. Not a huge amount of money but utterly irrational.
RE: Attention to Detail  
Mike from SI : 12/2/2021 12:33 pm : link
In comment 15476874 Jerry in_DC said:
Quote:
Great organizations have a huge amount. The Giants have zero.

Wal-Mart is not a huge company because they have awesome stores. It's because they optimize their operations to wring out every loose penny and deliver low prices and profits.

Amazon - same thing. They're just a website. But they are meticulous about their warehouses, their recommendations, etc.

The Navy SEALs are fit dudes with cool guns. They're a lethal strike force because of their training and attention to detail

The Giants are sloppy, careless, and impulsive. All of these deals where people say "hey it's only a couple extra million for Booker / Stewart / Lavine T / Omameh / Ryan / Rudolph / etc." - that adds up. The NFL is a hyper-competitive landscape where you need to capitalize on every opportunity. Giving away value because you are sloppy and lazy will lead you to where we are now.

And I'm sure there are hundreds more examples of this behind the scenes with player evaluation, scouting, etc.


Best post I've seen in a while.
RE: Attention to Detail  
EricJ : 12/2/2021 12:51 pm : link
In comment 15476874 Jerry in_DC said:
Quote:

The Giants are sloppy, careless, and impulsive. All of these deals where people say "hey it's only a couple extra million for Booker / Stewart / Lavine T / Omameh / Ryan / Rudolph / etc." - that adds up.


Unfortunately they also find themselves having to over-pay because they become desperate due to bad drafting and free agent signings from prior seasons. It all starts to snowball and then when you absolutely need to solve for a problem, you have to pay.

Why did we need to sign Rudolph? Because Engram sucks
Why did we need Booker? Because Barkley cannot stay healthy
They did not need to sign Rudolph or Booker  
Go Terps : 12/2/2021 2:24 pm : link
.
RE: Attention to Detail  
AcesUp : 12/2/2021 2:57 pm : link
In comment 15476874 Jerry in_DC said:
Quote:
Great organizations have a huge amount. The Giants have zero.

Wal-Mart is not a huge company because they have awesome stores. It's because they optimize their operations to wring out every loose penny and deliver low prices and profits.

Amazon - same thing. They're just a website. But they are meticulous about their warehouses, their recommendations, etc.

The Navy SEALs are fit dudes with cool guns. They're a lethal strike force because of their training and attention to detail

The Giants are sloppy, careless, and impulsive. All of these deals where people say "hey it's only a couple extra million for Booker / Stewart / Lavine T / Omameh / Ryan / Rudolph / etc." - that adds up. The NFL is a hyper-competitive landscape where you need to capitalize on every opportunity. Giving away value because you are sloppy and lazy will lead you to where we are now.

And I'm sure there are hundreds more examples of this behind the scenes with player evaluation, scouting, etc.


Great post. People like to point at the big whiffs but all teams have those. The Giants certainly have had their share for sure but the most demoralizing thing as a fan is to watch them consistently lose in the margins. Not even lose in the margins, just completely ignore them. They're dumb money.
RE: Ugly cap situation in 2021  
eric2425ny : 12/2/2021 3:02 pm : link
In comment 15476567 JonC said:
Quote:
and 2022 is going to be snug too, all for a bad football team with an uncomfortable number of questions remaining unanswered.


Totally agree, a team with a QB on a rookie deal and 4 wins in 11 games should not be cap strapped.

Unless they have a horrible GM that overpays players, which is clearly the case in NY right now.
RE: RE: you guys LOVE this shit  
81_Great_Dane : 12/2/2021 3:08 pm : link
In comment 15476799 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Gettleman is an incompetent, arrogant, slob. He deserves a humiliating firing but won't get it. A complete fucking jerk.
We fans have the luxury of wanting a guy punished. The organization has to think about hiring the next guy. The guys you want them to hire are looking at how DG is treated. If the Giants humiliate him, that is bad for recruiting. It's a small talent pool so that matters. That's the good reason for the Giants to make nice even if his track record as GM is abysmal.
speaking of Gates  
bc4life : 12/2/2021 3:54 pm : link
excuse if this is German
link - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: RE: you guys LOVE this shit  
Red Right Hand : 12/2/2021 4:02 pm : link
In comment 15476821 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15476810 djm said:


Quote:


In comment 15476799 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15476725 djm said:


Quote:


lol. How on earth does this lead some of you to bash the GM, hey, have fun.



How do you not understand this by now? Each of these small restructures is like taking the vitals of a very sick person. They are each an indicator of how ill the person really is.

And Gettleman deserves every bit of criticism he gets. As a destructive force he has lapped Ray Handley many times over. I doubt we ever hear him speak publicly as GM again, and starting in January Mara will start a campaign to erase his memory like it's Stalinist Russia.

Gettleman is an incompetent, arrogant, slob. He deserves a humiliating firing but won't get it. A complete fucking jerk.




Enjoy the anger over 758k. I'll bow out, just had to say my piece.


It's not $758k in a vacuum.

It's being so fucking bad at cap management that you need to restructure a player who might NEVER play again so that you can scrape together $379k in current cap space.

That's a fucking disgrace in concept.
I'm m reading this and thinking what a prick you are. You're twisted, because Mara poneyed up 400G's to Gates when he may never play again?

Unfortunately,you're right about the bottom line.

Still,If Gates never plays again, I'm cool with Mara forking over 400g to a guy he didn't otherwise have to.
On a team that sucks ass, and will for some time to come, it's little things like this that do matter when you talk about the character of a franchise, in real world terms, and their impact, and what is, and isn't really important. Things like that are why I'm still a fan. The drama.
NY has a way of exposing everyone for what they really are, eventually. Did they really need to pay Rudolph?

Is it a coincidence Giants management are known as poor businessmen but good people? Is Mara a fool? Maybe. I don't think all the financial decisions they make are based solely on business 100%.

Or maybe his foundation for his team ( a reflection of himself, any way you cut it) is based on something else.

Everything comes down to John Mara in the end, now. There's nobody else, not really. He's the constant. Myself, I'm rooting for him, warts and all.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: you guys LOVE this shit  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/2/2021 4:32 pm : link
In comment 15477237 Red Right Hand said:
Quote:
In comment 15476821 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15476810 djm said:


Quote:


In comment 15476799 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15476725 djm said:


Quote:


lol. How on earth does this lead some of you to bash the GM, hey, have fun.



How do you not understand this by now? Each of these small restructures is like taking the vitals of a very sick person. They are each an indicator of how ill the person really is.

And Gettleman deserves every bit of criticism he gets. As a destructive force he has lapped Ray Handley many times over. I doubt we ever hear him speak publicly as GM again, and starting in January Mara will start a campaign to erase his memory like it's Stalinist Russia.

Gettleman is an incompetent, arrogant, slob. He deserves a humiliating firing but won't get it. A complete fucking jerk.




Enjoy the anger over 758k. I'll bow out, just had to say my piece.


It's not $758k in a vacuum.

It's being so fucking bad at cap management that you need to restructure a player who might NEVER play again so that you can scrape together $379k in current cap space.

That's a fucking disgrace in concept.

I'm m reading this and thinking what a prick you are. You're twisted, because Mara poneyed up 400G's to Gates when he may never play again?

Unfortunately,you're right about the bottom line.

Still,If Gates never plays again, I'm cool with Mara forking over 400g to a guy he didn't otherwise have to.
On a team that sucks ass, and will for some time to come, it's little things like this that do matter when you talk about the character of a franchise, in real world terms, and their impact, and what is, and isn't really important. Things like that are why I'm still a fan. The drama.
NY has a way of exposing everyone for what they really are, eventually. Did they really need to pay Rudolph?

Is it a coincidence Giants management are known as poor businessmen but good people? Is Mara a fool? Maybe. I don't think all the financial decisions they make are based solely on business 100%.

Or maybe his foundation for his team ( a reflection of himself, any way you cut it) is based on something else.

Everything comes down to John Mara in the end, now. There's nobody else, not really. He's the constant. Myself, I'm rooting for him, warts and all.

You think they converted his SALARY (which he was going to get this year) to BONUS (which he's also getting this year) as a gift to him?

This isn't new money. It's new accounting. Learn.
RE: you guys LOVE this shit  
DonQuixote : 12/2/2021 4:42 pm : link
In comment 15476725 djm said:
Quote:
lol. How on earth does this lead some of you to bash the GM, hey, have fun.


All this angst over a trivial move, but for BBI the fact that it is trivial becomes evidence that we are desperate?
....  
BrettNYG10 : 12/2/2021 4:44 pm : link
While it's unfortunate the Giants are up against the cap, at least they have an excellent roster. Greatness doesn't come cheaply.
RE: Attention to Detail  
DonQuixote : 12/2/2021 4:46 pm : link
In comment 15476874 Jerry in_DC said:
Quote:
Great organizations have a huge amount. The Giants have zero.

Wal-Mart is not a huge company because they have awesome stores. It's because they optimize their operations to wring out every loose penny and deliver low prices and profits.

Amazon - same thing. They're just a website. But they are meticulous about their warehouses, their recommendations, etc.

The Navy SEALs are fit dudes with cool guns. They're a lethal strike force because of their training and attention to detail

The Giants are sloppy, careless, and impulsive. All of these deals where people say "hey it's only a couple extra million for Booker / Stewart / Lavine T / Omameh / Ryan / Rudolph / etc." - that adds up. The NFL is a hyper-competitive landscape where you need to capitalize on every opportunity. Giving away value because you are sloppy and lazy will lead you to where we are now.

And I'm sure there are hundreds more examples of this behind the scenes with player evaluation, scouting, etc.


A lot of peeps seem in sync with this post, but it reads like a load of crap to me. Walmart, Amazon and the Navy Seals have nothing in common. The Seals don't make money but cutting corners, paying low wages to employees on food stamps, and underbidding suppliers. And all that has nothing to do with the NFL. What a crock of sh1t.
RE: RE: you guys LOVE this shit  
chick310 : 12/2/2021 4:52 pm : link
In comment 15477277 DonQuixote said:
Quote:
In comment 15476725 djm said:


Quote:


lol. How on earth does this lead some of you to bash the GM, hey, have fun.



All this angst over a trivial move, but for BBI the fact that it is trivial becomes evidence that we are desperate?


Add up all the restructuring moves they HAD to do this fall and you can determine if it's trivial.

It only reduces what you can do in the future, but no big deal as that's a thread you'll read about next year.
I think you missed his point.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/2/2021 4:56 pm : link
Or there's some confusion about what 'attention to detail' is.
But if you need a football-specific analogy, the last successful Giants head coach was notoriously meticulous about details. It might even have crossed the line into obsessive-compulsive or control-freak. . The most successful NFL head and college head coaches have a firm hand on operations and a top-down approach to running a program.

When you look at the roster-building mistakes, contract blunders, on-field self-inflicted errors, it's very difficult to argue that the Giants really do the things we think of as aligned with a good operation.
RE: RE: you guys LOVE this shit  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/2/2021 5:13 pm : link
In comment 15477277 DonQuixote said:
Quote:
In comment 15476725 djm said:


Quote:


lol. How on earth does this lead some of you to bash the GM, hey, have fun.



All this angst over a trivial move, but for BBI the fact that it is trivial becomes evidence that we are desperate?

Every one of these moves, in a vacuum, is trivial. As is every fringe player who gets a contract larger than the market would suggest, or more guaranteed money than necessary, or every time the team keeps a vested veteran (guaranteed for the full year as of week one) at the bottom of the roster where churn is likely, instead of a younger player (not guaranteed for the season).

None of these moves, by themselves, are cap killers. But a repeated trend of inefficiency leads to depleted cap space over time. We pay our kicker too much. We pay our punter too much. We pay our new tight end too much, and we had a chance to rework the contract and declined. None of those contracts are huge, but they're all overpays.

We have converted a lot of salary to bonus this year to cover for DG's spending spree this offseason, so we're effectively buying players on our credit card now, instead of cash. That will come due, along with the backloaded contracts those free agents were given in order to facilitate the spending spree in the first place.

If you thought Reese left this team in a shitty cap position in 2017, you're gonna really hate the cap position that DG has created this year.
RE: RE: RE: you guys LOVE this shit  
chick310 : 12/2/2021 5:22 pm : link
In comment 15477316 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:


If you thought Reese left this team in a shitty cap position in 2017, you're gonna really hate the cap position that DG has created this year.


Yes. Gettleman was able to operate pretty liberally during his first offseason based on the cap space he inherited.

He went shopping for a lot of players back in 2018. Too bad he blew it with all his player evaluations but at least he wasn't up against it.
 
christian : 12/2/2021 5:41 pm : link
This is a symptom of the larger problem. Remember, the Giants have already moved money off Shepard, Bradberry, and others into next year to operate this year.

Ask yourself this, if you don’t believe the Giants have a resource management issue:

- Do the big dollar UFAs play at a high level through 2-3 years?
- Do the Giants have a deep team that weathers the storm well through injuries?
- Do units that play well on the Giants typically do so year over year?
- Do the Giants seem to plug one hole, and find themselves with another?
- How many Giants look like a bargain at their current compensation?
cap comes and goes  
Platos : 12/2/2021 5:52 pm : link
I swear some of you act like DG fucked your wives.
RE: cap comes and goes  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/2/2021 6:18 pm : link
In comment 15477365 Platos said:
Quote:
I swear some of you act like DG fucked your wives.

Cap comes and goes?

Are you that dense?
RE: cap comes and goes  
chick310 : 12/2/2021 6:34 pm : link
In comment 15477365 Platos said:
Quote:
I swear some of you act like DG fucked your wives.


The cap comes and goes?
RE: cap comes and goes  
Go Terps : 12/2/2021 6:57 pm : link
In comment 15477365 Platos said:
Quote:
I swear some of you act like DG fucked your wives.


He just fucked our football team. Some of us actually care.
this is what happens  
Paulie Walnuts : 12/2/2021 7:03 pm : link
when you constantly shit the bed in the draft
RE: RE: Attention to Detail  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/2/2021 9:01 pm : link
In comment 15476987 EricJ said:
Quote:
In comment 15476874 Jerry in_DC said:


Quote:



The Giants are sloppy, careless, and impulsive. All of these deals where people say "hey it's only a couple extra million for Booker / Stewart / Lavine T / Omameh / Ryan / Rudolph / etc." - that adds up.



Unfortunately they also find themselves having to over-pay because they become desperate due to bad drafting and free agent signings from prior seasons. It all starts to snowball and then when you absolutely need to solve for a problem, you have to pay.

Why did we need to sign Rudolph? Because Engram sucks
Why did we need Booker? Because Barkley cannot stay healthy

Needing to sign a free agent at a particular position does not justify overpaying a free agent at that position. Fair value contracts are still the proper course of action.
Giants won't be out of this cap situation until 2023  
MartyNJ1969 : 12/2/2021 9:46 pm : link
Also, what nobody is talking about is that during this down time with the cap the Giants are going to give Fromm a chance here. The organization really likes him.

With that being said, DJ days are numbered with the Giants and I don't see Jones on the Giants in 2023 if Fromm shows something over the next year.
RE: cap comes and goes  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/2/2021 9:54 pm : link
In comment 15477365 Platos said:
Quote:
I swear some of you act like DG fucked your wives.


Hard to understate how bad the Giants have been since this GM has run it but people still find a way.
Most of the problems  
Lines of Scrimmage : 12/2/2021 9:57 pm : link
Are rooted in poor drafting. You draft poor then you have to make it up.

Then you are constantly over paying trying to be competitive. Sometimes I think it’s wise to look at the the drafts from 2012. Practically noting of long term value.

Look at what TC had starting in 2004. There were a strong base in place.

2018 and 19 are much better. Hit on 22 and 23 we will have good teams even with average QB play.


RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: And while Jones is on a rookie deal  
Ned In Atlanta : 12/2/2021 10:01 pm : link
In comment 15476619 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15476612 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 15476595 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:



The average 2021 cap number of the top 10 QB salaries is $25.04M; Jones counts $7.17M against the 2021 cap. That's almost $18M in implied cap spread that the Giants should have as a luxury while their starting QB is this cheap.

That's the only reason why it's salient to mention the context of Jones in particular being on his rookie contract.




It does not matter that Jones is on his rookie deal. There are LTs with big contracts around the league as well and ER/DEs. He is not about to get a 2nd contract IMHO the way he has been playing. He will play next season and then they will have another "cheap" QB.
I agree that the CAP is a mess and it is so because of a bunch of signings last offseason to fill holes caused by bad drafting and stupid planning by the FO.


It does matter.

In fact, it also matters that Thomas is on his rookie deal. And that Ojulari is on his.

QB, LT, EDGE are three of the most expensive positions in the sport, and the Giants have affordable contracts at each of those spots, yet are up against the cap to such an extent that they have to restructure a player who may or may not ever return so they can free up six figures this year. It's payday loan stuff going on at this point.


Bingo. It’s a joke. Very little talent at any of the premium dollar positions, dreadful record for a decade, and we’re talking about the architect of it all for the last 4 years “retiring” at the end of the year
RE: Giants won't be out of this cap situation until 2023  
Ned In Atlanta : 12/2/2021 10:04 pm : link
In comment 15477637 MartyNJ1969 said:
Quote:
Also, what nobody is talking about is that during this down time with the cap the Giants are going to give Fromm a chance here. The organization really likes him.

With that being said, DJ days are numbered with the Giants and I don't see Jones on the Giants in 2023 if Fromm shows something over the next year.


Good point re: Fromm. And they absolutely should give him a look. 2022 is going to be a punted year due to the cap mess. I married a diehard dawgs family and live in Athens. I’d love for Fromm to show something but I can’t see his arm strength, or lack thereof, holding up at MetLife in December
Ned, Phil Simms had the same problem with arm strength and hit  
MartyNJ1969 : 12/2/2021 10:09 pm : link
the weights. Fromm can do the same. They are almost the same build. Fromm is very accurate passer so he has that going for him.

I am actually excited about Fromm and wonder if DJ will be straining his neck just looking over his shoulder knowing he may be on a short lease going forward.
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