cap strapped they can't even afford to keep the books in the black without making moves like this. Shameful considering how bad we are and have a QB on his first contract.
FYI, based on Gate's numbers, if he isn't deemed likely to be back he is a target to be cut. Dead money would be small and saves a couple of Mil on the Cap. Gano on the otherhand, will be with us next year or we eat almost 5 mil in dead money and save 0 on the cap. In fact we would lose 171k cap wise and eat almost 5 mil in dead money. YIKES!
FYI, based on Gate's numbers, if he isn't deemed likely to be back he is a target to be cut. Dead money would be small and saves a couple of Mil on the Cap. Gano on the otherhand, will be with us next year or we eat almost 5 mil in dead money and save 0 on the cap. In fact we would lose 171k cap wise and eat almost 5 mil in dead money. YIKES!
would want to take over a team with huge pressure, a rabid media market, and zero cap space with which to fix a disastrous roster?
Well, there’s certainly not a lot of pressure from ownership to turn things around fast, and “inheriting a mess” seems to get you a ton of rope.
There’s some house keeping that can be done next year if deemed necessary — Bradberry, Martinez, Ryan, Shepard, Rudolph etc. for instance can be cut and money saved.
Who gives crap about what player is on their rookie deal. There are several. More importantly, there are several players on big contracts, some of whom are not worth it.
Big picture is all that counts and it is a cluster fuck. Abrams needs to go with DG. Fighting for nickels with 6 games to go...
Who gives crap about what player is on their rookie deal. There are several. More importantly, there are several players on big contracts, some of whom are not worth it.
Big picture is all that counts and it is a cluster fuck. Abrams needs to go with DG. Fighting for nickels with 6 games to go...
Who gives a crap? Maybe because QB’s average 8-15% of the cap for most teams, yet Jones is less than 5. So, we have a QB making well below the norm, on a terrible team who still can’t find money, due to terrible spending habits.
this year. Because as mentioned above he is a prime candidate to be cut before 2022.
I'm no cap expert to say the least but the Giants cap crunch is only a 2022 issue. They're fine in 2023.
The Giants have 5 picks in the top 75 right now in the 2022 draft. A new GM won't be able to cut any of the big contracts before next year but all of them can be cut before 2023 if the Giants choose. Jones and Barkley are not under contract for 2023 right now. The Giants are still a dysfunctional mess but they're not in long term cap trouble and with the draft picks a new GM can start a makeover pretty quickly.
Who gives crap about what player is on their rookie deal. There are several. More importantly, there are several players on big contracts, some of whom are not worth it.
Big picture is all that counts and it is a cluster fuck. Abrams needs to go with DG. Fighting for nickels with 6 games to go...
Who gives a crap? Maybe because QB’s average 8-15% of the cap for most teams, yet Jones is less than 5. So, we have a QB making well below the norm, on a terrible team who still can’t find money, due to terrible spending habits.
Again, you are picking on one position. There are several players making a lot more then him. He can be cut and a new QB found, but there are a few players that have years to go before they can be cut without dead money.
Who gives crap about what player is on their rookie deal. There are several. More importantly, there are several players on big contracts, some of whom are not worth it.
Because QB is one of the positions where the disparity between a rookie deal (which is not position-specific) and a second contract (or FA contract) is the largest.
The average 2021 cap number of the top 10 QB salaries is $25.04M; Jones counts $7.17M against the 2021 cap. That's almost $18M in implied cap spread that the Giants should have as a luxury while their starting QB is this cheap.
That's the only reason why it's salient to mention the context of Jones in particular being on his rookie contract.
this year. Because as mentioned above he is a prime candidate to be cut before 2022.
I'm no cap expert to say the least but the Giants cap crunch is only a 2022 issue. They're fine in 2023.
The Giants have 5 picks in the top 75 right now in the 2022 draft. A new GM won't be able to cut any of the big contracts before next year but all of them can be cut before 2023 if the Giants choose. Jones and Barkley are not under contract for 2023 right now. The Giants are still a dysfunctional mess but they're not in long term cap trouble and with the draft picks a new GM can start a makeover pretty quickly.
2022 isn't great but, we currently have very little dead cap money so we can make some moves (dead cap goes up) that frees cap space. Dead Cap is a bit overblown as all that truly matters is how much cap space do you have to work with. It helps to have a LOT of draft picks in a year where you will be cutting a number of folks.
What stinks is that we have guys who have Dead Cap money if cut and NO Cap Savings- Barkley, Gano, Solder.. Gates and Dixon are clear cut possibilities as their Dead money is little and they save over $3mil.
Want to know why Dixon has a job, becuase we can't afford to sign another Punter and he saves us money by letting him go in the off season.
RE: Hopefully that means Gates is getting some of his next year money
The average 2021 cap number of the top 10 QB salaries is $25.04M; Jones counts $7.17M against the 2021 cap. That's almost $18M in implied cap spread that the Giants should have as a luxury while their starting QB is this cheap.
That's the only reason why it's salient to mention the context of Jones in particular being on his rookie contract.
It does not matter that Jones is on his rookie deal. There are LTs with big contracts around the league as well and ER/DEs. He is not about to get a 2nd contract IMHO the way he has been playing. He will play next season and then they will have another "cheap" QB.
I agree that the CAP is a mess and it is so because of a bunch of signings last offseason to fill holes caused by bad drafting and stupid planning by the FO.
RE: RE: RE: RE: And while Jones is on a rookie deal
The average 2021 cap number of the top 10 QB salaries is $25.04M; Jones counts $7.17M against the 2021 cap. That's almost $18M in implied cap spread that the Giants should have as a luxury while their starting QB is this cheap.
That's the only reason why it's salient to mention the context of Jones in particular being on his rookie contract.
It does not matter that Jones is on his rookie deal. There are LTs with big contracts around the league as well and ER/DEs. He is not about to get a 2nd contract IMHO the way he has been playing. He will play next season and then they will have another "cheap" QB.
I agree that the CAP is a mess and it is so because of a bunch of signings last offseason to fill holes caused by bad drafting and stupid planning by the FO.
It does matter.
In fact, it also matters that Thomas is on his rookie deal. And that Ojulari is on his.
QB, LT, EDGE are three of the most expensive positions in the sport, and the Giants have affordable contracts at each of those spots, yet are up against the cap to such an extent that they have to restructure a player who may or may not ever return so they can free up six figures this year. It's payday loan stuff going on at this point.
of Abrams, or any accountant, being a cap guru. Any half ass accountant can put numbers on the spreadsheet and work them around, and/or look ahead.
The cap is almost entirely determined by the decision makers. Agents get the best deals that work for their clients. GMs (or whomever is pulling the strings) decide if they want to make that deal and/or squeeze the best price out of the bargain. The accountant has some input on how the contract should be structured, but structures are pretty straight forward. Gimmicks are only needed if the cap isn't being managed properly.
The Gettleman era is littered with contracts that seem out of proportion to the talent. Big, medium, and small contracts. The DG administration (I'm a firm believer the Giants have a group dynamic, so it's not all DG, although the buck stops there) has been an almost complete disaster.
This is merely accounting. We apparently need to borrow money. Doesn't matter what bank you go to. Overall, the cap space for next year goes down no matter what player you apply the accounting to. It looks better if it is applied to a productive player still on the team, but the bottom line on the spreadsheet is the same.
Now is when you weep about sinking the costs, not when a player is cut.
That’s where my confusion comes from. No way they could know that yet
Well, sure they could. Depends on the nature of the break, initial healing, and other damage. They should have a pretty good idea by now
There was talk of possible amputation. Could he keep his leg and walk? Sure. Can he gain some strength back? Sure. I don’t see how they can make an assessment on if he can regain his form and better on it, yet. Might just be me
cap management, especially as others have noted since we are 4-7 and Jones is still on his rookie contract. To have to make moves like this shows how desperate we are for money just to get through the season. JonC is also right that the cap will be tight again next year.
This. They should all be gone. Just hideous cap management.
Might be a case of being to good at his job. DG comes to him, I want this shiny new toy but I don't have any money, but i really really want it. KA - It's OK Davie, I can find you the money. Let me just move a couple things around.
of Abrams, or any accountant, being a cap guru. Any half ass accountant can put numbers on the spreadsheet and work them around, and/or look ahead.
The cap is almost entirely determined by the decision makers. Agents get the best deals that work for their clients. GMs (or whomever is pulling the strings) decide if they want to make that deal and/or squeeze the best price out of the bargain. The accountant has some input on how the contract should be structured, but structures are pretty straight forward. Gimmicks are only needed if the cap isn't being managed properly.
The Gettleman era is littered with contracts that seem out of proportion to the talent. Big, medium, and small contracts. The DG administration (I'm a firm believer the Giants have a group dynamic, so it's not all DG, although the buck stops there) has been an almost complete disaster.
This past offseason notwithstanding, the massive cap flaw of the Gettleman era has been in the bottom end of the FA pool. So many fungible FAs were signed to meaningful contracts with real guaranteed money that could have been replaced by UDFA. IMO, it's a reflection of his background in pro personnel rather than college scouting, combined with a 1-year plan every year, rather than strategically building a roster to compete on time.
This past year, it was a zig when they're zagging approach. Most of the league put their wallets away because of the cap situation and the Giants recognized an opportunity to pounce on talent. That alone wasn't a mistake; in fact, I'd argue that trading on market inefficiencies is smart, ordinarily. But that doesn't necessarily make the contracts that were issued especially astute. Golladay in particular is a cap albatross thus far. Williams was probably cheaper a year earlier. The Logan Ryan contract coming off the scrap heap is a head-scratcher. Not adjusting Kyle Rudolph's deal for injury when the opportunity was available is criminal.
This. They should all be gone. Just hideous cap management.
Might be a case of being to good at his job. DG comes to him, I want this shiny new toy but I don't have any money, but i really really want it. KA - It's OK Davie, I can find you the money. Let me just move a couple things around.
Literally any cap guy can move money around to fit a signing in. But the good ones also lay out the 2/3/4 year cap impact of those adjustments and defend their cap space accordingly.
If KA is incapable of defending the cap against two different GMs now, how the fuck would Mara ever consider him as GM himself?
Some of us were saying in DG year 1 that the contracts
they were handing out were self-inflicted wounds. Nothing has changed since. They're still making the same mistakes as when paying Nate Solder or Alec Ogletree or even a relatively small move like wildly overpaying for a corpse of Johnathan Stewart.
Awfully convenient. We love to create and condemn the big bad villain around here. Seems to be a pattern developing. Find villain, condemn villain, get a new villain. Rinse. Repeat.
of Abrams, or any accountant, being a cap guru. Any half ass accountant can put numbers on the spreadsheet and work them around, and/or look ahead.
The cap is almost entirely determined by the decision makers. Agents get the best deals that work for their clients. GMs (or whomever is pulling the strings) decide if they want to make that deal and/or squeeze the best price out of the bargain. The accountant has some input on how the contract should be structured, but structures are pretty straight forward. Gimmicks are only needed if the cap isn't being managed properly.
The Gettleman era is littered with contracts that seem out of proportion to the talent. Big, medium, and small contracts. The DG administration (I'm a firm believer the Giants have a group dynamic, so it's not all DG, although the buck stops there) has been an almost complete disaster.
I've said this before, but the Maras might be so backwards that Abrams being able to work in Excel makes him a "cap guru" in their eyes.
that are making the money they should be making. Even Galladay, as highly paid as he is, is going to be the starting WR on this team next season and he should be. He's a good player having a down year because of injury and ineffective QB play.
You're getting all worked up and scared about the cap but many of the cap eaters could have big bounce back years in 2022.
I'm sure my hopeful take will anger some. Go ahead and release hell.
Awfully convenient. We love to create and condemn the big bad villain around here. Seems to be a pattern developing. Find villain, condemn villain, get a new villain. Rinse. Repeat.
Yep, and yet nobody wants to point at John and Chris Mara.
when word was the best offer he had was $10-12M per is the problem. It's a pattern for this bad team and bad management structure. $6-8M less to spend to try and improve the team further, same with the Solder contract. Eventually, you pay the piper and for NYG a bad football roster at the cap is less than ideal, it's ok to just accept the fact.
Awfully convenient. We love to create and condemn the big bad villain around here. Seems to be a pattern developing. Find villain, condemn villain, get a new villain. Rinse. Repeat.
Yep, and yet nobody wants to point at John and Chris Mara.
DG is an easy target and he more than earned that bullseye, don't get me wrong, but 785K of money? Ok then lol...just a bit over reacting I'd say.
And how is this even coming as a shock? Everyone said the Giants had no money this last off-season, then they go out and spend a lot of money anyway, find a way to make the cap work, then implement a typical cap/bookkeeping maneuver here and out come the pitchforks.
lol. How on earth does this lead some of you to bash the GM, hey, have fun.
How do you not understand this by now? Each of these small restructures is like taking the vitals of a very sick person. They are each an indicator of how ill the person really is.
And Gettleman deserves every bit of criticism he gets. As a destructive force he has lapped Ray Handley many times over. I doubt we ever hear him speak publicly as GM again, and starting in January Mara will start a campaign to erase his memory like it's Stalinist Russia.
Gettleman is an incompetent, arrogant, slob. He deserves a humiliating firing but won't get it. A complete fucking jerk.
when word was the best offer he had was $10-12M per is the problem. It's a pattern for this bad team and bad management structure. $6-8M less to spend to try and improve the team further, same with the Solder contract. Eventually, you pay the piper and for NYG a bad football roster at the cap is less than ideal, it's ok to just accept the fact.
Which really makes next years draft SOOOO important. You have to get major quality and quantity out of that draft.
when word was the best offer he had was $10-12M per is the problem. It's a pattern for this bad team and bad management structure. $6-8M less to spend to try and improve the team further, same with the Solder contract. Eventually, you pay the piper and for NYG a bad football roster at the cap is less than ideal, it's ok to just accept the fact.
I don't buy that one bit. So you're saying the Giants just blindly overpaid the WR when they didn't have to?
Or, maybe the only way they were gonna lure him here was to give him the 18 mil? You're implying that they went out of their way to overpay when they didn't have to.
Whatever we go back n forth on this every year and I say the same thing every year. If we drafted better and hired better HCs none of this shit would matter. This starts and ends with Jones and Judge, in that order.
lol. How on earth does this lead some of you to bash the GM, hey, have fun.
How do you not understand this by now? Each of these small restructures is like taking the vitals of a very sick person. They are each an indicator of how ill the person really is.
And Gettleman deserves every bit of criticism he gets. As a destructive force he has lapped Ray Handley many times over. I doubt we ever hear him speak publicly as GM again, and starting in January Mara will start a campaign to erase his memory like it's Stalinist Russia.
Gettleman is an incompetent, arrogant, slob. He deserves a humiliating firing but won't get it. A complete fucking jerk.
Enjoy the anger over 758k. I'll bow out, just had to say my piece.
was the Giants were bidding against themselves, and they blew it and caved. They tried to trade for him in Oct 2020, so his agent knew they were going to back up the Brinks for him last March. O'Brien is clearly trying to leverage his NFC North knowledge too, and early results are poor.
lol. How on earth does this lead some of you to bash the GM, hey, have fun.
How do you not understand this by now? Each of these small restructures is like taking the vitals of a very sick person. They are each an indicator of how ill the person really is.
And Gettleman deserves every bit of criticism he gets. As a destructive force he has lapped Ray Handley many times over. I doubt we ever hear him speak publicly as GM again, and starting in January Mara will start a campaign to erase his memory like it's Stalinist Russia.
Gettleman is an incompetent, arrogant, slob. He deserves a humiliating firing but won't get it. A complete fucking jerk.
Enjoy the anger over 758k. I'll bow out, just had to say my piece.
It's not $758k in a vacuum.
It's being so fucking bad at cap management that you need to restructure a player who might NEVER play again so that you can scrape together $379k in current cap space.
was the Giants were bidding against themselves, and they blew it and caved. They tried to trade for him in Oct 2020, so his agent knew they were going to back up the Brinks for him last March. O'Brien is clearly trying to leverage his NFC North knowledge too, and early results are poor.
So, yeah.
Sounds a bit how like they handled the Williams situation - bidding against themselves because they were stupid enough to trade for him.
was the Giants were bidding against themselves, and they blew it and caved. They tried to trade for him in Oct 2020, so his agent knew they were going to back up the Brinks for him last March. O'Brien is clearly trying to leverage his NFC North knowledge too, and early results are poor.
bad UFA utilization, bad drafting, ugly book closing on Jones, Judge looking overmatched and coaching scared on gamedays ... no wonder the GM and front office is getting bashed. 18-40 should be met with bashing.
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.
As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.
that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year
One of the tenets is you're supposed to be able to find talent more easily, and focus the premium resources on the premium positions (OLB, CB, ILB).
Spending $21M per on a 3-4 DE is far less than ideal if you're sticking to an actual plan and correlating cap structure, imv.
Terrific player, happy to have him. But, I'd rather have Edge talent getting the $.
Could not agree more. Plus, to compound that situation or issue, we have also used a #17 pick the draft for another guy on that same line.. We have spent money and high draft capital on the one part of a 3/4 defense that is usually designed for more blue collar workman like guys, guys who eat blocks, set the edge and hold up in the run game to free up the Lions, the Hunters on the outside. Instead we have done the opposite in team formatting.
RE: RE: RE: so we're gonna kill them for Williams now too?
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.
As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.
that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year
No and perhaps you need to think through what is being said. We wasted picks on a guy at a time when we weren't winni9ng and he wasn't winning games for us. So now we are down picks in the SPRING and we have to come up with BIG $$$ for the same guy- ie he was a FA coming up... That is stupid!
RE: RE: RE: RE: so we're gonna kill them for Williams now too?
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.
As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.
that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year
No and perhaps you need to think through what is being said. We wasted picks on a guy at a time when we weren't winni9ng and he wasn't winning games for us. So now we are down picks in the SPRING and we have to come up with BIG $$$ for the same guy- ie he was a FA coming up... That is stupid!
we didnt waste. it gave us the ability to have him in the building, see what he was like, first crack at negotiating, etc. I dont see that as a waste. again, picks are picks. show me the hit rate on 3-5th rounders....
RE: RE: RE: so we're gonna kill them for Williams now too?
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.
As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.
that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year
and crapshoot or not, 3rd and 5th round picks do make teams (if teams do a good job) and that helps your cap. What doesn't help is having to sign mid tier guys to bigger $$$ and have them be the meat of your team.. It also doesn;t help trading and signing a bunch of ST's only guys.. One or two sure, 4-5 no..
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: so we're gonna kill them for Williams now too?
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.
As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.
that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year
No and perhaps you need to think through what is being said. We wasted picks on a guy at a time when we weren't winni9ng and he wasn't winning games for us. So now we are down picks in the SPRING and we have to come up with BIG $$$ for the same guy- ie he was a FA coming up... That is stupid!
we didnt waste. it gave us the ability to have him in the building, see what he was like, first crack at negotiating, etc. I dont see that as a waste. again, picks are picks. show me the hit rate on 3-5th rounders....
again, NO! What you did was you painted yoruself into a corner, sign him or tag him or it is a flat out failure... We literally put ourselves into a position of weakness- LW's team knew we had to meet their demands or look stupid..
RE: so we're gonna kill them for Williams now too?
They could potentially have gotten LW for 25% less a year earlier, but played it "safe" as they often do, and did not achieve any savings by having paid heavy guaranteed dollars up front with a guaranteed franchise tag. They paid big up front with the tag, that did not factor into the ultimate long-term contract as time served, and they also wound up paying more than they probably would have a year earlier.
There's just very rarely (if ever) a bargain sought by this front office by way of signing a player early. Maybe because they are unable to identify those players in advance?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: so we're gonna kill them for Williams now too?
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.
As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.
that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year
No and perhaps you need to think through what is being said. We wasted picks on a guy at a time when we weren't winni9ng and he wasn't winning games for us. So now we are down picks in the SPRING and we have to come up with BIG $$$ for the same guy- ie he was a FA coming up... That is stupid!
we didnt waste. it gave us the ability to have him in the building, see what he was like, first crack at negotiating, etc. I dont see that as a waste. again, picks are picks. show me the hit rate on 3-5th rounders....
again, NO! What you did was you painted yoruself into a corner, sign him or tag him or it is a flat out failure... We literally put ourselves into a position of weakness- LW's team knew we had to meet their demands or look stupid..
we can agree to disagree. i think the giants saw it as a chance to preview the player instead of saving a few bucks. we didnt pay THAT much more than he would have gotten on the open market.
RE: RE: so we're gonna kill them for Williams now too?
They could potentially have gotten LW for 25% less a year earlier, but played it "safe" as they often do, and did not achieve any savings by having paid heavy guaranteed dollars up front with a guaranteed franchise tag. They paid big up front with the tag, that did not factor into the ultimate long-term contract as time served, and they also wound up paying more than they probably would have a year earlier.
There's just very rarely (if ever) a bargain sought by this front office by way of signing a player early. Maybe because they are unable to identify those players in advance?
Agreed.. We go wishy washy when we want something and grow a Brontosaurus spine when we want to have an excuse for not making a move (ie- we want a ransom to move down from 2 to 4 because we can draft a guy who ahs been touched by the hand of God).. DG does things on a whim, on his gut and has literally failed at every turn as GM here. It isn't one thing, it is all things.
Well, NYG underestimated LW's value at least with his agents
word was out there they gauged it a $12-13M per, while LW's camp was at $15-16M.
Significant miss if they could've signed him for $16M or even $17M per, which was top of the market and logic says is likely, that's the consistent takeaway.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: so we're gonna kill them for Williams now too?
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.
As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.
that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year
No and perhaps you need to think through what is being said. We wasted picks on a guy at a time when we weren't winni9ng and he wasn't winning games for us. So now we are down picks in the SPRING and we have to come up with BIG $$$ for the same guy- ie he was a FA coming up... That is stupid!
we didnt waste. it gave us the ability to have him in the building, see what he was like, first crack at negotiating, etc. I dont see that as a waste. again, picks are picks. show me the hit rate on 3-5th rounders....
again, NO! What you did was you painted yoruself into a corner, sign him or tag him or it is a flat out failure... We literally put ourselves into a position of weakness- LW's team knew we had to meet their demands or look stupid..
we can agree to disagree. i think the giants saw it as a chance to preview the player instead of saving a few bucks. we didnt pay THAT much more than he would have gotten on the open market.
I agree, we can disagree and it was a good non attacking discourse. I see what you are saying but, we do have to factor in the draft picks as part of teh cost and that cost was actually felt over 2 full seasons (draft, then the season of franchise tag and then the contract season). We paid a ton for the guy and it did affect other areas.
Great organizations have a huge amount. The Giants have zero.
Wal-Mart is not a huge company because they have awesome stores. It's because they optimize their operations to wring out every loose penny and deliver low prices and profits.
Amazon - same thing. They're just a website. But they are meticulous about their warehouses, their recommendations, etc.
The Navy SEALs are fit dudes with cool guns. They're a lethal strike force because of their training and attention to detail
The Giants are sloppy, careless, and impulsive. All of these deals where people say "hey it's only a couple extra million for Booker / Stewart / Lavine T / Omameh / Ryan / Rudolph / etc." - that adds up. The NFL is a hyper-competitive landscape where you need to capitalize on every opportunity. Giving away value because you are sloppy and lazy will lead you to where we are now.
And I'm sure there are hundreds more examples of this behind the scenes with player evaluation, scouting, etc.
would want to take over a team with huge pressure, a rabid media market, and zero cap space with which to fix a disastrous roster?
I disagree with this. I think it’s a highly desired job as long as Mara does this right:
-Usually a wide open division
-Fan base that is mostly desperate for an outside voice and will be patient
-Ownership will be patient
-2 draft picks in the top 10
would want to take over a team with huge pressure, a rabid media market, and zero cap space with which to fix a disastrous roster?
I disagree with this. I think it’s a highly desired job as long as Mara does this right:
-Usually a wide open division
-Fan base that is mostly desperate for an outside voice and will be patient
-Ownership will be patient
-2 draft picks in the top 10
And if god forbid GM doesn’t extend jones or saquon , we could really have a much better cap situation in 2023
Ryan, SS, maybe KG could be jettisoned without as much damage
I actually might never want to draft a rb in rd 1 ever again
Seriously a good oline line and solid 2-4th rd RB go a hecka a lot farther
At one point DG managed cap well and then he went on a buyers bing and got us nowhere
Seriously he sucks badly. I still thought trading a 3rd for LW was retarded. Just so we could negotiate with him and give him 18 million + per?
Great organizations have a huge amount. The Giants have zero.
Wal-Mart is not a huge company because they have awesome stores. It's because they optimize their operations to wring out every loose penny and deliver low prices and profits.
Amazon - same thing. They're just a website. But they are meticulous about their warehouses, their recommendations, etc.
The Navy SEALs are fit dudes with cool guns. They're a lethal strike force because of their training and attention to detail
The Giants are sloppy, careless, and impulsive. All of these deals where people say "hey it's only a couple extra million for Booker / Stewart / Lavine T / Omameh / Ryan / Rudolph / etc." - that adds up. The NFL is a hyper-competitive landscape where you need to capitalize on every opportunity. Giving away value because you are sloppy and lazy will lead you to where we are now.
And I'm sure there are hundreds more examples of this behind the scenes with player evaluation, scouting, etc.
This is everything that is wrong with our beloved Giants right now, and you did a fantastic job of articulating it.
It's been death by a thousand papercuts for years now.
Great organizations have a huge amount. The Giants have zero.
Wal-Mart is not a huge company because they have awesome stores. It's because they optimize their operations to wring out every loose penny and deliver low prices and profits.
Amazon - same thing. They're just a website. But they are meticulous about their warehouses, their recommendations, etc.
The Navy SEALs are fit dudes with cool guns. They're a lethal strike force because of their training and attention to detail
The Giants are sloppy, careless, and impulsive. All of these deals where people say "hey it's only a couple extra million for Booker / Stewart / Lavine T / Omameh / Ryan / Rudolph / etc." - that adds up. The NFL is a hyper-competitive landscape where you need to capitalize on every opportunity. Giving away value because you are sloppy and lazy will lead you to where we are now.
And I'm sure there are hundreds more examples of this behind the scenes with player evaluation, scouting, etc.
The Giants are sloppy, careless, and impulsive. All of these deals where people say "hey it's only a couple extra million for Booker / Stewart / Lavine T / Omameh / Ryan / Rudolph / etc." - that adds up.
Unfortunately they also find themselves having to over-pay because they become desperate due to bad drafting and free agent signings from prior seasons. It all starts to snowball and then when you absolutely need to solve for a problem, you have to pay.
Why did we need to sign Rudolph? Because Engram sucks
Why did we need Booker? Because Barkley cannot stay healthy
Great organizations have a huge amount. The Giants have zero.
Wal-Mart is not a huge company because they have awesome stores. It's because they optimize their operations to wring out every loose penny and deliver low prices and profits.
Amazon - same thing. They're just a website. But they are meticulous about their warehouses, their recommendations, etc.
The Navy SEALs are fit dudes with cool guns. They're a lethal strike force because of their training and attention to detail
The Giants are sloppy, careless, and impulsive. All of these deals where people say "hey it's only a couple extra million for Booker / Stewart / Lavine T / Omameh / Ryan / Rudolph / etc." - that adds up. The NFL is a hyper-competitive landscape where you need to capitalize on every opportunity. Giving away value because you are sloppy and lazy will lead you to where we are now.
And I'm sure there are hundreds more examples of this behind the scenes with player evaluation, scouting, etc.
Great post. People like to point at the big whiffs but all teams have those. The Giants certainly have had their share for sure but the most demoralizing thing as a fan is to watch them consistently lose in the margins. Not even lose in the margins, just completely ignore them. They're dumb money.
Gettleman is an incompetent, arrogant, slob. He deserves a humiliating firing but won't get it. A complete fucking jerk.
We fans have the luxury of wanting a guy punished. The organization has to think about hiring the next guy. The guys you want them to hire are looking at how DG is treated. If the Giants humiliate him, that is bad for recruiting. It's a small talent pool so that matters. That's the good reason for the Giants to make nice even if his track record as GM is abysmal.
lol. How on earth does this lead some of you to bash the GM, hey, have fun.
How do you not understand this by now? Each of these small restructures is like taking the vitals of a very sick person. They are each an indicator of how ill the person really is.
And Gettleman deserves every bit of criticism he gets. As a destructive force he has lapped Ray Handley many times over. I doubt we ever hear him speak publicly as GM again, and starting in January Mara will start a campaign to erase his memory like it's Stalinist Russia.
Gettleman is an incompetent, arrogant, slob. He deserves a humiliating firing but won't get it. A complete fucking jerk.
Enjoy the anger over 758k. I'll bow out, just had to say my piece.
It's not $758k in a vacuum.
It's being so fucking bad at cap management that you need to restructure a player who might NEVER play again so that you can scrape together $379k in current cap space.
That's a fucking disgrace in concept.
I'm m reading this and thinking what a prick you are. You're twisted, because Mara poneyed up 400G's to Gates when he may never play again?
Unfortunately,you're right about the bottom line.
Still,If Gates never plays again, I'm cool with Mara forking over 400g to a guy he didn't otherwise have to.
On a team that sucks ass, and will for some time to come, it's little things like this that do matter when you talk about the character of a franchise, in real world terms, and their impact, and what is, and isn't really important. Things like that are why I'm still a fan. The drama.
NY has a way of exposing everyone for what they really are, eventually. Did they really need to pay Rudolph?
Is it a coincidence Giants management are known as poor businessmen but good people? Is Mara a fool? Maybe. I don't think all the financial decisions they make are based solely on business 100%.
Or maybe his foundation for his team ( a reflection of himself, any way you cut it) is based on something else.
Everything comes down to John Mara in the end, now. There's nobody else, not really. He's the constant. Myself, I'm rooting for him, warts and all.
lol. How on earth does this lead some of you to bash the GM, hey, have fun.
How do you not understand this by now? Each of these small restructures is like taking the vitals of a very sick person. They are each an indicator of how ill the person really is.
And Gettleman deserves every bit of criticism he gets. As a destructive force he has lapped Ray Handley many times over. I doubt we ever hear him speak publicly as GM again, and starting in January Mara will start a campaign to erase his memory like it's Stalinist Russia.
Gettleman is an incompetent, arrogant, slob. He deserves a humiliating firing but won't get it. A complete fucking jerk.
Enjoy the anger over 758k. I'll bow out, just had to say my piece.
It's not $758k in a vacuum.
It's being so fucking bad at cap management that you need to restructure a player who might NEVER play again so that you can scrape together $379k in current cap space.
That's a fucking disgrace in concept.
I'm m reading this and thinking what a prick you are. You're twisted, because Mara poneyed up 400G's to Gates when he may never play again?
Unfortunately,you're right about the bottom line.
Still,If Gates never plays again, I'm cool with Mara forking over 400g to a guy he didn't otherwise have to.
On a team that sucks ass, and will for some time to come, it's little things like this that do matter when you talk about the character of a franchise, in real world terms, and their impact, and what is, and isn't really important. Things like that are why I'm still a fan. The drama.
NY has a way of exposing everyone for what they really are, eventually. Did they really need to pay Rudolph?
Is it a coincidence Giants management are known as poor businessmen but good people? Is Mara a fool? Maybe. I don't think all the financial decisions they make are based solely on business 100%.
Or maybe his foundation for his team ( a reflection of himself, any way you cut it) is based on something else.
Everything comes down to John Mara in the end, now. There's nobody else, not really. He's the constant. Myself, I'm rooting for him, warts and all.
You think they converted his SALARY (which he was going to get this year) to BONUS (which he's also getting this year) as a gift to him?
Great organizations have a huge amount. The Giants have zero.
Wal-Mart is not a huge company because they have awesome stores. It's because they optimize their operations to wring out every loose penny and deliver low prices and profits.
Amazon - same thing. They're just a website. But they are meticulous about their warehouses, their recommendations, etc.
The Navy SEALs are fit dudes with cool guns. They're a lethal strike force because of their training and attention to detail
The Giants are sloppy, careless, and impulsive. All of these deals where people say "hey it's only a couple extra million for Booker / Stewart / Lavine T / Omameh / Ryan / Rudolph / etc." - that adds up. The NFL is a hyper-competitive landscape where you need to capitalize on every opportunity. Giving away value because you are sloppy and lazy will lead you to where we are now.
And I'm sure there are hundreds more examples of this behind the scenes with player evaluation, scouting, etc.
A lot of peeps seem in sync with this post, but it reads like a load of crap to me. Walmart, Amazon and the Navy Seals have nothing in common. The Seals don't make money but cutting corners, paying low wages to employees on food stamps, and underbidding suppliers. And all that has nothing to do with the NFL. What a crock of sh1t.
Or there's some confusion about what 'attention to detail' is.
But if you need a football-specific analogy, the last successful Giants head coach was notoriously meticulous about details. It might even have crossed the line into obsessive-compulsive or control-freak. . The most successful NFL head and college head coaches have a firm hand on operations and a top-down approach to running a program.
When you look at the roster-building mistakes, contract blunders, on-field self-inflicted errors, it's very difficult to argue that the Giants really do the things we think of as aligned with a good operation.
lol. How on earth does this lead some of you to bash the GM, hey, have fun.
All this angst over a trivial move, but for BBI the fact that it is trivial becomes evidence that we are desperate?
Every one of these moves, in a vacuum, is trivial. As is every fringe player who gets a contract larger than the market would suggest, or more guaranteed money than necessary, or every time the team keeps a vested veteran (guaranteed for the full year as of week one) at the bottom of the roster where churn is likely, instead of a younger player (not guaranteed for the season).
None of these moves, by themselves, are cap killers. But a repeated trend of inefficiency leads to depleted cap space over time. We pay our kicker too much. We pay our punter too much. We pay our new tight end too much, and we had a chance to rework the contract and declined. None of those contracts are huge, but they're all overpays.
We have converted a lot of salary to bonus this year to cover for DG's spending spree this offseason, so we're effectively buying players on our credit card now, instead of cash. That will come due, along with the backloaded contracts those free agents were given in order to facilitate the spending spree in the first place.
If you thought Reese left this team in a shitty cap position in 2017, you're gonna really hate the cap position that DG has created this year.
This is a symptom of the larger problem. Remember, the Giants have already moved money off Shepard, Bradberry, and others into next year to operate this year.
Ask yourself this, if you don’t believe the Giants have a resource management issue:
- Do the big dollar UFAs play at a high level through 2-3 years?
- Do the Giants have a deep team that weathers the storm well through injuries?
- Do units that play well on the Giants typically do so year over year?
- Do the Giants seem to plug one hole, and find themselves with another?
- How many Giants look like a bargain at their current compensation?
The Giants are sloppy, careless, and impulsive. All of these deals where people say "hey it's only a couple extra million for Booker / Stewart / Lavine T / Omameh / Ryan / Rudolph / etc." - that adds up.
Unfortunately they also find themselves having to over-pay because they become desperate due to bad drafting and free agent signings from prior seasons. It all starts to snowball and then when you absolutely need to solve for a problem, you have to pay.
Why did we need to sign Rudolph? Because Engram sucks
Why did we need Booker? Because Barkley cannot stay healthy
Needing to sign a free agent at a particular position does not justify overpaying a free agent at that position. Fair value contracts are still the proper course of action.
Giants won't be out of this cap situation until 2023
Also, what nobody is talking about is that during this down time with the cap the Giants are going to give Fromm a chance here. The organization really likes him.
With that being said, DJ days are numbered with the Giants and I don't see Jones on the Giants in 2023 if Fromm shows something over the next year.
Are rooted in poor drafting. You draft poor then you have to make it up.
Then you are constantly over paying trying to be competitive. Sometimes I think it’s wise to look at the the drafts from 2012. Practically noting of long term value.
Look at what TC had starting in 2004. There were a strong base in place.
2018 and 19 are much better. Hit on 22 and 23 we will have good teams even with average QB play.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: And while Jones is on a rookie deal
The average 2021 cap number of the top 10 QB salaries is $25.04M; Jones counts $7.17M against the 2021 cap. That's almost $18M in implied cap spread that the Giants should have as a luxury while their starting QB is this cheap.
That's the only reason why it's salient to mention the context of Jones in particular being on his rookie contract.
It does not matter that Jones is on his rookie deal. There are LTs with big contracts around the league as well and ER/DEs. He is not about to get a 2nd contract IMHO the way he has been playing. He will play next season and then they will have another "cheap" QB.
I agree that the CAP is a mess and it is so because of a bunch of signings last offseason to fill holes caused by bad drafting and stupid planning by the FO.
It does matter.
In fact, it also matters that Thomas is on his rookie deal. And that Ojulari is on his.
QB, LT, EDGE are three of the most expensive positions in the sport, and the Giants have affordable contracts at each of those spots, yet are up against the cap to such an extent that they have to restructure a player who may or may not ever return so they can free up six figures this year. It's payday loan stuff going on at this point.
Bingo. It’s a joke. Very little talent at any of the premium dollar positions, dreadful record for a decade, and we’re talking about the architect of it all for the last 4 years “retiring” at the end of the year
RE: Giants won't be out of this cap situation until 2023
Also, what nobody is talking about is that during this down time with the cap the Giants are going to give Fromm a chance here. The organization really likes him.
With that being said, DJ days are numbered with the Giants and I don't see Jones on the Giants in 2023 if Fromm shows something over the next year.
Good point re: Fromm. And they absolutely should give him a look. 2022 is going to be a punted year due to the cap mess. I married a diehard dawgs family and live in Athens. I’d love for Fromm to show something but I can’t see his arm strength, or lack thereof, holding up at MetLife in December
Ned, Phil Simms had the same problem with arm strength and hit
the weights. Fromm can do the same. They are almost the same build. Fromm is very accurate passer so he has that going for him.
I am actually excited about Fromm and wonder if DJ will be straining his neck just looking over his shoulder knowing he may be on a short lease going forward.
That’s where my confusion comes from. No way they could know that yet
This has nothing to do with Gates’s future — this is probably just one of the last wells to go to this year.
FYI, based on Gate's numbers, if he isn't deemed likely to be back he is a target to be cut. Dead money would be small and saves a couple of Mil on the Cap. Gano on the otherhand, will be with us next year or we eat almost 5 mil in dead money and save 0 on the cap. In fact we would lose 171k cap wise and eat almost 5 mil in dead money. YIKES!
FYI, based on Gate's numbers, if he isn't deemed likely to be back he is a target to be cut. Dead money would be small and saves a couple of Mil on the Cap. Gano on the otherhand, will be with us next year or we eat almost 5 mil in dead money and save 0 on the cap. In fact we would lose 171k cap wise and eat almost 5 mil in dead money. YIKES!
Giants
$2,908,581 (Cap space) $2,908,581 (Effective Cap space) $165,731,735 (Total) $16,239,924 (Dead Money)
I didn’t catch every roster move yesterday, but they clearly are right up to the edge on this year’s accounting.
I get the general idea - but nuances are lost on me.
I get the general idea - but nuances are lost on me.
What are some of your questions?
Salary Cap - ( New Window )
This. They should all be gone. Just hideous cap management.
Nope not at all, how could you be. It is just where they are.
Well, there’s certainly not a lot of pressure from ownership to turn things around fast, and “inheriting a mess” seems to get you a ton of rope.
There’s some house keeping that can be done next year if deemed necessary — Bradberry, Martinez, Ryan, Shepard, Rudolph etc. for instance can be cut and money saved.
Who gives crap about what player is on their rookie deal. There are several. More importantly, there are several players on big contracts, some of whom are not worth it.
Big picture is all that counts and it is a cluster fuck. Abrams needs to go with DG. Fighting for nickels with 6 games to go...
The Gettleman thesis was 21/22 are the make it happen years.
On paper you look at 22 - 4th year QB, 5th year RB, 3rd year LT, plus big money UFAs at every level of the team except OL and TE.
Gettleman took his best shot and it was a cap gun.
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Unbelievable
Who gives crap about what player is on their rookie deal. There are several. More importantly, there are several players on big contracts, some of whom are not worth it.
Big picture is all that counts and it is a cluster fuck. Abrams needs to go with DG. Fighting for nickels with 6 games to go...
Who gives a crap? Maybe because QB’s average 8-15% of the cap for most teams, yet Jones is less than 5. So, we have a QB making well below the norm, on a terrible team who still can’t find money, due to terrible spending habits.
I'm no cap expert to say the least but the Giants cap crunch is only a 2022 issue. They're fine in 2023.
The Giants have 5 picks in the top 75 right now in the 2022 draft. A new GM won't be able to cut any of the big contracts before next year but all of them can be cut before 2023 if the Giants choose. Jones and Barkley are not under contract for 2023 right now. The Giants are still a dysfunctional mess but they're not in long term cap trouble and with the draft picks a new GM can start a makeover pretty quickly.
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In comment 15476562 Saos1n said:
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Unbelievable
Who gives crap about what player is on their rookie deal. There are several. More importantly, there are several players on big contracts, some of whom are not worth it.
Big picture is all that counts and it is a cluster fuck. Abrams needs to go with DG. Fighting for nickels with 6 games to go...
Who gives a crap? Maybe because QB’s average 8-15% of the cap for most teams, yet Jones is less than 5. So, we have a QB making well below the norm, on a terrible team who still can’t find money, due to terrible spending habits.
Again, you are picking on one position. There are several players making a lot more then him. He can be cut and a new QB found, but there are a few players that have years to go before they can be cut without dead money.
QBs make way too much money anyway.
Hey at least you have options. So there's that.
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Unbelievable
Who gives crap about what player is on their rookie deal. There are several. More importantly, there are several players on big contracts, some of whom are not worth it.
Because QB is one of the positions where the disparity between a rookie deal (which is not position-specific) and a second contract (or FA contract) is the largest.
The average 2021 cap number of the top 10 QB salaries is $25.04M; Jones counts $7.17M against the 2021 cap. That's almost $18M in implied cap spread that the Giants should have as a luxury while their starting QB is this cheap.
That's the only reason why it's salient to mention the context of Jones in particular being on his rookie contract.
I'm no cap expert to say the least but the Giants cap crunch is only a 2022 issue. They're fine in 2023.
The Giants have 5 picks in the top 75 right now in the 2022 draft. A new GM won't be able to cut any of the big contracts before next year but all of them can be cut before 2023 if the Giants choose. Jones and Barkley are not under contract for 2023 right now. The Giants are still a dysfunctional mess but they're not in long term cap trouble and with the draft picks a new GM can start a makeover pretty quickly.
2022 isn't great but, we currently have very little dead cap money so we can make some moves (dead cap goes up) that frees cap space. Dead Cap is a bit overblown as all that truly matters is how much cap space do you have to work with. It helps to have a LOT of draft picks in a year where you will be cutting a number of folks.
What stinks is that we have guys who have Dead Cap money if cut and NO Cap Savings- Barkley, Gano, Solder.. Gates and Dixon are clear cut possibilities as their Dead money is little and they save over $3mil.
Want to know why Dixon has a job, becuase we can't afford to sign another Punter and he saves us money by letting him go in the off season.
I'm no cap expert to say the least but the Giants cap crunch is only a 2022 issue. They're fine in 2023.
I agree — the Giants will largely have to dance with this girl (or very similar) at prom in 2022.
I hope the new GM starts a controlled burn in 2022, and doesn’t attempt to make room by kicking money down the road into 2023 and beyond.
The average 2021 cap number of the top 10 QB salaries is $25.04M; Jones counts $7.17M against the 2021 cap. That's almost $18M in implied cap spread that the Giants should have as a luxury while their starting QB is this cheap.
That's the only reason why it's salient to mention the context of Jones in particular being on his rookie contract.
It does not matter that Jones is on his rookie deal. There are LTs with big contracts around the league as well and ER/DEs. He is not about to get a 2nd contract IMHO the way he has been playing. He will play next season and then they will have another "cheap" QB.
I agree that the CAP is a mess and it is so because of a bunch of signings last offseason to fill holes caused by bad drafting and stupid planning by the FO.
Quote:
The average 2021 cap number of the top 10 QB salaries is $25.04M; Jones counts $7.17M against the 2021 cap. That's almost $18M in implied cap spread that the Giants should have as a luxury while their starting QB is this cheap.
That's the only reason why it's salient to mention the context of Jones in particular being on his rookie contract.
It does not matter that Jones is on his rookie deal. There are LTs with big contracts around the league as well and ER/DEs. He is not about to get a 2nd contract IMHO the way he has been playing. He will play next season and then they will have another "cheap" QB.
I agree that the CAP is a mess and it is so because of a bunch of signings last offseason to fill holes caused by bad drafting and stupid planning by the FO.
It does matter.
In fact, it also matters that Thomas is on his rookie deal. And that Ojulari is on his.
QB, LT, EDGE are three of the most expensive positions in the sport, and the Giants have affordable contracts at each of those spots, yet are up against the cap to such an extent that they have to restructure a player who may or may not ever return so they can free up six figures this year. It's payday loan stuff going on at this point.
The cap is almost entirely determined by the decision makers. Agents get the best deals that work for their clients. GMs (or whomever is pulling the strings) decide if they want to make that deal and/or squeeze the best price out of the bargain. The accountant has some input on how the contract should be structured, but structures are pretty straight forward. Gimmicks are only needed if the cap isn't being managed properly.
The Gettleman era is littered with contracts that seem out of proportion to the talent. Big, medium, and small contracts. The DG administration (I'm a firm believer the Giants have a group dynamic, so it's not all DG, although the buck stops there) has been an almost complete disaster.
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They are confident he will play next year?
That’s where my confusion comes from. No way they could know that yet
Well, sure they could. Depends on the nature of the break, initial healing, and other damage. They should have a pretty good idea by now
Now is when you weep about sinking the costs, not when a player is cut.
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In comment 15476510 Jolly Blue Giant said:
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They are confident he will play next year?
That’s where my confusion comes from. No way they could know that yet
Well, sure they could. Depends on the nature of the break, initial healing, and other damage. They should have a pretty good idea by now
There was talk of possible amputation. Could he keep his leg and walk? Sure. Can he gain some strength back? Sure. I don’t see how they can make an assessment on if he can regain his form and better on it, yet. Might just be me
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With a QB on his rookie deal. Fire Abrams too.
This. They should all be gone. Just hideous cap management.
Might be a case of being to good at his job. DG comes to him, I want this shiny new toy but I don't have any money, but i really really want it. KA - It's OK Davie, I can find you the money. Let me just move a couple things around.
The cap is almost entirely determined by the decision makers. Agents get the best deals that work for their clients. GMs (or whomever is pulling the strings) decide if they want to make that deal and/or squeeze the best price out of the bargain. The accountant has some input on how the contract should be structured, but structures are pretty straight forward. Gimmicks are only needed if the cap isn't being managed properly.
The Gettleman era is littered with contracts that seem out of proportion to the talent. Big, medium, and small contracts. The DG administration (I'm a firm believer the Giants have a group dynamic, so it's not all DG, although the buck stops there) has been an almost complete disaster.
This past offseason notwithstanding, the massive cap flaw of the Gettleman era has been in the bottom end of the FA pool. So many fungible FAs were signed to meaningful contracts with real guaranteed money that could have been replaced by UDFA. IMO, it's a reflection of his background in pro personnel rather than college scouting, combined with a 1-year plan every year, rather than strategically building a roster to compete on time.
This past year, it was a zig when they're zagging approach. Most of the league put their wallets away because of the cap situation and the Giants recognized an opportunity to pounce on talent. That alone wasn't a mistake; in fact, I'd argue that trading on market inefficiencies is smart, ordinarily. But that doesn't necessarily make the contracts that were issued especially astute. Golladay in particular is a cap albatross thus far. Williams was probably cheaper a year earlier. The Logan Ryan contract coming off the scrap heap is a head-scratcher. Not adjusting Kyle Rudolph's deal for injury when the opportunity was available is criminal.
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In comment 15476513 Sean said:
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With a QB on his rookie deal. Fire Abrams too.
This. They should all be gone. Just hideous cap management.
Might be a case of being to good at his job. DG comes to him, I want this shiny new toy but I don't have any money, but i really really want it. KA - It's OK Davie, I can find you the money. Let me just move a couple things around.
Literally any cap guy can move money around to fit a signing in. But the good ones also lay out the 2/3/4 year cap impact of those adjustments and defend their cap space accordingly.
If KA is incapable of defending the cap against two different GMs now, how the fuck would Mara ever consider him as GM himself?
Much more likely that they just need money and his contract has cushion that they haven't sat on yet.
What do you mean?
Every team does this!
Awfully convenient. We love to create and condemn the big bad villain around here. Seems to be a pattern developing. Find villain, condemn villain, get a new villain. Rinse. Repeat.
The cap is almost entirely determined by the decision makers. Agents get the best deals that work for their clients. GMs (or whomever is pulling the strings) decide if they want to make that deal and/or squeeze the best price out of the bargain. The accountant has some input on how the contract should be structured, but structures are pretty straight forward. Gimmicks are only needed if the cap isn't being managed properly.
The Gettleman era is littered with contracts that seem out of proportion to the talent. Big, medium, and small contracts. The DG administration (I'm a firm believer the Giants have a group dynamic, so it's not all DG, although the buck stops there) has been an almost complete disaster.
I've said this before, but the Maras might be so backwards that Abrams being able to work in Excel makes him a "cap guru" in their eyes.
You're getting all worked up and scared about the cap but many of the cap eaters could have big bounce back years in 2022.
I'm sure my hopeful take will anger some. Go ahead and release hell.
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goes where it belongs, to the GM.
Awfully convenient. We love to create and condemn the big bad villain around here. Seems to be a pattern developing. Find villain, condemn villain, get a new villain. Rinse. Repeat.
Yep, and yet nobody wants to point at John and Chris Mara.
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In comment 15476740 JonC said:
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goes where it belongs, to the GM.
Awfully convenient. We love to create and condemn the big bad villain around here. Seems to be a pattern developing. Find villain, condemn villain, get a new villain. Rinse. Repeat.
Yep, and yet nobody wants to point at John and Chris Mara.
DG is an easy target and he more than earned that bullseye, don't get me wrong, but 785K of money? Ok then lol...just a bit over reacting I'd say.
And how is this even coming as a shock? Everyone said the Giants had no money this last off-season, then they go out and spend a lot of money anyway, find a way to make the cap work, then implement a typical cap/bookkeeping maneuver here and out come the pitchforks.
We're talking about 758K.
How do you not understand this by now? Each of these small restructures is like taking the vitals of a very sick person. They are each an indicator of how ill the person really is.
And Gettleman deserves every bit of criticism he gets. As a destructive force he has lapped Ray Handley many times over. I doubt we ever hear him speak publicly as GM again, and starting in January Mara will start a campaign to erase his memory like it's Stalinist Russia.
Gettleman is an incompetent, arrogant, slob. He deserves a humiliating firing but won't get it. A complete fucking jerk.
Which really makes next years draft SOOOO important. You have to get major quality and quantity out of that draft.
I don't buy that one bit. So you're saying the Giants just blindly overpaid the WR when they didn't have to?
Or, maybe the only way they were gonna lure him here was to give him the 18 mil? You're implying that they went out of their way to overpay when they didn't have to.
Whatever we go back n forth on this every year and I say the same thing every year. If we drafted better and hired better HCs none of this shit would matter. This starts and ends with Jones and Judge, in that order.
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lol. How on earth does this lead some of you to bash the GM, hey, have fun.
How do you not understand this by now? Each of these small restructures is like taking the vitals of a very sick person. They are each an indicator of how ill the person really is.
And Gettleman deserves every bit of criticism he gets. As a destructive force he has lapped Ray Handley many times over. I doubt we ever hear him speak publicly as GM again, and starting in January Mara will start a campaign to erase his memory like it's Stalinist Russia.
Gettleman is an incompetent, arrogant, slob. He deserves a humiliating firing but won't get it. A complete fucking jerk.
Enjoy the anger over 758k. I'll bow out, just had to say my piece.
So, yeah.
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In comment 15476725 djm said:
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lol. How on earth does this lead some of you to bash the GM, hey, have fun.
How do you not understand this by now? Each of these small restructures is like taking the vitals of a very sick person. They are each an indicator of how ill the person really is.
And Gettleman deserves every bit of criticism he gets. As a destructive force he has lapped Ray Handley many times over. I doubt we ever hear him speak publicly as GM again, and starting in January Mara will start a campaign to erase his memory like it's Stalinist Russia.
Gettleman is an incompetent, arrogant, slob. He deserves a humiliating firing but won't get it. A complete fucking jerk.
Enjoy the anger over 758k. I'll bow out, just had to say my piece.
It's not $758k in a vacuum.
It's being so fucking bad at cap management that you need to restructure a player who might NEVER play again so that you can scrape together $379k in current cap space.
That's a fucking disgrace in concept.
Agree, the Giants will be ultimately be under the cap and field a team in 2022.
The dire part is the players on the field don't win.
So, yeah.
Sounds a bit how like they handled the Williams situation - bidding against themselves because they were stupid enough to trade for him.
So, yeah.
What an incredibly incompetent franchise.
No, it wasn't.
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
Spending $21M per on a 3-4 DE is far less than ideal if you're sticking to an actual plan and correlating cap structure, imv.
Terrific player, happy to have him. But, I'd rather have Edge talent getting the $.
Paying good players great money is probably not the best example of getting something right.
But at least you see they probably only got one thing right.
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the one thing they got right was Williams..
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.
As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.
that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year
Spending $21M per on a 3-4 DE is far less than ideal if you're sticking to an actual plan and correlating cap structure, imv.
Terrific player, happy to have him. But, I'd rather have Edge talent getting the $.
Could not agree more. Plus, to compound that situation or issue, we have also used a #17 pick the draft for another guy on that same line.. We have spent money and high draft capital on the one part of a 3/4 defense that is usually designed for more blue collar workman like guys, guys who eat blocks, set the edge and hold up in the run game to free up the Lions, the Hunters on the outside. Instead we have done the opposite in team formatting.
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In comment 15476834 djm said:
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the one thing they got right was Williams..
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.
As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.
that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year
No and perhaps you need to think through what is being said. We wasted picks on a guy at a time when we weren't winni9ng and he wasn't winning games for us. So now we are down picks in the SPRING and we have to come up with BIG $$$ for the same guy- ie he was a FA coming up... That is stupid!
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In comment 15476845 jvm52106 said:
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In comment 15476834 djm said:
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the one thing they got right was Williams..
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.
As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.
that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year
No and perhaps you need to think through what is being said. We wasted picks on a guy at a time when we weren't winni9ng and he wasn't winning games for us. So now we are down picks in the SPRING and we have to come up with BIG $$$ for the same guy- ie he was a FA coming up... That is stupid!
we didnt waste. it gave us the ability to have him in the building, see what he was like, first crack at negotiating, etc. I dont see that as a waste. again, picks are picks. show me the hit rate on 3-5th rounders....
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In comment 15476834 djm said:
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the one thing they got right was Williams..
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.
As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.
that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year
and crapshoot or not, 3rd and 5th round picks do make teams (if teams do a good job) and that helps your cap. What doesn't help is having to sign mid tier guys to bigger $$$ and have them be the meat of your team.. It also doesn;t help trading and signing a bunch of ST's only guys.. One or two sure, 4-5 no..
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In comment 15476849 BleedBlue said:
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In comment 15476845 jvm52106 said:
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In comment 15476834 djm said:
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the one thing they got right was Williams..
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.
As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.
that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year
No and perhaps you need to think through what is being said. We wasted picks on a guy at a time when we weren't winni9ng and he wasn't winning games for us. So now we are down picks in the SPRING and we have to come up with BIG $$$ for the same guy- ie he was a FA coming up... That is stupid!
we didnt waste. it gave us the ability to have him in the building, see what he was like, first crack at negotiating, etc. I dont see that as a waste. again, picks are picks. show me the hit rate on 3-5th rounders....
again, NO! What you did was you painted yoruself into a corner, sign him or tag him or it is a flat out failure... We literally put ourselves into a position of weakness- LW's team knew we had to meet their demands or look stupid..
They could potentially have gotten LW for 25% less a year earlier, but played it "safe" as they often do, and did not achieve any savings by having paid heavy guaranteed dollars up front with a guaranteed franchise tag. They paid big up front with the tag, that did not factor into the ultimate long-term contract as time served, and they also wound up paying more than they probably would have a year earlier.
There's just very rarely (if ever) a bargain sought by this front office by way of signing a player early. Maybe because they are unable to identify those players in advance?
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In comment 15476853 jvm52106 said:
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In comment 15476849 BleedBlue said:
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In comment 15476845 jvm52106 said:
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In comment 15476834 djm said:
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the one thing they got right was Williams..
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.
As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.
that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year
No and perhaps you need to think through what is being said. We wasted picks on a guy at a time when we weren't winni9ng and he wasn't winning games for us. So now we are down picks in the SPRING and we have to come up with BIG $$$ for the same guy- ie he was a FA coming up... That is stupid!
we didnt waste. it gave us the ability to have him in the building, see what he was like, first crack at negotiating, etc. I dont see that as a waste. again, picks are picks. show me the hit rate on 3-5th rounders....
again, NO! What you did was you painted yoruself into a corner, sign him or tag him or it is a flat out failure... We literally put ourselves into a position of weakness- LW's team knew we had to meet their demands or look stupid..
we can agree to disagree. i think the giants saw it as a chance to preview the player instead of saving a few bucks. we didnt pay THAT much more than he would have gotten on the open market.
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the one thing they got right was Williams..
They could potentially have gotten LW for 25% less a year earlier, but played it "safe" as they often do, and did not achieve any savings by having paid heavy guaranteed dollars up front with a guaranteed franchise tag. They paid big up front with the tag, that did not factor into the ultimate long-term contract as time served, and they also wound up paying more than they probably would have a year earlier.
There's just very rarely (if ever) a bargain sought by this front office by way of signing a player early. Maybe because they are unable to identify those players in advance?
Agreed.. We go wishy washy when we want something and grow a Brontosaurus spine when we want to have an excuse for not making a move (ie- we want a ransom to move down from 2 to 4 because we can draft a guy who ahs been touched by the hand of God).. DG does things on a whim, on his gut and has literally failed at every turn as GM here. It isn't one thing, it is all things.
Significant miss if they could've signed him for $16M or even $17M per, which was top of the market and logic says is likely, that's the consistent takeaway.
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In comment 15476855 BleedBlue said:
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In comment 15476853 jvm52106 said:
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In comment 15476849 BleedBlue said:
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In comment 15476845 jvm52106 said:
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In comment 15476834 djm said:
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the one thing they got right was Williams..
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.
As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.
that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year
No and perhaps you need to think through what is being said. We wasted picks on a guy at a time when we weren't winni9ng and he wasn't winning games for us. So now we are down picks in the SPRING and we have to come up with BIG $$$ for the same guy- ie he was a FA coming up... That is stupid!
we didnt waste. it gave us the ability to have him in the building, see what he was like, first crack at negotiating, etc. I dont see that as a waste. again, picks are picks. show me the hit rate on 3-5th rounders....
again, NO! What you did was you painted yoruself into a corner, sign him or tag him or it is a flat out failure... We literally put ourselves into a position of weakness- LW's team knew we had to meet their demands or look stupid..
we can agree to disagree. i think the giants saw it as a chance to preview the player instead of saving a few bucks. we didnt pay THAT much more than he would have gotten on the open market.
I agree, we can disagree and it was a good non attacking discourse. I see what you are saying but, we do have to factor in the draft picks as part of teh cost and that cost was actually felt over 2 full seasons (draft, then the season of franchise tag and then the contract season). We paid a ton for the guy and it did affect other areas.
Wal-Mart is not a huge company because they have awesome stores. It's because they optimize their operations to wring out every loose penny and deliver low prices and profits.
Amazon - same thing. They're just a website. But they are meticulous about their warehouses, their recommendations, etc.
The Navy SEALs are fit dudes with cool guns. They're a lethal strike force because of their training and attention to detail
The Giants are sloppy, careless, and impulsive. All of these deals where people say "hey it's only a couple extra million for Booker / Stewart / Lavine T / Omameh / Ryan / Rudolph / etc." - that adds up. The NFL is a hyper-competitive landscape where you need to capitalize on every opportunity. Giving away value because you are sloppy and lazy will lead you to where we are now.
And I'm sure there are hundreds more examples of this behind the scenes with player evaluation, scouting, etc.
I disagree with this. I think it’s a highly desired job as long as Mara does this right:
-Usually a wide open division
-Fan base that is mostly desperate for an outside voice and will be patient
-Ownership will be patient
-2 draft picks in the top 10
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would want to take over a team with huge pressure, a rabid media market, and zero cap space with which to fix a disastrous roster?
I disagree with this. I think it’s a highly desired job as long as Mara does this right:
-Usually a wide open division
-Fan base that is mostly desperate for an outside voice and will be patient
-Ownership will be patient
-2 draft picks in the top 10
patient? eh that maybe a stretch LOL
Ryan, SS, maybe KG could be jettisoned without as much damage
I actually might never want to draft a rb in rd 1 ever again
Seriously a good oline line and solid 2-4th rd RB go a hecka a lot farther
At one point DG managed cap well and then he went on a buyers bing and got us nowhere
Seriously he sucks badly. I still thought trading a 3rd for LW was retarded. Just so we could negotiate with him and give him 18 million + per?
Wal-Mart is not a huge company because they have awesome stores. It's because they optimize their operations to wring out every loose penny and deliver low prices and profits.
Amazon - same thing. They're just a website. But they are meticulous about their warehouses, their recommendations, etc.
The Navy SEALs are fit dudes with cool guns. They're a lethal strike force because of their training and attention to detail
The Giants are sloppy, careless, and impulsive. All of these deals where people say "hey it's only a couple extra million for Booker / Stewart / Lavine T / Omameh / Ryan / Rudolph / etc." - that adds up. The NFL is a hyper-competitive landscape where you need to capitalize on every opportunity. Giving away value because you are sloppy and lazy will lead you to where we are now.
And I'm sure there are hundreds more examples of this behind the scenes with player evaluation, scouting, etc.
This is everything that is wrong with our beloved Giants right now, and you did a fantastic job of articulating it.
It's been death by a thousand papercuts for years now.
Pretty sad
Take a look at the Toilolo resigning. Not a huge amount of money but utterly irrational.
Wal-Mart is not a huge company because they have awesome stores. It's because they optimize their operations to wring out every loose penny and deliver low prices and profits.
Amazon - same thing. They're just a website. But they are meticulous about their warehouses, their recommendations, etc.
The Navy SEALs are fit dudes with cool guns. They're a lethal strike force because of their training and attention to detail
The Giants are sloppy, careless, and impulsive. All of these deals where people say "hey it's only a couple extra million for Booker / Stewart / Lavine T / Omameh / Ryan / Rudolph / etc." - that adds up. The NFL is a hyper-competitive landscape where you need to capitalize on every opportunity. Giving away value because you are sloppy and lazy will lead you to where we are now.
And I'm sure there are hundreds more examples of this behind the scenes with player evaluation, scouting, etc.
Best post I've seen in a while.
The Giants are sloppy, careless, and impulsive. All of these deals where people say "hey it's only a couple extra million for Booker / Stewart / Lavine T / Omameh / Ryan / Rudolph / etc." - that adds up.
Unfortunately they also find themselves having to over-pay because they become desperate due to bad drafting and free agent signings from prior seasons. It all starts to snowball and then when you absolutely need to solve for a problem, you have to pay.
Why did we need to sign Rudolph? Because Engram sucks
Why did we need Booker? Because Barkley cannot stay healthy
Wal-Mart is not a huge company because they have awesome stores. It's because they optimize their operations to wring out every loose penny and deliver low prices and profits.
Amazon - same thing. They're just a website. But they are meticulous about their warehouses, their recommendations, etc.
The Navy SEALs are fit dudes with cool guns. They're a lethal strike force because of their training and attention to detail
The Giants are sloppy, careless, and impulsive. All of these deals where people say "hey it's only a couple extra million for Booker / Stewart / Lavine T / Omameh / Ryan / Rudolph / etc." - that adds up. The NFL is a hyper-competitive landscape where you need to capitalize on every opportunity. Giving away value because you are sloppy and lazy will lead you to where we are now.
And I'm sure there are hundreds more examples of this behind the scenes with player evaluation, scouting, etc.
Great post. People like to point at the big whiffs but all teams have those. The Giants certainly have had their share for sure but the most demoralizing thing as a fan is to watch them consistently lose in the margins. Not even lose in the margins, just completely ignore them. They're dumb money.
Totally agree, a team with a QB on a rookie deal and 4 wins in 11 games should not be cap strapped.
Unless they have a horrible GM that overpays players, which is clearly the case in NY right now.
link - ( New Window )
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In comment 15476799 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15476725 djm said:
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lol. How on earth does this lead some of you to bash the GM, hey, have fun.
How do you not understand this by now? Each of these small restructures is like taking the vitals of a very sick person. They are each an indicator of how ill the person really is.
And Gettleman deserves every bit of criticism he gets. As a destructive force he has lapped Ray Handley many times over. I doubt we ever hear him speak publicly as GM again, and starting in January Mara will start a campaign to erase his memory like it's Stalinist Russia.
Gettleman is an incompetent, arrogant, slob. He deserves a humiliating firing but won't get it. A complete fucking jerk.
Enjoy the anger over 758k. I'll bow out, just had to say my piece.
It's not $758k in a vacuum.
It's being so fucking bad at cap management that you need to restructure a player who might NEVER play again so that you can scrape together $379k in current cap space.
That's a fucking disgrace in concept.
Unfortunately,you're right about the bottom line.
Still,If Gates never plays again, I'm cool with Mara forking over 400g to a guy he didn't otherwise have to.
On a team that sucks ass, and will for some time to come, it's little things like this that do matter when you talk about the character of a franchise, in real world terms, and their impact, and what is, and isn't really important. Things like that are why I'm still a fan. The drama.
NY has a way of exposing everyone for what they really are, eventually. Did they really need to pay Rudolph?
Is it a coincidence Giants management are known as poor businessmen but good people? Is Mara a fool? Maybe. I don't think all the financial decisions they make are based solely on business 100%.
Or maybe his foundation for his team ( a reflection of himself, any way you cut it) is based on something else.
Everything comes down to John Mara in the end, now. There's nobody else, not really. He's the constant. Myself, I'm rooting for him, warts and all.
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In comment 15476810 djm said:
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In comment 15476799 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15476725 djm said:
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lol. How on earth does this lead some of you to bash the GM, hey, have fun.
How do you not understand this by now? Each of these small restructures is like taking the vitals of a very sick person. They are each an indicator of how ill the person really is.
And Gettleman deserves every bit of criticism he gets. As a destructive force he has lapped Ray Handley many times over. I doubt we ever hear him speak publicly as GM again, and starting in January Mara will start a campaign to erase his memory like it's Stalinist Russia.
Gettleman is an incompetent, arrogant, slob. He deserves a humiliating firing but won't get it. A complete fucking jerk.
Enjoy the anger over 758k. I'll bow out, just had to say my piece.
It's not $758k in a vacuum.
It's being so fucking bad at cap management that you need to restructure a player who might NEVER play again so that you can scrape together $379k in current cap space.
That's a fucking disgrace in concept.
I'm m reading this and thinking what a prick you are. You're twisted, because Mara poneyed up 400G's to Gates when he may never play again?
Unfortunately,you're right about the bottom line.
Still,If Gates never plays again, I'm cool with Mara forking over 400g to a guy he didn't otherwise have to.
On a team that sucks ass, and will for some time to come, it's little things like this that do matter when you talk about the character of a franchise, in real world terms, and their impact, and what is, and isn't really important. Things like that are why I'm still a fan. The drama.
NY has a way of exposing everyone for what they really are, eventually. Did they really need to pay Rudolph?
Is it a coincidence Giants management are known as poor businessmen but good people? Is Mara a fool? Maybe. I don't think all the financial decisions they make are based solely on business 100%.
Or maybe his foundation for his team ( a reflection of himself, any way you cut it) is based on something else.
Everything comes down to John Mara in the end, now. There's nobody else, not really. He's the constant. Myself, I'm rooting for him, warts and all.
You think they converted his SALARY (which he was going to get this year) to BONUS (which he's also getting this year) as a gift to him?
This isn't new money. It's new accounting. Learn.
All this angst over a trivial move, but for BBI the fact that it is trivial becomes evidence that we are desperate?
Wal-Mart is not a huge company because they have awesome stores. It's because they optimize their operations to wring out every loose penny and deliver low prices and profits.
Amazon - same thing. They're just a website. But they are meticulous about their warehouses, their recommendations, etc.
The Navy SEALs are fit dudes with cool guns. They're a lethal strike force because of their training and attention to detail
The Giants are sloppy, careless, and impulsive. All of these deals where people say "hey it's only a couple extra million for Booker / Stewart / Lavine T / Omameh / Ryan / Rudolph / etc." - that adds up. The NFL is a hyper-competitive landscape where you need to capitalize on every opportunity. Giving away value because you are sloppy and lazy will lead you to where we are now.
And I'm sure there are hundreds more examples of this behind the scenes with player evaluation, scouting, etc.
A lot of peeps seem in sync with this post, but it reads like a load of crap to me. Walmart, Amazon and the Navy Seals have nothing in common. The Seals don't make money but cutting corners, paying low wages to employees on food stamps, and underbidding suppliers. And all that has nothing to do with the NFL. What a crock of sh1t.
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lol. How on earth does this lead some of you to bash the GM, hey, have fun.
All this angst over a trivial move, but for BBI the fact that it is trivial becomes evidence that we are desperate?
Add up all the restructuring moves they HAD to do this fall and you can determine if it's trivial.
It only reduces what you can do in the future, but no big deal as that's a thread you'll read about next year.
But if you need a football-specific analogy, the last successful Giants head coach was notoriously meticulous about details. It might even have crossed the line into obsessive-compulsive or control-freak. . The most successful NFL head and college head coaches have a firm hand on operations and a top-down approach to running a program.
When you look at the roster-building mistakes, contract blunders, on-field self-inflicted errors, it's very difficult to argue that the Giants really do the things we think of as aligned with a good operation.
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lol. How on earth does this lead some of you to bash the GM, hey, have fun.
All this angst over a trivial move, but for BBI the fact that it is trivial becomes evidence that we are desperate?
Every one of these moves, in a vacuum, is trivial. As is every fringe player who gets a contract larger than the market would suggest, or more guaranteed money than necessary, or every time the team keeps a vested veteran (guaranteed for the full year as of week one) at the bottom of the roster where churn is likely, instead of a younger player (not guaranteed for the season).
None of these moves, by themselves, are cap killers. But a repeated trend of inefficiency leads to depleted cap space over time. We pay our kicker too much. We pay our punter too much. We pay our new tight end too much, and we had a chance to rework the contract and declined. None of those contracts are huge, but they're all overpays.
We have converted a lot of salary to bonus this year to cover for DG's spending spree this offseason, so we're effectively buying players on our credit card now, instead of cash. That will come due, along with the backloaded contracts those free agents were given in order to facilitate the spending spree in the first place.
If you thought Reese left this team in a shitty cap position in 2017, you're gonna really hate the cap position that DG has created this year.
If you thought Reese left this team in a shitty cap position in 2017, you're gonna really hate the cap position that DG has created this year.
Yes. Gettleman was able to operate pretty liberally during his first offseason based on the cap space he inherited.
He went shopping for a lot of players back in 2018. Too bad he blew it with all his player evaluations but at least he wasn't up against it.
Ask yourself this, if you don’t believe the Giants have a resource management issue:
- Do the big dollar UFAs play at a high level through 2-3 years?
- Do the Giants have a deep team that weathers the storm well through injuries?
- Do units that play well on the Giants typically do so year over year?
- Do the Giants seem to plug one hole, and find themselves with another?
- How many Giants look like a bargain at their current compensation?
Cap comes and goes?
Are you that dense?
The cap comes and goes?
He just fucked our football team. Some of us actually care.
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The Giants are sloppy, careless, and impulsive. All of these deals where people say "hey it's only a couple extra million for Booker / Stewart / Lavine T / Omameh / Ryan / Rudolph / etc." - that adds up.
Unfortunately they also find themselves having to over-pay because they become desperate due to bad drafting and free agent signings from prior seasons. It all starts to snowball and then when you absolutely need to solve for a problem, you have to pay.
Why did we need to sign Rudolph? Because Engram sucks
Why did we need Booker? Because Barkley cannot stay healthy
Needing to sign a free agent at a particular position does not justify overpaying a free agent at that position. Fair value contracts are still the proper course of action.
With that being said, DJ days are numbered with the Giants and I don't see Jones on the Giants in 2023 if Fromm shows something over the next year.
Hard to understate how bad the Giants have been since this GM has run it but people still find a way.
Then you are constantly over paying trying to be competitive. Sometimes I think it’s wise to look at the the drafts from 2012. Practically noting of long term value.
Look at what TC had starting in 2004. There were a strong base in place.
2018 and 19 are much better. Hit on 22 and 23 we will have good teams even with average QB play.
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In comment 15476595 Gatorade Dunk said:
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The average 2021 cap number of the top 10 QB salaries is $25.04M; Jones counts $7.17M against the 2021 cap. That's almost $18M in implied cap spread that the Giants should have as a luxury while their starting QB is this cheap.
That's the only reason why it's salient to mention the context of Jones in particular being on his rookie contract.
It does not matter that Jones is on his rookie deal. There are LTs with big contracts around the league as well and ER/DEs. He is not about to get a 2nd contract IMHO the way he has been playing. He will play next season and then they will have another "cheap" QB.
I agree that the CAP is a mess and it is so because of a bunch of signings last offseason to fill holes caused by bad drafting and stupid planning by the FO.
It does matter.
In fact, it also matters that Thomas is on his rookie deal. And that Ojulari is on his.
QB, LT, EDGE are three of the most expensive positions in the sport, and the Giants have affordable contracts at each of those spots, yet are up against the cap to such an extent that they have to restructure a player who may or may not ever return so they can free up six figures this year. It's payday loan stuff going on at this point.
Bingo. It’s a joke. Very little talent at any of the premium dollar positions, dreadful record for a decade, and we’re talking about the architect of it all for the last 4 years “retiring” at the end of the year
With that being said, DJ days are numbered with the Giants and I don't see Jones on the Giants in 2023 if Fromm shows something over the next year.
Good point re: Fromm. And they absolutely should give him a look. 2022 is going to be a punted year due to the cap mess. I married a diehard dawgs family and live in Athens. I’d love for Fromm to show something but I can’t see his arm strength, or lack thereof, holding up at MetLife in December
I am actually excited about Fromm and wonder if DJ will be straining his neck just looking over his shoulder knowing he may be on a short lease going forward.