cap strapped they can't even afford to keep the books in the black without making moves like this. Shameful considering how bad we are and have a QB on his first contract.
FYI, based on Gate's numbers, if he isn't deemed likely to be back he is a target to be cut. Dead money would be small and saves a couple of Mil on the Cap. Gano on the otherhand, will be with us next year or we eat almost 5 mil in dead money and save 0 on the cap. In fact we would lose 171k cap wise and eat almost 5 mil in dead money. YIKES!
FYI, based on Gate's numbers, if he isn't deemed likely to be back he is a target to be cut. Dead money would be small and saves a couple of Mil on the Cap. Gano on the otherhand, will be with us next year or we eat almost 5 mil in dead money and save 0 on the cap. In fact we would lose 171k cap wise and eat almost 5 mil in dead money. YIKES!
would want to take over a team with huge pressure, a rabid media market, and zero cap space with which to fix a disastrous roster?
Well, there’s certainly not a lot of pressure from ownership to turn things around fast, and “inheriting a mess” seems to get you a ton of rope.
There’s some house keeping that can be done next year if deemed necessary — Bradberry, Martinez, Ryan, Shepard, Rudolph etc. for instance can be cut and money saved.
Who gives crap about what player is on their rookie deal. There are several. More importantly, there are several players on big contracts, some of whom are not worth it.
Big picture is all that counts and it is a cluster fuck. Abrams needs to go with DG. Fighting for nickels with 6 games to go...
Who gives crap about what player is on their rookie deal. There are several. More importantly, there are several players on big contracts, some of whom are not worth it.
Big picture is all that counts and it is a cluster fuck. Abrams needs to go with DG. Fighting for nickels with 6 games to go...
Who gives a crap? Maybe because QB’s average 8-15% of the cap for most teams, yet Jones is less than 5. So, we have a QB making well below the norm, on a terrible team who still can’t find money, due to terrible spending habits.
this year. Because as mentioned above he is a prime candidate to be cut before 2022.
I'm no cap expert to say the least but the Giants cap crunch is only a 2022 issue. They're fine in 2023.
The Giants have 5 picks in the top 75 right now in the 2022 draft. A new GM won't be able to cut any of the big contracts before next year but all of them can be cut before 2023 if the Giants choose. Jones and Barkley are not under contract for 2023 right now. The Giants are still a dysfunctional mess but they're not in long term cap trouble and with the draft picks a new GM can start a makeover pretty quickly.
Who gives crap about what player is on their rookie deal. There are several. More importantly, there are several players on big contracts, some of whom are not worth it.
Big picture is all that counts and it is a cluster fuck. Abrams needs to go with DG. Fighting for nickels with 6 games to go...
Who gives a crap? Maybe because QB’s average 8-15% of the cap for most teams, yet Jones is less than 5. So, we have a QB making well below the norm, on a terrible team who still can’t find money, due to terrible spending habits.
Again, you are picking on one position. There are several players making a lot more then him. He can be cut and a new QB found, but there are a few players that have years to go before they can be cut without dead money.
Who gives crap about what player is on their rookie deal. There are several. More importantly, there are several players on big contracts, some of whom are not worth it.
Because QB is one of the positions where the disparity between a rookie deal (which is not position-specific) and a second contract (or FA contract) is the largest.
The average 2021 cap number of the top 10 QB salaries is $25.04M; Jones counts $7.17M against the 2021 cap. That's almost $18M in implied cap spread that the Giants should have as a luxury while their starting QB is this cheap.
That's the only reason why it's salient to mention the context of Jones in particular being on his rookie contract.
this year. Because as mentioned above he is a prime candidate to be cut before 2022.
I'm no cap expert to say the least but the Giants cap crunch is only a 2022 issue. They're fine in 2023.
The Giants have 5 picks in the top 75 right now in the 2022 draft. A new GM won't be able to cut any of the big contracts before next year but all of them can be cut before 2023 if the Giants choose. Jones and Barkley are not under contract for 2023 right now. The Giants are still a dysfunctional mess but they're not in long term cap trouble and with the draft picks a new GM can start a makeover pretty quickly.
2022 isn't great but, we currently have very little dead cap money so we can make some moves (dead cap goes up) that frees cap space. Dead Cap is a bit overblown as all that truly matters is how much cap space do you have to work with. It helps to have a LOT of draft picks in a year where you will be cutting a number of folks.
What stinks is that we have guys who have Dead Cap money if cut and NO Cap Savings- Barkley, Gano, Solder.. Gates and Dixon are clear cut possibilities as their Dead money is little and they save over $3mil.
Want to know why Dixon has a job, becuase we can't afford to sign another Punter and he saves us money by letting him go in the off season.
RE: Hopefully that means Gates is getting some of his next year money
The average 2021 cap number of the top 10 QB salaries is $25.04M; Jones counts $7.17M against the 2021 cap. That's almost $18M in implied cap spread that the Giants should have as a luxury while their starting QB is this cheap.
That's the only reason why it's salient to mention the context of Jones in particular being on his rookie contract.
It does not matter that Jones is on his rookie deal. There are LTs with big contracts around the league as well and ER/DEs. He is not about to get a 2nd contract IMHO the way he has been playing. He will play next season and then they will have another "cheap" QB.
I agree that the CAP is a mess and it is so because of a bunch of signings last offseason to fill holes caused by bad drafting and stupid planning by the FO.
RE: RE: RE: RE: And while Jones is on a rookie deal
The average 2021 cap number of the top 10 QB salaries is $25.04M; Jones counts $7.17M against the 2021 cap. That's almost $18M in implied cap spread that the Giants should have as a luxury while their starting QB is this cheap.
That's the only reason why it's salient to mention the context of Jones in particular being on his rookie contract.
It does not matter that Jones is on his rookie deal. There are LTs with big contracts around the league as well and ER/DEs. He is not about to get a 2nd contract IMHO the way he has been playing. He will play next season and then they will have another "cheap" QB.
I agree that the CAP is a mess and it is so because of a bunch of signings last offseason to fill holes caused by bad drafting and stupid planning by the FO.
It does matter.
In fact, it also matters that Thomas is on his rookie deal. And that Ojulari is on his.
QB, LT, EDGE are three of the most expensive positions in the sport, and the Giants have affordable contracts at each of those spots, yet are up against the cap to such an extent that they have to restructure a player who may or may not ever return so they can free up six figures this year. It's payday loan stuff going on at this point.
of Abrams, or any accountant, being a cap guru. Any half ass accountant can put numbers on the spreadsheet and work them around, and/or look ahead.
The cap is almost entirely determined by the decision makers. Agents get the best deals that work for their clients. GMs (or whomever is pulling the strings) decide if they want to make that deal and/or squeeze the best price out of the bargain. The accountant has some input on how the contract should be structured, but structures are pretty straight forward. Gimmicks are only needed if the cap isn't being managed properly.
The Gettleman era is littered with contracts that seem out of proportion to the talent. Big, medium, and small contracts. The DG administration (I'm a firm believer the Giants have a group dynamic, so it's not all DG, although the buck stops there) has been an almost complete disaster.
This is merely accounting. We apparently need to borrow money. Doesn't matter what bank you go to. Overall, the cap space for next year goes down no matter what player you apply the accounting to. It looks better if it is applied to a productive player still on the team, but the bottom line on the spreadsheet is the same.
Now is when you weep about sinking the costs, not when a player is cut.
That’s where my confusion comes from. No way they could know that yet
Well, sure they could. Depends on the nature of the break, initial healing, and other damage. They should have a pretty good idea by now
There was talk of possible amputation. Could he keep his leg and walk? Sure. Can he gain some strength back? Sure. I don’t see how they can make an assessment on if he can regain his form and better on it, yet. Might just be me
cap management, especially as others have noted since we are 4-7 and Jones is still on his rookie contract. To have to make moves like this shows how desperate we are for money just to get through the season. JonC is also right that the cap will be tight again next year.
This. They should all be gone. Just hideous cap management.
Might be a case of being to good at his job. DG comes to him, I want this shiny new toy but I don't have any money, but i really really want it. KA - It's OK Davie, I can find you the money. Let me just move a couple things around.
of Abrams, or any accountant, being a cap guru. Any half ass accountant can put numbers on the spreadsheet and work them around, and/or look ahead.
The cap is almost entirely determined by the decision makers. Agents get the best deals that work for their clients. GMs (or whomever is pulling the strings) decide if they want to make that deal and/or squeeze the best price out of the bargain. The accountant has some input on how the contract should be structured, but structures are pretty straight forward. Gimmicks are only needed if the cap isn't being managed properly.
The Gettleman era is littered with contracts that seem out of proportion to the talent. Big, medium, and small contracts. The DG administration (I'm a firm believer the Giants have a group dynamic, so it's not all DG, although the buck stops there) has been an almost complete disaster.
This past offseason notwithstanding, the massive cap flaw of the Gettleman era has been in the bottom end of the FA pool. So many fungible FAs were signed to meaningful contracts with real guaranteed money that could have been replaced by UDFA. IMO, it's a reflection of his background in pro personnel rather than college scouting, combined with a 1-year plan every year, rather than strategically building a roster to compete on time.
This past year, it was a zig when they're zagging approach. Most of the league put their wallets away because of the cap situation and the Giants recognized an opportunity to pounce on talent. That alone wasn't a mistake; in fact, I'd argue that trading on market inefficiencies is smart, ordinarily. But that doesn't necessarily make the contracts that were issued especially astute. Golladay in particular is a cap albatross thus far. Williams was probably cheaper a year earlier. The Logan Ryan contract coming off the scrap heap is a head-scratcher. Not adjusting Kyle Rudolph's deal for injury when the opportunity was available is criminal.
This. They should all be gone. Just hideous cap management.
Might be a case of being to good at his job. DG comes to him, I want this shiny new toy but I don't have any money, but i really really want it. KA - It's OK Davie, I can find you the money. Let me just move a couple things around.
Literally any cap guy can move money around to fit a signing in. But the good ones also lay out the 2/3/4 year cap impact of those adjustments and defend their cap space accordingly.
If KA is incapable of defending the cap against two different GMs now, how the fuck would Mara ever consider him as GM himself?
Some of us were saying in DG year 1 that the contracts
they were handing out were self-inflicted wounds. Nothing has changed since. They're still making the same mistakes as when paying Nate Solder or Alec Ogletree or even a relatively small move like wildly overpaying for a corpse of Johnathan Stewart.
That’s where my confusion comes from. No way they could know that yet
This has nothing to do with Gates’s future — this is probably just one of the last wells to go to this year.
FYI, based on Gate's numbers, if he isn't deemed likely to be back he is a target to be cut. Dead money would be small and saves a couple of Mil on the Cap. Gano on the otherhand, will be with us next year or we eat almost 5 mil in dead money and save 0 on the cap. In fact we would lose 171k cap wise and eat almost 5 mil in dead money. YIKES!
FYI, based on Gate's numbers, if he isn't deemed likely to be back he is a target to be cut. Dead money would be small and saves a couple of Mil on the Cap. Gano on the otherhand, will be with us next year or we eat almost 5 mil in dead money and save 0 on the cap. In fact we would lose 171k cap wise and eat almost 5 mil in dead money. YIKES!
Giants
$2,908,581 (Cap space) $2,908,581 (Effective Cap space) $165,731,735 (Total) $16,239,924 (Dead Money)
I didn’t catch every roster move yesterday, but they clearly are right up to the edge on this year’s accounting.
I get the general idea - but nuances are lost on me.
I get the general idea - but nuances are lost on me.
What are some of your questions?
Salary Cap - ( New Window )
This. They should all be gone. Just hideous cap management.
Nope not at all, how could you be. It is just where they are.
Well, there’s certainly not a lot of pressure from ownership to turn things around fast, and “inheriting a mess” seems to get you a ton of rope.
There’s some house keeping that can be done next year if deemed necessary — Bradberry, Martinez, Ryan, Shepard, Rudolph etc. for instance can be cut and money saved.
Who gives crap about what player is on their rookie deal. There are several. More importantly, there are several players on big contracts, some of whom are not worth it.
Big picture is all that counts and it is a cluster fuck. Abrams needs to go with DG. Fighting for nickels with 6 games to go...
The Gettleman thesis was 21/22 are the make it happen years.
On paper you look at 22 - 4th year QB, 5th year RB, 3rd year LT, plus big money UFAs at every level of the team except OL and TE.
Gettleman took his best shot and it was a cap gun.
Quote:
Unbelievable
Who gives crap about what player is on their rookie deal. There are several. More importantly, there are several players on big contracts, some of whom are not worth it.
Big picture is all that counts and it is a cluster fuck. Abrams needs to go with DG. Fighting for nickels with 6 games to go...
Who gives a crap? Maybe because QB’s average 8-15% of the cap for most teams, yet Jones is less than 5. So, we have a QB making well below the norm, on a terrible team who still can’t find money, due to terrible spending habits.
I'm no cap expert to say the least but the Giants cap crunch is only a 2022 issue. They're fine in 2023.
The Giants have 5 picks in the top 75 right now in the 2022 draft. A new GM won't be able to cut any of the big contracts before next year but all of them can be cut before 2023 if the Giants choose. Jones and Barkley are not under contract for 2023 right now. The Giants are still a dysfunctional mess but they're not in long term cap trouble and with the draft picks a new GM can start a makeover pretty quickly.
Quote:
In comment 15476562 Saos1n said:
Quote:
Unbelievable
Who gives crap about what player is on their rookie deal. There are several. More importantly, there are several players on big contracts, some of whom are not worth it.
Big picture is all that counts and it is a cluster fuck. Abrams needs to go with DG. Fighting for nickels with 6 games to go...
Who gives a crap? Maybe because QB’s average 8-15% of the cap for most teams, yet Jones is less than 5. So, we have a QB making well below the norm, on a terrible team who still can’t find money, due to terrible spending habits.
Again, you are picking on one position. There are several players making a lot more then him. He can be cut and a new QB found, but there are a few players that have years to go before they can be cut without dead money.
QBs make way too much money anyway.
Hey at least you have options. So there's that.
Quote:
Unbelievable
Who gives crap about what player is on their rookie deal. There are several. More importantly, there are several players on big contracts, some of whom are not worth it.
Because QB is one of the positions where the disparity between a rookie deal (which is not position-specific) and a second contract (or FA contract) is the largest.
The average 2021 cap number of the top 10 QB salaries is $25.04M; Jones counts $7.17M against the 2021 cap. That's almost $18M in implied cap spread that the Giants should have as a luxury while their starting QB is this cheap.
That's the only reason why it's salient to mention the context of Jones in particular being on his rookie contract.
I'm no cap expert to say the least but the Giants cap crunch is only a 2022 issue. They're fine in 2023.
The Giants have 5 picks in the top 75 right now in the 2022 draft. A new GM won't be able to cut any of the big contracts before next year but all of them can be cut before 2023 if the Giants choose. Jones and Barkley are not under contract for 2023 right now. The Giants are still a dysfunctional mess but they're not in long term cap trouble and with the draft picks a new GM can start a makeover pretty quickly.
2022 isn't great but, we currently have very little dead cap money so we can make some moves (dead cap goes up) that frees cap space. Dead Cap is a bit overblown as all that truly matters is how much cap space do you have to work with. It helps to have a LOT of draft picks in a year where you will be cutting a number of folks.
What stinks is that we have guys who have Dead Cap money if cut and NO Cap Savings- Barkley, Gano, Solder.. Gates and Dixon are clear cut possibilities as their Dead money is little and they save over $3mil.
Want to know why Dixon has a job, becuase we can't afford to sign another Punter and he saves us money by letting him go in the off season.
I'm no cap expert to say the least but the Giants cap crunch is only a 2022 issue. They're fine in 2023.
I agree — the Giants will largely have to dance with this girl (or very similar) at prom in 2022.
I hope the new GM starts a controlled burn in 2022, and doesn’t attempt to make room by kicking money down the road into 2023 and beyond.
The average 2021 cap number of the top 10 QB salaries is $25.04M; Jones counts $7.17M against the 2021 cap. That's almost $18M in implied cap spread that the Giants should have as a luxury while their starting QB is this cheap.
That's the only reason why it's salient to mention the context of Jones in particular being on his rookie contract.
It does not matter that Jones is on his rookie deal. There are LTs with big contracts around the league as well and ER/DEs. He is not about to get a 2nd contract IMHO the way he has been playing. He will play next season and then they will have another "cheap" QB.
I agree that the CAP is a mess and it is so because of a bunch of signings last offseason to fill holes caused by bad drafting and stupid planning by the FO.
Quote:
The average 2021 cap number of the top 10 QB salaries is $25.04M; Jones counts $7.17M against the 2021 cap. That's almost $18M in implied cap spread that the Giants should have as a luxury while their starting QB is this cheap.
That's the only reason why it's salient to mention the context of Jones in particular being on his rookie contract.
It does not matter that Jones is on his rookie deal. There are LTs with big contracts around the league as well and ER/DEs. He is not about to get a 2nd contract IMHO the way he has been playing. He will play next season and then they will have another "cheap" QB.
I agree that the CAP is a mess and it is so because of a bunch of signings last offseason to fill holes caused by bad drafting and stupid planning by the FO.
It does matter.
In fact, it also matters that Thomas is on his rookie deal. And that Ojulari is on his.
QB, LT, EDGE are three of the most expensive positions in the sport, and the Giants have affordable contracts at each of those spots, yet are up against the cap to such an extent that they have to restructure a player who may or may not ever return so they can free up six figures this year. It's payday loan stuff going on at this point.
The cap is almost entirely determined by the decision makers. Agents get the best deals that work for their clients. GMs (or whomever is pulling the strings) decide if they want to make that deal and/or squeeze the best price out of the bargain. The accountant has some input on how the contract should be structured, but structures are pretty straight forward. Gimmicks are only needed if the cap isn't being managed properly.
The Gettleman era is littered with contracts that seem out of proportion to the talent. Big, medium, and small contracts. The DG administration (I'm a firm believer the Giants have a group dynamic, so it's not all DG, although the buck stops there) has been an almost complete disaster.
Quote:
They are confident he will play next year?
That’s where my confusion comes from. No way they could know that yet
Well, sure they could. Depends on the nature of the break, initial healing, and other damage. They should have a pretty good idea by now
Now is when you weep about sinking the costs, not when a player is cut.
Quote:
In comment 15476510 Jolly Blue Giant said:
Quote:
They are confident he will play next year?
That’s where my confusion comes from. No way they could know that yet
Well, sure they could. Depends on the nature of the break, initial healing, and other damage. They should have a pretty good idea by now
There was talk of possible amputation. Could he keep his leg and walk? Sure. Can he gain some strength back? Sure. I don’t see how they can make an assessment on if he can regain his form and better on it, yet. Might just be me
Quote:
With a QB on his rookie deal. Fire Abrams too.
This. They should all be gone. Just hideous cap management.
Might be a case of being to good at his job. DG comes to him, I want this shiny new toy but I don't have any money, but i really really want it. KA - It's OK Davie, I can find you the money. Let me just move a couple things around.
The cap is almost entirely determined by the decision makers. Agents get the best deals that work for their clients. GMs (or whomever is pulling the strings) decide if they want to make that deal and/or squeeze the best price out of the bargain. The accountant has some input on how the contract should be structured, but structures are pretty straight forward. Gimmicks are only needed if the cap isn't being managed properly.
The Gettleman era is littered with contracts that seem out of proportion to the talent. Big, medium, and small contracts. The DG administration (I'm a firm believer the Giants have a group dynamic, so it's not all DG, although the buck stops there) has been an almost complete disaster.
This past offseason notwithstanding, the massive cap flaw of the Gettleman era has been in the bottom end of the FA pool. So many fungible FAs were signed to meaningful contracts with real guaranteed money that could have been replaced by UDFA. IMO, it's a reflection of his background in pro personnel rather than college scouting, combined with a 1-year plan every year, rather than strategically building a roster to compete on time.
This past year, it was a zig when they're zagging approach. Most of the league put their wallets away because of the cap situation and the Giants recognized an opportunity to pounce on talent. That alone wasn't a mistake; in fact, I'd argue that trading on market inefficiencies is smart, ordinarily. But that doesn't necessarily make the contracts that were issued especially astute. Golladay in particular is a cap albatross thus far. Williams was probably cheaper a year earlier. The Logan Ryan contract coming off the scrap heap is a head-scratcher. Not adjusting Kyle Rudolph's deal for injury when the opportunity was available is criminal.
Quote:
In comment 15476513 Sean said:
Quote:
With a QB on his rookie deal. Fire Abrams too.
This. They should all be gone. Just hideous cap management.
Might be a case of being to good at his job. DG comes to him, I want this shiny new toy but I don't have any money, but i really really want it. KA - It's OK Davie, I can find you the money. Let me just move a couple things around.
Literally any cap guy can move money around to fit a signing in. But the good ones also lay out the 2/3/4 year cap impact of those adjustments and defend their cap space accordingly.
If KA is incapable of defending the cap against two different GMs now, how the fuck would Mara ever consider him as GM himself?
Much more likely that they just need money and his contract has cushion that they haven't sat on yet.