Awfully convenient. We love to create and condemn the big bad villain around here. Seems to be a pattern developing. Find villain, condemn villain, get a new villain. Rinse. Repeat.
of Abrams, or any accountant, being a cap guru. Any half ass accountant can put numbers on the spreadsheet and work them around, and/or look ahead.
The cap is almost entirely determined by the decision makers. Agents get the best deals that work for their clients. GMs (or whomever is pulling the strings) decide if they want to make that deal and/or squeeze the best price out of the bargain. The accountant has some input on how the contract should be structured, but structures are pretty straight forward. Gimmicks are only needed if the cap isn't being managed properly.
The Gettleman era is littered with contracts that seem out of proportion to the talent. Big, medium, and small contracts. The DG administration (I'm a firm believer the Giants have a group dynamic, so it's not all DG, although the buck stops there) has been an almost complete disaster.
I've said this before, but the Maras might be so backwards that Abrams being able to work in Excel makes him a "cap guru" in their eyes.
that are making the money they should be making. Even Galladay, as highly paid as he is, is going to be the starting WR on this team next season and he should be. He's a good player having a down year because of injury and ineffective QB play.
You're getting all worked up and scared about the cap but many of the cap eaters could have big bounce back years in 2022.
I'm sure my hopeful take will anger some. Go ahead and release hell.
Awfully convenient. We love to create and condemn the big bad villain around here. Seems to be a pattern developing. Find villain, condemn villain, get a new villain. Rinse. Repeat.
Yep, and yet nobody wants to point at John and Chris Mara.
when word was the best offer he had was $10-12M per is the problem. It's a pattern for this bad team and bad management structure. $6-8M less to spend to try and improve the team further, same with the Solder contract. Eventually, you pay the piper and for NYG a bad football roster at the cap is less than ideal, it's ok to just accept the fact.
Awfully convenient. We love to create and condemn the big bad villain around here. Seems to be a pattern developing. Find villain, condemn villain, get a new villain. Rinse. Repeat.
Yep, and yet nobody wants to point at John and Chris Mara.
DG is an easy target and he more than earned that bullseye, don't get me wrong, but 785K of money? Ok then lol...just a bit over reacting I'd say.
And how is this even coming as a shock? Everyone said the Giants had no money this last off-season, then they go out and spend a lot of money anyway, find a way to make the cap work, then implement a typical cap/bookkeeping maneuver here and out come the pitchforks.
lol. How on earth does this lead some of you to bash the GM, hey, have fun.
How do you not understand this by now? Each of these small restructures is like taking the vitals of a very sick person. They are each an indicator of how ill the person really is.
And Gettleman deserves every bit of criticism he gets. As a destructive force he has lapped Ray Handley many times over. I doubt we ever hear him speak publicly as GM again, and starting in January Mara will start a campaign to erase his memory like it's Stalinist Russia.
Gettleman is an incompetent, arrogant, slob. He deserves a humiliating firing but won't get it. A complete fucking jerk.
when word was the best offer he had was $10-12M per is the problem. It's a pattern for this bad team and bad management structure. $6-8M less to spend to try and improve the team further, same with the Solder contract. Eventually, you pay the piper and for NYG a bad football roster at the cap is less than ideal, it's ok to just accept the fact.
Which really makes next years draft SOOOO important. You have to get major quality and quantity out of that draft.
when word was the best offer he had was $10-12M per is the problem. It's a pattern for this bad team and bad management structure. $6-8M less to spend to try and improve the team further, same with the Solder contract. Eventually, you pay the piper and for NYG a bad football roster at the cap is less than ideal, it's ok to just accept the fact.
I don't buy that one bit. So you're saying the Giants just blindly overpaid the WR when they didn't have to?
Or, maybe the only way they were gonna lure him here was to give him the 18 mil? You're implying that they went out of their way to overpay when they didn't have to.
Whatever we go back n forth on this every year and I say the same thing every year. If we drafted better and hired better HCs none of this shit would matter. This starts and ends with Jones and Judge, in that order.
lol. How on earth does this lead some of you to bash the GM, hey, have fun.
How do you not understand this by now? Each of these small restructures is like taking the vitals of a very sick person. They are each an indicator of how ill the person really is.
And Gettleman deserves every bit of criticism he gets. As a destructive force he has lapped Ray Handley many times over. I doubt we ever hear him speak publicly as GM again, and starting in January Mara will start a campaign to erase his memory like it's Stalinist Russia.
Gettleman is an incompetent, arrogant, slob. He deserves a humiliating firing but won't get it. A complete fucking jerk.
Enjoy the anger over 758k. I'll bow out, just had to say my piece.
was the Giants were bidding against themselves, and they blew it and caved. They tried to trade for him in Oct 2020, so his agent knew they were going to back up the Brinks for him last March. O'Brien is clearly trying to leverage his NFC North knowledge too, and early results are poor.
lol. How on earth does this lead some of you to bash the GM, hey, have fun.
How do you not understand this by now? Each of these small restructures is like taking the vitals of a very sick person. They are each an indicator of how ill the person really is.
And Gettleman deserves every bit of criticism he gets. As a destructive force he has lapped Ray Handley many times over. I doubt we ever hear him speak publicly as GM again, and starting in January Mara will start a campaign to erase his memory like it's Stalinist Russia.
Gettleman is an incompetent, arrogant, slob. He deserves a humiliating firing but won't get it. A complete fucking jerk.
Enjoy the anger over 758k. I'll bow out, just had to say my piece.
It's not $758k in a vacuum.
It's being so fucking bad at cap management that you need to restructure a player who might NEVER play again so that you can scrape together $379k in current cap space.
was the Giants were bidding against themselves, and they blew it and caved. They tried to trade for him in Oct 2020, so his agent knew they were going to back up the Brinks for him last March. O'Brien is clearly trying to leverage his NFC North knowledge too, and early results are poor.
So, yeah.
Sounds a bit how like they handled the Williams situation - bidding against themselves because they were stupid enough to trade for him.
was the Giants were bidding against themselves, and they blew it and caved. They tried to trade for him in Oct 2020, so his agent knew they were going to back up the Brinks for him last March. O'Brien is clearly trying to leverage his NFC North knowledge too, and early results are poor.
bad UFA utilization, bad drafting, ugly book closing on Jones, Judge looking overmatched and coaching scared on gamedays ... no wonder the GM and front office is getting bashed. 18-40 should be met with bashing.
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.
As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.
that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year
One of the tenets is you're supposed to be able to find talent more easily, and focus the premium resources on the premium positions (OLB, CB, ILB).
Spending $21M per on a 3-4 DE is far less than ideal if you're sticking to an actual plan and correlating cap structure, imv.
Terrific player, happy to have him. But, I'd rather have Edge talent getting the $.
Could not agree more. Plus, to compound that situation or issue, we have also used a #17 pick the draft for another guy on that same line.. We have spent money and high draft capital on the one part of a 3/4 defense that is usually designed for more blue collar workman like guys, guys who eat blocks, set the edge and hold up in the run game to free up the Lions, the Hunters on the outside. Instead we have done the opposite in team formatting.
RE: RE: RE: so we're gonna kill them for Williams now too?
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.
As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.
that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year
No and perhaps you need to think through what is being said. We wasted picks on a guy at a time when we weren't winni9ng and he wasn't winning games for us. So now we are down picks in the SPRING and we have to come up with BIG $$$ for the same guy- ie he was a FA coming up... That is stupid!
RE: RE: RE: RE: so we're gonna kill them for Williams now too?
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.
As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.
that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year
No and perhaps you need to think through what is being said. We wasted picks on a guy at a time when we weren't winni9ng and he wasn't winning games for us. So now we are down picks in the SPRING and we have to come up with BIG $$$ for the same guy- ie he was a FA coming up... That is stupid!
we didnt waste. it gave us the ability to have him in the building, see what he was like, first crack at negotiating, etc. I dont see that as a waste. again, picks are picks. show me the hit rate on 3-5th rounders....
RE: RE: RE: so we're gonna kill them for Williams now too?
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.
As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.
that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year
and crapshoot or not, 3rd and 5th round picks do make teams (if teams do a good job) and that helps your cap. What doesn't help is having to sign mid tier guys to bigger $$$ and have them be the meat of your team.. It also doesn;t help trading and signing a bunch of ST's only guys.. One or two sure, 4-5 no..
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: so we're gonna kill them for Williams now too?
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.
As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.
that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year
No and perhaps you need to think through what is being said. We wasted picks on a guy at a time when we weren't winni9ng and he wasn't winning games for us. So now we are down picks in the SPRING and we have to come up with BIG $$$ for the same guy- ie he was a FA coming up... That is stupid!
we didnt waste. it gave us the ability to have him in the building, see what he was like, first crack at negotiating, etc. I dont see that as a waste. again, picks are picks. show me the hit rate on 3-5th rounders....
again, NO! What you did was you painted yoruself into a corner, sign him or tag him or it is a flat out failure... We literally put ourselves into a position of weakness- LW's team knew we had to meet their demands or look stupid..
RE: so we're gonna kill them for Williams now too?
They could potentially have gotten LW for 25% less a year earlier, but played it "safe" as they often do, and did not achieve any savings by having paid heavy guaranteed dollars up front with a guaranteed franchise tag. They paid big up front with the tag, that did not factor into the ultimate long-term contract as time served, and they also wound up paying more than they probably would have a year earlier.
There's just very rarely (if ever) a bargain sought by this front office by way of signing a player early. Maybe because they are unable to identify those players in advance?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: so we're gonna kill them for Williams now too?
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.
As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.
that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year
No and perhaps you need to think through what is being said. We wasted picks on a guy at a time when we weren't winni9ng and he wasn't winning games for us. So now we are down picks in the SPRING and we have to come up with BIG $$$ for the same guy- ie he was a FA coming up... That is stupid!
we didnt waste. it gave us the ability to have him in the building, see what he was like, first crack at negotiating, etc. I dont see that as a waste. again, picks are picks. show me the hit rate on 3-5th rounders....
again, NO! What you did was you painted yoruself into a corner, sign him or tag him or it is a flat out failure... We literally put ourselves into a position of weakness- LW's team knew we had to meet their demands or look stupid..
we can agree to disagree. i think the giants saw it as a chance to preview the player instead of saving a few bucks. we didnt pay THAT much more than he would have gotten on the open market.
RE: RE: so we're gonna kill them for Williams now too?
They could potentially have gotten LW for 25% less a year earlier, but played it "safe" as they often do, and did not achieve any savings by having paid heavy guaranteed dollars up front with a guaranteed franchise tag. They paid big up front with the tag, that did not factor into the ultimate long-term contract as time served, and they also wound up paying more than they probably would have a year earlier.
There's just very rarely (if ever) a bargain sought by this front office by way of signing a player early. Maybe because they are unable to identify those players in advance?
Agreed.. We go wishy washy when we want something and grow a Brontosaurus spine when we want to have an excuse for not making a move (ie- we want a ransom to move down from 2 to 4 because we can draft a guy who ahs been touched by the hand of God).. DG does things on a whim, on his gut and has literally failed at every turn as GM here. It isn't one thing, it is all things.
Well, NYG underestimated LW's value at least with his agents
word was out there they gauged it a $12-13M per, while LW's camp was at $15-16M.
Significant miss if they could've signed him for $16M or even $17M per, which was top of the market and logic says is likely, that's the consistent takeaway.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: so we're gonna kill them for Williams now too?
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.
As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.
that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year
No and perhaps you need to think through what is being said. We wasted picks on a guy at a time when we weren't winni9ng and he wasn't winning games for us. So now we are down picks in the SPRING and we have to come up with BIG $$$ for the same guy- ie he was a FA coming up... That is stupid!
we didnt waste. it gave us the ability to have him in the building, see what he was like, first crack at negotiating, etc. I dont see that as a waste. again, picks are picks. show me the hit rate on 3-5th rounders....
again, NO! What you did was you painted yoruself into a corner, sign him or tag him or it is a flat out failure... We literally put ourselves into a position of weakness- LW's team knew we had to meet their demands or look stupid..
we can agree to disagree. i think the giants saw it as a chance to preview the player instead of saving a few bucks. we didnt pay THAT much more than he would have gotten on the open market.
I agree, we can disagree and it was a good non attacking discourse. I see what you are saying but, we do have to factor in the draft picks as part of teh cost and that cost was actually felt over 2 full seasons (draft, then the season of franchise tag and then the contract season). We paid a ton for the guy and it did affect other areas.
Great organizations have a huge amount. The Giants have zero.
Wal-Mart is not a huge company because they have awesome stores. It's because they optimize their operations to wring out every loose penny and deliver low prices and profits.
Amazon - same thing. They're just a website. But they are meticulous about their warehouses, their recommendations, etc.
The Navy SEALs are fit dudes with cool guns. They're a lethal strike force because of their training and attention to detail
The Giants are sloppy, careless, and impulsive. All of these deals where people say "hey it's only a couple extra million for Booker / Stewart / Lavine T / Omameh / Ryan / Rudolph / etc." - that adds up. The NFL is a hyper-competitive landscape where you need to capitalize on every opportunity. Giving away value because you are sloppy and lazy will lead you to where we are now.
And I'm sure there are hundreds more examples of this behind the scenes with player evaluation, scouting, etc.
would want to take over a team with huge pressure, a rabid media market, and zero cap space with which to fix a disastrous roster?
I disagree with this. I think it’s a highly desired job as long as Mara does this right:
-Usually a wide open division
-Fan base that is mostly desperate for an outside voice and will be patient
-Ownership will be patient
-2 draft picks in the top 10
would want to take over a team with huge pressure, a rabid media market, and zero cap space with which to fix a disastrous roster?
I disagree with this. I think it’s a highly desired job as long as Mara does this right:
-Usually a wide open division
-Fan base that is mostly desperate for an outside voice and will be patient
-Ownership will be patient
-2 draft picks in the top 10
And if god forbid GM doesn’t extend jones or saquon , we could really have a much better cap situation in 2023
Ryan, SS, maybe KG could be jettisoned without as much damage
I actually might never want to draft a rb in rd 1 ever again
Seriously a good oline line and solid 2-4th rd RB go a hecka a lot farther
At one point DG managed cap well and then he went on a buyers bing and got us nowhere
Seriously he sucks badly. I still thought trading a 3rd for LW was retarded. Just so we could negotiate with him and give him 18 million + per?
Great organizations have a huge amount. The Giants have zero.
Wal-Mart is not a huge company because they have awesome stores. It's because they optimize their operations to wring out every loose penny and deliver low prices and profits.
Amazon - same thing. They're just a website. But they are meticulous about their warehouses, their recommendations, etc.
The Navy SEALs are fit dudes with cool guns. They're a lethal strike force because of their training and attention to detail
The Giants are sloppy, careless, and impulsive. All of these deals where people say "hey it's only a couple extra million for Booker / Stewart / Lavine T / Omameh / Ryan / Rudolph / etc." - that adds up. The NFL is a hyper-competitive landscape where you need to capitalize on every opportunity. Giving away value because you are sloppy and lazy will lead you to where we are now.
And I'm sure there are hundreds more examples of this behind the scenes with player evaluation, scouting, etc.
This is everything that is wrong with our beloved Giants right now, and you did a fantastic job of articulating it.
It's been death by a thousand papercuts for years now.
Great organizations have a huge amount. The Giants have zero.
Wal-Mart is not a huge company because they have awesome stores. It's because they optimize their operations to wring out every loose penny and deliver low prices and profits.
Amazon - same thing. They're just a website. But they are meticulous about their warehouses, their recommendations, etc.
The Navy SEALs are fit dudes with cool guns. They're a lethal strike force because of their training and attention to detail
The Giants are sloppy, careless, and impulsive. All of these deals where people say "hey it's only a couple extra million for Booker / Stewart / Lavine T / Omameh / Ryan / Rudolph / etc." - that adds up. The NFL is a hyper-competitive landscape where you need to capitalize on every opportunity. Giving away value because you are sloppy and lazy will lead you to where we are now.
And I'm sure there are hundreds more examples of this behind the scenes with player evaluation, scouting, etc.
The Giants are sloppy, careless, and impulsive. All of these deals where people say "hey it's only a couple extra million for Booker / Stewart / Lavine T / Omameh / Ryan / Rudolph / etc." - that adds up.
Unfortunately they also find themselves having to over-pay because they become desperate due to bad drafting and free agent signings from prior seasons. It all starts to snowball and then when you absolutely need to solve for a problem, you have to pay.
Why did we need to sign Rudolph? Because Engram sucks
Why did we need Booker? Because Barkley cannot stay healthy
What do you mean?
Every team does this!
Awfully convenient. We love to create and condemn the big bad villain around here. Seems to be a pattern developing. Find villain, condemn villain, get a new villain. Rinse. Repeat.
The cap is almost entirely determined by the decision makers. Agents get the best deals that work for their clients. GMs (or whomever is pulling the strings) decide if they want to make that deal and/or squeeze the best price out of the bargain. The accountant has some input on how the contract should be structured, but structures are pretty straight forward. Gimmicks are only needed if the cap isn't being managed properly.
The Gettleman era is littered with contracts that seem out of proportion to the talent. Big, medium, and small contracts. The DG administration (I'm a firm believer the Giants have a group dynamic, so it's not all DG, although the buck stops there) has been an almost complete disaster.
I've said this before, but the Maras might be so backwards that Abrams being able to work in Excel makes him a "cap guru" in their eyes.
You're getting all worked up and scared about the cap but many of the cap eaters could have big bounce back years in 2022.
I'm sure my hopeful take will anger some. Go ahead and release hell.
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goes where it belongs, to the GM.
Awfully convenient. We love to create and condemn the big bad villain around here. Seems to be a pattern developing. Find villain, condemn villain, get a new villain. Rinse. Repeat.
Yep, and yet nobody wants to point at John and Chris Mara.
Quote:
In comment 15476740 JonC said:
Quote:
goes where it belongs, to the GM.
Awfully convenient. We love to create and condemn the big bad villain around here. Seems to be a pattern developing. Find villain, condemn villain, get a new villain. Rinse. Repeat.
Yep, and yet nobody wants to point at John and Chris Mara.
DG is an easy target and he more than earned that bullseye, don't get me wrong, but 785K of money? Ok then lol...just a bit over reacting I'd say.
And how is this even coming as a shock? Everyone said the Giants had no money this last off-season, then they go out and spend a lot of money anyway, find a way to make the cap work, then implement a typical cap/bookkeeping maneuver here and out come the pitchforks.
We're talking about 758K.
How do you not understand this by now? Each of these small restructures is like taking the vitals of a very sick person. They are each an indicator of how ill the person really is.
And Gettleman deserves every bit of criticism he gets. As a destructive force he has lapped Ray Handley many times over. I doubt we ever hear him speak publicly as GM again, and starting in January Mara will start a campaign to erase his memory like it's Stalinist Russia.
Gettleman is an incompetent, arrogant, slob. He deserves a humiliating firing but won't get it. A complete fucking jerk.
Which really makes next years draft SOOOO important. You have to get major quality and quantity out of that draft.
I don't buy that one bit. So you're saying the Giants just blindly overpaid the WR when they didn't have to?
Or, maybe the only way they were gonna lure him here was to give him the 18 mil? You're implying that they went out of their way to overpay when they didn't have to.
Whatever we go back n forth on this every year and I say the same thing every year. If we drafted better and hired better HCs none of this shit would matter. This starts and ends with Jones and Judge, in that order.
Quote:
lol. How on earth does this lead some of you to bash the GM, hey, have fun.
How do you not understand this by now? Each of these small restructures is like taking the vitals of a very sick person. They are each an indicator of how ill the person really is.
And Gettleman deserves every bit of criticism he gets. As a destructive force he has lapped Ray Handley many times over. I doubt we ever hear him speak publicly as GM again, and starting in January Mara will start a campaign to erase his memory like it's Stalinist Russia.
Gettleman is an incompetent, arrogant, slob. He deserves a humiliating firing but won't get it. A complete fucking jerk.
Enjoy the anger over 758k. I'll bow out, just had to say my piece.
So, yeah.
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In comment 15476725 djm said:
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lol. How on earth does this lead some of you to bash the GM, hey, have fun.
How do you not understand this by now? Each of these small restructures is like taking the vitals of a very sick person. They are each an indicator of how ill the person really is.
And Gettleman deserves every bit of criticism he gets. As a destructive force he has lapped Ray Handley many times over. I doubt we ever hear him speak publicly as GM again, and starting in January Mara will start a campaign to erase his memory like it's Stalinist Russia.
Gettleman is an incompetent, arrogant, slob. He deserves a humiliating firing but won't get it. A complete fucking jerk.
Enjoy the anger over 758k. I'll bow out, just had to say my piece.
It's not $758k in a vacuum.
It's being so fucking bad at cap management that you need to restructure a player who might NEVER play again so that you can scrape together $379k in current cap space.
That's a fucking disgrace in concept.
Agree, the Giants will be ultimately be under the cap and field a team in 2022.
The dire part is the players on the field don't win.
So, yeah.
Sounds a bit how like they handled the Williams situation - bidding against themselves because they were stupid enough to trade for him.
So, yeah.
What an incredibly incompetent franchise.
No, it wasn't.
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
Spending $21M per on a 3-4 DE is far less than ideal if you're sticking to an actual plan and correlating cap structure, imv.
Terrific player, happy to have him. But, I'd rather have Edge talent getting the $.
Paying good players great money is probably not the best example of getting something right.
But at least you see they probably only got one thing right.
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the one thing they got right was Williams..
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.
As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.
that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year
Spending $21M per on a 3-4 DE is far less than ideal if you're sticking to an actual plan and correlating cap structure, imv.
Terrific player, happy to have him. But, I'd rather have Edge talent getting the $.
Could not agree more. Plus, to compound that situation or issue, we have also used a #17 pick the draft for another guy on that same line.. We have spent money and high draft capital on the one part of a 3/4 defense that is usually designed for more blue collar workman like guys, guys who eat blocks, set the edge and hold up in the run game to free up the Lions, the Hunters on the outside. Instead we have done the opposite in team formatting.
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In comment 15476834 djm said:
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the one thing they got right was Williams..
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.
As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.
that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year
No and perhaps you need to think through what is being said. We wasted picks on a guy at a time when we weren't winni9ng and he wasn't winning games for us. So now we are down picks in the SPRING and we have to come up with BIG $$$ for the same guy- ie he was a FA coming up... That is stupid!
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In comment 15476845 jvm52106 said:
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In comment 15476834 djm said:
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the one thing they got right was Williams..
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.
As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.
that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year
No and perhaps you need to think through what is being said. We wasted picks on a guy at a time when we weren't winni9ng and he wasn't winning games for us. So now we are down picks in the SPRING and we have to come up with BIG $$$ for the same guy- ie he was a FA coming up... That is stupid!
we didnt waste. it gave us the ability to have him in the building, see what he was like, first crack at negotiating, etc. I dont see that as a waste. again, picks are picks. show me the hit rate on 3-5th rounders....
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In comment 15476834 djm said:
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the one thing they got right was Williams..
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.
As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.
that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year
and crapshoot or not, 3rd and 5th round picks do make teams (if teams do a good job) and that helps your cap. What doesn't help is having to sign mid tier guys to bigger $$$ and have them be the meat of your team.. It also doesn;t help trading and signing a bunch of ST's only guys.. One or two sure, 4-5 no..
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In comment 15476849 BleedBlue said:
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In comment 15476845 jvm52106 said:
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In comment 15476834 djm said:
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the one thing they got right was Williams..
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.
As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.
that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year
No and perhaps you need to think through what is being said. We wasted picks on a guy at a time when we weren't winni9ng and he wasn't winning games for us. So now we are down picks in the SPRING and we have to come up with BIG $$$ for the same guy- ie he was a FA coming up... That is stupid!
we didnt waste. it gave us the ability to have him in the building, see what he was like, first crack at negotiating, etc. I dont see that as a waste. again, picks are picks. show me the hit rate on 3-5th rounders....
again, NO! What you did was you painted yoruself into a corner, sign him or tag him or it is a flat out failure... We literally put ourselves into a position of weakness- LW's team knew we had to meet their demands or look stupid..
They could potentially have gotten LW for 25% less a year earlier, but played it "safe" as they often do, and did not achieve any savings by having paid heavy guaranteed dollars up front with a guaranteed franchise tag. They paid big up front with the tag, that did not factor into the ultimate long-term contract as time served, and they also wound up paying more than they probably would have a year earlier.
There's just very rarely (if ever) a bargain sought by this front office by way of signing a player early. Maybe because they are unable to identify those players in advance?
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In comment 15476853 jvm52106 said:
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In comment 15476849 BleedBlue said:
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In comment 15476845 jvm52106 said:
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In comment 15476834 djm said:
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the one thing they got right was Williams..
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.
As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.
that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year
No and perhaps you need to think through what is being said. We wasted picks on a guy at a time when we weren't winni9ng and he wasn't winning games for us. So now we are down picks in the SPRING and we have to come up with BIG $$$ for the same guy- ie he was a FA coming up... That is stupid!
we didnt waste. it gave us the ability to have him in the building, see what he was like, first crack at negotiating, etc. I dont see that as a waste. again, picks are picks. show me the hit rate on 3-5th rounders....
again, NO! What you did was you painted yoruself into a corner, sign him or tag him or it is a flat out failure... We literally put ourselves into a position of weakness- LW's team knew we had to meet their demands or look stupid..
we can agree to disagree. i think the giants saw it as a chance to preview the player instead of saving a few bucks. we didnt pay THAT much more than he would have gotten on the open market.
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the one thing they got right was Williams..
They could potentially have gotten LW for 25% less a year earlier, but played it "safe" as they often do, and did not achieve any savings by having paid heavy guaranteed dollars up front with a guaranteed franchise tag. They paid big up front with the tag, that did not factor into the ultimate long-term contract as time served, and they also wound up paying more than they probably would have a year earlier.
There's just very rarely (if ever) a bargain sought by this front office by way of signing a player early. Maybe because they are unable to identify those players in advance?
Agreed.. We go wishy washy when we want something and grow a Brontosaurus spine when we want to have an excuse for not making a move (ie- we want a ransom to move down from 2 to 4 because we can draft a guy who ahs been touched by the hand of God).. DG does things on a whim, on his gut and has literally failed at every turn as GM here. It isn't one thing, it is all things.
Significant miss if they could've signed him for $16M or even $17M per, which was top of the market and logic says is likely, that's the consistent takeaway.
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In comment 15476855 BleedBlue said:
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In comment 15476853 jvm52106 said:
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In comment 15476849 BleedBlue said:
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In comment 15476845 jvm52106 said:
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In comment 15476834 djm said:
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the one thing they got right was Williams..
The player might be good but the deal and the timing for it was not good. He wasn't and still isn't the difference in our team winning or losing. We wasted draft picks to get him and then had to spend big $$$ to keep him 1 year and even bigger to sign him longer term. This was a bad play.
wasted? it was a 3 and 4 or 5. youguys act like draft picks are gods gift to men. draft picks are fucking crapshoots. williams is a very good player on a team that didnt have many good players. it was a great move.
As for the cap issues. you guys sit here and act like its JUST DG. the maras agree to teh spending. abrams says okay to the spending.judge says get me this guy. ALL of them field the blame.
that being said, the cap is easy to maneuver and I am not worried about it at all. The giants felt that jones would improve (so did many) and they felt the OL would come together nicely. nobody really expected us to lose 2 interior OL for the season including our best OL in gates. The nfl you can turn shit around quickly. giants have a talented roster. they just need more OL help and to figure out the QB position.
IMO, edge and OL in round 1 and go back to OL in round 2. run it another year with danny. ifwe suck again, then you move on after next year
No and perhaps you need to think through what is being said. We wasted picks on a guy at a time when we weren't winni9ng and he wasn't winning games for us. So now we are down picks in the SPRING and we have to come up with BIG $$$ for the same guy- ie he was a FA coming up... That is stupid!
we didnt waste. it gave us the ability to have him in the building, see what he was like, first crack at negotiating, etc. I dont see that as a waste. again, picks are picks. show me the hit rate on 3-5th rounders....
again, NO! What you did was you painted yoruself into a corner, sign him or tag him or it is a flat out failure... We literally put ourselves into a position of weakness- LW's team knew we had to meet their demands or look stupid..
we can agree to disagree. i think the giants saw it as a chance to preview the player instead of saving a few bucks. we didnt pay THAT much more than he would have gotten on the open market.
I agree, we can disagree and it was a good non attacking discourse. I see what you are saying but, we do have to factor in the draft picks as part of teh cost and that cost was actually felt over 2 full seasons (draft, then the season of franchise tag and then the contract season). We paid a ton for the guy and it did affect other areas.
Wal-Mart is not a huge company because they have awesome stores. It's because they optimize their operations to wring out every loose penny and deliver low prices and profits.
Amazon - same thing. They're just a website. But they are meticulous about their warehouses, their recommendations, etc.
The Navy SEALs are fit dudes with cool guns. They're a lethal strike force because of their training and attention to detail
The Giants are sloppy, careless, and impulsive. All of these deals where people say "hey it's only a couple extra million for Booker / Stewart / Lavine T / Omameh / Ryan / Rudolph / etc." - that adds up. The NFL is a hyper-competitive landscape where you need to capitalize on every opportunity. Giving away value because you are sloppy and lazy will lead you to where we are now.
And I'm sure there are hundreds more examples of this behind the scenes with player evaluation, scouting, etc.
I disagree with this. I think it’s a highly desired job as long as Mara does this right:
-Usually a wide open division
-Fan base that is mostly desperate for an outside voice and will be patient
-Ownership will be patient
-2 draft picks in the top 10
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would want to take over a team with huge pressure, a rabid media market, and zero cap space with which to fix a disastrous roster?
I disagree with this. I think it’s a highly desired job as long as Mara does this right:
-Usually a wide open division
-Fan base that is mostly desperate for an outside voice and will be patient
-Ownership will be patient
-2 draft picks in the top 10
patient? eh that maybe a stretch LOL
Ryan, SS, maybe KG could be jettisoned without as much damage
I actually might never want to draft a rb in rd 1 ever again
Seriously a good oline line and solid 2-4th rd RB go a hecka a lot farther
At one point DG managed cap well and then he went on a buyers bing and got us nowhere
Seriously he sucks badly. I still thought trading a 3rd for LW was retarded. Just so we could negotiate with him and give him 18 million + per?
Wal-Mart is not a huge company because they have awesome stores. It's because they optimize their operations to wring out every loose penny and deliver low prices and profits.
Amazon - same thing. They're just a website. But they are meticulous about their warehouses, their recommendations, etc.
The Navy SEALs are fit dudes with cool guns. They're a lethal strike force because of their training and attention to detail
The Giants are sloppy, careless, and impulsive. All of these deals where people say "hey it's only a couple extra million for Booker / Stewart / Lavine T / Omameh / Ryan / Rudolph / etc." - that adds up. The NFL is a hyper-competitive landscape where you need to capitalize on every opportunity. Giving away value because you are sloppy and lazy will lead you to where we are now.
And I'm sure there are hundreds more examples of this behind the scenes with player evaluation, scouting, etc.
This is everything that is wrong with our beloved Giants right now, and you did a fantastic job of articulating it.
It's been death by a thousand papercuts for years now.
Pretty sad
Take a look at the Toilolo resigning. Not a huge amount of money but utterly irrational.
Wal-Mart is not a huge company because they have awesome stores. It's because they optimize their operations to wring out every loose penny and deliver low prices and profits.
Amazon - same thing. They're just a website. But they are meticulous about their warehouses, their recommendations, etc.
The Navy SEALs are fit dudes with cool guns. They're a lethal strike force because of their training and attention to detail
The Giants are sloppy, careless, and impulsive. All of these deals where people say "hey it's only a couple extra million for Booker / Stewart / Lavine T / Omameh / Ryan / Rudolph / etc." - that adds up. The NFL is a hyper-competitive landscape where you need to capitalize on every opportunity. Giving away value because you are sloppy and lazy will lead you to where we are now.
And I'm sure there are hundreds more examples of this behind the scenes with player evaluation, scouting, etc.
Best post I've seen in a while.
The Giants are sloppy, careless, and impulsive. All of these deals where people say "hey it's only a couple extra million for Booker / Stewart / Lavine T / Omameh / Ryan / Rudolph / etc." - that adds up.
Unfortunately they also find themselves having to over-pay because they become desperate due to bad drafting and free agent signings from prior seasons. It all starts to snowball and then when you absolutely need to solve for a problem, you have to pay.
Why did we need to sign Rudolph? Because Engram sucks
Why did we need Booker? Because Barkley cannot stay healthy