The general opinion seems to be that the Giants have a bad cap situation. I am certainly no expert, but a look at the numbers says to me that the Giants have the best cap situation in the NFCE. I have a nice spreadsheet, but don't know how to copy it into the thread. I will summarize (all numbers from over the cap).
Cap Space under contract 2021-2024 (top 51 including dead money):
NYG $543,578,727
Philly $732,024,036
Wash $560,627,017
Dallas $766,275,607
Cap Space under contract 2022-2024 (top 51 including dead money):
NYG $372,942,927
Philly $550,486,160
Wash $380,343,722
Dallas $573,232,408
The cap space this year or next year doesn't matter, since it is always possible to bring forward space. Indeed future cap space is better, since it is available for longer (i.e. this year's cap space has to be used by end of year except for some carryforward). The total available is the critical question. It is clear to me that the Giants have not "brought space forward" in the recent deals and so have more space in the future.
What should also be obvious is that the Giants and Redskins both benefit from having no big quarterback hit. What is frightening for Philly (i.e. an obvious good before God and man) is that their obligations are huge and they have no QB they are paying at the going rate.
This is not a defense of Gettlemen (I would have fired him for at least the following - Solder/Omaneh, Williams, Barkley). He has to go. I have no idea if Abrams is good at his job, but just on a numbers basis the cap is in pretty good shape, compared to the rest of the NFCE. No idea how it compares to other teams.
I think it's a no...right?
Yes, our contract numbers seem lower in 23, 24 BUT:
We have to do something Jones before then (take the 5th year option or we get rid of him), Barkley is on his final year in 2022 so we either sign long term (dear god no) or we are looking for a replacement, we essentially have NO TE's next year as no way Rudolph is back at that cap hit, our line is awful and needs major upgrades BUT Solder is still on the books for 22 at 4 Mil, WH will be heading off, we most likely need a Center, we have huge cap hits for Bradberry and Ryan in 2022 and Ryan we cannot cut or eat a TON of money so his deal gets restructured most likely, eating up money in 23,24, Dexter Lawrence will need to be signed or he moves on and we need more help on the DL and oh yeah, LW will be looking for a new deal in 23 so either that gets done or we need more DL help...
The only CAP numbers that matter right now are 21 and 22!
I think it's a no...right?
Not necessarily a no... If we dealt Jones and Barkley, let some vets go who should be gone and backload a contract then we could do it.
BUT
we then probably gave up draft capital and cannot supply said veteran with the players needed to succeed.
Quote:
is there room for a big money QB like a Rodgers/WIlson for big money for three-five years?
I think it's a no...right?
Not necessarily a no... If we dealt Jones and Barkley, let some vets go who should be gone and backload a contract then we could do it.
BUT
we then probably gave up draft capital and cannot supply said veteran with the players needed to succeed.
Exactly. No Top tier QB is coming to a team with a shitty OL and limited Run game. You need to keep the draft capital and possibly raise more and go into this draft building OL and DE LB
Quote:
In comment 15476872 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
is there room for a big money QB like a Rodgers/WIlson for big money for three-five years?
I think it's a no...right?
Not necessarily a no... If we dealt Jones and Barkley, let some vets go who should be gone and backload a contract then we could do it.
BUT
we then probably gave up draft capital and cannot supply said veteran with the players needed to succeed.
Exactly. No Top tier QB is coming to a team with a shitty OL and limited Run game. You need to keep the draft capital and possibly raise more and go into this draft building OL and DE LB
if you put rodgers on this team with our WRs and RBs, we are INSTANTLY better. even with the avg at best OL play. rodgers is one of the best in the game...he does more with less.
even taking barkley away, our weapons on offense are solid and whatever draft capital we have left would be spent on edge and OL.
Backloading a contract for QB in their 30s seems like the only option...if I'm not mistaken.
Backloading a contract for QB in their 30s seems like the only option...if I'm not mistaken.
depending on the pieces moved youre probably right...
I expect shepard to be moved one way or another, maybe a restructure or two happens. Im not too worried about the cap...the cowboys throw 100mill on offensive players all the time and they are in good shape lol. the cap can be manipulated
Of the players who are going to have their contracts expire, who would you consider keeping?
Quote:
In comment 15476884 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
In comment 15476872 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
is there room for a big money QB like a Rodgers/WIlson for big money for three-five years?
I think it's a no...right?
Not necessarily a no... If we dealt Jones and Barkley, let some vets go who should be gone and backload a contract then we could do it.
BUT
we then probably gave up draft capital and cannot supply said veteran with the players needed to succeed.
Exactly. No Top tier QB is coming to a team with a shitty OL and limited Run game. You need to keep the draft capital and possibly raise more and go into this draft building OL and DE LB
if you put rodgers on this team with our WRs and RBs, we are INSTANTLY better. even with the avg at best OL play. rodgers is one of the best in the game...he does more with less.
even taking barkley away, our weapons on offense are solid and whatever draft capital we have left would be spent on edge and OL.
Rodgers has one of the best lines in the league next to New England No way he would ever come here... As for making the team better sure until he got hurt. which is exactly what would happen.
What do you think brought us to this cap crisis other than bringing cap space forward?
I get it, a lot of fans don't understand the cap. A good idea might be to STFU about it though instead of sounding like a complete imbecile.
Jason at OTC has a nice (but imperfect) measure that tracks effective cap space — it takes all of the current cap holds and adds the minimum spend required to field a team.
So if you jump to 2023, the Giants effectively have 75M in cap space. That’s because the Giants have 27 players under contract (really 26 because Bradberry now has a void year). Of course getting to 53 players will cost much more than that.
The prevailing view in fixed resource models (like the NFL) among the business analytics community is the definition of success is do you have enough model in each cycle to succeed.
The resounding conclusion for the Gettleman Giants? Nope.
I was under the assumption that other teams also need to resign players. If I was wrong about that please explain how.
Quote:
In comment 15476890 TheBlueprintNC said:
Quote:
In comment 15476884 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
In comment 15476872 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
is there room for a big money QB like a Rodgers/WIlson for big money for three-five years?
I think it's a no...right?
Not necessarily a no... If we dealt Jones and Barkley, let some vets go who should be gone and backload a contract then we could do it.
BUT
we then probably gave up draft capital and cannot supply said veteran with the players needed to succeed.
Exactly. No Top tier QB is coming to a team with a shitty OL and limited Run game. You need to keep the draft capital and possibly raise more and go into this draft building OL and DE LB
if you put rodgers on this team with our WRs and RBs, we are INSTANTLY better. even with the avg at best OL play. rodgers is one of the best in the game...he does more with less.
even taking barkley away, our weapons on offense are solid and whatever draft capital we have left would be spent on edge and OL.
Rodgers has one of the best lines in the league next to New England No way he would ever come here... As for making the team better sure until he got hurt. which is exactly what would happen.
Rodgers has been without his LT the whole season. Maybe what you are seeing is a QB that knows how to make more out of less with an OL in flux. And rodgers has certainly had to cope with subpar line play in the past.
What do you think brought us to this cap crisis other than bringing cap space forward?
I get it, a lot of fans don't understand the cap. A good idea might be to STFU about it though instead of sounding like a complete imbecile.
I think civility might be a decent goal, but since you seem incapable I will at least use small words so your small brain has a chance to keep up. (civility by the way is the sense of speaking and being polite to one another).
All teams bring money forward. This was designed to look at how teams in the NFCE compare. Bringing money forward leaves you with higher cap hits in the future (if this math is too complicated for you let me know and I will explain it). So if you have brought money forward you will have bigger cap hits in the future. Therefore, by itself, lower total cap numbers are evidence you have not brought money forward as much as others. Additionally, the Giants have the lowest amount of dead money on the books, and the lowest amount of potential dead money over the next three years. So on a comparitive basis the Giants seem to have done the least amount of bringing money forward. You might want to gather some facts before you spout.
Helpful hint - imbecile (n) - A stupid person. You might want to familiarize yourself with the word, since I don't think it means what you think it means.
While there is a mix of good and bad in there, and we look to be hamstrung this coming free agent season, I am not enthusiastic about new FA signings especially given the draft capital we have. The idea of having a ton of cap space for Arron Rodgers is a pipe dream. If we are rebuilding, we need draft picks and short term FAs.
So I am cool with the FAs we have and a lot of draft picks, and knowing the big contracts wash out soon enough, though not next year. I think that is agreeing with the OP.
Quote:
because the OP is fucking lost at the "it's always possible to bring forward space" point.
What do you think brought us to this cap crisis other than bringing cap space forward?
I get it, a lot of fans don't understand the cap. A good idea might be to STFU about it though instead of sounding like a complete imbecile.
I think civility might be a decent goal, but since you seem incapable I will at least use small words so your small brain has a chance to keep up. (civility by the way is the sense of speaking and being polite to one another).
All teams bring money forward. This was designed to look at how teams in the NFCE compare. Bringing money forward leaves you with higher cap hits in the future (if this math is too complicated for you let me know and I will explain it). So if you have brought money forward you will have bigger cap hits in the future. Therefore, by itself, lower total cap numbers are evidence you have not brought money forward as much as others. Additionally, the Giants have the lowest amount of dead money on the books, and the lowest amount of potential dead money over the next three years. So on a comparitive basis the Giants seem to have done the least amount of bringing money forward. You might want to gather some facts before you spout.
Helpful hint - imbecile (n) - A stupid person. You might want to familiarize yourself with the word, since I don't think it means what you think it means.
My small brain?
This is going to be fun. Let's go.
I think it's a no...right?
Again, if Jones blew up this year the Giants would unquestionably be ready to pay Jones in 1-2 years.
Yes, the Giants have money to pay the QB. I will go out on that limb.
This is old. I am not even defending the Giants here or acting like the cap is in great shape, the team fucking sucks so there are problems here, but I can't take it seriously when people proclaim there's no money to pay a QB. Please stop.
Guys are on the way out and the high priced vets are going to be here next year. Hopefully those guys play better but it's not like Galladay is a bad player.
The vets making a lot aren't signed that long and some of them are worth keeping.
I don't thi
This is old. I am not even defending the Giants here or acting like the cap is in great shape, the team fucking sucks so there are problems here, but I can't take it seriously when people proclaim there's no money to pay a QB. Please stop.
Don't you think those posters were intimating don't spend money you don't have?
That is what the Giants did, and because of it they had to restructure way too many contracts this fall potentially hurting the future. And reaching into contracts on players that may have a murky future which is another layer to the problem.
Not a good time to take a victory lap on Cap 101 when the team is sitting 4-7 and had to restructure a contract on a Center that has a tough rehab ahead of him to play again just to sign a 3rd string QB from somebody else's practice squad.
Guys are on the way out and the high priced vets are going to be here next year. Hopefully those guys play better but it's not like Galladay is a bad player.
The vets making a lot aren't signed that long and some of them are worth keeping.
I don't thi
JonC's info suggests that we outbid the market by $5M+ per year for Golladay. That's pretty egregious. But I don't think big money for big money players is the cap killer (although smart cap management still does suggest that you should try to achieve the best bargain that you can relative to the player's talent level). With Golladay, there's also the hypocritical element of "hurt players get hurt" that was ignored by DG in chasing his white whale, but that's neither here nor there.
But as I said on another thread, we pay our kicker too much, we pay our punter too much, we pay one of our TEs too much. These are not inconsequential players, but that doesn't mean that overpaying them is acceptable.
We pay a lot of bottom of the roster players a little bit too much each, and that adds up. We keep vested veterans at the bottom of the roster in certain situations where we could keep a young player instead. That guarantees the veterans' contracts, and when roster churn occurs, it creates dead money in-season. We leak cap space every year.
It all adds up. It's why, even with our QB, OLT, and all of our pass rushers on cheap deals, we're up against the cap to the extent that we need to restructure a player (Gates) who might never see the field again, just so we can operate this season.
It's poor cap management. It can be done better.
Leave the "none of us" for yourself.
You know a lot of the people here are as educated as the people running the Giants, or moreso, right?
Wasn't it Jim Fassel that said this is a sport played and coaches by PE majors?
The people that have been running the Giants these past few years are not generally smart people. Their actions belie that.
You make this same naive claim almost militantly every time this comes up, and you refuse to accept one simple reality — yes the Giants move money around (often with significant future cost), but they don’t make headway.
The Giants regularly cut players and lose players, then sign disappointing players who then are cut and incur dead money.
No one ever claims: The Giants cannot move money around inefficiently..
Almost anyone with a brain does claim: The Giants don’t have enough money or wisdom to retain and add enough good players to do well.
And lo we will enter the regular season next September with no optimism.
This is to djm: if you think 2021 was depressing, wait until 2022.
Quote:
because the OP is fucking lost at the "it's always possible to bring forward space" point.
What do you think brought us to this cap crisis other than bringing cap space forward?
I get it, a lot of fans don't understand the cap. A good idea might be to STFU about it though instead of sounding like a complete imbecile.
I think civility might be a decent goal, but since you seem incapable I will at least use small words so your small brain has a chance to keep up. (civility by the way is the sense of speaking and being polite to one another).
All teams bring money forward. This was designed to look at how teams in the NFCE compare. Bringing money forward leaves you with higher cap hits in the future (if this math is too complicated for you let me know and I will explain it). So if you have brought money forward you will have bigger cap hits in the future. Therefore, by itself, lower total cap numbers are evidence you have not brought money forward as much as others. Additionally, the Giants have the lowest amount of dead money on the books, and the lowest amount of potential dead money over the next three years. So on a comparitive basis the Giants seem to have done the least amount of bringing money forward. You might want to gather some facts before you spout.
Helpful hint - imbecile (n) - A stupid person. You might want to familiarize yourself with the word, since I don't think it means what you think it means.
Leonard Williams costs another $27MM in 2022. At least he plays. But that's $64MM for three players, and only Williams is close to justfying the price tag. By the way, they cost another $64MM in 2023 in the unlikely event that they are all still here.
It's true that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, in 2023. BUT two years ago, you would have said the same thing about 2021. And before that, about 2020, with Eli off the books. If the team is both smart AND lucky, they can be in good shape in March 2023. History says they are much more likely to screw it up and remain a lousy team with no cap space. Even in 2023, there will be substantial dead money to eat.
The losing under Gettleman bothers me. What's worse, to me, is the way he has tied the hands of his successor in a desperate attempt to salvage his legacy. Reese went on a similar binge in 2016, but his spending spree didn't go on nearly as long or leave the same lasting effects. And the 2016 Giants did, after all, win some games.