For the first time, I think the franchise will have to move on from Joe Judge. I was one of his biggest fans, but recently, I have been on the fence. I have gone back and forth on his future, but the more I think about it, the more I agree that it makes sense to align a new general manager with a new head coach.
For me, the turning point was the post-game press conference today. I was stunned by his comments. I don’t have exact quotes, but he said how encouraged he was by the performance today, how players did a good job, and the team is heading in the right direction. He said he is happy with the players, and they made plays all game. He also went on to praise the offense specifically! He discussed how talented Miami is. Now, Miami is on a bit of a roll, but he praised them like they were an elite team. I was completely floored. If you have a minute, go listen to Judge’s comments, and see what I mean.
For someone who initially won us all over with how he spoke, this seems like something Ben McAdoo would say. His assessment of his team is stunning. It is like he was watching a different game. For the first time, it sounds to me like he is trying to convince people he is the right guy for the job, and at times, making excuses. I think he is losing grip, and I wonder if his job security is waning.
The team has been undisciplined and underprepared, his time management is atrocious, but for the first time, it seems like he is lost to me. He was outcoached and outsmarted all game, and frankly, most of this season. This press conference just seemed like the beginning of the end to me.
Unfortunately, I would be completely stunned if Mara makes a change. For a man who is incapable of making difficult decisions, Mara will try to stay as status quo as possible. He’ll blame injuries; he’ll blame Gettleman. Mara likes Judge (and Jones for that matter) and that will be why they both stay. And some people wonder why they are the worst team in the league the last 5 years…if the owner likes you, performance doesn’t matter.
If every week at your job you had to walk into a room full of media reporters and discuss the people you manage and you went out there and explained how shitty your team is and why, that might buy you favor with outsiders, but what do you think will happen inside your team? Lead fucking balloon.
I hate he sounds like a lying robotic schmuck too, but it's admirable that he's sticking up for his guys so hardcore that he's making himself look foolish. He's taking the bullets, and doing his best to deflect with positive storylines.
Bingo, and I can guarantee the team is not hearing the same vibe the public does during their meetings.
Hell I was Head Coach for our HS basketball team for a decade, even a Joe Schmoe like me realized you couldn’t be totally honest with the press when discussing your team.
I know there are many here with knowledge about sports, but sometimes I read things that make me wonder if the poster was ever in a locker room.
Not stating that s the case here, but I read some wild things here; just today , Jones’ injury might not be legit, just an excuse to not play him, or Jones is responsible for Gannon being the back up.
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and this was not handled well,
but what do you expect? The Giants have, from top down, been telling every fan and writer that everything is 100% under control for the past four years. Whenever a writer dares to ask a tough question, they get "we know more than you". Dave Gettleman started this season arrogant in confidence about this OL.
The weird thing is that the NY press used to have the reputation for being "tough" and asking "tough questions." They haven't been that, or done that in years. When is the last time you remember a reporter covering this team really challenging a statement made by the owner, GM, or coach? They all act like they are afraid of losing their press credentials. Maybe that is a valid risk. But it doesn't sit well with me.
Look at this past week. FINALLY, the reporters asked about Peart. And how did they phrase it? "The question I get most from fans is..." So the the setup was, "Hey, I don't want to ask this tough question because you'll get mad at me, but since the fans are asking it..."
The giants would never pull a press credential. It's a terrible optic to have to deal with. What I think is that the writers worry that they'd have less access and sources. And that's how they keep their jobs, by having something to write. So it's not really a media that's free to hold the Giants accountable for anything. They need to cover the team. The Giants don't need them.
This has been the worst team in football for almost a decade and you wouldn't know it if you read the papers.
David Hogg?
Nothing turns me off from a HC more than one who BSes the fans thinking they're stupid.
Girardi did this with the Yankees. I'll never forget when he was asked about Stephen Drew and said he'd been hitting the ball hard. It didn't take long for someone to check and turns out Drew had hit the ball softer than anyone else
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and this was not handled well,
but what do you expect? The Giants have, from top down, been telling every fan and writer that everything is 100% under control for the past four years. Whenever a writer dares to ask a tough question, they get "we know more than you". Dave Gettleman started this season arrogant in confidence about this OL.
The weird thing is that the NY press used to have the reputation for being "tough" and asking "tough questions." They haven't been that, or done that in years. When is the last time you remember a reporter covering this team really challenging a statement made by the owner, GM, or coach? They all act like they are afraid of losing their press credentials. Maybe that is a valid risk. But it doesn't sit well with me.
Look at this past week. FINALLY, the reporters asked about Peart. And how did they phrase it? "The question I get most from fans is..." So the the setup was, "Hey, I don't want to ask this tough question because you'll get mad at me, but since the fans are asking it..."
Ranann has asked tough questions of DG and Reese. The problem is that the GM and owner rarely speak to the press.
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you've never lead a team of people before.
If every week at your job you had to walk into a room full of media reporters and discuss the people you manage and you went out there and explained how shitty your team is and why, that might buy you favor with outsiders, but what do you think will happen inside your team? Lead fucking balloon.
I hate he sounds like a lying robotic schmuck too, but it's admirable that he's sticking up for his guys so hardcore that he's making himself look foolish. He's taking the bullets, and doing his best to deflect with positive storylines.
As a leader why couldn't he say "This isn't good enough for all of us."
He's said some variation of that all season. Maybe not exactly in this press conference. But isn't it obvious it's not good enough? We lost. He's said we left plays on the field etc. The other team got paid too and beat us.
Listen it may seem slightly strange that he's not stating the obvious, but I don't think it's a symptom of delusion. The changes in the offense would have produced better results if we had the players. So I agree with him that what we saw had better potential -- i.e. "moving in the right direction" -- but we are handicapped with a shit roster. Judge was taking the high road, and maybe trying to build confidence in the team at the same time. I don't fault him for it.
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you've never lead a team of people before.
If every week at your job you had to walk into a room full of media reporters and discuss the people you manage and you went out there and explained how shitty your team is and why, that might buy you favor with outsiders, but what do you think will happen inside your team? Lead fucking balloon.
I hate he sounds like a lying robotic schmuck too, but it's admirable that he's sticking up for his guys so hardcore that he's making himself look foolish. He's taking the bullets, and doing his best to deflect with positive storylines.
In all honesty I don't give a shit what he says to the press. What I do give a shit about is that he sucks at his job.
He is bad because the players are horrible.
Where do you think the Giants current roster, including injuries and those in and out of the lineup ranks in the NFL?
Then ask yourself is the Giants record the same, better or worse than that ranking? I don't get what people are expecting him to do.
Trying not to get blown out is how you coach when you know your roster is so severely undermanned you have no business winning games so keeping it to a coin flip at the end is the best you can hope for.
I think he's gone,not gone as in fired,but definitely gone.
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Us fans are too smart for that bullshit. If he can't bring himself to speak the truth about his team, his coaching, then just don't say anything. Under no circumstances keep making those same statements. it was cute after 2 losses (awww... look at the young coach accentuate the positives and try to keep his team's spirits up...) now it is just insulting.
Nothing turns me off from a HC more than one who BSes the fans thinking they're stupid.
Girardi did this with the Yankees. I'll never forget when he was asked about Stephen Drew and said he'd been hitting the ball hard. It didn't take long for someone to check and turns out Drew had hit the ball softer than anyone else
Why do you and fans in general take it so personally? He and Joe Girardi don’t think fans are stupid - he’s making an obvious decision to not blast his players to the media. Disagree with the strategy if you’d like, but it’s got nothing to do with thinking fans are stupid.
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In comment 15482634 GiantTuff1 said:
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you've never lead a team of people before.
If every week at your job you had to walk into a room full of media reporters and discuss the people you manage and you went out there and explained how shitty your team is and why, that might buy you favor with outsiders, but what do you think will happen inside your team? Lead fucking balloon.
I hate he sounds like a lying robotic schmuck too, but it's admirable that he's sticking up for his guys so hardcore that he's making himself look foolish. He's taking the bullets, and doing his best to deflect with positive storylines.
In all honesty I don't give a shit what he says to the press. What I do give a shit about is that he sucks at his job.
He is bad because the players are horrible.
Where do you think the Giants current roster, including injuries and those in and out of the lineup ranks in the NFL?
Then ask yourself is the Giants record the same, better or worse than that ranking? I don't get what people are expecting him to do.
The players have nothing to do with his poor in game decision making and bad game plans. Remember when he didn't know the NFL shuts off headset communication with 15 seconds left in the game clock? He is woefully unprepared for this position.
Yes the roster sucks, but so does Judge. Stop buying his bs.
Link - ( New Window )
Arguably the biggest screw up of the past decade was retaining Reese when Coughlin was jettisoned. I don't care if it's 3 straight coaches who only lasted 2 seasons apiece. I don't care how many guys are still on the payroll. It's the right move and it has to be made. These half measures (Coughlin but not Reese, one more run with Eli, competing while rebuilding) are killing this team.
For the love of God, don't hire Abrams or go search for a GM who wants to work with Judge. Clean house, hire outside consultants who have no history with the franchise, and listen to them. It's the only way.
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In comment 15482537 D HOS said:
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Us fans are too smart for that bullshit. If he can't bring himself to speak the truth about his team, his coaching, then just don't say anything. Under no circumstances keep making those same statements. it was cute after 2 losses (awww... look at the young coach accentuate the positives and try to keep his team's spirits up...) now it is just insulting.
Nothing turns me off from a HC more than one who BSes the fans thinking they're stupid.
Girardi did this with the Yankees. I'll never forget when he was asked about Stephen Drew and said he'd been hitting the ball hard. It didn't take long for someone to check and turns out Drew had hit the ball softer than anyone else
Why do you and fans in general take it so personally? He and Joe Girardi don’t think fans are stupid - he’s making an obvious decision to not blast his players to the media. Disagree with the strategy if you’d like, but it’s got nothing to do with thinking fans are stupid.
Not blasting players is fine, saying things that are easily verified as false (as in my example with Drew's hard hit %) tells me they think no one's going to check their BS and fans are just going to go along with it
You can make a case against JJ or DG, but IMO, the overwhelming share of the blame goes to DG. I am not as down on the coaching staff as some of you because I don't believe they've been handed a competent roster.
Look at Washington. That roster does not have any big names on O other than MClauren and Scherff. Scherff is injured I believe. Yet look what they are doing. With Taylor freakin Heinekie at the helm. Oh and they have OL dropping like flies. And the fourth string guys come in and do admirably. Coaching is a massive part of football. Competent coaches can get average performances from below average players. They do what they have to to get them there. But they do it.
Spare me the, “it’s not coaching”, talk………. Taylor Heinekie.
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But I think he should come out and say that the performance is not up to the standard and that the team has to perform better. Give us some thing to show that he’s not pleased with the results or the performance today was unacceptable.
He was borderline complementary of his players, his staff, and even himself today! Complementary of that performance? How?
As milk toast as Shurmur was I did appreciate his honesty in pressers. Also I enjoy Arians style too. Jim Fassel pushing chips.
Shurmur was a better HC than Judge is showing to be. At least he had a clue on offense and he made Jones look like a player.
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In comment 15482798 Scooter185 said:
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In comment 15482537 D HOS said:
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Us fans are too smart for that bullshit. If he can't bring himself to speak the truth about his team, his coaching, then just don't say anything. Under no circumstances keep making those same statements. it was cute after 2 losses (awww... look at the young coach accentuate the positives and try to keep his team's spirits up...) now it is just insulting.
Nothing turns me off from a HC more than one who BSes the fans thinking they're stupid.
Girardi did this with the Yankees. I'll never forget when he was asked about Stephen Drew and said he'd been hitting the ball hard. It didn't take long for someone to check and turns out Drew had hit the ball softer than anyone else
Why do you and fans in general take it so personally? He and Joe Girardi don’t think fans are stupid - he’s making an obvious decision to not blast his players to the media. Disagree with the strategy if you’d like, but it’s got nothing to do with thinking fans are stupid.
Not blasting players is fine, saying things that are easily verified as false (as in my example with Drew's hard hit %) tells me they think no one's going to check their BS and fans are just going to go along with it
Fans make everything to be a definitive statement with no room for nuance or even error. So say you caught Joe Judge out in a lie about something, what happens next?
Nothing he says matters during a losing streak, there isn’t anything he can say to appease anyone. He could say the exact same things during a winning streak and no one would care.
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In comment 15482923 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 15482798 Scooter185 said:
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In comment 15482537 D HOS said:
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Us fans are too smart for that bullshit. If he can't bring himself to speak the truth about his team, his coaching, then just don't say anything. Under no circumstances keep making those same statements. it was cute after 2 losses (awww... look at the young coach accentuate the positives and try to keep his team's spirits up...) now it is just insulting.
Nothing turns me off from a HC more than one who BSes the fans thinking they're stupid.
Girardi did this with the Yankees. I'll never forget when he was asked about Stephen Drew and said he'd been hitting the ball hard. It didn't take long for someone to check and turns out Drew had hit the ball softer than anyone else
Why do you and fans in general take it so personally? He and Joe Girardi don’t think fans are stupid - he’s making an obvious decision to not blast his players to the media. Disagree with the strategy if you’d like, but it’s got nothing to do with thinking fans are stupid.
Not blasting players is fine, saying things that are easily verified as false (as in my example with Drew's hard hit %) tells me they think no one's going to check their BS and fans are just going to go along with it
Fans make everything to be a definitive statement with no room for nuance or even error. So say you caught Joe Judge out in a lie about something, what happens next?
Nothing he says matters during a losing streak, there isn’t anything he can say to appease anyone. He could say the exact same things during a winning streak and no one would care.
I don't disagree, none of it really matters, but it will always bother me when a coach blatantly lies
Other than AT, one could argue that every other player on offense has gotten progressively worse under Judge.
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you've never lead a team of people before.
If every week at your job you had to walk into a room full of media reporters and discuss the people you manage and you went out there and explained how shitty your team is and why, that might buy you favor with outsiders, but what do you think will happen inside your team? Lead fucking balloon.
I hate he sounds like a lying robotic schmuck too, but it's admirable that he's sticking up for his guys so hardcore that he's making himself look foolish. He's taking the bullets, and doing his best to deflect with positive storylines.
Bingo, and I can guarantee the team is not hearing the same vibe the public does during their meetings.
Hell I was Head Coach for our HS basketball team for a decade, even a Joe Schmoe like me realized you couldn’t be totally honest with the press when discussing your team.
I know there are many here with knowledge about sports, but sometimes I read things that make me wonder if the poster was ever in a locker room.
Not stating that s the case here, but I read some wild things here; just today , Jones’ injury might not be legit, just an excuse to not play him, or Jones is responsible for Gannon being the back up.
Again...this is not a matter of protecting the players. I get the point of that....but protecting players is not what he did. He went out of his way to compliment the offense! He made excuses! There is a big difference there. Especially from a guy who claims to be a no-nonsense kind of guy. It seems like this was all just an act, and now his true colors are showing. I'm not asking him to eviscerate individual players, but he comes across as a fake now.
I also think that a coach really hurts his credibility with the fans, with the media, and with his own players when he blatantly makes up lies and claims to see things that we "average people" can't see.
It doesn't take a brilliant mind to see that this team is regressing. And when the coach stands up there after the game and says the exact opposite, it stinks of someone trying to save himself...not standing up for the players.
Having been in locker rooms, and very recently as a coach, players know where the weak links are. And nothing is more infuriating than a coach standing up for players who aren't cutting it.
That is what causes dissension in a locker room, and that is how a coach can lose a locker room real quick. If someone isn't being genuine, the men in the locker room will find out immediately.
It could have been a simple response from Judge today: we just weren't good enough, we will work our hardest to improve, what we put on the field today will not cut it. The results were unacceptable.
Instead, he made excuses and tried to trick the fans.
The headline or Tweet generated from the press conference is the story he’s trying to tell his superiors. Or the story he’s trying to keep the press from telling to his superiors.
This is the first time I thought Judge sounded like a guy trying to cover his ass. He’s typically pretty sterile and confident at the mic. Today he was scared.
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I think we are underestimating just how big the talent gap is between the guys we are sending out there on O these days, and the guys we are playing against. There are very few players that we ran out there on O today that would be starting on any other football team. Thomas and Golladay; maybe Engram. That's it.
You can make a case against JJ or DG, but IMO, the overwhelming share of the blame goes to DG. I am not as down on the coaching staff as some of you because I don't believe they've been handed a competent roster.
Look at Washington. That roster does not have any big names on O other than MClauren and Scherff. Scherff is injured I believe. Yet look what they are doing. With Taylor freakin Heinekie at the helm. Oh and they have OL dropping like flies. And the fourth string guys come in and do admirably. Coaching is a massive part of football. Competent coaches can get average performances from below average players. They do what they have to to get them there. But they do it.
Spare me the, “it’s not coaching”, talk………. Taylor Heinekie.
It might be the coach but spare me the talk about WFT. What do you know about "talent" and how the coaches turn a bad player to a good one?
I know his boss is a blockhead. I lean heavily toward JJ is too.
I have been out on Judge for about a month now. His teams are unprepared and undisciplined. Worse thing is he coaches scared.
The headline or Tweet generated from the press conference is the story he’s trying to tell his superiors. Or the story he’s trying to keep the press from telling to his superiors.
This is the first time I thought Judge sounded like a guy trying to cover his ass. He’s typically pretty sterile and confident at the mic. Today he was scared.
I’m getting that sense too. I think he knows there is a solid chance he will be collateral damage. This was always a strong possibility when Gettleman was retained after 2019.
These comments understandably drawing quite a reaction. My take: He’s not going to criticize coaching 2 weeks after firing the OC, he’s not going to use injured players as an excuse and he’s never going to criticize a player. So he tried to go positive and just way overdid it.
And judging by the fan reaction, it was a major calculation. Judge might not have lost the locker room, but it seems like that presser lost a lot of the fan base.
He's never going to criticize anyone on this team in public so I'm surprised people are expecting it. He's going to handle that stuff in the building.
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Joe Judge, like every coach who has ever stood at a podium is not speaking to the fans. He’s speaking to his boss.
The headline or Tweet generated from the press conference is the story he’s trying to tell his superiors. Or the story he’s trying to keep the press from telling to his superiors.
This is the first time I thought Judge sounded like a guy trying to cover his ass. He’s typically pretty sterile and confident at the mic. Today he was scared.
I’m getting that sense too. I think he knows there is a solid chance he will be collateral damage. This was always a strong possibility when Gettleman was retained after 2019.
He's not collateral damage he sucks at his job. He hasn't shown one thing to hang your hat on.
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I think we are underestimating just how big the talent gap is between the guys we are sending out there on O these days, and the guys we are playing against. There are very few players that we ran out there on O today that would be starting on any other football team. Thomas and Golladay; maybe Engram. That's it.
You can make a case against JJ or DG, but IMO, the overwhelming share of the blame goes to DG. I am not as down on the coaching staff as some of you because I don't believe they've been handed a competent roster.
Look at Washington. That roster does not have any big names on O other than MClauren and Scherff. Scherff is injured I believe. Yet look what they are doing. With Taylor freakin Heinekie at the helm. Oh and they have OL dropping like flies. And the fourth string guys come in and do admirably. Coaching is a massive part of football. Competent coaches can get average performances from below average players. They do what they have to to get them there. But they do it.
Spare me the, “it’s not coaching”, talk………. Taylor Heinekie.
Taylor Heinekie > Daniel Jones
Taylor Heinekie > Mike Glennon
Antonio Gibson and McKissic are outperforming Saquon and Booker
McClauren is vastly outperforming our #1 WR, whoever that is supposed to be
Their O-line is better than ours with or without Sherff....
Want me to go on?
So yeah, there’s gaps in talent on the Giants and especially so at QB and other key playmaker positions.
But the Giants also aren’t a well coached team. And that’s on Joe Judge. Judge has the platitudes and bromides down pat. But he can’t seem to do anything else necessary to achieve success as a head coach. He’s just not ready. This season is just as bad or worse than last season and the sad truth is that Joe Judge might not be up to the job.
You fired Jason Garrett because the offensive production. How can you explain the fact that the offense is no better now than when Jason was here?
Yesterday is what he meant?
Yesterday is what he meant?
He meant a 360 degree turn
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and he wasn't going to stop until it was done.
Yesterday is what he meant?
He meant a 360 degree turn
Aha!
Mission accomplished.
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and this was not handled well,
but what do you expect? The Giants have, from top down, been telling every fan and writer that everything is 100% under control for the past four years. Whenever a writer dares to ask a tough question, they get "we know more than you". Dave Gettleman started this season arrogant in confidence about this OL.
The weird thing is that the NY press used to have the reputation for being "tough" and asking "tough questions." They haven't been that, or done that in years. When is the last time you remember a reporter covering this team really challenging a statement made by the owner, GM, or coach? They all act like they are afraid of losing their press credentials. Maybe that is a valid risk. But it doesn't sit well with me.
Look at this past week. FINALLY, the reporters asked about Peart. And how did they phrase it? "The question I get most from fans is..." So the the setup was, "Hey, I don't want to ask this tough question because you'll get mad at me, but since the fans are asking it..."
This is so true. I was really hoping for a question yesterday asking "Why didn't the team play with urgency in the 4th quarter when it was still a ballgame?"
And if he responded with "We played with urgency" then counter with a "Really? Every play went to a huddle. Every play went down to a few seconds on the playclock. You almost half of the remaining game time to move 25 yards before the field goal. How can you say the team was playing with urgency?"
But no, nothing.
That comment, begged for a follow-up question
And "What Brian has done a really good job of was the way they really pushed through that 7- game losing streak"
That said, I wonder if there is thought that individual critique, in public, could cost the team leverage.
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In comment 15482575 BigBlueNH said:
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I think we are underestimating just how big the talent gap is between the guys we are sending out there on O these days, and the guys we are playing against. There are very few players that we ran out there on O today that would be starting on any other football team. Thomas and Golladay; maybe Engram. That's it.
You can make a case against JJ or DG, but IMO, the overwhelming share of the blame goes to DG. I am not as down on the coaching staff as some of you because I don't believe they've been handed a competent roster.
Look at Washington. That roster does not have any big names on O other than MClauren and Scherff. Scherff is injured I believe. Yet look what they are doing. With Taylor freakin Heinekie at the helm. Oh and they have OL dropping like flies. And the fourth string guys come in and do admirably. Coaching is a massive part of football. Competent coaches can get average performances from below average players. They do what they have to to get them there. But they do it.
Spare me the, “it’s not coaching”, talk………. Taylor Heinekie.
It might be the coach but spare me the talk about WFT. What do you know about "talent" and how the coaches turn a bad player to a good one?
What? My point is they take guys that are third and fourth on the depth chart and get them to be serviceable. I never claimed to be a talent evaluator.
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In comment 15482575 BigBlueNH said:
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I think we are underestimating just how big the talent gap is between the guys we are sending out there on O these days, and the guys we are playing against. There are very few players that we ran out there on O today that would be starting on any other football team. Thomas and Golladay; maybe Engram. That's it.
You can make a case against JJ or DG, but IMO, the overwhelming share of the blame goes to DG. I am not as down on the coaching staff as some of you because I don't believe they've been handed a competent roster.
Look at Washington. That roster does not have any big names on O other than MClauren and Scherff. Scherff is injured I believe. Yet look what they are doing. With Taylor freakin Heinekie at the helm. Oh and they have OL dropping like flies. And the fourth string guys come in and do admirably. Coaching is a massive part of football. Competent coaches can get average performances from below average players. They do what they have to to get them there. But they do it.
Spare me the, “it’s not coaching”, talk………. Taylor Heinekie.
Taylor Heinekie > Daniel Jones
Taylor Heinekie > Mike Glennon
Antonio Gibson and McKissic are outperforming Saquon and Booker
McClauren is vastly outperforming our #1 WR, whoever that is supposed to be
Their O-line is better than ours with or without Sherff....
Want me to go on?
Taylor Heinekie = Former bench player from small school program. Coaching got him where he is.
Thier OL is complete patchwork right now and doing just fine. Coaching got them there.
McClauren is Talented. I commented on him in my OP, so not sure how you pointing him out means anything.
Gibson was a former wide receiver turned RB. Coaching helped him make that transition. He was thrid round draft pick. Not pick number 2 like Barkley.
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But the OL and QB, the two most important pieces on offense by far, are not made up of highly drafted talented players. Eric Flowers and Scherff were drafted high. Flowers SUCKED til he got to WFT. What made him better?? Coaching.
You made my point for me. Outside of Scherff and McClauren they are not a highly covetted or drafted offensive team.
Hell, their TE is a fomer QB. Coaching got him where he is.
.Want me to go on?
And that’s fine. But don’t continuously tell us that you want to build a team that represents the fan base and then come out in a press conference and lie to our faces. It’s insulting. It’s easy enough for him to just say nothing without throwing particular players under the bus. It’s better than being lied to like we are a bunch of blithering idiots.