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Is Judge worse than Shurmur/Mcadoo?

japanhead : 12/6/2021 10:43 am
Mcadoo got the Giants to the playoffs in 2016. Yes you can argue it was with Coughlin's team, etc etc, but it happened. Mcadoo also wanted to move up to draft Mahomes, but was rebuffed by a front office who selected Davis Webb in the third round on the advice of Chris Mara. First round pick in 2017 was Evan Engram. Mcadoo was hung out to dry for the fallout over the Eli benching, which was really the fault of the owner.

Shurmur was an uninspiring presence and a lousy in-game coach and had no connections of his own so had Shula forced on him as OC, and Bettcher as DC (is he even in the NFL anymore?). But Shurmur at least had the excuse that he was calling plays so his focus in other areas was compromised. Judge has no such excuse. The offense also scored points with Shurmur, with two different quarterbacks and a garbage offensive line, though it was not some offensive juggernaut.

Under Judge the offense cannot score points, they play a bend and then break style of defense, went on a big FA spending spree on offense and defense and the team in his second year looks to be circling the drain. Sure there are injuries. Mcadoos 2017 squad was riddled with injuries as well.

It's looking to me like Judge is the worst of the three, which is really saying something given how terrible Mcadoo and Shurmur were.

How is it possible the team has been going backwards or at best spinning its wheels since what we all thought would have been the low point of 2017?
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I would like Shurm as OC  
mattlawson : 12/6/2021 11:01 am : link
And graham as DC.

And a couple more OL and a pass rusher and then let’s see what we got
Definitely worse than Shurmur  
Breeze_94 : 12/6/2021 11:03 am : link
With Shurmur, the Giants were at least a competent NFL offense (with a bad Oline). Shurmur was a good offensive mind and Jones has regressed since he left.

Developing your young QB is much more important than whatever it is the Giants think Judge brings to the table. He’s a special teams guy and they haven’t created one explosive play in the return game since he’s been here, and consistently punt the ball into the end zone after he decides to punt on 4th and 2 or less
Paulie mentioned the disdain for the revolving door ...  
Beezer : 12/6/2021 11:05 am : link
I get that. Agreed.

Maybe if anything I'd say Judge gets to stick for 1/2 next season to show actual improvement. The Giants are 2-6, 3-7 next year? Gone.

I also hate that, though, because then you've got a situation more entrenched with Judge-isms.

Maybe best to bring in a new head coach with Abrams (I hope it's not him, but come on ... it's going to be), and allow this new head coach to hire his own damn staff.

Pipedream, I know.
RE: ...  
Route 9 : 12/6/2021 11:05 am : link
In comment 15483621 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
They all suck. All clowns.


Yep. Exactly. Nothing more exciting than disputing "who is the biggest clown" with all these head coaches.

How about we start winning sometime soon?
He's probably the worst Giant coach I've seen  
ghost718 : 12/6/2021 11:06 am : link
which puts him high in the running for worst coach of any team
Judge has shown us who he is  
Bold Ruler : Mod : 12/6/2021 11:07 am : link
I bet we retain him and he still sucks as a game day manager next year.
Moe, Larry and Curly  
HomerJones45 : 12/6/2021 11:07 am : link
Moe at least got a playoff game out if his big money free agent spend.

Shurmur never got the big dollar spend the other two did. Just a guess, but if he had the big dollar free agents the other two did, he might have one another couple of games.

Judge got the big dollar spend and the team still sucks.

This "lost the locker room" standard is nonsense. Lots of bad coaches had teams that played hard (or thought they were playing hard) and were loved in the locker room. Sometimes they were loved because they were patsies. Lots of good coaches Landry, Lombardi, Noll, Lil Bill and dare I say Parcells and Coughlin were not universally loved in the locker room but had some small record of success.

Judge is a know-it-all who apparently knows very little and has shown zero results despite unprecedented levels of support. I don't give a fuck whether he's "lost the locker room" or not, he's proven to be a bad head coach and needs to be shown the door.
Judges fall from grace  
mittenedman : 12/6/2021 11:11 am : link
is fascinating. I loved him last year as most Giants fans did.

10 days later he was a pumpkin. Thats how horribly coached those 1st 2 weeks were.

RE: Judges fall from grace  
Route 9 : 12/6/2021 11:14 am : link
In comment 15483659 mittenedman said:
Quote:
is fascinating. I loved him last year as most Giants fans did.

10 days later he was a pumpkin. Thats how horribly coached those 1st 2 weeks were.


The Washington game fuck up pissed a lot of people off on here. Me being one of them.
Yes for sure  
Jerry in_DC : 12/6/2021 11:17 am : link
None are good coaches but the others at least have something redeeming

McAdoo actually won football games. Hard to believe it happened here, but it did, as much as people like to pretend that 2016 didn't exist. Good coach? No. But he did accomplish something

Shurmur is a bad HC but good offensive coach. He brought something to table

Judge seems to have no specific skills and he's a horrendous game manager. What does he actually do? What does he bring to the team? Unclear, but possibly nothing. Also he loses a lot and in really boring ways.
I dunno  
darktimes : 12/6/2021 11:21 am : link
McAdoo had OBJ and Eli working well together which won them a lot of games against bad teams.

Judge has shit on Offense. Defense is middle of the road.
Kind of like  
wonderback : 12/6/2021 11:21 am : link
Being the worlds tallest midget!
Using Mara's Own Words  
Bernie : 12/6/2021 11:23 am : link
Is the team headed in the right direction? The obvious answer is no. JJ has become a tone deaf joke. While I originally was all for giving him a 3rd year, given what we witnessed 2 of the last 3 weeks, this entire thing needs to be blown up and let the new GM pick his head coach and structure the front office and football operations how he sees fit. I get it's a frightening proposition, but the status quo is equally depressing and shows zero signs of turning things around.
I understand not  
Scooter185 : 12/6/2021 11:33 am : link
Wanting to continue the revolving door of HCs, but continuity for continuity sake with the wrong people is even worse. Remember JG was kept around for continuity, and we all saw how that played out.
No one was worse than Shurmur  
Ben in Tampa : 12/6/2021 11:34 am : link
And it was known what he was before he was hired and they did it anyway.

They took a calculated risk with Judge, and it appears to have not panned out. I can at least stomach that they tried something new and Judge failed.

I think Mcadoo was a clown, and if he hadn’t benched a franchise hero for Geno fucking Smith, who knows. He may still be coach. Judge and Shurmur have accomplished nothing even close to Mcadoo.

What a sad state this franchise finds itself in.
I disagree a bit about your rationale for  
Section331 : 12/6/2021 11:36 am : link
McAdoo’s firing. While the Eli benching may have been the final straw, McAdoo had completely lost control of the locker room. No players still respected him. Even if he started Eli the rest of the season, he was gone.
Shurmur's offense is great for stat padding  
widmerseyebrow : 12/6/2021 11:37 am : link
and propping up mediocre quarterbacks. Against playoff defenses? Not so much.
People  
allstarjim : 12/6/2021 11:39 am : link
Are actually saying we had a good offense under McAdoo.

I remember when Giants' fans were among the most knowledgeable fans of any sports organization.
All three  
TroutMan : 12/6/2021 11:48 am : link
have their own unique level of suckitude.

Right now he is looking downright awful  
Batenhorst7 : 12/6/2021 11:57 am : link
I was in his camp.....now I'm not so sure
RE: Shurmur's offense is great for stat padding  
Essex : 12/6/2021 11:58 am : link
In comment 15483721 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
and propping up mediocre quarterbacks. Against playoff defenses? Not so much.

Shurmur was a terrible playcaller who had no feel for the rhythm of a game. See that Philadelphia game in Philly his last year here. Nobody is pining for Shurmur; we are just commenting about HOW BAD Judge is and how he is even worse than Shurmur.
RE: Being an awful gameday manager  
Carson53 : 12/6/2021 12:06 pm : link
In comment 15483623 JonC said:
Quote:
got Shurmur fired, and Judge is even worse. The team hasn't quit playing for him, but it's impossible to look past how bad he's been on gameday in 2021.
.

On top of that, he doesn't 'coach to win', too conservative
at times. Look at least week for example against the Iggles...
late in the game when Giants are trying to run out the clock.
The operative word is trying....on second down, lets have Jones roll to the right and fall down, on 3rd down, roll to the left and fall down.
That's not coaching to win, just a microcosm of his coaching style.
RE: RE: Shurmur's offense is great for stat padding  
Route 9 : 12/6/2021 12:08 pm : link
In comment 15483769 Essex said:
Quote:
Shurmur was a terrible playcaller who had no feel for the rhythm of a game. See that Philadelphia game in Philly his last year here. Nobody is pining for Shurmur; we are just commenting about HOW BAD Judge is and how he is even worse than Shurmur.


I thought he was even more horrific with his head coaching decisions in the 2018 game in Philly around Thanksgiving time. Holy shit. Philly had no business winning that game but because Pat Shurmur is a complete moron they won somehow. Fucking ridiculous.

His last game here was one of the most embarrassing Giant games ever. Getting blown out by a bunch of scrubs off the street against your "core" roster. Jones, Barkley, Shepherd, Golden Tate, Evan engram ALL played. You think this is a game where they would get going on offense? No. It's the other way around.... they're the ones getting blown out.

If you can't figure out how bad these players are after that one, you don't have a clue about anything.
.  
Banks : 12/6/2021 12:15 pm : link
he's worse. He makes worse decisions and brings nothing special to any unit. At least Shurmur's offense at times looked good. Bmac went 11-5 one year. I couldn't stand him as the OC or HC, but you can't take that away from him.
I don't think so  
Joey in VA : 12/6/2021 12:19 pm : link
This team just flat quit on McAdoo and Shurmur. As a game manager he needs help obviously but I have not totally lost faith. I did a few weeks ago but the deeper I look, the more I see Mara and DGs fingerprints as the real culprits. I think he can turn it around, but I think he needs a GM who shares the scouting parameters he uses and his own QB.
It's a dead heat - I think Big Mac may have him by a nose  
PatersonPlank : 12/6/2021 1:00 pm : link
.
RE: Yes at least with Shurmer/Mcadoo  
dpinzow : 12/6/2021 1:01 pm : link
In comment 15483603 Bleedblue10 said:
Quote:
We were able to score points. Judge is in way over his head and to quote the great Tiki Barber.... "It's almost comical"


We couldn't score points with McAdoo
At least Shurmur had an offense  
Justlurking : 12/6/2021 1:26 pm : link
Giants were terrible but his offense was light years better than this shitshow.

Regardless, no one could win with this roster. Front office is a disgrace. Why is Gettleman still employed?
he's better  
bronxct1 : 12/6/2021 1:37 pm : link
Judge has already had two better seasons than Shurmur did. He's won more games already with 5 more games to go.

McAdoo had a defense that won him a ton of games but his 2nd year was so disastrous that I think Judge is still a better coach than him. That offense was bad under him as well.

It's ugly right now but Judge is still faring better than those two did if you look at the body of work as a whole. I'm more inclined to let Judge keep at it and continue to build a roster vs. the other two.

The end of this year may be ugly just given the fact that if Jones plays the QB situation is terrible.




terrible coach  
adambear : 12/6/2021 1:39 pm : link
great excuse maker
I know this is  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 12/6/2021 1:43 pm : link
not overly popular on BBI, but I wish Mara simply had made a big push for Saban years ago.
 
christian : 12/6/2021 2:04 pm : link
I wish the Giants had fired Reese and Coughlin, and hired Jon Robinson as GM after the 2015 season.
Kind of off topic..  
Sean : 12/6/2021 2:11 pm : link
But I wonder if Sean Payton would be available, wonder if Mara would go down that road.
RE: Kind of off topic..  
japanhead : 12/6/2021 2:57 pm : link
In comment 15484055 Sean said:
Quote:
But I wonder if Sean Payton would be available, wonder if Mara would go down that road.


i think one of the problems the giants will run into is, what established coach who is worth their salt, is going to walk into an organizational structure like the giants? although rivera took the redskins job and that organization, at least until recently, seemed to be even more dysfunctional than the giants.

since i think we're all pretty much resigned to judge getting a default 3rd year that he probably doesn't deserve (given that their 2x SB winning coach tom coughlin was fired after two 6-10 seasons), the more pressing question is, what GM who is worth their salt is going to want to come to an organizaton where there is a mandate from the owner about who the coach and quarterback are going to be?

i understand mara doesn't want to pay judge for three years to fuck off, and apparently "likes" him or some shit, but this is why it's easy to see them hiring spinless yes-man and "cap guru" kevin abrams. what other choices will there be? look at the candidates they brought in for the last GM search. it'd be laughable if it wasn't so sad.
You could certainly say Shurmur got much more  
NoGainDayne : 12/6/2021 2:58 pm : link
out of a less experienced DJ...
i'd love to win a few games  
markky : 12/6/2021 3:04 pm : link
3 in a row and i'd be ecstatic. that would be an amazing experience to share with my brothers and my son.
RE: You could certainly say Shurmur got much more  
Thunderstruck27 : 12/6/2021 3:04 pm : link
In comment 15484115 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
out of a less experienced DJ...


And Slayton.
RE: I know this is  
HomerJones45 : 12/6/2021 3:41 pm : link
In comment 15484005 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
not overly popular on BBI, but I wish Mara simply had made a big push for Saban years ago.
Will Saint Nick bring his Bama boosters and their wallets with him?
Judge is part of the OLine?  
bc4life : 12/6/2021 3:47 pm : link
The Giants made a mistake with Solder signing and have been unsuccessfully trying to fix it for a few years. Gates is out and 2 of our starters were not even on the team at the beginning of the year. Hernandez played well his first year and has struggled since.

Glennon took two unnecessary sacks yesterday and missed a wide open Ross for a 1st down.

Judge needs to improve but this team is talent deficient, especially after the injuries.

RE: what kind of man he is. Some of you sound like a bunch of shrill teenage girls. You have no clue what the guy is like. And what f'n difference does that make?

Worse? Eh.  
Matt M. : 12/6/2021 3:55 pm : link
I view the last 6 years as one big blur of shit. Even 2016 was veiled success. We spent a shit ton of money and had a serendipitous situation of seemingly every player on D having a career year. Nobody from that D was able to replicate what they did and the organization seemed to just rest on its laurels as if they fixed everything. The OL was never fixed, which is a huge reason why we suck, and that D never came close to what they did that year. And now, not a single player remains from that team.

All 3 coaches lacked the ability to motivate and lead an NFL team, in my opinion.
McAdoo, Shurmur, Judge  
RHPeel : 12/6/2021 4:21 pm : link
My $.02: I still put Judge as the best of the three.

2016 - McAdoo lucked into a year of outperformance on defense in 2016. He had Odell Beckham still taking the top off defenses and breaking huge gains every week.

In general, 2016 was a dead-cat bounce for the Giants via free agency. Jenkins was All-Pro level, Landon Collins should have won DPOY, Apple wasn't terrible, and they had a really effective front seven, bolstered by Snacks Harrison. I think people forget how good the Giants' defense was the second half of that year, but I don't think McAdoo deserves credit for that; Spags does. (That defense was ranked #3 in DVOA, and down the stretch they were ascending. They were probably the best defense in football in the second half of the season, until they ran into Rodgers.)

2017 - The other shoe drops for McAdoo, who proves out of his depth when the going gets rough. The 2017 season was a tire fire, worse than any other. McAdoo deserves blame, though it was a cautionary tale in "building via free agency." All of the big FA acquisitions from 2016 collapsed (and Landon Collins lost a step or two).

2018 - Shurmur was... meh. I think Eli's decline phase accelerated that year, which hurt. But if Gettleman had done what he should have--which was trade back or draft the "gold jacket" guard--the Giants would be in a lot better shape. Instead, Barkley papered over some of the issues that the offense had.

2019 - Shurmur probably and ironically seals his fate by going to Jones in Week 3. If Jones had been held back longer Shurmur might have gotten another year to see what he could do with the young QB. Jones was the wrong pick; they should have given Eli one final year. "Redshirting" rookie QBs just doesn't work with rookie contract slotting.

Shurmur was probably a bit out of his depth too--a very good offensive coordinator that can't run a staff. But I think a lot of his problem was that he didn't hire a good staff at all.

2020 - Judge's first year. The Giants played a lot of good teams close last year. (See: the Tampa game.) I thought it was impressive, given their obvious talent deficiencies. The error that season was Jason Garrett. If you wanted Joe Judge, Judge should have gotten to pick one of his own guys to run the offense. It probably set Jones' development back a while, and possibly Andrew Thomas, too. (Thomas was a good pick who improved once Garrett's pick for OL coach was fired.)

2021 - This has been a rough year to watch. In part this is because of the trade down--they deliberately postponed cashing in draft value in preparation for the future. (This is actually to DG's credit, as they would probably have an extra win or two if they'd drafted Parsons or Slater, and DG would not be on such a hot seat.) They have also been quite hurt: really, they've gotten next to nothing from 3 of their top 4 draft picks because of injuries, and every one of their "weapons" has been battling injuries all year, and without the weapons, the line's deficiencies are made manifest. But that's on Gettleman as well.

So, as I look back:

2016 - good year, brought about by an overperforming defense and a superstar WR.
2017 - Reese's draft failures catch up to them as everything comes crashing down.
2018 - Blessed with incredible draft capital, Gettleman blows it all on Barkley, who makes the team look better than it actually is for a little while. He also brings in aged rentals like Ogletree for actual draft capital. In the moment, it was obvious that you'd rather have Nick Chubb and Quenton Nelson than Saquon Barkley and Will Hernandez, but the Giants don't see it, because "you can't take a guard #2" or some nonsense.
2019 - Gettleman rushes the QB pick, instead of leaning into his "win it with Eli" strategy, squandering draft value again. He should have waited for 2020. He also:
-- Drafts an obvious nose tackle--even though NT is one of the few positions of strength on the team--and decides he's a defensive end.
-- Trades up for a cornerback that is his single worst pick, with 6 or 7 CBs on the board that are all similarly graded.
2020 - Ownership creates a mismatch on offense between Judge and his OC, setting back the QB's development. They also don't follow the "correct" template, which is to bring in a new coach, GM, and QB all at once. (I would not have done so; I didn't like any of the QBs in 2018 except Mayfield. But this is part of their problem right now.)
2021 - Another free agent binge falls apart due to injuries. The 2018 draft class officially crashes and burns, with the 2019 class not far behind.

I don't think Judge has distinguished himself, but I think the issues are clearly with personnel--and more broadly the lack of *strategy* of personnel--more than coaching.

If the new GM wants to pick his coach, that's fine by me; I don't think Judge has done enough to "deserve" another year. But Judge has been in an impossible situation, even if he is more conservative on gameday than I'd like. The roster is bad right now, period, and even when completely healthy, was not good, and was quite thin on the lines.
Fine post and everything but  
Route 9 : 12/6/2021 5:58 pm : link
They were bad in 2020. Losing a close game to Tampa Bay doesn't let them off the hook to go to 1-7.

You have that record, plain and simple, you're bad.

I think Judge gets another year. Fine with me because I really don't give a shit. Keep losing. Who cares about it at this point?

I think the defense last year did do an OK job trying to make up for how awful the offense was. They could've beaten the Rams last year but Jones had such a shitty game. They could've beat the Bears as well but blew that, too. Even in that Tampa Bay game the mistakes that Jones made were so costly. Even when Jones does play pretty well, Judge will cancel him out with his stupid coaching.

It's the same fucking story as last year. They just don't score points. I barely watched the game yesterday and the drive stalled and they settled for a FG. Pathetic.

Go ahead. Bring back Jones bring back judge. I'll be watching less and less. How people watch every second of this trash is mind-boggling. Best of luck.
2017 just felt like a blur to me  
Leg of Theismann : 12/6/2021 6:19 pm : link
looking back I still just feel like there was something so off/wrong about that whole fucking year. And I'm not even talking about McAdoo.

It was really weird to me the way that in 2016 we won a bunch of close games and made it to 11-5, and then it was absolutely insane how QUICKLY the wheels completely fell off in 2017. OK yes we started off 0-2 with 2 bad performances. Fine. Then we lost 3 straight games on a few bad bounces here and there by 5 points, 2 points, 3 points, and we were 0-5. The media did everything they could to stir shit up like crazy (as the NY media enjoys doing) but the players in the locker room took the bait so easily! There was suddenly a massive amount of infighting and finger pointing in the locker room. In retrospect, there was simply no veteran presence to calm the waters (Tuck and Osi were long gone as were many others and Eli was never a very vocal leader). The seeds were sown by week 5 so that each individual loss (especially a convincing loss) would make everything exponentially worse, and it did.

On top of that McAdoo didn't have the experience required to get a hold of it (McAdoo with the new slicked back haircut still forever be the most ridiculous image ever in my head). There was already a massive uproar for McAdoo to be fired. Each loss just seemed to compound and compound and it was clear McAdoo and the team had bought ZERO leeway with that 2016 playoff appearance. So then feeling that he was probably going to be fired he benched Eli and desperately tried a different QB, and obviously that simply made everything 10x worse.

I still to this day wonder if the team and McAdoo had just kept their cool and never listened to all the outside nonsense about how they suck and how McAdoo will be canned etc. could they have survived 2017? The New York fanbase and media is always just malicious as hell any time a team goes on anything longer than a 3 game losing streak (people wanted Coughlin fired like 38 separate time), it's just that I think we just have come to expect the players and coaches will let it roll off their backs and just stay even-keel. That 2017 Giants team certainly didn't. They just let every word, every whisper, every spun rumor by the media get to them and they self-destructed. And here everyone thought we were just going to replace McAdoo and we'd get back to the old Coughlin/Parcells Giants winning way.... but here we are 4 years later and we've been the worst team in the league record-wise over that span.

BTW-- random but I don't blame Coughlin for not shaking Mara's hand that day he got let go.
McAdoo's first year was the best year under any of these 3 coaches  
shadow_spinner0 : 12/6/2021 6:29 pm : link
but McAdoo's second year was the worst of any year of these 3. So I'm curious, what the hell happened between 2016 and 2017. Injuries are one thing, how did everyone seemingly regress at the same time?

Defense was worst under Shurmur but i think that was due to talent. But the offense was better under Shurmer's 2 years than any of the last 6 years.

Shurmer is a bad HC but he's a good OC imo, I think the mistake was hiring Garrett and changing the offensive philosophy. They should have hired someone who's offense was similar to Shurmer where Jones looked his best as a passer.

As for Judge I think he may be the worst of the 3 because both sides of the ball aren't great under him and he makes WAY to many mistakes other head coaches do. He's in over his head.
RE: McAdoo's first year was the best year under any of these 3 coaches  
Leg of Theismann : 12/6/2021 6:45 pm : link
In comment 15484496 shadow_spinner0 said:
Quote:
but McAdoo's second year was the worst of any year of these 3. So I'm curious, what the hell happened between 2016 and 2017. Injuries are one thing, how did everyone seemingly regress at the same time?

Defense was worst under Shurmur but i think that was due to talent. But the offense was better under Shurmer's 2 years than any of the last 6 years.

Shurmer is a bad HC but he's a good OC imo, I think the mistake was hiring Garrett and changing the offensive philosophy. They should have hired someone who's offense was similar to Shurmer where Jones looked his best as a passer.

As for Judge I think he may be the worst of the 3 because both sides of the ball aren't great under him and he makes WAY to many mistakes other head coaches do. He's in over his head.


The team and coach were mentally weak and gave up on each other at the very first slightest sign of adversity-- that's what happened from 2016 to 2017.

Also-- Let's remember that the games in weeks 3-5 in 2017 were at least close and we lost on some tough bounces/calls, and week 5 was the game Odell broke his ankle. We beat the Broncos the following week but other than were were very rarely competitive after that.

I blame Ereck Flowers... I don't even know for what but a lot of shit lol. He was the worst offensive lineman to ever stop foot on an NFL field and it isn't even close. Couple that with the fact he was protecting the blindside of a 35+ yr old QB who was never mobile to begin with.

I think Eli and Beckham hooking up on those short routes and Beckham often turning them into big gains may have covered up how bad the o-line was in 2016. Basically Flowers went from bad to worse from 2016 to 2017 I think and defenses just started attacking him because they knew he was the worst offensive lineman ever. Eli had no one to throw to and was seeing ghosts and the awfulness couldn't be covered up any longer.

Those close games we'd won in 2016 we ended up losing, and then the wheels literally fell off by week 5 because there were no real vocal vets around (nor Coughlin anymore) to get shit in line and keep the players from getting wrapped up in the shitty NY media. So things pretty quickly just spun out of control.

Imagine if Coughlin had actually listened to any poyndexter in the media who told him he was gonna get fired. You think he ever gave a fuck? lol imagine a reporter telling Coughlin he might get fired so he benches Eli to try to prove it's Eli's fault not his. Would never happen. The entire team including McAdoo was weak-minded and got eaten alive by the NY media. Once they lost a few everything went to hell in a handbasket within literally a matter of weeks.
I meant the awfulness of the o-line and offense in general  
Leg of Theismann : 12/6/2021 6:47 pm : link
couldn't be covered up. not awfulness of Eli
RE: McAdoo, Shurmur, Judge  
shadow_spinner0 : 12/6/2021 6:53 pm : link
In comment 15484284 RHPeel said:
Quote:

2016 - good year, brought about by an overperforming defense and a superstar WR.
2017 - Reese's draft failures catch up to them as everything comes crashing down.
2018 - Blessed with incredible draft capital, Gettleman blows it all on Barkley, who makes the team look better than it actually is for a little while. He also brings in aged rentals like Ogletree for actual draft capital. In the moment, it was obvious that you'd rather have Nick Chubb and Quenton Nelson than Saquon Barkley and Will Hernandez, but the Giants don't see it, because "you can't take a guard #2" or some nonsense.
2019 - Gettleman rushes the QB pick, instead of leaning into his "win it with Eli" strategy, squandering draft value again. He should have waited for 2020. He also:
-- Drafts an obvious nose tackle--even though NT is one of the few positions of strength on the team--and decides he's a defensive end.
-- Trades up for a cornerback that is his single worst pick, with 6 or 7 CBs on the board that are all similarly graded.
2020 - Ownership creates a mismatch on offense between Judge and his OC, setting back the QB's development. They also don't follow the "correct" template, which is to bring in a new coach, GM, and QB all at once. (I would not have done so; I didn't like any of the QBs in 2018 except Mayfield. But this is part of their problem right now.)
2021 - Another free agent binge falls apart due to injuries. The 2018 draft class officially crashes and burns, with the 2019 class not far behind.

I don't think Judge has distinguished himself, but I think the issues are clearly with personnel--and more broadly the lack of *strategy* of personnel--more than coaching.

If the new GM wants to pick his coach, that's fine by me; I don't think Judge has done enough to "deserve" another year. But Judge has been in an impossible situation, even if he is more conservative on gameday than I'd like. The roster is bad right now, period, and even when completely healthy, was not good, and was quite thin on the lines.


I think the big mistake in hiring Garrett was the complete change in offensive philosophy. Jones looked fine his rookie year, they fired Shurmur because he wasn't a good head coach so instead of hiring an OC who's offense was able to maximize Jone's ability, they hired Garrett because of his past Giants ties. That is the problem with this organization. They don't make good football decisions and all decisions are made with tunnel vision. They didn't hire Garrett because he was good for Jones, they probably didn't know what his offense was. They are just stuck in the "Giant way" philosophy and that's it.
RE: RE: McAdoo, Shurmur, Judge  
Leg of Theismann : 12/6/2021 7:51 pm : link
In comment 15484518 shadow_spinner0 said:
Quote:
In comment 15484284 RHPeel said:


Quote:



2016 - good year, brought about by an overperforming defense and a superstar WR.
2017 - Reese's draft failures catch up to them as everything comes crashing down.
2018 - Blessed with incredible draft capital, Gettleman blows it all on Barkley, who makes the team look better than it actually is for a little while. He also brings in aged rentals like Ogletree for actual draft capital. In the moment, it was obvious that you'd rather have Nick Chubb and Quenton Nelson than Saquon Barkley and Will Hernandez, but the Giants don't see it, because "you can't take a guard #2" or some nonsense.
2019 - Gettleman rushes the QB pick, instead of leaning into his "win it with Eli" strategy, squandering draft value again. He should have waited for 2020. He also:
-- Drafts an obvious nose tackle--even though NT is one of the few positions of strength on the team--and decides he's a defensive end.
-- Trades up for a cornerback that is his single worst pick, with 6 or 7 CBs on the board that are all similarly graded.
2020 - Ownership creates a mismatch on offense between Judge and his OC, setting back the QB's development. They also don't follow the "correct" template, which is to bring in a new coach, GM, and QB all at once. (I would not have done so; I didn't like any of the QBs in 2018 except Mayfield. But this is part of their problem right now.)
2021 - Another free agent binge falls apart due to injuries. The 2018 draft class officially crashes and burns, with the 2019 class not far behind.

I don't think Judge has distinguished himself, but I think the issues are clearly with personnel--and more broadly the lack of *strategy* of personnel--more than coaching.

If the new GM wants to pick his coach, that's fine by me; I don't think Judge has done enough to "deserve" another year. But Judge has been in an impossible situation, even if he is more conservative on gameday than I'd like. The roster is bad right now, period, and even when completely healthy, was not good, and was quite thin on the lines.



I think the big mistake in hiring Garrett was the complete change in offensive philosophy. Jones looked fine his rookie year, they fired Shurmur because he wasn't a good head coach so instead of hiring an OC who's offense was able to maximize Jone's ability, they hired Garrett because of his past Giants ties. That is the problem with this organization. They don't make good football decisions and all decisions are made with tunnel vision. They didn't hire Garrett because he was good for Jones, they probably didn't know what his offense was. They are just stuck in the "Giant way" philosophy and that's it.


EXACTLY. I think this point about Garrett not fitting Jones is an extremely crucial one. Garrett isn't an elite OC to begin with, but throw on top of that that his system doesn't maximize Jones's skill set (Jones's skill set was specifically ideal for Shurmur's system) you just end up with a dumpster fire.

Considering "getting the QB right" is the first and most important aspect of a franchise, I'd say we only further doomed ourselves with that Garrett move. How could DJ have prospered? I mean I don't think DJ will ever be an elite QB anyway (he's never shown flashes of that even) but he could've been a decent starter IMO if he just had the right system. At this point it's too late-- there's no reason to double-down on a QB who we don't believe can be elite anyway. But the Giants were never set up for success to begin with even when they hired Judge because hiring Garrett was a step backward just because of the lack of fit.

Mara I think in theory believes it's best he stays out of football decisions, but then he's like "awww nah I'd like to make a teency weency football decision, like hiring our OC because he's good True Blue values and a good friend." Like dude that is NOT a small decision lol it was probably our downfall the last 2 years. Not being able to score in the redzone and put points on the board has made the difference between us at least contending for a WC spot vs. being completely out of it in early December.
......  
Route 9 : 12/6/2021 8:16 pm : link
OBJ was out for the season opener in 2017. He was literally the entire offense. Rememeber people being surprised he missed that game against Dallas?

2016's offense would've looked like 2017's offense if OBJ wasn't in the mix for 2016.

The 2017 team was supposed to go far. They got unlucky with OBJ getting hit low in the preseason game against the Browns.

The thing about that year (of course the Eagles bowl) that sucks is that bad year just got the Giants Barkley ... and here we are today.

Hate to say it but Barkley was a bad pick at #2 and Jones was even worse decision at #6 with Eli still on the team.
Acting like personnel is the reason Judge sucks  
Giants73 : 12/6/2021 8:27 pm : link
Or let him choose his on QB. Why? What has this turd ever done to show he is capable of getting anything out of anyone? If you have lemons make lemonade. Zero gameplanning. Solder should be benched, but Judge and his buddy boy system refuse to Peart in. He adds zero value as a coach, cannot scheme or play design. On top of that has no clue how to just use timeouts. He has no backbone to take any risks, in turn he has turned his players into the same pu$$y he is.
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