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Is Judge worse than Shurmur/Mcadoo?

japanhead : 12/6/2021 10:43 am
Mcadoo got the Giants to the playoffs in 2016. Yes you can argue it was with Coughlin's team, etc etc, but it happened. Mcadoo also wanted to move up to draft Mahomes, but was rebuffed by a front office who selected Davis Webb in the third round on the advice of Chris Mara. First round pick in 2017 was Evan Engram. Mcadoo was hung out to dry for the fallout over the Eli benching, which was really the fault of the owner.

Shurmur was an uninspiring presence and a lousy in-game coach and had no connections of his own so had Shula forced on him as OC, and Bettcher as DC (is he even in the NFL anymore?). But Shurmur at least had the excuse that he was calling plays so his focus in other areas was compromised. Judge has no such excuse. The offense also scored points with Shurmur, with two different quarterbacks and a garbage offensive line, though it was not some offensive juggernaut.

Under Judge the offense cannot score points, they play a bend and then break style of defense, went on a big FA spending spree on offense and defense and the team in his second year looks to be circling the drain. Sure there are injuries. Mcadoos 2017 squad was riddled with injuries as well.

It's looking to me like Judge is the worst of the three, which is really saying something given how terrible Mcadoo and Shurmur were.

How is it possible the team has been going backwards or at best spinning its wheels since what we all thought would have been the low point of 2017?
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Hard to admit  
BlueHurricane : 12/6/2021 10:45 am : link
But yes.

This team is just unlikeable. Soft and boring. I have said in the past I have never turned off a Giants game until recently. Now by the fourth quarter I’m on redzone.
McAdoo was the best clearly. 11 wins  
Sean : 12/6/2021 10:46 am : link
Judge is 10-18 through 28 games
Shurmur was 7-21 through 28 games

Judge is better than Shurmur, but that is not saying much.
Yes at least with Shurmer/Mcadoo  
Bleedblue10 : 12/6/2021 10:46 am : link
We were able to score points. Judge is in way over his head and to quote the great Tiki Barber.... "It's almost comical"
Yes  
Essex : 12/6/2021 10:46 am : link
and I cannot believe I am typing this, but if you said I could have Shurmur or Judge next year, but only one of them, I would pick Shurmur. As I said, I cannot believe I typed that.
RE: Hard to admit  
Bleedblue10 : 12/6/2021 10:48 am : link
In comment 15483599 BlueHurricane said:
Quote:
But yes.

This team is just unlikeable. Soft and boring. I have said in the past I have never turned off a Giants game until recently. Now by the fourth quarter I’m on redzone.


Same here,
win or lose, rain or shine I never shut off a game and I have done that a few times this year. I hate that it's come to this but the affection I had for this team is starting to fade away. It's just not entertaining on any level
RE: RE: Hard to admit  
Essex : 12/6/2021 10:50 am : link
In comment 15483612 Bleedblue10 said:
Quote:
In comment 15483599 BlueHurricane said:


Quote:


But yes.

This team is just unlikeable. Soft and boring. I have said in the past I have never turned off a Giants game until recently. Now by the fourth quarter I’m on redzone.



Same here,
win or lose, rain or shine I never shut off a game and I have done that a few times this year. I hate that it's come to this but the affection I had for this team is starting to fade away. It's just not entertaining on any level

I never turn off games either, but I switched to the Redzone during the Rams game in the second half. That was an absolute joke
Yes  
jeff57 : 12/6/2021 10:50 am : link
He's simply not ready for prime time. The Maras have to stop taking whatever Belichick and Saban recommend as gospel.
Yeah I think so  
Route 9 : 12/6/2021 10:51 am : link
I don't think I've spent one second taking Joe Judge seriously. Very hard to do when he looks like some kid who looks as if he won a ridiculous contest and got to be a head coach for his favorite team for a few years.

I thought it would be very hard to be more of a joke than McAdoo (post haircut) and I hated even the idea of hiring Shurmur as a HC. Judge was a pure Giants hire.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 12/6/2021 10:52 am : link
They all suck. All clowns.
Being an awful gameday manager  
JonC : 12/6/2021 10:53 am : link
got Shurmur fired, and Judge is even worse. The team hasn't quit playing for him, but it's impossible to look past how bad he's been on gameday in 2021.
Just watching the Giants weekly  
Essex : 12/6/2021 10:53 am : link
shows that Judge is like a Rich Kotite type of hire. McAdoo and Shurmur were bad hires and terrible coaches for different reasons, but they were not Rich kotite.
Shurmur was the worst  
giantstock : 12/6/2021 10:55 am : link
Part of coaching is not having team quit on you. I felt Shurmur was most clueless.
Judge used to get me (and I believe many on BBI)  
Beezer : 12/6/2021 10:56 am : link
fired up with his quick lip and run-on answers. I really believed.

Now I hear him talking and I just want him to shut the fuck up.

I don't know if he's better or worse than those guys. I know it's all been pretty damn bad, including the year they made the playoffs. That ended up a train wreck, in and of itself.
I admit I was wrong on Judge  
Paulie Walnuts : 12/6/2021 10:57 am : link
I though he was our guy last year
I hate the revolving door of coaches,and so does Mara, so this is maybe the only thing that saves JJ.
He has been vert poor this year with his game and time management Plus his preseason player management was terrible
RE: ...  
BigBlueJ : 12/6/2021 10:59 am : link
In comment 15483621 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
They all suck. All clowns.


This, so let us refrain from the recently bias cantrip. The only reason we scored any points under Macadoo was because of ODB. The offense was God awful the year we went to the playoffs. There is no need to compare any of these coaches because they were all terrible. The only difference for me is I personally do not like Joe Judge. Something I have always had been indifferent toward.
RE: Shurmur was the worst  
jeff57 : 12/6/2021 11:00 am : link
In comment 15483627 giantstock said:
Quote:
Part of coaching is not having team quit on you. I felt Shurmur was most clueless.


He got the most out of Jones and Barkley.
I would like Shurm as OC  
mattlawson : 12/6/2021 11:01 am : link
And graham as DC.

And a couple more OL and a pass rusher and then let’s see what we got
Definitely worse than Shurmur  
Breeze_94 : 12/6/2021 11:03 am : link
With Shurmur, the Giants were at least a competent NFL offense (with a bad Oline). Shurmur was a good offensive mind and Jones has regressed since he left.

Developing your young QB is much more important than whatever it is the Giants think Judge brings to the table. He’s a special teams guy and they haven’t created one explosive play in the return game since he’s been here, and consistently punt the ball into the end zone after he decides to punt on 4th and 2 or less
Paulie mentioned the disdain for the revolving door ...  
Beezer : 12/6/2021 11:05 am : link
I get that. Agreed.

Maybe if anything I'd say Judge gets to stick for 1/2 next season to show actual improvement. The Giants are 2-6, 3-7 next year? Gone.

I also hate that, though, because then you've got a situation more entrenched with Judge-isms.

Maybe best to bring in a new head coach with Abrams (I hope it's not him, but come on ... it's going to be), and allow this new head coach to hire his own damn staff.

Pipedream, I know.
RE: ...  
Route 9 : 12/6/2021 11:05 am : link
In comment 15483621 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
They all suck. All clowns.


Yep. Exactly. Nothing more exciting than disputing "who is the biggest clown" with all these head coaches.

How about we start winning sometime soon?
He's probably the worst Giant coach I've seen  
ghost718 : 12/6/2021 11:06 am : link
which puts him high in the running for worst coach of any team
Judge has shown us who he is  
Bold Ruler : Mod : 12/6/2021 11:07 am : link
I bet we retain him and he still sucks as a game day manager next year.
Moe, Larry and Curly  
HomerJones45 : 12/6/2021 11:07 am : link
Moe at least got a playoff game out if his big money free agent spend.

Shurmur never got the big dollar spend the other two did. Just a guess, but if he had the big dollar free agents the other two did, he might have one another couple of games.

Judge got the big dollar spend and the team still sucks.

This "lost the locker room" standard is nonsense. Lots of bad coaches had teams that played hard (or thought they were playing hard) and were loved in the locker room. Sometimes they were loved because they were patsies. Lots of good coaches Landry, Lombardi, Noll, Lil Bill and dare I say Parcells and Coughlin were not universally loved in the locker room but had some small record of success.

Judge is a know-it-all who apparently knows very little and has shown zero results despite unprecedented levels of support. I don't give a fuck whether he's "lost the locker room" or not, he's proven to be a bad head coach and needs to be shown the door.
Judges fall from grace  
mittenedman : 12/6/2021 11:11 am : link
is fascinating. I loved him last year as most Giants fans did.

10 days later he was a pumpkin. Thats how horribly coached those 1st 2 weeks were.

RE: Judges fall from grace  
Route 9 : 12/6/2021 11:14 am : link
In comment 15483659 mittenedman said:
Quote:
is fascinating. I loved him last year as most Giants fans did.

10 days later he was a pumpkin. Thats how horribly coached those 1st 2 weeks were.


The Washington game fuck up pissed a lot of people off on here. Me being one of them.
Yes for sure  
Jerry in_DC : 12/6/2021 11:17 am : link
None are good coaches but the others at least have something redeeming

McAdoo actually won football games. Hard to believe it happened here, but it did, as much as people like to pretend that 2016 didn't exist. Good coach? No. But he did accomplish something

Shurmur is a bad HC but good offensive coach. He brought something to table

Judge seems to have no specific skills and he's a horrendous game manager. What does he actually do? What does he bring to the team? Unclear, but possibly nothing. Also he loses a lot and in really boring ways.
I dunno  
darktimes : 12/6/2021 11:21 am : link
McAdoo had OBJ and Eli working well together which won them a lot of games against bad teams.

Judge has shit on Offense. Defense is middle of the road.
Kind of like  
wonderback : 12/6/2021 11:21 am : link
Being the worlds tallest midget!
Using Mara's Own Words  
Bernie : 12/6/2021 11:23 am : link
Is the team headed in the right direction? The obvious answer is no. JJ has become a tone deaf joke. While I originally was all for giving him a 3rd year, given what we witnessed 2 of the last 3 weeks, this entire thing needs to be blown up and let the new GM pick his head coach and structure the front office and football operations how he sees fit. I get it's a frightening proposition, but the status quo is equally depressing and shows zero signs of turning things around.
I understand not  
Scooter185 : 12/6/2021 11:33 am : link
Wanting to continue the revolving door of HCs, but continuity for continuity sake with the wrong people is even worse. Remember JG was kept around for continuity, and we all saw how that played out.
No one was worse than Shurmur  
Ben in Tampa : 12/6/2021 11:34 am : link
And it was known what he was before he was hired and they did it anyway.

They took a calculated risk with Judge, and it appears to have not panned out. I can at least stomach that they tried something new and Judge failed.

I think Mcadoo was a clown, and if he hadn’t benched a franchise hero for Geno fucking Smith, who knows. He may still be coach. Judge and Shurmur have accomplished nothing even close to Mcadoo.

What a sad state this franchise finds itself in.
I disagree a bit about your rationale for  
Section331 : 12/6/2021 11:36 am : link
McAdoo’s firing. While the Eli benching may have been the final straw, McAdoo had completely lost control of the locker room. No players still respected him. Even if he started Eli the rest of the season, he was gone.
Shurmur's offense is great for stat padding  
widmerseyebrow : 12/6/2021 11:37 am : link
and propping up mediocre quarterbacks. Against playoff defenses? Not so much.
People  
allstarjim : 12/6/2021 11:39 am : link
Are actually saying we had a good offense under McAdoo.

I remember when Giants' fans were among the most knowledgeable fans of any sports organization.
All three  
TroutMan : 12/6/2021 11:48 am : link
have their own unique level of suckitude.

Right now he is looking downright awful  
Batenhorst7 : 12/6/2021 11:57 am : link
I was in his camp.....now I'm not so sure
RE: Shurmur's offense is great for stat padding  
Essex : 12/6/2021 11:58 am : link
In comment 15483721 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
and propping up mediocre quarterbacks. Against playoff defenses? Not so much.

Shurmur was a terrible playcaller who had no feel for the rhythm of a game. See that Philadelphia game in Philly his last year here. Nobody is pining for Shurmur; we are just commenting about HOW BAD Judge is and how he is even worse than Shurmur.
RE: Being an awful gameday manager  
Carson53 : 12/6/2021 12:06 pm : link
In comment 15483623 JonC said:
Quote:
got Shurmur fired, and Judge is even worse. The team hasn't quit playing for him, but it's impossible to look past how bad he's been on gameday in 2021.
.

On top of that, he doesn't 'coach to win', too conservative
at times. Look at least week for example against the Iggles...
late in the game when Giants are trying to run out the clock.
The operative word is trying....on second down, lets have Jones roll to the right and fall down, on 3rd down, roll to the left and fall down.
That's not coaching to win, just a microcosm of his coaching style.
RE: RE: Shurmur's offense is great for stat padding  
Route 9 : 12/6/2021 12:08 pm : link
In comment 15483769 Essex said:
Quote:
Shurmur was a terrible playcaller who had no feel for the rhythm of a game. See that Philadelphia game in Philly his last year here. Nobody is pining for Shurmur; we are just commenting about HOW BAD Judge is and how he is even worse than Shurmur.


I thought he was even more horrific with his head coaching decisions in the 2018 game in Philly around Thanksgiving time. Holy shit. Philly had no business winning that game but because Pat Shurmur is a complete moron they won somehow. Fucking ridiculous.

His last game here was one of the most embarrassing Giant games ever. Getting blown out by a bunch of scrubs off the street against your "core" roster. Jones, Barkley, Shepherd, Golden Tate, Evan engram ALL played. You think this is a game where they would get going on offense? No. It's the other way around.... they're the ones getting blown out.

If you can't figure out how bad these players are after that one, you don't have a clue about anything.
.  
Banks : 12/6/2021 12:15 pm : link
he's worse. He makes worse decisions and brings nothing special to any unit. At least Shurmur's offense at times looked good. Bmac went 11-5 one year. I couldn't stand him as the OC or HC, but you can't take that away from him.
I don't think so  
Joey in VA : 12/6/2021 12:19 pm : link
This team just flat quit on McAdoo and Shurmur. As a game manager he needs help obviously but I have not totally lost faith. I did a few weeks ago but the deeper I look, the more I see Mara and DGs fingerprints as the real culprits. I think he can turn it around, but I think he needs a GM who shares the scouting parameters he uses and his own QB.
It's a dead heat - I think Big Mac may have him by a nose  
PatersonPlank : 12/6/2021 1:00 pm : link
.
RE: Yes at least with Shurmer/Mcadoo  
dpinzow : 12/6/2021 1:01 pm : link
In comment 15483603 Bleedblue10 said:
Quote:
We were able to score points. Judge is in way over his head and to quote the great Tiki Barber.... "It's almost comical"


We couldn't score points with McAdoo
At least Shurmur had an offense  
Justlurking : 12/6/2021 1:26 pm : link
Giants were terrible but his offense was light years better than this shitshow.

Regardless, no one could win with this roster. Front office is a disgrace. Why is Gettleman still employed?
he's better  
bronxct1 : 12/6/2021 1:37 pm : link
Judge has already had two better seasons than Shurmur did. He's won more games already with 5 more games to go.

McAdoo had a defense that won him a ton of games but his 2nd year was so disastrous that I think Judge is still a better coach than him. That offense was bad under him as well.

It's ugly right now but Judge is still faring better than those two did if you look at the body of work as a whole. I'm more inclined to let Judge keep at it and continue to build a roster vs. the other two.

The end of this year may be ugly just given the fact that if Jones plays the QB situation is terrible.




terrible coach  
adambear : 12/6/2021 1:39 pm : link
great excuse maker
I know this is  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 12/6/2021 1:43 pm : link
not overly popular on BBI, but I wish Mara simply had made a big push for Saban years ago.
 
christian : 12/6/2021 2:04 pm : link
I wish the Giants had fired Reese and Coughlin, and hired Jon Robinson as GM after the 2015 season.
Kind of off topic..  
Sean : 12/6/2021 2:11 pm : link
But I wonder if Sean Payton would be available, wonder if Mara would go down that road.
RE: Kind of off topic..  
japanhead : 12/6/2021 2:57 pm : link
In comment 15484055 Sean said:
Quote:
But I wonder if Sean Payton would be available, wonder if Mara would go down that road.


i think one of the problems the giants will run into is, what established coach who is worth their salt, is going to walk into an organizational structure like the giants? although rivera took the redskins job and that organization, at least until recently, seemed to be even more dysfunctional than the giants.

since i think we're all pretty much resigned to judge getting a default 3rd year that he probably doesn't deserve (given that their 2x SB winning coach tom coughlin was fired after two 6-10 seasons), the more pressing question is, what GM who is worth their salt is going to want to come to an organizaton where there is a mandate from the owner about who the coach and quarterback are going to be?

i understand mara doesn't want to pay judge for three years to fuck off, and apparently "likes" him or some shit, but this is why it's easy to see them hiring spinless yes-man and "cap guru" kevin abrams. what other choices will there be? look at the candidates they brought in for the last GM search. it'd be laughable if it wasn't so sad.
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