Mcadoo got the Giants to the playoffs in 2016. Yes you can argue it was with Coughlin's team, etc etc, but it happened. Mcadoo also wanted to move up to draft Mahomes, but was rebuffed by a front office who selected Davis Webb in the third round on the advice of Chris Mara. First round pick in 2017 was Evan Engram. Mcadoo was hung out to dry for the fallout over the Eli benching, which was really the fault of the owner.
Shurmur was an uninspiring presence and a lousy in-game coach and had no connections of his own so had Shula forced on him as OC, and Bettcher as DC (is he even in the NFL anymore?). But Shurmur at least had the excuse that he was calling plays so his focus in other areas was compromised. Judge has no such excuse. The offense also scored points with Shurmur, with two different quarterbacks and a garbage offensive line, though it was not some offensive juggernaut.
Under Judge the offense cannot score points, they play a bend and then break style of defense, went on a big FA spending spree on offense and defense and the team in his second year looks to be circling the drain. Sure there are injuries. Mcadoos 2017 squad was riddled with injuries as well.
It's looking to me like Judge is the worst of the three, which is really saying something given how terrible Mcadoo and Shurmur were.
How is it possible the team has been going backwards or at best spinning its wheels since what we all thought would have been the low point of 2017?
And Slayton.
Glennon took two unnecessary sacks yesterday and missed a wide open Ross for a 1st down.
Judge needs to improve but this team is talent deficient, especially after the injuries.
RE: what kind of man he is. Some of you sound like a bunch of shrill teenage girls. You have no clue what the guy is like. And what f'n difference does that make?
All 3 coaches lacked the ability to motivate and lead an NFL team, in my opinion.
2016 - McAdoo lucked into a year of outperformance on defense in 2016. He had Odell Beckham still taking the top off defenses and breaking huge gains every week.
In general, 2016 was a dead-cat bounce for the Giants via free agency. Jenkins was All-Pro level, Landon Collins should have won DPOY, Apple wasn't terrible, and they had a really effective front seven, bolstered by Snacks Harrison. I think people forget how good the Giants' defense was the second half of that year, but I don't think McAdoo deserves credit for that; Spags does. (That defense was ranked #3 in DVOA, and down the stretch they were ascending. They were probably the best defense in football in the second half of the season, until they ran into Rodgers.)
2017 - The other shoe drops for McAdoo, who proves out of his depth when the going gets rough. The 2017 season was a tire fire, worse than any other. McAdoo deserves blame, though it was a cautionary tale in "building via free agency." All of the big FA acquisitions from 2016 collapsed (and Landon Collins lost a step or two).
2018 - Shurmur was... meh. I think Eli's decline phase accelerated that year, which hurt. But if Gettleman had done what he should have--which was trade back or draft the "gold jacket" guard--the Giants would be in a lot better shape. Instead, Barkley papered over some of the issues that the offense had.
2019 - Shurmur probably and ironically seals his fate by going to Jones in Week 3. If Jones had been held back longer Shurmur might have gotten another year to see what he could do with the young QB. Jones was the wrong pick; they should have given Eli one final year. "Redshirting" rookie QBs just doesn't work with rookie contract slotting.
Shurmur was probably a bit out of his depth too--a very good offensive coordinator that can't run a staff. But I think a lot of his problem was that he didn't hire a good staff at all.
2020 - Judge's first year. The Giants played a lot of good teams close last year. (See: the Tampa game.) I thought it was impressive, given their obvious talent deficiencies. The error that season was Jason Garrett. If you wanted Joe Judge, Judge should have gotten to pick one of his own guys to run the offense. It probably set Jones' development back a while, and possibly Andrew Thomas, too. (Thomas was a good pick who improved once Garrett's pick for OL coach was fired.)
2021 - This has been a rough year to watch. In part this is because of the trade down--they deliberately postponed cashing in draft value in preparation for the future. (This is actually to DG's credit, as they would probably have an extra win or two if they'd drafted Parsons or Slater, and DG would not be on such a hot seat.) They have also been quite hurt: really, they've gotten next to nothing from 3 of their top 4 draft picks because of injuries, and every one of their "weapons" has been battling injuries all year, and without the weapons, the line's deficiencies are made manifest. But that's on Gettleman as well.
So, as I look back:
2016 - good year, brought about by an overperforming defense and a superstar WR.
2017 - Reese's draft failures catch up to them as everything comes crashing down.
2018 - Blessed with incredible draft capital, Gettleman blows it all on Barkley, who makes the team look better than it actually is for a little while. He also brings in aged rentals like Ogletree for actual draft capital. In the moment, it was obvious that you'd rather have Nick Chubb and Quenton Nelson than Saquon Barkley and Will Hernandez, but the Giants don't see it, because "you can't take a guard #2" or some nonsense.
2019 - Gettleman rushes the QB pick, instead of leaning into his "win it with Eli" strategy, squandering draft value again. He should have waited for 2020. He also:
-- Drafts an obvious nose tackle--even though NT is one of the few positions of strength on the team--and decides he's a defensive end.
-- Trades up for a cornerback that is his single worst pick, with 6 or 7 CBs on the board that are all similarly graded.
2020 - Ownership creates a mismatch on offense between Judge and his OC, setting back the QB's development. They also don't follow the "correct" template, which is to bring in a new coach, GM, and QB all at once. (I would not have done so; I didn't like any of the QBs in 2018 except Mayfield. But this is part of their problem right now.)
2021 - Another free agent binge falls apart due to injuries. The 2018 draft class officially crashes and burns, with the 2019 class not far behind.
I don't think Judge has distinguished himself, but I think the issues are clearly with personnel--and more broadly the lack of *strategy* of personnel--more than coaching.
If the new GM wants to pick his coach, that's fine by me; I don't think Judge has done enough to "deserve" another year. But Judge has been in an impossible situation, even if he is more conservative on gameday than I'd like. The roster is bad right now, period, and even when completely healthy, was not good, and was quite thin on the lines.
You have that record, plain and simple, you're bad.
I think Judge gets another year. Fine with me because I really don't give a shit. Keep losing. Who cares about it at this point?
I think the defense last year did do an OK job trying to make up for how awful the offense was. They could've beaten the Rams last year but Jones had such a shitty game. They could've beat the Bears as well but blew that, too. Even in that Tampa Bay game the mistakes that Jones made were so costly. Even when Jones does play pretty well, Judge will cancel him out with his stupid coaching.
It's the same fucking story as last year. They just don't score points. I barely watched the game yesterday and the drive stalled and they settled for a FG. Pathetic.
Go ahead. Bring back Jones bring back judge. I'll be watching less and less. How people watch every second of this trash is mind-boggling. Best of luck.
It was really weird to me the way that in 2016 we won a bunch of close games and made it to 11-5, and then it was absolutely insane how QUICKLY the wheels completely fell off in 2017. OK yes we started off 0-2 with 2 bad performances. Fine. Then we lost 3 straight games on a few bad bounces here and there by 5 points, 2 points, 3 points, and we were 0-5. The media did everything they could to stir shit up like crazy (as the NY media enjoys doing) but the players in the locker room took the bait so easily! There was suddenly a massive amount of infighting and finger pointing in the locker room. In retrospect, there was simply no veteran presence to calm the waters (Tuck and Osi were long gone as were many others and Eli was never a very vocal leader). The seeds were sown by week 5 so that each individual loss (especially a convincing loss) would make everything exponentially worse, and it did.
On top of that McAdoo didn't have the experience required to get a hold of it (McAdoo with the new slicked back haircut still forever be the most ridiculous image ever in my head). There was already a massive uproar for McAdoo to be fired. Each loss just seemed to compound and compound and it was clear McAdoo and the team had bought ZERO leeway with that 2016 playoff appearance. So then feeling that he was probably going to be fired he benched Eli and desperately tried a different QB, and obviously that simply made everything 10x worse.
I still to this day wonder if the team and McAdoo had just kept their cool and never listened to all the outside nonsense about how they suck and how McAdoo will be canned etc. could they have survived 2017? The New York fanbase and media is always just malicious as hell any time a team goes on anything longer than a 3 game losing streak (people wanted Coughlin fired like 38 separate time), it's just that I think we just have come to expect the players and coaches will let it roll off their backs and just stay even-keel. That 2017 Giants team certainly didn't. They just let every word, every whisper, every spun rumor by the media get to them and they self-destructed. And here everyone thought we were just going to replace McAdoo and we'd get back to the old Coughlin/Parcells Giants winning way.... but here we are 4 years later and we've been the worst team in the league record-wise over that span.
BTW-- random but I don't blame Coughlin for not shaking Mara's hand that day he got let go.
Defense was worst under Shurmur but i think that was due to talent. But the offense was better under Shurmer's 2 years than any of the last 6 years.
Shurmer is a bad HC but he's a good OC imo, I think the mistake was hiring Garrett and changing the offensive philosophy. They should have hired someone who's offense was similar to Shurmer where Jones looked his best as a passer.
As for Judge I think he may be the worst of the 3 because both sides of the ball aren't great under him and he makes WAY to many mistakes other head coaches do. He's in over his head.
Defense was worst under Shurmur but i think that was due to talent. But the offense was better under Shurmer's 2 years than any of the last 6 years.
Shurmer is a bad HC but he's a good OC imo, I think the mistake was hiring Garrett and changing the offensive philosophy. They should have hired someone who's offense was similar to Shurmer where Jones looked his best as a passer.
As for Judge I think he may be the worst of the 3 because both sides of the ball aren't great under him and he makes WAY to many mistakes other head coaches do. He's in over his head.
The team and coach were mentally weak and gave up on each other at the very first slightest sign of adversity-- that's what happened from 2016 to 2017.
Also-- Let's remember that the games in weeks 3-5 in 2017 were at least close and we lost on some tough bounces/calls, and week 5 was the game Odell broke his ankle. We beat the Broncos the following week but other than were were very rarely competitive after that.
I blame Ereck Flowers... I don't even know for what but a lot of shit lol. He was the worst offensive lineman to ever stop foot on an NFL field and it isn't even close. Couple that with the fact he was protecting the blindside of a 35+ yr old QB who was never mobile to begin with.
I think Eli and Beckham hooking up on those short routes and Beckham often turning them into big gains may have covered up how bad the o-line was in 2016. Basically Flowers went from bad to worse from 2016 to 2017 I think and defenses just started attacking him because they knew he was the worst offensive lineman ever. Eli had no one to throw to and was seeing ghosts and the awfulness couldn't be covered up any longer.
Those close games we'd won in 2016 we ended up losing, and then the wheels literally fell off by week 5 because there were no real vocal vets around (nor Coughlin anymore) to get shit in line and keep the players from getting wrapped up in the shitty NY media. So things pretty quickly just spun out of control.
Imagine if Coughlin had actually listened to any poyndexter in the media who told him he was gonna get fired. You think he ever gave a fuck? lol imagine a reporter telling Coughlin he might get fired so he benches Eli to try to prove it's Eli's fault not his. Would never happen. The entire team including McAdoo was weak-minded and got eaten alive by the NY media. Once they lost a few everything went to hell in a handbasket within literally a matter of weeks.
2016 - good year, brought about by an overperforming defense and a superstar WR.
2017 - Reese's draft failures catch up to them as everything comes crashing down.
2018 - Blessed with incredible draft capital, Gettleman blows it all on Barkley, who makes the team look better than it actually is for a little while. He also brings in aged rentals like Ogletree for actual draft capital. In the moment, it was obvious that you'd rather have Nick Chubb and Quenton Nelson than Saquon Barkley and Will Hernandez, but the Giants don't see it, because "you can't take a guard #2" or some nonsense.
2019 - Gettleman rushes the QB pick, instead of leaning into his "win it with Eli" strategy, squandering draft value again. He should have waited for 2020. He also:
-- Drafts an obvious nose tackle--even though NT is one of the few positions of strength on the team--and decides he's a defensive end.
-- Trades up for a cornerback that is his single worst pick, with 6 or 7 CBs on the board that are all similarly graded.
2020 - Ownership creates a mismatch on offense between Judge and his OC, setting back the QB's development. They also don't follow the "correct" template, which is to bring in a new coach, GM, and QB all at once. (I would not have done so; I didn't like any of the QBs in 2018 except Mayfield. But this is part of their problem right now.)
2021 - Another free agent binge falls apart due to injuries. The 2018 draft class officially crashes and burns, with the 2019 class not far behind.
I don't think Judge has distinguished himself, but I think the issues are clearly with personnel--and more broadly the lack of *strategy* of personnel--more than coaching.
If the new GM wants to pick his coach, that's fine by me; I don't think Judge has done enough to "deserve" another year. But Judge has been in an impossible situation, even if he is more conservative on gameday than I'd like. The roster is bad right now, period, and even when completely healthy, was not good, and was quite thin on the lines.
I think the big mistake in hiring Garrett was the complete change in offensive philosophy. Jones looked fine his rookie year, they fired Shurmur because he wasn't a good head coach so instead of hiring an OC who's offense was able to maximize Jone's ability, they hired Garrett because of his past Giants ties. That is the problem with this organization. They don't make good football decisions and all decisions are made with tunnel vision. They didn't hire Garrett because he was good for Jones, they probably didn't know what his offense was. They are just stuck in the "Giant way" philosophy and that's it.
Quote:
2016 - good year, brought about by an overperforming defense and a superstar WR.
2017 - Reese's draft failures catch up to them as everything comes crashing down.
2018 - Blessed with incredible draft capital, Gettleman blows it all on Barkley, who makes the team look better than it actually is for a little while. He also brings in aged rentals like Ogletree for actual draft capital. In the moment, it was obvious that you'd rather have Nick Chubb and Quenton Nelson than Saquon Barkley and Will Hernandez, but the Giants don't see it, because "you can't take a guard #2" or some nonsense.
2019 - Gettleman rushes the QB pick, instead of leaning into his "win it with Eli" strategy, squandering draft value again. He should have waited for 2020. He also:
-- Drafts an obvious nose tackle--even though NT is one of the few positions of strength on the team--and decides he's a defensive end.
-- Trades up for a cornerback that is his single worst pick, with 6 or 7 CBs on the board that are all similarly graded.
2020 - Ownership creates a mismatch on offense between Judge and his OC, setting back the QB's development. They also don't follow the "correct" template, which is to bring in a new coach, GM, and QB all at once. (I would not have done so; I didn't like any of the QBs in 2018 except Mayfield. But this is part of their problem right now.)
2021 - Another free agent binge falls apart due to injuries. The 2018 draft class officially crashes and burns, with the 2019 class not far behind.
I don't think Judge has distinguished himself, but I think the issues are clearly with personnel--and more broadly the lack of *strategy* of personnel--more than coaching.
If the new GM wants to pick his coach, that's fine by me; I don't think Judge has done enough to "deserve" another year. But Judge has been in an impossible situation, even if he is more conservative on gameday than I'd like. The roster is bad right now, period, and even when completely healthy, was not good, and was quite thin on the lines.
I think the big mistake in hiring Garrett was the complete change in offensive philosophy. Jones looked fine his rookie year, they fired Shurmur because he wasn't a good head coach so instead of hiring an OC who's offense was able to maximize Jone's ability, they hired Garrett because of his past Giants ties. That is the problem with this organization. They don't make good football decisions and all decisions are made with tunnel vision. They didn't hire Garrett because he was good for Jones, they probably didn't know what his offense was. They are just stuck in the "Giant way" philosophy and that's it.
EXACTLY. I think this point about Garrett not fitting Jones is an extremely crucial one. Garrett isn't an elite OC to begin with, but throw on top of that that his system doesn't maximize Jones's skill set (Jones's skill set was specifically ideal for Shurmur's system) you just end up with a dumpster fire.
Considering "getting the QB right" is the first and most important aspect of a franchise, I'd say we only further doomed ourselves with that Garrett move. How could DJ have prospered? I mean I don't think DJ will ever be an elite QB anyway (he's never shown flashes of that even) but he could've been a decent starter IMO if he just had the right system. At this point it's too late-- there's no reason to double-down on a QB who we don't believe can be elite anyway. But the Giants were never set up for success to begin with even when they hired Judge because hiring Garrett was a step backward just because of the lack of fit.
Mara I think in theory believes it's best he stays out of football decisions, but then he's like "awww nah I'd like to make a teency weency football decision, like hiring our OC because he's good True Blue values and a good friend." Like dude that is NOT a small decision lol it was probably our downfall the last 2 years. Not being able to score in the redzone and put points on the board has made the difference between us at least contending for a WC spot vs. being completely out of it in early December.
2016's offense would've looked like 2017's offense if OBJ wasn't in the mix for 2016.
The 2017 team was supposed to go far. They got unlucky with OBJ getting hit low in the preseason game against the Browns.
The thing about that year (of course the Eagles bowl) that sucks is that bad year just got the Giants Barkley ... and here we are today.
Hate to say it but Barkley was a bad pick at #2 and Jones was even worse decision at #6 with Eli still on the team.