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It's [still] the offensive line, stupid

Josh in the City : 12/6/2021 12:05 pm
There's a LOT of negativity on this board right now, and rightfully so. People are angry at a lot of people within the Giants organization from ownership, to the GM, to the coaches and players. But, to me, we have the same overarching problem today that we've had for the past 5 years and that's a severe lack of talent of poor performance from our offensive line.

Our defense started a bit slow early in the year but has been very good for most of the season and has kept us in games that could have easily turned into blowouts. But our offense continues to be unable to score consistently or when needed. And while there are legitimate questions about the QB, the RB, and even the WR's, the truth is that it's been virtually impossible to even evaluate any of them due to the absolutely horrendous play of our oline. On running plays, there is legitimately no holes to run through let alone any sort of push up front. And when we drop back to pass, the QB's are forced to either throw quickly to their first read or take a chance at getting destroyed.

And that leads us back to the one person responsible for the roster, the General Manager. From his introductory press conference, he said he was going to focus on and fix the line.

Quote:
“We’ve got to fix the o-line, let’s be honest. Let’s not kid each other. I believe in the ‘hog mollies. We’ve had some great groups here, had great groups everywhere I’ve been, and we’re going to get back to that. They do allow you to compete.”


But unfortunately, 4 years into his tenure, he has completely failed to improve the oline at all. In fact, it could be argued that it's worse today than it was when he first got here.

The fact is, unless we can figure out a way to fix this oline, it will be impossible for this team to have any success. And more frustratingly, it will be impossible to truly evaluate the roster. We need to move on from Gettleman after the season and find someone who can finally get this thing fixed. And if that new GM can work with Judge then so be it but you do NOT force a potentially lame duck coach on a new general manager hire (which will also limit the pool of candidates). We MUST get this next hire right or we'll be having this same conversation 4 years from now.
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2 Year Stabilize Plan  
Jimmy Googs : 12/6/2021 12:45 pm : link
- Keep Thomas and Peart as Tackles
- Keep Gates as Center
- Keep Lemieux, Bredeson and Skura (maybe) as Guards
- Get rid of everybody else
- Do not presume Gates & Lemieux are de facto starters

2022:
- Sign moderately priced Right Guard in Free Agency to start at one spot. Let other 3 Guards above battle it out as to who starts at Left Guard and other two guys become reserves.
- Draft a Tackle and a Center on Day 1 & 2. Peart and rookie battle it out for starting Right Tackle job, loser becomes reserve Tackle. Same with Gates and rookie Center.

2023:
- Upgrade Left Guard spot with Day 2 pick.
- Draft another Tackle for roster with a Day 3 pick.
- If Gates/Lemieux start breaking down from injuries then need to discard/replace during this Free Agency period.

Review and let me know of any edits, and then will forward onto Front Office...
RE: Going into this season knowing you had to evaluate your QB  
j_rud : 12/6/2021 12:48 pm : link
In comment 15483846 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
and they just expected, with no evidence, that Matt Peart would be great.

Likewise with Shane Lemiuex. They'd say it was hopeful, anyone outside the organization recognizes it as negligence.
With the rate talented WRs  
JB_in_DC : 12/6/2021 12:49 pm : link
are entering the league, and the scarcity of quality blockers across the league - the Giants need to adjust their use of cap resources with respect to weapons and line play to reflect the supply.
if the giants want to fix OL this year  
hitdog42 : 12/6/2021 12:54 pm : link
it will be value and need at same point
the iowa kid is a top 8 prospect at center--- who cares that he is a center you draft him and check the box for 10yrs.
there are multiple other tackles that will be in that window--- miss st/bama/nc st to start.

if there is a stud LB (dont care if its edge or middle)- then sure take them.

point being drafting OL this year will not look like reaching.
and if they refuse to take interior because "its too high"- then shame on them
Was hopeful for SL  
Payasdaddy : 12/6/2021 12:57 pm : link
He had some holes but also had some real success in 2020
Think he would’ve been more pro than con in 2021
Gates a big loss. Definitely above average to good OC
Right side would’ve still stunk but at least 3/5ths of oline May have been semi good
Hog mollies. DG just shit the bed. 4 yrs. I would’ve kept drafting oline till I got it right. He should be fired just for that ( besides everything else)
RE: if the giants want to fix OL this year  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/6/2021 12:57 pm : link
In comment 15483923 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
if they refuse to take interior because "its too high"- then shame on them


I have really hated this bit of wisdom. If the pick works no one cares how high you drafted them when you're scoring points and your QB isn't on his back.

There are some positions that can be drafted too high, but that isn't one of them.
If you don't have a good OL  
jeff57 : 12/6/2021 12:57 pm : link
You can't win. It's that simple. Giants run blocking is actually worse than their pass blocking.
RE: RE: Yes the OL is a big issue but let's not forget injuries as well  
USAF NYG Fan : 12/6/2021 12:57 pm : link
In comment 15483898 bradshaw44 said:
Quote:
I’ll say this again. You damn sure can judge coaches on what they get from bench players. Look at Washington. Their BACK UP center went down in game against Seattle. The third or fourth string guy came in and did damn well for fourth string. Washington continues to get better even after losing their two best ERs. Coaching can absolutely be judged when there are injuries.

Player groups are harder to judge. But coaching is absolutely reflected through bench players. If coaches always have to have top notch players then why don’t all coaches win when their team is loaded with talent? Look at the drop off of Dallas when they went from Jimmy to Barry. Barry road the talent for a year and then fell off.


But they haven't been hit as hard overall as the Giants. We lost our starting OC, OG and then some. No consistent receiver to rely on. No RB that can overcome the bad OL. Defense has seen it's share of injuries as well. TEs can't stay healthy. Nobody on the OL can stay healthy. QBs can't stay healthy. WRs can't stay healthy. Right now it looks like WR 1, 2, and 3 will be out next week.

However, I honestly don't know the fix. I don't think it's all on Judge (a first time HC). Maybe DG because he grabs a player like Golladay with an injury history. Not sure.

Overcoming 1 or 2 positions with 3rd or 4th string players is one thing but it's like some weird injury virus is hiding in the Giants' locker room. It infects players with random injuries whenever they come into contact with it. Bring a priest in to bless the locker room or something.
it's both the OL and QB  
GiantsFan84 : 12/6/2021 1:01 pm : link
the OL stinks, i think we all agree on that but the QB play on this team is horrific and i don't think people on this board understand that enough. the QB play does this offensive line zero favors

jones and glennon are not good presnap at identifying the coverage or mismatches which causes them to hold the ball too long and throw to the wrong guy. there were a handful of plays yesterday where it was very clear presnap where the ball needed to go and glennon never even looked that way. this happens with jones as well.
The OP's point is the perfect reason why you can't draft a QB  
Hammer : 12/6/2021 1:03 pm : link
this year.

All of the draft capital has to be used to build the lines on both sides of the ball.

And if the value isn't there when the Giants pick, they should trade down and acquire more picks.

Drafting a new QB without fixing the line is foolish.

Doing so will doom the career of any kid that has to play behind this mess.
What JonC  
ajr2456 : 12/6/2021 1:09 pm : link
Said. You can’t just wait to go get the QB when everything else is ready to go. It doesn’t work like that.

If you rate a QB worthy of a top 5 pick you take him. Any new GM worth his salt should be able to find two quality olineman between rounds 2-4 and free agency if we passed on one round 1. Take the best players available.
RE: it's both the OL and QB  
Thunderstruck27 : 12/6/2021 1:09 pm : link
In comment 15483934 GiantsFan84 said:
Quote:
the OL stinks, i think we all agree on that but the QB play on this team is horrific and i don't think people on this board understand that enough. the QB play does this offensive line zero favors

jones and glennon are not good presnap at identifying the coverage or mismatches which causes them to hold the ball too long and throw to the wrong guy. there were a handful of plays yesterday where it was very clear presnap where the ball needed to go and glennon never even looked that way. this happens with jones as well.


Amazing you can tell all this when the majority of the time the coach doesn't get our plays in until there is less than 6 seconds on the playclock. True insight.
You guys need to watch some other teams  
HomerJones45 : 12/6/2021 1:17 pm : link
for something other than mindless entertainment.

Those of you raised on our mid-80's o-lines are living in the past. You can count the decent o-lines in the NFL on one hand- maybe not even that. We can debate the causes: the better college athletes moving to more highly compensated positions, rules changes that affect run blocking, lack of practice time, blitzing from all sorts of places on the line, better athletes on the defensive side etc.

Lots of teams are struggling with o-lines, lots of running attacks are hit or miss and lots of qb's are running for their lives.

So, you need skill players who can improvise when things inevitably break down which they will on 75% of the plays. RB's who can spot the crease and break through or who can plow into the defense with minimal assistance, wr who know what to do when the play goes to shit and qb's who can buy time, see the field and make a play.

What we don't have is the skill players with improv abilities. Barkley was never a pile driver despite the Happy Valley snow job, and he has lost his burst. Booker is a bum. Jones? Nice kid but forget it. Way overdrafted- not elusive and doesn't have the arm to make a defense pay when the play breaks down and the only receiver open ran a 25 yard square out- should have been a second day choice. The receivers? Golladay can improvise if you look his way and throw it up there. Shepard has been around long enough but no defense cares if he catches it or not. Toney is shifty enough to create his own. The rest? forget it, they barely know their route trees.

It's no accident that if you look at the bottom 15 teams in scoring, outside of Seattle and Atlanta, they all have rookie qb's or qb's really no one would want.

So, stop whining about the o-line. We are in the same boat with most of the other teams. We drafted badly at the skill positions and are paying the price.
RE: RE: it's both the OL and QB  
GiantsFan84 : 12/6/2021 1:17 pm : link
In comment 15483949 Thunderstruck27 said:
Quote:
In comment 15483934 GiantsFan84 said:


Quote:


the OL stinks, i think we all agree on that but the QB play on this team is horrific and i don't think people on this board understand that enough. the QB play does this offensive line zero favors

jones and glennon are not good presnap at identifying the coverage or mismatches which causes them to hold the ball too long and throw to the wrong guy. there were a handful of plays yesterday where it was very clear presnap where the ball needed to go and glennon never even looked that way. this happens with jones as well.



Amazing you can tell all this when the majority of the time the coach doesn't get our plays in until there is less than 6 seconds on the playclock. True insight.


it's very clear when watching the game. now if you want to blame the coaching along with the QB due to getting in calls late and the QB not having enough time when they get to the line, i guess can see an argument for that, though i don't think that is the case all the time.
I dont think it is the lines  
Batenhorst7 : 12/6/2021 1:19 pm : link
Its

Garrett
Barkley
JJ
No NFL caliber LBers
Grahams prevent D
Incredible # of injuries

Fix all those things were fixed, the Oline which yesterday was giving Glennon 6 seconds (against a supposed fierce pass rush) will be fine
Why’s the defense  
ajr2456 : 12/6/2021 1:29 pm : link
Still getting blamed? It’s the only reason we’ve even had chances in games
I would 100% spend both resources in the first round on first round OL  
Essex : 12/6/2021 1:31 pm : link
talent. Look, we are not going to fix are QB situation this off season given what everybody says about this class. Our edge rushers and LBs are not great, but we can get enough stops to win games if we produce on offense. So, as long as Jones will be back next year, and he will be, you might as well see if you can hyper fix the Oline and just confirm that he is not the answer. Reaching on QB could be the dumbest move ever. We still have one more year cost contained with JOnes. Use it wisely.
RE: I would 100% spend both resources in the first round on first round OL  
ajr2456 : 12/6/2021 1:35 pm : link
In comment 15483983 Essex said:
Quote:
talent. Look, we are not going to fix are QB situation this off season given what everybody says about this class. Our edge rushers and LBs are not great, but we can get enough stops to win games if we produce on offense. So, as long as Jones will be back next year, and he will be, you might as well see if you can hyper fix the Oline and just confirm that he is not the answer. Reaching on QB could be the dumbest move ever. We still have one more year cost contained with JOnes. Use it wisely.


Forcing two oline picks would be incredibly stupid.
RE: RE: I would 100% spend both resources in the first round on first round OL  
Essex : 12/6/2021 1:38 pm : link
In comment 15483989 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 15483983 Essex said:


Quote:


talent. Look, we are not going to fix are QB situation this off season given what everybody says about this class. Our edge rushers and LBs are not great, but we can get enough stops to win games if we produce on offense. So, as long as Jones will be back next year, and he will be, you might as well see if you can hyper fix the Oline and just confirm that he is not the answer. Reaching on QB could be the dumbest move ever. We still have one more year cost contained with JOnes. Use it wisely.



Forcing two oline picks would be incredibly stupid.

Who is forcing anything. Are you telling me there are not four or five offensive line players in the draft with a first round grade. Just because we won't get Neal doesnt mean there isn't talent. What else are we going to draft. The idiocy of this team is not recognizing how important the offensive line is and not doing anything we can to get it. Right now, with Thomas on the LT, we could use two first round picks to get 3 of 5 guys on this line settled for a decade. No other position besides QB, provides that opportunity in the first round of the NFL draft.
RE: RE: RE: I would 100% spend both resources in the first round on first round OL  
ajr2456 : 12/6/2021 1:43 pm : link
In comment 15483999 Essex said:
Quote:
In comment 15483989 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 15483983 Essex said:


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talent. Look, we are not going to fix are QB situation this off season given what everybody says about this class. Our edge rushers and LBs are not great, but we can get enough stops to win games if we produce on offense. So, as long as Jones will be back next year, and he will be, you might as well see if you can hyper fix the Oline and just confirm that he is not the answer. Reaching on QB could be the dumbest move ever. We still have one more year cost contained with JOnes. Use it wisely.



Forcing two oline picks would be incredibly stupid.


Who is forcing anything. Are you telling me there are not four or five offensive line players in the draft with a first round grade. Just because we won't get Neal doesnt mean there isn't talent. What else are we going to draft. The idiocy of this team is not recognizing how important the offensive line is and not doing anything we can to get it. Right now, with Thomas on the LT, we could use two first round picks to get 3 of 5 guys on this line settled for a decade. No other position besides QB, provides that opportunity in the first round of the NFL draft.


You act like they’ve complete ignored the oline which is the furthest thing from the truth, they’ve just made bad choices.

What two olineman are you taking top 6 of one of Kyle Hamilton or Hutchinson? Every other team in the league finds starting olineman in the mid rounds but the Giants have to spend two top 6 picks two years after spending a top 4 pick on a LT? Incredibly stupid and poor asset allocation - which is why we’re in this mess to start.

Take the best players and plug your holes in the mid rounds. This team needs a lot of good football players. Cluster drafting and forcing oline picks is incredibly stupid.
For comparison sake  
Now Mike in MD : 12/6/2021 1:48 pm : link
look at the WFT. They were on e their 4th strong OC. They have one first round pick. They are starting a rookie at RT. The rest are relatively cheap veteran pickups. Yet, they are running the ball well and protecting Heinecke very well.

In other words, you can put together a pretty good offensive line without investing a bunch of first round picks and expensive FA pickups. But you have to scout both for college and FAs.
RE: For comparison sake  
ajr2456 : 12/6/2021 1:50 pm : link
In comment 15484015 Now Mike in MD said:
Quote:
look at the WFT. They were on e their 4th strong OC. They have one first round pick. They are starting a rookie at RT. The rest are relatively cheap veteran pickups. Yet, they are running the ball well and protecting Heinecke very well.

In other words, you can put together a pretty good offensive line without investing a bunch of first round picks and expensive FA pickups. But you have to scout both for college and FAs.


Right, if the next GM is good at his job we won’t need to spend two top 6 picks on olineman.
Yes it is the OL, but  
Beer Man : 12/6/2021 1:54 pm : link
it is also the pass rush. Both were issues when DG took over, and both continue to be issues and have kept this team from advancing.
RE: RE: For comparison sake  
Now Mike in MD : 12/6/2021 1:54 pm : link
In comment 15484018 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 15484015 Now Mike in MD said:


Quote:


look at the WFT. They were on e their 4th strong OC. They have one first round pick. They are starting a rookie at RT. The rest are relatively cheap veteran pickups. Yet, they are running the ball well and protecting Heinecke very well.

In other words, you can put together a pretty good offensive line without investing a bunch of first round picks and expensive FA pickups. But you have to scout both for college and FAs.



Right, if the next GM is good at his job we won’t need to spend two top 6 picks on olineman.


The truly "impressive" thing is the complete failure to scout OL at any level. Terrible at college scouting and pro scouting. Draft picks bad; FA picks possibly worse. It's stunning
RE: RE: RE: For comparison sake  
ajr2456 : 12/6/2021 1:55 pm : link
In comment 15484026 Now Mike in MD said:
Quote:
In comment 15484018 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 15484015 Now Mike in MD said:


Quote:


look at the WFT. They were on e their 4th strong OC. They have one first round pick. They are starting a rookie at RT. The rest are relatively cheap veteran pickups. Yet, they are running the ball well and protecting Heinecke very well.

In other words, you can put together a pretty good offensive line without investing a bunch of first round picks and expensive FA pickups. But you have to scout both for college and FAs.



Right, if the next GM is good at his job we won’t need to spend two top 6 picks on olineman.



The truly "impressive" thing is the complete failure to scout OL at any level. Terrible at college scouting and pro scouting. Draft picks bad; FA picks possibly worse. It's stunning


They’ve poured actually a reasonable amount of assets into the line. They’ve just all failed
RE: RE: RE: RE: I would 100% spend both resources in the first round on first round OL  
Essex : 12/6/2021 1:58 pm : link
In comment 15484004 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 15483999 Essex said:


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In comment 15483989 ajr2456 said:


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In comment 15483983 Essex said:


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talent. Look, we are not going to fix are QB situation this off season given what everybody says about this class. Our edge rushers and LBs are not great, but we can get enough stops to win games if we produce on offense. So, as long as Jones will be back next year, and he will be, you might as well see if you can hyper fix the Oline and just confirm that he is not the answer. Reaching on QB could be the dumbest move ever. We still have one more year cost contained with JOnes. Use it wisely.



Forcing two oline picks would be incredibly stupid.


Who is forcing anything. Are you telling me there are not four or five offensive line players in the draft with a first round grade. Just because we won't get Neal doesnt mean there isn't talent. What else are we going to draft. The idiocy of this team is not recognizing how important the offensive line is and not doing anything we can to get it. Right now, with Thomas on the LT, we could use two first round picks to get 3 of 5 guys on this line settled for a decade. No other position besides QB, provides that opportunity in the first round of the NFL draft.



You act like they’ve complete ignored the oline which is the furthest thing from the truth, they’ve just made bad choices.

What two olineman are you taking top 6 of one of Kyle Hamilton or Hutchinson? Every other team in the league finds starting olineman in the mid rounds but the Giants have to spend two top 6 picks two years after spending a top 4 pick on a LT? Incredibly stupid and poor asset allocation - which is why we’re in this mess to start.

Take the best players and plug your holes in the mid rounds. This team needs a lot of good football players. Cluster drafting and forcing oline picks is incredibly stupid.

Ok, whatever you say. But, since 2015, when we drafted Flowers, we have had like 8 first round picks and the Oline has gotten one of those picks although the Oline has been a continual source of problems throughout that time period. We have instead blown our resources on Tight ends, Running backs, Wide Receivers, etc. None of whom we can use without fixing the offensive line. This is not hard and the best player available is always been and always will be a stupid concept. We need the car to start running and it won't without an engine. That engine is our OL, fix it--you have two picks find the right guys
RE: RE: RE: RE: For comparison sake  
Now Mike in MD : 12/6/2021 1:58 pm : link
In comment 15484029 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 15484026 Now Mike in MD said:


Quote:


In comment 15484018 ajr2456 said:


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In comment 15484015 Now Mike in MD said:


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look at the WFT. They were on e their 4th strong OC. They have one first round pick. They are starting a rookie at RT. The rest are relatively cheap veteran pickups. Yet, they are running the ball well and protecting Heinecke very well.

In other words, you can put together a pretty good offensive line without investing a bunch of first round picks and expensive FA pickups. But you have to scout both for college and FAs.



Right, if the next GM is good at his job we won’t need to spend two top 6 picks on olineman.



The truly "impressive" thing is the complete failure to scout OL at any level. Terrible at college scouting and pro scouting. Draft picks bad; FA picks possibly worse. It's stunning



They’ve poured actually a reasonable amount of assets into the line. They’ve just all failed


100 percent. It is not for lack of trying. The entire organization has a huge blind spot in being able to scout for the OL. Top to bottom. And it's been a problem since before DG came pn board. It's bizarre. Honestly, in 8 years I think we've hit on two draftees and FA pickups -- Thomas and Gates. I can't think of anyone else who has been an above average pickup. That's a stunning run of ineptitude
As exciting a player as Toney is  
allstarjim : 12/6/2021 1:59 pm : link
He seems like a luxury pick. I think DG still felt confidence in Peart, and I'd say rightfully so with what he did in stretches as a rookie. But here we are. The OL didn't look like quite the disaster it is going into the season bc you love Gates and Lemieux looked at least like a promising project, and the aforementioned Peart.

It's clear to me you have to see what you have with Peart down the stretch goimg into this offseason, but you still need to address 4 positions on that line this offseason.

They might consider bringing back Hernandez for a short-term, team-friendly deal, I know, hot take, but he's the least bad of the other current starters (other than Thomas).

Either way, this has been a failure of DG, and a massive one, only superceded by the fact that he picked the wrong guy at QB. And nothing will matter until you solve both of those issues.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: For comparison sake  
Essex : 12/6/2021 2:02 pm : link
In comment 15484036 Now Mike in MD said:
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In comment 15484029 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 15484026 Now Mike in MD said:


Quote:


In comment 15484018 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 15484015 Now Mike in MD said:


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look at the WFT. They were on e their 4th strong OC. They have one first round pick. They are starting a rookie at RT. The rest are relatively cheap veteran pickups. Yet, they are running the ball well and protecting Heinecke very well.

In other words, you can put together a pretty good offensive line without investing a bunch of first round picks and expensive FA pickups. But you have to scout both for college and FAs.



Right, if the next GM is good at his job we won’t need to spend two top 6 picks on olineman.



The truly "impressive" thing is the complete failure to scout OL at any level. Terrible at college scouting and pro scouting. Draft picks bad; FA picks possibly worse. It's stunning



They’ve poured actually a reasonable amount of assets into the line. They’ve just all failed



100 percent. It is not for lack of trying. The entire organization has a huge blind spot in being able to scout for the OL. Top to bottom. And it's been a problem since before DG came pn board. It's bizarre. Honestly, in 8 years I think we've hit on two draftees and FA pickups -- Thomas and Gates. I can't think of anyone else who has been an above average pickup. That's a stunning run of ineptitude

Really? Because Nelson on this team instead of Barkley would have greatly helped this team. Slater instead of Toney would have helped this team. We have not used premium resources for our biggest problem and the problem that makes our car, or any car in this league for that matter, move. Oh because we took Will Hernandez in the second round instead of Nelson in the first we used our resources. Come on, people cannot be this foolish to think we have used enough resouces on this continual problem when we have drafted 8 times in the fist round since Flowers and used one on an OL.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I would 100% spend both resources in the first round on first round OL  
ajr2456 : 12/6/2021 2:02 pm : link
In comment 15484035 Essex said:
Quote:


Ok, whatever you say. But, since 2015, when we drafted Flowers, we have had like 8 first round picks and the Oline has gotten one of those picks although the Oline has been a continual source of problems throughout that time period. We have instead blown our resources on Tight ends, Running backs, Wide Receivers, etc. None of whom we can use without fixing the offensive line. This is not hard and the best player available is always been and always will be a stupid concept. We need the car to start running and it won't without an engine. That engine is our OL, fix it--you have two picks find the right guys


How in the world is taking the best players a stupid concept, especially when Hutchinson or Hamilton would fill a need?

Going to just ignore that they’ve used three top 3 round picks on lineman the past 3 years? Plus the countless money spent?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I would 100% spend both resources in the first round on first round OL  
Essex : 12/6/2021 2:06 pm : link
In comment 15484041 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 15484035 Essex said:


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Ok, whatever you say. But, since 2015, when we drafted Flowers, we have had like 8 first round picks and the Oline has gotten one of those picks although the Oline has been a continual source of problems throughout that time period. We have instead blown our resources on Tight ends, Running backs, Wide Receivers, etc. None of whom we can use without fixing the offensive line. This is not hard and the best player available is always been and always will be a stupid concept. We need the car to start running and it won't without an engine. That engine is our OL, fix it--you have two picks find the right guys



How in the world is taking the best players a stupid concept, especially when Hutchinson or Hamilton would fill a need?

Going to just ignore that they’ve used three top 3 round picks on lineman the past 3 years? Plus the countless money spent?

The best player available is a stupid concept. It implies that you have identified that player, which as anyone with a brain who has followed the draft knows is not true. You might as well try to identify a player of need because the chance of being successful because you think he is the best player is just absurd and arrogant. If anything, the draft should humble these GMs in how much they don't know. Instead, they double down on crap like I have identified the best player, he is no in a position of need, so let me waste a crapshoot pick in an area I don't need.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I would 100% spend both resources in the first round on first round OL  
ajr2456 : 12/6/2021 2:15 pm : link
In comment 15484047 Essex said:
Quote:
In comment 15484041 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 15484035 Essex said:


Quote:




Ok, whatever you say. But, since 2015, when we drafted Flowers, we have had like 8 first round picks and the Oline has gotten one of those picks although the Oline has been a continual source of problems throughout that time period. We have instead blown our resources on Tight ends, Running backs, Wide Receivers, etc. None of whom we can use without fixing the offensive line. This is not hard and the best player available is always been and always will be a stupid concept. We need the car to start running and it won't without an engine. That engine is our OL, fix it--you have two picks find the right guys



How in the world is taking the best players a stupid concept, especially when Hutchinson or Hamilton would fill a need?

Going to just ignore that they’ve used three top 3 round picks on lineman the past 3 years? Plus the countless money spent?


The best player available is a stupid concept. It implies that you have identified that player, which as anyone with a brain who has followed the draft knows is not true. You might as well try to identify a player of need because the chance of being successful because you think he is the best player is just absurd and arrogant. If anything, the draft should humble these GMs in how much they don't know. Instead, they double down on crap like I have identified the best player, he is no in a position of need, so let me waste a crapshoot pick in an area I don't need.


What? So because drafting isn’t a perfect art we should just draft for need, which as we’ve seen also isn’t a perfect art and is hard as fuck.

Hutchinson and Hamilton fit needs and are you two of the best players in the draft. Why would we take an interior lineman over either of them, assuming we took a tackle with one of the picks?

Your logic is backwards.
Of course they shouldn't force OL picks, just like they shouldn't  
Jimmy Googs : 12/6/2021 2:18 pm : link
force any other pick on a player or another position. However, the OL has to get stabilized at some point and it can't all easily come from free agency. So that leaves the draft.

They don't have force picks but they can navigate around and make deals to areas where OL investment makes sense. They have a ton of picks next year and plenty of flexibility to do it. So do it...
Another problem facing the Giants  
JonC : 12/6/2021 2:21 pm : link
is because this rebuild is failing (or sputtering if you're sensitive) is the defense is aging, and it's also not a complete unit in the grand scheme of things.

So if you're pumping in top 10 picks to the OL while perhaps better players are available on defense, for example, you're doing what the Giants have been doing. No thanks.
RE: Another problem facing the Giants  
ajr2456 : 12/6/2021 2:26 pm : link
In comment 15484070 JonC said:
Quote:
is because this rebuild is failing (or sputtering if you're sensitive) is the defense is aging, and it's also not a complete unit in the grand scheme of things.

So if you're pumping in top 10 picks to the OL while perhaps better players are available on defense, for example, you're doing what the Giants have been doing. No thanks.


Right. Let’s say hypothetically we get Neal at 5 and he’s what he’s cracked up to be, we’d have bookend tackles. Any good GM should be able to fill the last three spots without pouring in another top 10 pick. We can get a pro bowl caliber guard in round 2 and 3.

If the two best players on the board when you pick are OL then by all means take them, but don’t take them just because you need them.
The most  
mittenedman : 12/6/2021 2:27 pm : link
damning thing is - they've regressed since last year.

Thomas
Lemieux
Gates
Zeitler
Fleming

That OLine - flawed as it was - was significantly better than this one.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: For comparison sake  
Now Mike in MD : 12/6/2021 2:34 pm : link
In comment 15484039 Essex said:
Quote:
In comment 15484036 Now Mike in MD said:


Quote:


In comment 15484029 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 15484026 Now Mike in MD said:


Quote:


In comment 15484018 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 15484015 Now Mike in MD said:


Quote:


look at the WFT. They were on e their 4th strong OC. They have one first round pick. They are starting a rookie at RT. The rest are relatively cheap veteran pickups. Yet, they are running the ball well and protecting Heinecke very well.

In other words, you can put together a pretty good offensive line without investing a bunch of first round picks and expensive FA pickups. But you have to scout both for college and FAs.



Right, if the next GM is good at his job we won’t need to spend two top 6 picks on olineman.



The truly "impressive" thing is the complete failure to scout OL at any level. Terrible at college scouting and pro scouting. Draft picks bad; FA picks possibly worse. It's stunning



They’ve poured actually a reasonable amount of assets into the line. They’ve just all failed



100 percent. It is not for lack of trying. The entire organization has a huge blind spot in being able to scout for the OL. Top to bottom. And it's been a problem since before DG came pn board. It's bizarre. Honestly, in 8 years I think we've hit on two draftees and FA pickups -- Thomas and Gates. I can't think of anyone else who has been an above average pickup. That's a stunning run of ineptitude


Really? Because Nelson on this team instead of Barkley would have greatly helped this team. Slater instead of Toney would have helped this team. We have not used premium resources for our biggest problem and the problem that makes our car, or any car in this league for that matter, move. Oh because we took Will Hernandez in the second round instead of Nelson in the first we used our resources. Come on, people cannot be this foolish to think we have used enough resouces on this continual problem when we have drafted 8 times in the fist round since Flowers and used one on an OL.


The point is that you can build an OL without investing a bunch of No. 1 picks. But you have to be able to identify talent. In that, we have completely failed
Saying  
ajr2456 : 12/6/2021 2:41 pm : link
“Look the Giants took Barkley over Nelson, taking BPA is stupid” is not the take you think it is.

Taking a RB #2 is not the same as taking a potential game changing pass rusher. At least use some certificates thinking.
RE: Saying  
ajr2456 : 12/6/2021 2:41 pm : link
In comment 15484099 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
“Look the Giants took Barkley over Nelson, taking BPA is stupid” is not the take you think it is.

Taking a RB #2 is not the same as taking a potential game changing pass rusher. At least use some certificates thinking.


*critical thinking
RE: Saying  
Essex : 12/6/2021 2:48 pm : link
In comment 15484099 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
“Look the Giants took Barkley over Nelson, taking BPA is stupid” is not the take you think it is.

Taking a RB #2 is not the same as taking a potential game changing pass rusher. At least use some certificates thinking.

It certainly is the taken when you want those BPA at WR or RB to perform well. Ok and if we would have gotten that game changing pass rusher, which was a need in 2018, I might be more forgiving. Also, again, because I want to settle this OL thing once and for all, doesn't mean ER isn't a need an if its there, I would not fault the Giants for picking one. But, don't sign me up for taking a BPA when we have real needs and will pick twice in the top 10.
RE: I dont think it is the lines  
Ron Johnson : 12/6/2021 4:13 pm : link
In comment 15483964 Batenhorst7 said:
Quote:
Its

Garrett
Barkley
JJ
No NFL caliber LBers
Grahams prevent D
Incredible # of injuries

Fix all those things were fixed, the Oline which yesterday was giving Glennon 6 seconds (against a supposed fierce pass rush) will be fine


So basically everything but the line? wow
Agreed with OP  
Johnny5 : 12/6/2021 4:34 pm : link
I still fully believe with a decent OL and even just one pass rusher we are right in the mix now in the NFC.
I’m sick of hearing about  
Dave on the UWS : 12/6/2021 4:54 pm : link
the OL. A significant number of other teams get serviceable play from whatever they have. And they scheme and execute to make a half decent offense. I put it on coaching. And the root cause, the people who hire the coach- the owners. Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dumb.
If Judge survives this year...  
bw in dc : 12/6/2021 5:19 pm : link
and gets a stay of execution, he would be wise to lure Dante Scarnecchia out of retirement - with a huge 2-year deal - and let the OL wizard fix this endless problem. Because if there is anyone on this planet who can fix this, it's Scarnecchia.

That guy deserves to be in Canton with this ability to build and develop OLs.
not gonna lie  
Leg of Theismann : 12/6/2021 5:53 pm : link
I kinda feel bad for Judge-- granted, he's absolutely not off the hook for his own problems, BUT-- Gettleman should've been canned along with Shurmur. Judge was doomed from the start with DG as the GM. Let's face it. There was nothing Gettleman had done to that point to be given another 2 full years. For the first year Judge obviously had no choice but to work with Gettleman. He made the best he could out of it. He was a 1st time NFL HC who had gone from ST coordinator to

For his 2nd year, Mara asked Judge: "Hey, whatddya think of Gettleman?" What is Judge going to say? He's still fairly new to the organization and DG is a generally well liked guy personally with everyone in the building. If Judge were a 20 year HC vet who had won a super bowl at some point in his HC career, maybe he would've been more likely to have the ego to say "I can't work with that bastard, get him out of here." But Of course Judge, a very positive guy, doesn't want to step on any toes so he says "yeah sure I can work with him for another year."

Here's the thing: Mara should not have even ASKED Judge what he thought of DG!! Mara is the guy who's been around for years making these big high level decision, it's HIS job to put on the big boy pants and say "we're 3 years into Gettleman's 'rebuild' and we're still at square fucking 1, and all the guy does is patronize the media and hence get us even worse press-- I'm getting rid of this guy." The fact it was put in Judge's hands to make the decision was a disaster from the get-go.

But hey-- Mara failing to know how to effectively run a football organization is par for the course. After all-- he hired Judge and seemed to "run through a brick wall" for the guy, but then what happened? He said " OK yeah but we're keeping our crappy GM who you have to work with AND I'm forcing you to make Garrett the OC even though I have no idea what I'm talking about when it comes to football and Garrett's system doesn't even fit Jones's skill set. But he's a great guy and his values represent Big Blue therefore you better grow to like him."

I would've liked to see how Judge could've done with literally ANY GM besides Gettleman and his choice of an OC. But it's too late now and honestly it's not like I have any real attachment to Judge so if we're getting a new GM we might as well clean house. All I know is we need to go a completely new direction with GM (I don't even want a guy who has ANY Giants connections because all of our connections worth a damn are way too old to know how to build a team in this day and age in the NFL) -- also Mara needs to let go of the reins ENTIRELY in terms of ALL football operations once he does hire the new GM. All he has to do is hopefully get the GM right, and in that case all I ask is that he thinks outside the box and goes with a new generation guy with solid established credentials at other winning organizations.

So-- Judge, being a first time HC and a very positive person, had to
ST coordinator to NFL HC**  
Leg of Theismann : 12/6/2021 5:54 pm : link
sorry not sure why those last 2 words got deleted.
lol jesus sory  
Leg of Theismann : 12/6/2021 5:57 pm : link
ignore the last line, I copy/pasted that up and forgot to delete.
sorry*  
Leg of Theismann : 12/6/2021 5:57 pm : link
fuck lol
Patriots OL  
Khs1982 : 12/6/2021 10:56 pm : link
In comment 15483903 edavisiii said:
Quote:
But, in the beginning of Shurmurs reign the OL was must worse. Greco, Spencer Pulley, Eric Flowers etc was terrible. I remember Brian Baldinger showing a clip where all 3 interior lineman were face down in the mud and he asked ¨Ḧow is this Eli Manning´s fault?¨

But, are we significantly better? NO
Some of it is bad luck, some bad decisions by the front office.
Pats game tonight against buffalo their OL has been dominant. I believe only 2 pass attempts in 3 quarters against a very good team. They are leading! You win the games between the tackles.
RE: 2 Year Stabilize Plan  
xtian : 12/7/2021 10:33 am : link
In comment 15483911 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
- Keep Thomas and Peart as Tackles
- Keep Gates as Center
- Keep Lemieux, Bredeson and Skura (maybe) as Guards
- Get rid of everybody else
- Do not presume Gates & Lemieux are de facto starters

2022:
- Sign moderately priced Right Guard in Free Agency to start at one spot. Let other 3 Guards above battle it out as to who starts at Left Guard and other two guys become reserves.
- Draft a Tackle and a Center on Day 1 & 2. Peart and rookie battle it out for starting Right Tackle job, loser becomes reserve Tackle. Same with Gates and rookie Center.

2023:
- Upgrade Left Guard spot with Day 2 pick.
- Draft another Tackle for roster with a Day 3 pick.
- If Gates/Lemieux start breaking down from injuries then need to discard/replace during this Free Agency period.

Review and let me know of any edits, and then will forward onto Front Office...


pretty straight forward, isn't Jimmy? just got to hit on the draft picks. uh-oh, houston [east rutherford], we have a problem.
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