There's a LOT of negativity on this board right now, and rightfully so. People are angry at a lot of people within the Giants organization from ownership, to the GM, to the coaches and players. But, to me, we have the same overarching problem today that we've had for the past 5 years and that's a severe lack of talent of poor performance from our offensive line.
Our defense started a bit slow early in the year but has been very good for most of the season and has kept us in games that could have easily turned into blowouts. But our offense continues to be unable to score consistently or when needed. And while there are legitimate questions about the QB, the RB, and even the WR's, the truth is that it's been virtually impossible to even evaluate any of them due to the absolutely horrendous play of our oline. On running plays, there is legitimately no holes to run through let alone any sort of push up front. And when we drop back to pass, the QB's are forced to either throw quickly to their first read or take a chance at getting destroyed.
And that leads us back to the one person responsible for the roster, the General Manager. From his introductory press conference, he said he was going to focus on and fix the line.
| “We’ve got to fix the o-line, let’s be honest. Let’s not kid each other. I believe in the ‘hog mollies. We’ve had some great groups here, had great groups everywhere I’ve been, and we’re going to get back to that. They do allow you to compete.” |
But unfortunately, 4 years into his tenure, he has completely failed to improve the oline at all. In fact, it could be argued that it's worse today than it was when he first got here.
The fact is, unless we can figure out a way to fix this oline, it will be impossible for this team to have any success. And more frustratingly, it will be impossible to truly evaluate the roster. We need to move on from Gettleman after the season and find someone who can finally get this thing fixed. And if that new GM can work with Judge then so be it but you do NOT force a potentially lame duck coach on a new general manager hire (which will also limit the pool of candidates). We MUST get this next hire right or we'll be having this same conversation 4 years from now.
Trading back would be more deserving of applause if they didn't actually need players.
In the long run you are right to be eyeballing QBs, but unless the line is fixed no QB is going to help. There needs to be a starting point, a focal point - the oline. Choosing a "modern NFL" QB may help, I just don't see it without the time to throw the ball or opening a hole to run through.
If your TE and your RB can help out with the blocking, that's a big plus. If the RB can stay in to pick up blitzers, and if not tied up then slide out into the flat.
We need to quite bitching about where Jones and Barkley were drafted. They will be paid what they are worth in the coming years by the Giants or someone else. You do not get rid of a player based on whether or not you think they lived up to their draft position.
As of now, the Giants have 20 players on IR (most in the league). This accounts for 21.68% of their cap 2nd only to the Lions who are at 21.99% of their cap on IR.
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/injured-reserve/
That's just the players on IR. Golladay has played 8 games. Slayton & Barkley also 8 games. Toney & Engram 9 games. Shepard 5 games. We're now likely going on to our 3rd QB. Were we spoiled with at least knowing that Eli would be starting the game every Sunday?
Is there any offensive skill player that has not missed time this year? Nobody I can think of. I'm honestly asking?
Just take a look at the list from ESPN as of today. (Warning, it's a long list)
https://www.espn.com/nfl/team/injuries/_/name/nyg
My personal opinion. Don't even think about the QB position until there is an OL to protect that person. At this point I don't care if it's Jones or whoever. Just don't even think about the position until we have an above average OL and OMFG healthy players to fill the positions. Just use a game manager until then whoever it shall be. Might as well be a cost controlled Jones next year at the moment.
A QBs best friend is an above average OL with an above average rush game. A defense's best friend is their own offense having a good rush game. It takes time off the clock and let's them rest. This has not changed.
I'm a best player available guy for the draft but I'm hoping there are two great OTs there for both our picks on Day 01. Yes I'm saying if there are 2 of them, grab them both. If the loser doesn't want to play OG they can ride the bench until they change their mind. I'm also saying this while thinking the best pass rushers will be off the board before our picks. I'm still a best player available kind of guy but I can at least hope two high end OTs fall to our picks.
Stay the hell away from ANY players with a history of injuries.
- DG hired. Gonna find Hog Mollies to fix this line.
- Nate Solder, Patrick Omameh signed, Hernandez drafted. Jamon Brown signed mid season. We opt to go with undrafted Pio (Don't sleep on Pio) and Spencer Pulley at Center.
-2018: Flowers/Wheeler-Jamon Brown-Halapio/Pulley-Hernandez-Solder= Bad
-Next season we let Jamon Brown walk after he seemed serviceable. We trade for Kevin Zeitler. We let Flowers go without trying him at guard. I don't think we drafted anyone with any premium picks. We sign aging Mike Remmers, shortly before the season if memories serves correctly.
-2019: Remmers-Zeitler-Halapio-Hernandez-Solder= Bad
-Next season COVID hits, and Solder opts out. We draft Andrew Thomas, Matt Peart and Shane Lemieux. We switch UDFA Guard Nick Gates to Center. Incredibly, that works. We sign Cam Fleming.
-2020: Fleming/Peart-Zeitler-Gates-Hernandez/Lemieux-Thomas= Less Bad to Mediocre
-This year we cut Zeitler who was likely our most consistent lineman, to make room for guys like Golladay. We do not use any draft picks on O-line. DG notes how they like their line more than we do, or something of the sort. Hernandez flopped to the right side Lemieux hurt in camp. Solder returns and beats out Peart. Billy Price, Matt Skura and Ben Bredeson all acquired DAYS BEFORE THE SEASON BEGINS. Thomas starts the year hampered by injury. Nick Gates hurt the second game.
-2021: Solder-Hernandez-Price-Bredeson/Skura-Thomas= DREADFUL
Incredible ride.
Better playcalling would make the line look better.
Better QB play would make the line look better.
Just trying to fix the oline with bad playcalling and mediocre QB play is a tough fix.
Those two opened up big holes last year in the run game and were steadily improving. Both are young players only entering their 2nd year at their respective position. Gates was heading towards a breakout season imo.
Gettleman, AND MOST TEAMS, cannot lose 2 starting OL and think things will go smoothly. The real mistake imo is relying on Peart who appears to not be ready or trusted for whatever reason. I dont think you could have relied on Solder starting this year, after being off a year, and declining the last few years.
This season was over when we lost our starting OG and OC and Peart failed to beat out Soldier in camp.
They need to use their top 2-3 picks next year and get studs not duds.
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is the main eyesore, but I wouldn't let it distract me from scouting the QBs ...
In the long run you are right to be eyeballing QBs, but unless the line is fixed no QB is going to help. There needs to be a starting point, a focal point - the oline. Choosing a "modern NFL" QB may help, I just don't see it without the time to throw the ball or opening a hole to run through.
My point is you can't just focus on positions out of need, you've got to draft the best guys when they present themselves, regardless of position. You can't say we're gonna build a killer OL and then plug in the QB, because you have no way of knowing if the draft will cooperate, and two it's painfully short-sighted, imv.
Giants picking reactively for need is how we got Jones. Trying to draft weapons for him instead of OL, we skip over some excellent OTs for Toney, rinse and repeat.
Better playcalling would make the line look better.
Better QB play would make the line look better.
Just trying to fix the oline with bad playcalling and mediocre QB play is a tough fix.
Wouldn't better line play make the RB's look better? Which would lead to the QB looking better?
It's just unbelievable to me that most of the decisions they've made outside of Gates and Thomas, have been the wrong ones. It seems impossible.
As of now, the Giants have 20 players on IR (most in the league). This accounts for 21.68% of their cap 2nd only to the Lions who are at 21.99% of their cap on IR.
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/injured-reserve/
That's just the players on IR. Golladay has played 8 games. Slayton & Barkley also 8 games. Toney & Engram 9 games. Shepard 5 games. We're now likely going on to our 3rd QB. Were we spoiled with at least knowing that Eli would be starting the game every Sunday?
Is there any offensive skill player that has not missed time this year? Nobody I can think of. I'm honestly asking?
Just take a look at the list from ESPN as of today. (Warning, it's a long list)
https://www.espn.com/nfl/team/injuries/_/name/nyg
My personal opinion. Don't even think about the QB position until there is an OL to protect that person. At this point I don't care if it's Jones or whoever. Just don't even think about the position until we have an above average OL and OMFG healthy players to fill the positions. Just use a game manager until then whoever it shall be. Might as well be a cost controlled Jones next year at the moment.
A QBs best friend is an above average OL with an above average rush game. A defense's best friend is their own offense having a good rush game. It takes time off the clock and let's them rest. This has not changed.
I'm a best player available guy for the draft but I'm hoping there are two great OTs there for both our picks on Day 01. Yes I'm saying if there are 2 of them, grab them both. If the loser doesn't want to play OG they can ride the bench until they change their mind. I'm also saying this while thinking the best pass rushers will be off the board before our picks. I'm still a best player available kind of guy but I can at least hope two high end OTs fall to our picks.
Stay the hell away from ANY players with a history of injuries.
I’ll say this again. You damn sure can judge coaches on what they get from bench players. Look at Washington. Their BACK UP center went down in game against Seattle. The third or fourth string guy came in and did damn well for fourth string. Washington continues to get better even after losing their two best ERs. Coaching can absolutely be judged when there are injuries.
Player groups are harder to judge. But coaching is absolutely reflected through bench players. If coaches always have to have top notch players then why don’t all coaches win when their team is loaded with talent? Look at the drop off of Dallas when they went from Jimmy to Barry. Barry road the talent for a year and then fell off.
But, are we significantly better? NO
Some of it is bad luck, some bad decisions by the front office.
- Keep Gates as Center
- Keep Lemieux, Bredeson and Skura (maybe) as Guards
- Get rid of everybody else
- Do not presume Gates & Lemieux are de facto starters
2022:
- Sign moderately priced Right Guard in Free Agency to start at one spot. Let other 3 Guards above battle it out as to who starts at Left Guard and other two guys become reserves.
- Draft a Tackle and a Center on Day 1 & 2. Peart and rookie battle it out for starting Right Tackle job, loser becomes reserve Tackle. Same with Gates and rookie Center.
2023:
- Upgrade Left Guard spot with Day 2 pick.
- Draft another Tackle for roster with a Day 3 pick.
- If Gates/Lemieux start breaking down from injuries then need to discard/replace during this Free Agency period.
Review and let me know of any edits, and then will forward onto Front Office...
Likewise with Shane Lemiuex. They'd say it was hopeful, anyone outside the organization recognizes it as negligence.
the iowa kid is a top 8 prospect at center--- who cares that he is a center you draft him and check the box for 10yrs.
there are multiple other tackles that will be in that window--- miss st/bama/nc st to start.
if there is a stud LB (dont care if its edge or middle)- then sure take them.
point being drafting OL this year will not look like reaching.
and if they refuse to take interior because "its too high"- then shame on them
Think he would’ve been more pro than con in 2021
Gates a big loss. Definitely above average to good OC
Right side would’ve still stunk but at least 3/5ths of oline May have been semi good
Hog mollies. DG just shit the bed. 4 yrs. I would’ve kept drafting oline till I got it right. He should be fired just for that ( besides everything else)
I have really hated this bit of wisdom. If the pick works no one cares how high you drafted them when you're scoring points and your QB isn't on his back.
There are some positions that can be drafted too high, but that isn't one of them.
Player groups are harder to judge. But coaching is absolutely reflected through bench players. If coaches always have to have top notch players then why don’t all coaches win when their team is loaded with talent? Look at the drop off of Dallas when they went from Jimmy to Barry. Barry road the talent for a year and then fell off.
But they haven't been hit as hard overall as the Giants. We lost our starting OC, OG and then some. No consistent receiver to rely on. No RB that can overcome the bad OL. Defense has seen it's share of injuries as well. TEs can't stay healthy. Nobody on the OL can stay healthy. QBs can't stay healthy. WRs can't stay healthy. Right now it looks like WR 1, 2, and 3 will be out next week.
However, I honestly don't know the fix. I don't think it's all on Judge (a first time HC). Maybe DG because he grabs a player like Golladay with an injury history. Not sure.
Overcoming 1 or 2 positions with 3rd or 4th string players is one thing but it's like some weird injury virus is hiding in the Giants' locker room. It infects players with random injuries whenever they come into contact with it. Bring a priest in to bless the locker room or something.
jones and glennon are not good presnap at identifying the coverage or mismatches which causes them to hold the ball too long and throw to the wrong guy. there were a handful of plays yesterday where it was very clear presnap where the ball needed to go and glennon never even looked that way. this happens with jones as well.
All of the draft capital has to be used to build the lines on both sides of the ball.
And if the value isn't there when the Giants pick, they should trade down and acquire more picks.
Drafting a new QB without fixing the line is foolish.
Doing so will doom the career of any kid that has to play behind this mess.
If you rate a QB worthy of a top 5 pick you take him. Any new GM worth his salt should be able to find two quality olineman between rounds 2-4 and free agency if we passed on one round 1. Take the best players available.
jones and glennon are not good presnap at identifying the coverage or mismatches which causes them to hold the ball too long and throw to the wrong guy. there were a handful of plays yesterday where it was very clear presnap where the ball needed to go and glennon never even looked that way. this happens with jones as well.
Amazing you can tell all this when the majority of the time the coach doesn't get our plays in until there is less than 6 seconds on the playclock. True insight.
Those of you raised on our mid-80's o-lines are living in the past. You can count the decent o-lines in the NFL on one hand- maybe not even that. We can debate the causes: the better college athletes moving to more highly compensated positions, rules changes that affect run blocking, lack of practice time, blitzing from all sorts of places on the line, better athletes on the defensive side etc.
Lots of teams are struggling with o-lines, lots of running attacks are hit or miss and lots of qb's are running for their lives.
So, you need skill players who can improvise when things inevitably break down which they will on 75% of the plays. RB's who can spot the crease and break through or who can plow into the defense with minimal assistance, wr who know what to do when the play goes to shit and qb's who can buy time, see the field and make a play.
What we don't have is the skill players with improv abilities. Barkley was never a pile driver despite the Happy Valley snow job, and he has lost his burst. Booker is a bum. Jones? Nice kid but forget it. Way overdrafted- not elusive and doesn't have the arm to make a defense pay when the play breaks down and the only receiver open ran a 25 yard square out- should have been a second day choice. The receivers? Golladay can improvise if you look his way and throw it up there. Shepard has been around long enough but no defense cares if he catches it or not. Toney is shifty enough to create his own. The rest? forget it, they barely know their route trees.
It's no accident that if you look at the bottom 15 teams in scoring, outside of Seattle and Atlanta, they all have rookie qb's or qb's really no one would want.
So, stop whining about the o-line. We are in the same boat with most of the other teams. We drafted badly at the skill positions and are paying the price.
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the OL stinks, i think we all agree on that but the QB play on this team is horrific and i don't think people on this board understand that enough. the QB play does this offensive line zero favors
jones and glennon are not good presnap at identifying the coverage or mismatches which causes them to hold the ball too long and throw to the wrong guy. there were a handful of plays yesterday where it was very clear presnap where the ball needed to go and glennon never even looked that way. this happens with jones as well.
Amazing you can tell all this when the majority of the time the coach doesn't get our plays in until there is less than 6 seconds on the playclock. True insight.
it's very clear when watching the game. now if you want to blame the coaching along with the QB due to getting in calls late and the QB not having enough time when they get to the line, i guess can see an argument for that, though i don't think that is the case all the time.
Garrett
Barkley
JJ
No NFL caliber LBers
Grahams prevent D
Incredible # of injuries
Fix all those things were fixed, the Oline which yesterday was giving Glennon 6 seconds (against a supposed fierce pass rush) will be fine
Forcing two oline picks would be incredibly stupid.
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talent. Look, we are not going to fix are QB situation this off season given what everybody says about this class. Our edge rushers and LBs are not great, but we can get enough stops to win games if we produce on offense. So, as long as Jones will be back next year, and he will be, you might as well see if you can hyper fix the Oline and just confirm that he is not the answer. Reaching on QB could be the dumbest move ever. We still have one more year cost contained with JOnes. Use it wisely.
Forcing two oline picks would be incredibly stupid.
Who is forcing anything. Are you telling me there are not four or five offensive line players in the draft with a first round grade. Just because we won't get Neal doesnt mean there isn't talent. What else are we going to draft. The idiocy of this team is not recognizing how important the offensive line is and not doing anything we can to get it. Right now, with Thomas on the LT, we could use two first round picks to get 3 of 5 guys on this line settled for a decade. No other position besides QB, provides that opportunity in the first round of the NFL draft.
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In comment 15483983 Essex said:
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talent. Look, we are not going to fix are QB situation this off season given what everybody says about this class. Our edge rushers and LBs are not great, but we can get enough stops to win games if we produce on offense. So, as long as Jones will be back next year, and he will be, you might as well see if you can hyper fix the Oline and just confirm that he is not the answer. Reaching on QB could be the dumbest move ever. We still have one more year cost contained with JOnes. Use it wisely.
Forcing two oline picks would be incredibly stupid.
Who is forcing anything. Are you telling me there are not four or five offensive line players in the draft with a first round grade. Just because we won't get Neal doesnt mean there isn't talent. What else are we going to draft. The idiocy of this team is not recognizing how important the offensive line is and not doing anything we can to get it. Right now, with Thomas on the LT, we could use two first round picks to get 3 of 5 guys on this line settled for a decade. No other position besides QB, provides that opportunity in the first round of the NFL draft.
You act like they’ve complete ignored the oline which is the furthest thing from the truth, they’ve just made bad choices.
What two olineman are you taking top 6 of one of Kyle Hamilton or Hutchinson? Every other team in the league finds starting olineman in the mid rounds but the Giants have to spend two top 6 picks two years after spending a top 4 pick on a LT? Incredibly stupid and poor asset allocation - which is why we’re in this mess to start.
Take the best players and plug your holes in the mid rounds. This team needs a lot of good football players. Cluster drafting and forcing oline picks is incredibly stupid.
In other words, you can put together a pretty good offensive line without investing a bunch of first round picks and expensive FA pickups. But you have to scout both for college and FAs.