There's a LOT of negativity on this board right now, and rightfully so. People are angry at a lot of people within the Giants organization from ownership, to the GM, to the coaches and players. But, to me, we have the same overarching problem today that we've had for the past 5 years and that's a severe lack of talent of poor performance from our offensive line.
Our defense started a bit slow early in the year but has been very good for most of the season and has kept us in games that could have easily turned into blowouts. But our offense continues to be unable to score consistently or when needed. And while there are legitimate questions about the QB, the RB, and even the WR's, the truth is that it's been virtually impossible to even evaluate any of them due to the absolutely horrendous play of our oline. On running plays, there is legitimately no holes to run through let alone any sort of push up front. And when we drop back to pass, the QB's are forced to either throw quickly to their first read or take a chance at getting destroyed.
And that leads us back to the one person responsible for the roster, the General Manager. From his introductory press conference, he said he was going to focus on and fix the line.
| “We’ve got to fix the o-line, let’s be honest. Let’s not kid each other. I believe in the ‘hog mollies. We’ve had some great groups here, had great groups everywhere I’ve been, and we’re going to get back to that. They do allow you to compete.” |
But unfortunately, 4 years into his tenure, he has completely failed to improve the oline at all. In fact, it could be argued that it's worse today than it was when he first got here.
The fact is, unless we can figure out a way to fix this oline, it will be impossible for this team to have any success. And more frustratingly, it will be impossible to truly evaluate the roster. We need to move on from Gettleman after the season and find someone who can finally get this thing fixed. And if that new GM can work with Judge then so be it but you do NOT force a potentially lame duck coach on a new general manager hire (which will also limit the pool of candidates). We MUST get this next hire right or we'll be having this same conversation 4 years from now.
In other words, you can put together a pretty good offensive line without investing a bunch of first round picks and expensive FA pickups. But you have to scout both for college and FAs.
Right, if the next GM is good at his job we won’t need to spend two top 6 picks on olineman.
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look at the WFT. They were on e their 4th strong OC. They have one first round pick. They are starting a rookie at RT. The rest are relatively cheap veteran pickups. Yet, they are running the ball well and protecting Heinecke very well.
In other words, you can put together a pretty good offensive line without investing a bunch of first round picks and expensive FA pickups. But you have to scout both for college and FAs.
Right, if the next GM is good at his job we won’t need to spend two top 6 picks on olineman.
The truly "impressive" thing is the complete failure to scout OL at any level. Terrible at college scouting and pro scouting. Draft picks bad; FA picks possibly worse. It's stunning
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In comment 15484015 Now Mike in MD said:
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look at the WFT. They were on e their 4th strong OC. They have one first round pick. They are starting a rookie at RT. The rest are relatively cheap veteran pickups. Yet, they are running the ball well and protecting Heinecke very well.
In other words, you can put together a pretty good offensive line without investing a bunch of first round picks and expensive FA pickups. But you have to scout both for college and FAs.
Right, if the next GM is good at his job we won’t need to spend two top 6 picks on olineman.
The truly "impressive" thing is the complete failure to scout OL at any level. Terrible at college scouting and pro scouting. Draft picks bad; FA picks possibly worse. It's stunning
They’ve poured actually a reasonable amount of assets into the line. They’ve just all failed
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In comment 15483989 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 15483983 Essex said:
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talent. Look, we are not going to fix are QB situation this off season given what everybody says about this class. Our edge rushers and LBs are not great, but we can get enough stops to win games if we produce on offense. So, as long as Jones will be back next year, and he will be, you might as well see if you can hyper fix the Oline and just confirm that he is not the answer. Reaching on QB could be the dumbest move ever. We still have one more year cost contained with JOnes. Use it wisely.
Forcing two oline picks would be incredibly stupid.
Who is forcing anything. Are you telling me there are not four or five offensive line players in the draft with a first round grade. Just because we won't get Neal doesnt mean there isn't talent. What else are we going to draft. The idiocy of this team is not recognizing how important the offensive line is and not doing anything we can to get it. Right now, with Thomas on the LT, we could use two first round picks to get 3 of 5 guys on this line settled for a decade. No other position besides QB, provides that opportunity in the first round of the NFL draft.
You act like they’ve complete ignored the oline which is the furthest thing from the truth, they’ve just made bad choices.
What two olineman are you taking top 6 of one of Kyle Hamilton or Hutchinson? Every other team in the league finds starting olineman in the mid rounds but the Giants have to spend two top 6 picks two years after spending a top 4 pick on a LT? Incredibly stupid and poor asset allocation - which is why we’re in this mess to start.
Take the best players and plug your holes in the mid rounds. This team needs a lot of good football players. Cluster drafting and forcing oline picks is incredibly stupid.
Ok, whatever you say. But, since 2015, when we drafted Flowers, we have had like 8 first round picks and the Oline has gotten one of those picks although the Oline has been a continual source of problems throughout that time period. We have instead blown our resources on Tight ends, Running backs, Wide Receivers, etc. None of whom we can use without fixing the offensive line. This is not hard and the best player available is always been and always will be a stupid concept. We need the car to start running and it won't without an engine. That engine is our OL, fix it--you have two picks find the right guys
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In comment 15484018 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 15484015 Now Mike in MD said:
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look at the WFT. They were on e their 4th strong OC. They have one first round pick. They are starting a rookie at RT. The rest are relatively cheap veteran pickups. Yet, they are running the ball well and protecting Heinecke very well.
In other words, you can put together a pretty good offensive line without investing a bunch of first round picks and expensive FA pickups. But you have to scout both for college and FAs.
Right, if the next GM is good at his job we won’t need to spend two top 6 picks on olineman.
The truly "impressive" thing is the complete failure to scout OL at any level. Terrible at college scouting and pro scouting. Draft picks bad; FA picks possibly worse. It's stunning
They’ve poured actually a reasonable amount of assets into the line. They’ve just all failed
100 percent. It is not for lack of trying. The entire organization has a huge blind spot in being able to scout for the OL. Top to bottom. And it's been a problem since before DG came pn board. It's bizarre. Honestly, in 8 years I think we've hit on two draftees and FA pickups -- Thomas and Gates. I can't think of anyone else who has been an above average pickup. That's a stunning run of ineptitude
It's clear to me you have to see what you have with Peart down the stretch goimg into this offseason, but you still need to address 4 positions on that line this offseason.
They might consider bringing back Hernandez for a short-term, team-friendly deal, I know, hot take, but he's the least bad of the other current starters (other than Thomas).
Either way, this has been a failure of DG, and a massive one, only superceded by the fact that he picked the wrong guy at QB. And nothing will matter until you solve both of those issues.
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In comment 15484026 Now Mike in MD said:
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In comment 15484018 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 15484015 Now Mike in MD said:
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look at the WFT. They were on e their 4th strong OC. They have one first round pick. They are starting a rookie at RT. The rest are relatively cheap veteran pickups. Yet, they are running the ball well and protecting Heinecke very well.
In other words, you can put together a pretty good offensive line without investing a bunch of first round picks and expensive FA pickups. But you have to scout both for college and FAs.
Right, if the next GM is good at his job we won’t need to spend two top 6 picks on olineman.
The truly "impressive" thing is the complete failure to scout OL at any level. Terrible at college scouting and pro scouting. Draft picks bad; FA picks possibly worse. It's stunning
They’ve poured actually a reasonable amount of assets into the line. They’ve just all failed
100 percent. It is not for lack of trying. The entire organization has a huge blind spot in being able to scout for the OL. Top to bottom. And it's been a problem since before DG came pn board. It's bizarre. Honestly, in 8 years I think we've hit on two draftees and FA pickups -- Thomas and Gates. I can't think of anyone else who has been an above average pickup. That's a stunning run of ineptitude
Really? Because Nelson on this team instead of Barkley would have greatly helped this team. Slater instead of Toney would have helped this team. We have not used premium resources for our biggest problem and the problem that makes our car, or any car in this league for that matter, move. Oh because we took Will Hernandez in the second round instead of Nelson in the first we used our resources. Come on, people cannot be this foolish to think we have used enough resouces on this continual problem when we have drafted 8 times in the fist round since Flowers and used one on an OL.
Ok, whatever you say. But, since 2015, when we drafted Flowers, we have had like 8 first round picks and the Oline has gotten one of those picks although the Oline has been a continual source of problems throughout that time period. We have instead blown our resources on Tight ends, Running backs, Wide Receivers, etc. None of whom we can use without fixing the offensive line. This is not hard and the best player available is always been and always will be a stupid concept. We need the car to start running and it won't without an engine. That engine is our OL, fix it--you have two picks find the right guys
How in the world is taking the best players a stupid concept, especially when Hutchinson or Hamilton would fill a need?
Going to just ignore that they’ve used three top 3 round picks on lineman the past 3 years? Plus the countless money spent?
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Ok, whatever you say. But, since 2015, when we drafted Flowers, we have had like 8 first round picks and the Oline has gotten one of those picks although the Oline has been a continual source of problems throughout that time period. We have instead blown our resources on Tight ends, Running backs, Wide Receivers, etc. None of whom we can use without fixing the offensive line. This is not hard and the best player available is always been and always will be a stupid concept. We need the car to start running and it won't without an engine. That engine is our OL, fix it--you have two picks find the right guys
How in the world is taking the best players a stupid concept, especially when Hutchinson or Hamilton would fill a need?
Going to just ignore that they’ve used three top 3 round picks on lineman the past 3 years? Plus the countless money spent?
The best player available is a stupid concept. It implies that you have identified that player, which as anyone with a brain who has followed the draft knows is not true. You might as well try to identify a player of need because the chance of being successful because you think he is the best player is just absurd and arrogant. If anything, the draft should humble these GMs in how much they don't know. Instead, they double down on crap like I have identified the best player, he is no in a position of need, so let me waste a crapshoot pick in an area I don't need.
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In comment 15484035 Essex said:
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Ok, whatever you say. But, since 2015, when we drafted Flowers, we have had like 8 first round picks and the Oline has gotten one of those picks although the Oline has been a continual source of problems throughout that time period. We have instead blown our resources on Tight ends, Running backs, Wide Receivers, etc. None of whom we can use without fixing the offensive line. This is not hard and the best player available is always been and always will be a stupid concept. We need the car to start running and it won't without an engine. That engine is our OL, fix it--you have two picks find the right guys
How in the world is taking the best players a stupid concept, especially when Hutchinson or Hamilton would fill a need?
Going to just ignore that they’ve used three top 3 round picks on lineman the past 3 years? Plus the countless money spent?
The best player available is a stupid concept. It implies that you have identified that player, which as anyone with a brain who has followed the draft knows is not true. You might as well try to identify a player of need because the chance of being successful because you think he is the best player is just absurd and arrogant. If anything, the draft should humble these GMs in how much they don't know. Instead, they double down on crap like I have identified the best player, he is no in a position of need, so let me waste a crapshoot pick in an area I don't need.
What? So because drafting isn’t a perfect art we should just draft for need, which as we’ve seen also isn’t a perfect art and is hard as fuck.
Hutchinson and Hamilton fit needs and are you two of the best players in the draft. Why would we take an interior lineman over either of them, assuming we took a tackle with one of the picks?
Your logic is backwards.
They don't have force picks but they can navigate around and make deals to areas where OL investment makes sense. They have a ton of picks next year and plenty of flexibility to do it. So do it...
So if you're pumping in top 10 picks to the OL while perhaps better players are available on defense, for example, you're doing what the Giants have been doing. No thanks.
So if you're pumping in top 10 picks to the OL while perhaps better players are available on defense, for example, you're doing what the Giants have been doing. No thanks.
Right. Let’s say hypothetically we get Neal at 5 and he’s what he’s cracked up to be, we’d have bookend tackles. Any good GM should be able to fill the last three spots without pouring in another top 10 pick. We can get a pro bowl caliber guard in round 2 and 3.
If the two best players on the board when you pick are OL then by all means take them, but don’t take them just because you need them.
Thomas
Lemieux
Gates
Zeitler
Fleming
That OLine - flawed as it was - was significantly better than this one.
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In comment 15484029 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 15484026 Now Mike in MD said:
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In comment 15484018 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 15484015 Now Mike in MD said:
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look at the WFT. They were on e their 4th strong OC. They have one first round pick. They are starting a rookie at RT. The rest are relatively cheap veteran pickups. Yet, they are running the ball well and protecting Heinecke very well.
In other words, you can put together a pretty good offensive line without investing a bunch of first round picks and expensive FA pickups. But you have to scout both for college and FAs.
Right, if the next GM is good at his job we won’t need to spend two top 6 picks on olineman.
The truly "impressive" thing is the complete failure to scout OL at any level. Terrible at college scouting and pro scouting. Draft picks bad; FA picks possibly worse. It's stunning
They’ve poured actually a reasonable amount of assets into the line. They’ve just all failed
100 percent. It is not for lack of trying. The entire organization has a huge blind spot in being able to scout for the OL. Top to bottom. And it's been a problem since before DG came pn board. It's bizarre. Honestly, in 8 years I think we've hit on two draftees and FA pickups -- Thomas and Gates. I can't think of anyone else who has been an above average pickup. That's a stunning run of ineptitude
Really? Because Nelson on this team instead of Barkley would have greatly helped this team. Slater instead of Toney would have helped this team. We have not used premium resources for our biggest problem and the problem that makes our car, or any car in this league for that matter, move. Oh because we took Will Hernandez in the second round instead of Nelson in the first we used our resources. Come on, people cannot be this foolish to think we have used enough resouces on this continual problem when we have drafted 8 times in the fist round since Flowers and used one on an OL.
The point is that you can build an OL without investing a bunch of No. 1 picks. But you have to be able to identify talent. In that, we have completely failed
Taking a RB #2 is not the same as taking a potential game changing pass rusher. At least use some certificates thinking.
Taking a RB #2 is not the same as taking a potential game changing pass rusher. At least use some certificates thinking.
*critical thinking
Taking a RB #2 is not the same as taking a potential game changing pass rusher. At least use some certificates thinking.
It certainly is the taken when you want those BPA at WR or RB to perform well. Ok and if we would have gotten that game changing pass rusher, which was a need in 2018, I might be more forgiving. Also, again, because I want to settle this OL thing once and for all, doesn't mean ER isn't a need an if its there, I would not fault the Giants for picking one. But, don't sign me up for taking a BPA when we have real needs and will pick twice in the top 10.
Garrett
Barkley
JJ
No NFL caliber LBers
Grahams prevent D
Incredible # of injuries
Fix all those things were fixed, the Oline which yesterday was giving Glennon 6 seconds (against a supposed fierce pass rush) will be fine
So basically everything but the line? wow
That guy deserves to be in Canton with this ability to build and develop OLs.
For his 2nd year, Mara asked Judge: "Hey, whatddya think of Gettleman?" What is Judge going to say? He's still fairly new to the organization and DG is a generally well liked guy personally with everyone in the building. If Judge were a 20 year HC vet who had won a super bowl at some point in his HC career, maybe he would've been more likely to have the ego to say "I can't work with that bastard, get him out of here." But Of course Judge, a very positive guy, doesn't want to step on any toes so he says "yeah sure I can work with him for another year."
Here's the thing: Mara should not have even ASKED Judge what he thought of DG!! Mara is the guy who's been around for years making these big high level decision, it's HIS job to put on the big boy pants and say "we're 3 years into Gettleman's 'rebuild' and we're still at square fucking 1, and all the guy does is patronize the media and hence get us even worse press-- I'm getting rid of this guy." The fact it was put in Judge's hands to make the decision was a disaster from the get-go.
But hey-- Mara failing to know how to effectively run a football organization is par for the course. After all-- he hired Judge and seemed to "run through a brick wall" for the guy, but then what happened? He said " OK yeah but we're keeping our crappy GM who you have to work with AND I'm forcing you to make Garrett the OC even though I have no idea what I'm talking about when it comes to football and Garrett's system doesn't even fit Jones's skill set. But he's a great guy and his values represent Big Blue therefore you better grow to like him."
I would've liked to see how Judge could've done with literally ANY GM besides Gettleman and his choice of an OC. But it's too late now and honestly it's not like I have any real attachment to Judge so if we're getting a new GM we might as well clean house. All I know is we need to go a completely new direction with GM (I don't even want a guy who has ANY Giants connections because all of our connections worth a damn are way too old to know how to build a team in this day and age in the NFL) -- also Mara needs to let go of the reins ENTIRELY in terms of ALL football operations once he does hire the new GM. All he has to do is hopefully get the GM right, and in that case all I ask is that he thinks outside the box and goes with a new generation guy with solid established credentials at other winning organizations.
So-- Judge, being a first time HC and a very positive person, had to
But, are we significantly better? NO
Some of it is bad luck, some bad decisions by the front office.
- Keep Gates as Center
- Keep Lemieux, Bredeson and Skura (maybe) as Guards
- Get rid of everybody else
- Do not presume Gates & Lemieux are de facto starters
2022:
- Sign moderately priced Right Guard in Free Agency to start at one spot. Let other 3 Guards above battle it out as to who starts at Left Guard and other two guys become reserves.
- Draft a Tackle and a Center on Day 1 & 2. Peart and rookie battle it out for starting Right Tackle job, loser becomes reserve Tackle. Same with Gates and rookie Center.
2023:
- Upgrade Left Guard spot with Day 2 pick.
- Draft another Tackle for roster with a Day 3 pick.
- If Gates/Lemieux start breaking down from injuries then need to discard/replace during this Free Agency period.
Review and let me know of any edits, and then will forward onto Front Office...
pretty straight forward, isn't Jimmy? just got to hit on the draft picks. uh-oh, houston [east rutherford], we have a problem.