How can Mara promote from within?

There is a difference between being educated and being smart.

Basically everything he thinks is the right thing to do... he should do the opposite.

Imo, it’s no coincidence both Abrams and Pettit have had an increase in media visibility. Mara probably knows he can’t do this now though, barring a very strong finish. Mara appears to care very much about optics and that would be a PR nightmare.

Notice how he didn’t speak at Strahan’s ceremony? He knows.

....but the fool just might.

is I am too afraid what they will do next.

granted i watch barely an ESPN.. has there even been one segment on either network "roasting mara"?

i have been wondering this myself, though. it is clear to most fans that all the problems with the organization and all of the poor decision making over the last 5-8 years can be traced directly back to mara.. but, is he just blinded by self-delusion and hubris and entirely unaware of this? who knows

Ones with either GM or Asst GM experience at successful franchises.

Last time around the short list was a joke with only DG having the requisite qualifications. If DG had been competing against bona fide competition, he probably would not have been offered the Giants job.

That’s Accorsi’s misdeed, the short list, which pointed the finger at DG. So I’m waiting for news on the short list (which shouldn’t even have Abrams on it).

successful organizations.

that he realizes he needs to radically change his approach. But there is no guarantee. But depending who has his ear it's not hard to see him pinning this failure on Gettleman and injuries while completely overlooking his own culpability in bringing Gettleman here in the first place.

I feel like it's pretty clear that the best move is to can everyone involved and blow up the entire roster. A true rebuild, none of this "compete while rebuilding" nonsense, orchestrated by fresh eyes and ideas.

But I'd bet my next months salary that we get more half measures: some assistants go but Judge stays. Jones is retained because, he, it's REALLY his make or break year. Keep Barkley because its only been 18 months since the injury. And guess where we'll be next December? Miserable again but hey, we got hope! The new GM can pick his coach, and that's when we'll really get back on track!

Gun to head...I FULLY expect Mara to do half measures instead of a full teardown. He's an incompetent clown.

“Congrats Kevin Abrams, you’re our new GM!”

I think it will be up to the Tisch’s to pressure Mara into hiring from outside the organization. And I suspect that is what will happen, but to what extent, we’ll have to wait and see.

In comment 15484565 j_rud said:

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that he realizes he needs to radically change his approach. But there is no guarantee. But depending who has his ear it's not hard to see him pinning this failure on Gettleman and injuries while completely overlooking his own culpability in bringing Gettleman here in the first place. But I'd bet my next months salary that we get more half measures: some assistants go but Judge stays. Jones is retained because, he, it's REALLY his make or break year. Keep Barkley because its only been 18 months since the injury. And guess where we'll be next December? Miserable again but hey, we got hope! The new GM can pick his coach, and that's when we'll really get back on track!

Disastrous enough? It's not we're coming in last or anything

has some kind of ties to the Giants. Whether he is currently here, or used to be, or whatever. There is going to be some history somewhere.

He can be viewed as an “outsider” but he really isn’t. He knows how the Giants operate, will respect how they do business & he’s Parcells son in law.

I think Mara will be comfortable with that. Abrams probably stays in his role because what other job is he getting?

What I’d like to see? DG & Abrams fired with someone currently employed from a successful organization being hired.

In comment 15484570 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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Gun to head...I FULLY expect Mara to do half measures instead of a full teardown. He's an incompetent clown.

I don't see how anyone could expect anything else.

In comment 15484600 Sean said:

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He can be viewed as an “outsider” but he really isn’t. He knows how the Giants operate, will respect how they do business & he’s Parcells son in law. I think Mara will be comfortable with that. Abrams probably stays in his role because what other job is he getting? What I’d like to see? DG & Abrams fired with someone currently employed from a successful organization being hired.

Abrams needs to go with Gettleman. Obviously Gettleman was the GM but Abrams is currently the capologist for a team that can not even field a full 53 man roster. That could be the most embarrassing aspect of the entire shit show.

Haha. Good Lord. And I can see it too.

In comment 15484576 Section331 said:

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“Congrats Kevin Abrams, you’re our new GM!” I think it will be up to the Tisch’s to pressure Mara into hiring from outside the organization. And I suspect that is what will happen, but to what extent, we’ll have to wait and see.

It's my understanding that when you hear there are too many cooks in the kitchen people from the Tisch side are in that kitchen. I think that is part of the problem, I think a lot of people think they are "read in" on the football stuff and have an impact on the team. I think that is one of the things holding them back and very much a co-owner problem. IMO the concern of bringing in an outsider is that maybe that person will just figure things out for themselves instead of seeking out the opinions of an extended brain trust.

Judge was a half measure of an outside the comfort zone hire. No, no history with the Giants. But from the Belichick tree. Ownership is completely and utterly incapable of doing anything outside of their comfort zone. This old guard traditionalist bullshit is strangling this team like a poisonous weed.

From within and Mara won’t care what the media says (they never torch him anyway). Hopefully the fans stop showing up

In comment 15484615 TommyWiseau said:

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From within and Mara won’t care what the media says (they never torch him anyway). Hopefully the fans stop showing up

You are presenting this like it is a fact.

In comment 15484614 j_rud said:

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Judge was a half measure of an outside the comfort zone hire. No, no history with the Giants. But from the Belichick tree. Ownership is completely and utterly incapable of doing anything outside of their comfort zone. This old guard traditionalist bullshit is strangling this team like a poisonous weed.

I believe Reeves & Shurmur were the only HC hires which didn’t have some sort of NYG ties prior since Parcells.

-Handley was on an earlier staff within
-Reeves was an outside hire
-Fassel was on an earlier staff within
-Coughlin was on an earlier staff within
-McAdoo was on an earlier staff within
-Shurmur was an outside hire
-Judge worked for and was recommended by Belichick

But I would target John Dorsey or Thomas Dimitroff

Is how does Johnny Boy sleep at night!

or someone else not currently employed by one of the other 31 teams because anyone who is a "hot" candidate will wait for a real GM job with football autonomy. The person who replaces Gettleman will have to work within the Giants organizational structure will probably be pretty desperate and not have any other options.

If the next GM has other options why would he want to be the guy who talks to the media after lobbying the Giants committee (made of up of many Mara's) for approval of the direction he wants to go with the roster, who the coach will be, what players to sign in FA and who to draft. All GMs report to an owner but not the way the Giants organization is setup.

The Giants GM job is different from every other GM job in the NFL. Two families owning 50/50 of the team and several very active owners in the football operation. Not one owner, at least three of them.

We all thought Mara didn't look for anyone but Gettleman and Ernie even said this year that he owed Gettleman since he passed him over for Reese when he retired so that's why he recommended him. But I haven't seen much talk that considered that Gettleman being as desperate as he was one of the few people that would take a GM job on Mara's terms.

Why do you think it worked so well from 2004-2012? Were there less voices back then? The whole operation seemed to run smooth with Reese-Coughlin-Eli up through 2012.

just not about football. He watched his dad run the organization into the ground in the 70s and learned NOTHING!
He will put conditions on his interviews for new GM to retain Judge AND Jones. He’s too afraid of the optics of another HC failure and a failed attempt to replace ELI. He makes reactionary decisions not well thought out and doesn’t see big pictures. Essentially I’m saying we have no shot, unless we get REAL lucky.

Maintains the comfort level while checking the outside the organization box

In comment 15484649 Sean said:

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Why do you think it worked so well from 2004-2012? Were there less voices back then? The whole operation seemed to run smooth with Reese-Coughlin-Eli up through 2012.

Reese hurt himself by drafting JPP. He was the workout/heifht weight speed freak and he panned out. after that Reese fell in love with unicorn hunting.

Reese and Coughlin grew apart as Reese began the constant never resigning our own proven guys. Thats when the fingers started to be pointed. And I do feel Matt Dodge being drafted tied Coughlins hands and dont think he ever wanted him on the team and was proven to be right about it

In comment 15484653 Dave on the UWS said:

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just not about football. He watched his dad run the organization into the ground in the 70s and learned NOTHING! He will put conditions on his interviews for new GM to retain Judge AND Jones. He’s too afraid of the optics of another HC failure and a failed attempt to replace ELI. He makes reactionary decisions not well thought out and doesn’t see big pictures. Essentially I’m saying we have no shot, unless we get REAL lucky.

This is exactly right. What the organization needs is a full cleaning. What will happen is exactly what happened in 2017, the next GM will have conditions and marching orders- namely keeping Jones. Things will look slightly different, but nothing will change.

..

In comment 15484570 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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Gun to head...I FULLY expect Mara to do half measures instead of a full teardown. He's an incompetent clown.

Unfortunately,this is what will happen.

But my opinion is that when Ernie retired that was the end of the George Young organizational era of the Giants. Again this is just my opinion but reading Ernie's book and listening to things he's said over the years I believe he quit because he lost his authority.

Tom Coughlin was not his choice John Mara hired him because of how Wellington Mara felt about him. Wellington passed away in 2005. After the 2006 season John Mara had a meeting with Coughlin and made a few ultimatums about changes to his coaching staff and dealing better with the media and the players. After the 2006 season with rumors of friction behind the scenes and Coughlin going nowhere Ernie retired. Again just my opinion, I believe Ernie quit for the same reason Tiki quit after 2006. They both couldn't stand working with Tom Coughlin who had John Mara's ear. Jerry Reese was promoted to GM.

Then the Giants won the Super Bowl in 2007 and Tom Coughlin who was the GM in Jacksonville started to influence for better or worse the organizational decisions more than any Giants coach since George Young was hired. Things actually stated to erode before 2012. The 2011 Super Bowl was won with the fumes of the Ernie teams and JPP, Cruz & Nicks. By 2012 the Giants OL was one of the worst in the NFL and it still is.

In 2012 the Giants officially changed their org chart for the first time since George Young was hired by elevating the VP of Personnel to the same level as the GM. To this day both positions are Senior Vice Presidents and report to the CEO, IMO that's a tough spot for an outside GM to come into since the other SRVP and the CEO are brothers who own the team. An org chart like that is how we wind up rooting for a team with Dave Gettleman as the GM. What competent NFL executive would want that job under those circumstances?

And hire a President of Football Operations, and remove himself from football decisions. That person would need to be able to clean house of all football people, should they see fit.

Hiring a new GM, is not good enough a measure. There are obviously deeper issues here.

That def makes sense.

In comment 15484600 Sean said:

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He can be viewed as an “outsider” but he really isn’t. He knows how the Giants operate, will respect how they do business & he’s Parcells son in law. I think Mara will be comfortable with that. Abrams probably stays in his role because what other job is he getting? What I’d like to see? DG & Abrams fired with someone currently employed from a successful organization being hired.

I think you are right.

what a fucking disaster that would be. As usual, stuck in the fucking past

If not him, it will be somebody from the Pats organization with ties to our lame duck head coach that should be on the hot seat. He knows he can’t hire Abrams so he’ll go one branch down on the family tree instead. It will be somebody that will keep Abrams and other executives in place that is willing to work with Judge. Abrams can’t happen but they can easily spin Pioli without making any significant changes.

who will be making these decisions? The problem with the Giants organizations is that they operate with tunnel vision. They hired Garrett not because of his offensive scheme being right for their hopeful franchise QB, I doubt some even knew what offense he ran. They hired him because of past Giants ties so they felt comfortable. Giants operate hiring guys who believe in "The Giant way". With that said, if indeed they go outside the box, who in the organization will make these decisions? Who's scouting potential GM candidates from other teams who can bring the team to the modern era? That's the problem. It starts from the top, if the status quo at the top remains, nothing will ever truly change?

I just don't recall, up until this coming off-season, the Giants' salary cap being an issue. I do have the distinct impression that the team spent big in FA at the behest of DG and it was Abrams' job to fit it all in under the cap. When Abrams was interviewed this off-season you could hear the pain in his voice about what 2022 might look like.
I strongly support bringing in a GM from the outside (e.g. Ossenfort, KC player personnel, etc.), but I don't think Abrams needs to go because DG wanted to try and win big this season.

Abrams appears to be a bright, capable guy.

I wish he would have gotten the nod last time.

This time around I think everyone goes.

a couple of Asst GM or Director of Player Personnel types?
One from Detroit, one from ?Cleveland?

needs to go down to Baltimore and find someone from that organization and hire him. They always put a winning product on the field.

those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. I'll look at the last 3 GMs the Giants have had:

George Young was not an internal hire. Ernie Accorsi was technically an internal hire serving under George Young as his assistant for about 4 years. However, he had previous experience as a GM for the Colts and Browns. Next is Jerry Reese. Sorry Reese haters but we got 2 SBs under his tenure and he made many great draft picks. Reese was very much an internal hire. However, Reese worked his way up starting as a scout and must have shown the ability to scout great players. Do we have that now? How's our scouting now?

I'm sure Kevin Abrams is the front runner but he's been under people producing a losing record for awhile now. OP makes a good point that Abrams could very well be just more of the same. What experience did he gain that shows he can turn this around?

Regardless, Giants' ownership needs to get this right. Giants haven't had a decent OL for over a decade and they have had a bad injury history in the same amount of time. Our FA and Draft picks spend more time on a bench or riding a bike than they do on the field.

Is there any NFL GM who is a cap/contracts specialist rather than a personnel/talent specialist?

Serious question. Can you name one? Abrams would be a complete outlier among his peers.

In comment 15484622 Sean said:

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In comment 15484614 j_rud said: Quote: Judge was a half measure of an outside the comfort zone hire. No, no history with the Giants. But from the Belichick tree. Ownership is completely and utterly incapable of doing anything outside of their comfort zone. This old guard traditionalist bullshit is strangling this team like a poisonous weed. I believe Reeves & Shurmur were the only HC hires which didn’t have some sort of NYG ties prior since Parcells. -Handley was on an earlier staff within -Reeves was an outside hire -Fassel was on an earlier staff within -Coughlin was on an earlier staff within -McAdoo was on an earlier staff within -Shurmur was an outside hire -Judge worked for and was recommended by Belichick

We were talking about the Reeves hire the other day. Apparently he was not an option at first as the assumption was he would want too much control. While he was playing golf with Frank Gifford the subject came up. He told Gifford I don't need total control. Gifford relayed the message to the Giants and bingo he was hired. So much for the vaunted research into hiring by the Maras.

In comment 15484906 cosmicj said:

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Is there any NFL GM who is a cap/contracts specialist rather than a personnel/talent specialist? Serious question. Can you name one? Abrams would be a complete outlier among his peers.

I believe Howie Roseman is a cap guy as GM for the Eagles.

In comment 15484890 holmancomedown said:

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needs to go down to Baltimore and find someone from that organization and hire him. They always put a winning product on the field.

You mean... the way Brad Pitt went to Cleveland to find Jonah Hill and they collaborated to put a winning team on the field?

In comment 15484917 Bubba said:

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We were talking about the Reeves hire the other day. Apparently he was not an option at first as the assumption was he would want too much control. While he was playing golf with Frank Gifford the subject came up. He told Gifford I don't need total control. Gifford relayed the message to the Giants and bingo he was hired. So much for the vaunted research into hiring by the Maras.

For a guy who had no control, he sure as hell fucked up the roster. Brought in his guys from Denver. We had Stover on the roster who was on one of the best kickers in NFL history. Reeves wanted his guy from Denver. He let McCaffrey go too. Turned us into a pussy AFC team. For those of you who are too young to remember, the NFC was smash-mouth and the AFC was finesse at that time.

We would have been better off with Keanu Reeves. The team would have been totally excellent.

In comment 15484701 mitch300 said:

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In comment 15484570 SFGFNCGiantsFan said: Quote: Gun to head...I FULLY expect Mara to do half measures instead of a full teardown. He's an incompetent clown. Unfortunately,this is what will happen.

As Giant fans we shouldn’t accept this. I fully expect this to happen as well. Half measures got us to this point. Firing TC but keeping Reese. Firing Shurmur but keeping Gettleman, know he’s gonna force this loser of a head coach Jugde oh the new Gm, it’s gonna be another disaster.

Most of us acknowledge next year is a wasted season anyway. The bigger issue is getting a GM from the outside. The new GM can just as easily bring in his own guy for 2023.

I also think any prospective GM would be fine with this, because the clock doesn’t even start until 2023 then. Buys them time to work on the cap and evaluate.

virtually every football management decision made since Jawn wanted another SB run for his new ballpark has been wrong.

The Giants have had one general manager in 50 years from outside the organization- George Young, and we all know how that came about and it isn't the fairy tale told on Giants.com.

In comment 15484922 Sean said:

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In comment 15484906 cosmicj said: Quote: Is there any NFL GM who is a cap/contracts specialist rather than a personnel/talent specialist? Serious question. Can you name one? Abrams would be a complete outlier among his peers. I believe Howie Roseman is a cap guy as GM for the Eagles.

Sean - yep, you’re right. Roseman is a lawyer and cap specialist. When he became GM, Reid had extensive say in personnel matters, as did Chip Kelly after him.

That’s one but the promotion to GM happened with a prominent coach on board. Currently, Andy Weidl is the Eagles VP for player personnel. Weidl came up through the Ravens organization. Sounds like Weidl should be a candidate for the Giants job.

If Kevin Abram's had been sitting in draft rooms saying things like "Dave, take Quentin Nelson not the RB" or "Dave, I don't know about this Baker kid, we didn't do enough homework on him" or "Wait a year and we'll try to get Herbert".

If he's been pounding the table for one thing and Dave's been doing another, I get it. Unfortunately, I don't think this is the case at all.

In comment 15484565 j_rud said:

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that he realizes he needs to radically change his approach. But there is no guarantee. But depending who has his ear it's not hard to see him pinning this failure on Gettleman and injuries while completely overlooking his own culpability in bringing Gettleman here in the first place. I feel like it's pretty clear that the best move is to can everyone involved and blow up the entire roster. A true rebuild, none of this "compete while rebuilding" nonsense, orchestrated by fresh eyes and ideas. But I'd bet my next months salary that we get more half measures: some assistants go but Judge stays. Jones is retained because, he, it's REALLY his make or break year. Keep Barkley because its only been 18 months since the injury. And guess where we'll be next December? Miserable again but hey, we got hope! The new GM can pick his coach, and that's when we'll really get back on track!

Jrud, I believe we did turnover the entire roster or most of it since 2017. It’s just that we turned it over to a bigger pile of shit.

In comment 15484649 Sean said:

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Why do you think it worked so well from 2004-2012? Were there less voices back then? The whole operation seemed to run smooth with Reese-Coughlin-Eli up through 2012.

It was around that time our GM got to arrogant. Drafting the JPPs of TEs and so on. Every pick was out of character and made no sense. Drafting JPP and it working, made the scouting and draft department think they were smarter than everyone else.

There is something to say about remaining humble in life, love and work.

and force a GM on the Giants the way they did back in the 80s.

In comment 15484750 Bear vs Shark said:

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what a fucking disaster that would be. As usual, stuck in the fucking past

I think you are right to be skeptical on Pioli.

While he did receive several Exec of the Year honors with New England, most would conclude that he was riding the coattails of BB. Like most things in New England.

Pioli was decent in KC making all of the decision. But things went very sideways in his fourth year and he was fired. And then he rode shotgun to Dimitrof in ATL.

I'm okay with him being in the mix for the GM slot. But I can think of more than a few I would prefer instead.