Canty was on the Bart and Hahn show (ESPN 98.7) yesterday afternoon and did bring up the Mara family's involvement in the teams operations. Specifically Chris Mara as SVP of Personnel being deeply involved in college player evaluations, the draft and the Giants draft board. Also mentioned his son being employed now and referenced that Chris has been in that position since 2011.
He left out the dysfunctional reporting line of Chris Mara directly reporting up to his brother John instead of the GM like most normal organizations.
I personally have had enough talking about Judge, Gettleman, Jones etc. They are simply the deck chairs on the Titanic.
I would encourage us all to call in and email these media personalities reinforcing what we talk about here and maybe we can create the groundswell that can't be ignored by the Mara's. Specifically to get Chris and his son out of operations given the failed talent evaluations over the last ten years.
I have called WFAN and briefly mentioned this point. If we all do, at least the spotlight will be shone on it. The media are like vipers and if we push this thread it will resonate. For too long it's been below the surface and most media types don't even know about it. Once they do I'm sure it will be a top topic going forward.
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their talent evaluation and personnel decisions began to decline in 2011 when he stepped into this leadership role.
Good luck proving it or getting them to boot a family member.
This.
To those who say it's all Gettleman, I then ask whether C. Mara's and McDonnell's jobs are figurehead or no-show jobs, in which case that's a different problem. Best I can tell it's by committee, and the committee isn't doing a good job. But as Jon says, good luck getting them to boot a family member. I think the best we can hope for is that they hire a strong and capable GM *and* give him more authority.
Yes, a committee of a few guys but the GM drives.
No, they aren't doing a good job especially the guy driving.
A GM that is a strong talent evaluator and runs a good process will do fine. And he doesn't need any more authority than already given.
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In comment 15485197 JonC said:
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their talent evaluation and personnel decisions began to decline in 2011 when he stepped into this leadership role.
Good luck proving it or getting them to boot a family member.
This.
To those who say it's all Gettleman, I then ask whether C. Mara's and McDonnell's jobs are figurehead or no-show jobs, in which case that's a different problem. Best I can tell it's by committee, and the committee isn't doing a good job. But as Jon says, good luck getting them to boot a family member. I think the best we can hope for is that they hire a strong and capable GM *and* give him more authority.
Yes, a committee of a few guys but the GM drives.
No, they aren't doing a good job especially the guy driving.
A GM that is a strong talent evaluator and runs a good process will do fine. And he doesn't need any more authority than already given.
what strong GM candidate is coming here when he has to share the role with untouchable guys?
How does he become a stronger voice than the maras before his guys hit the field, thus cutting them out of the loop? Its impossible
That actually did happen on the '86 team, as one of the Rooneys was on staff.
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In comment 15485197 JonC said:
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their talent evaluation and personnel decisions began to decline in 2011 when he stepped into this leadership role.
Good luck proving it or getting them to boot a family member.
This.
To those who say it's all Gettleman, I then ask whether C. Mara's and McDonnell's jobs are figurehead or no-show jobs, in which case that's a different problem. Best I can tell it's by committee, and the committee isn't doing a good job. But as Jon says, good luck getting them to boot a family member. I think the best we can hope for is that they hire a strong and capable GM *and* give him more authority.
Yes, a committee of a few guys but the GM drives.
No, they aren't doing a good job especially the guy driving.
A GM that is a strong talent evaluator and runs a good process will do fine. And he doesn't need any more authority than already given.
The problem is, any GM relies on scouting reports. And the scouts report to Chris Mara, not the GM.
stop looking for things to blame to maybe almost feel better about things.
the GM sucks- his signings suck- his drafts are pretty meh-- and his hirings suck.
period- end of story. everything else is whatever.
now if you want to blame the hiring of gettleman on the maras.... then that i am perfectly happy to jump on board with-- the process and hiring was pathetic- and they need to get outside the comfort zone, and remove themselves from the next gm process... will they? ehhh doubtful.
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their talent evaluation and personnel decisions began to decline in 2011 when he stepped into this leadership role.
Good luck proving it or getting them to boot a family member.
This.
To those who say it's all Gettleman, I then ask whether C. Mara's and McDonnell's jobs are figurehead or no-show jobs, in which case that's a different problem. Best I can tell it's by committee, and the committee isn't doing a good job. But as Jon says, good luck getting them to boot a family member. I think the best we can hope for is that they hire a strong and capable GM *and* give him more authority.
The problem with this argument is first, it goes against what the Giants have on their own website. The second is Chris Mara and Tim McDonnell get paychecks even if they have no position - like all the other Mara descendants. They are owners. They have the positions because they WANT TO WORK IN PERSONNEL. This isn't rocket science.
stop looking for things to blame to maybe almost feel better about things.
the GM sucks- his signings suck- his drafts are pretty meh-- and his hirings suck.
period- end of story. everything else is whatever.
now if you want to blame the hiring of gettleman on the maras.... then that i am perfectly happy to jump on board with-- the process and hiring was pathetic- and they need to get outside the comfort zone, and remove themselves from the next gm process... will they? ehhh doubtful.
no one is defending DG or saying he should keep his job
But to say everything else is "whatever" (not even sure what that means) is bullshit. It certainly isn't "whatever"
What role is he sharing?
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Dave Gettleman runs the personnel--- not someone who is not named the GM.
stop looking for things to blame to maybe almost feel better about things.
the GM sucks- his signings suck- his drafts are pretty meh-- and his hirings suck.
period- end of story. everything else is whatever.
now if you want to blame the hiring of gettleman on the maras.... then that i am perfectly happy to jump on board with-- the process and hiring was pathetic- and they need to get outside the comfort zone, and remove themselves from the next gm process... will they? ehhh doubtful.
no one is defending DG or saying he should keep his job
But to say everything else is "whatever" (not even sure what that means) is bullshit. It certainly isn't "whatever"
Chris Mara has been high on some big hits.... and high on some misses... just like most scouts and personnel people.
the GM owns the process- the final pick- and the structure of cap and players.
do you know the guys he was high on? the good ones? the ones that helped win SBs? do you know outside of davis fking webb... who he was high on that didnt work out (a 3rd rounder at that)
waste of time- fid the gm higher- and u fix the team.
lol
What role is he sharing?
"Some might view the Giants as having three GMs: the Mara brothers and Gettleman. "
Its probably up to 4 now with Nephew Timmy climbing the ranks
Yes this quote gets posted a lot - but until someone else posts a source saying the Maras are hands off, I'll trust this source.
Link - ( New Window )
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In comment 15485280 Del Shofner said:
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In comment 15485197 JonC said:
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their talent evaluation and personnel decisions began to decline in 2011 when he stepped into this leadership role.
Good luck proving it or getting them to boot a family member.
This.
To those who say it's all Gettleman, I then ask whether C. Mara's and McDonnell's jobs are figurehead or no-show jobs, in which case that's a different problem. Best I can tell it's by committee, and the committee isn't doing a good job. But as Jon says, good luck getting them to boot a family member. I think the best we can hope for is that they hire a strong and capable GM *and* give him more authority.
Yes, a committee of a few guys but the GM drives.
No, they aren't doing a good job especially the guy driving.
A GM that is a strong talent evaluator and runs a good process will do fine. And he doesn't need any more authority than already given.
The problem is, any GM relies on scouting reports. And the scouts report to Chris Mara, not the GM.
The scouts report to Chris Pettit, Director of College Scouting.
The same Chris Pettit who has come out in front of the media, sat next to Gettleman and discussed their process.
not Chris Mara...
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In comment 15485534 hitdog42 said:
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Dave Gettleman runs the personnel--- not someone who is not named the GM.
stop looking for things to blame to maybe almost feel better about things.
the GM sucks- his signings suck- his drafts are pretty meh-- and his hirings suck.
period- end of story. everything else is whatever.
now if you want to blame the hiring of gettleman on the maras.... then that i am perfectly happy to jump on board with-- the process and hiring was pathetic- and they need to get outside the comfort zone, and remove themselves from the next gm process... will they? ehhh doubtful.
no one is defending DG or saying he should keep his job
But to say everything else is "whatever" (not even sure what that means) is bullshit. It certainly isn't "whatever"
Chris Mara has been high on some big hits.... and high on some misses... just like most scouts and personnel people.
the GM owns the process- the final pick- and the structure of cap and players.
do you know the guys he was high on? the good ones? the ones that helped win SBs? do you know outside of davis fking webb... who he was high on that didnt work out (a 3rd rounder at that)
waste of time- fid the gm higher- and u fix the team.
why don't you educate us mr insider...
Seriously, not being snarky. What good picks was he behind?
I remember when Kate brought Ahmad Bradshaw to his attention, what other anecdotes are out there?
He's in the band, but his mic and keyboards aren't plugged in.
I've heard enough from Accorsi over the years that the GM has immense decision making powers.
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The GM puts together the process of building the roster and the new additions each year in free agency and draft. He is the one driving and garnering input along the way, probably more from some.
What role is he sharing?
"Some might view the Giants as having three GMs: the Mara brothers and Gettleman. "
Its probably up to 4 now with Nephew Timmy climbing the ranks
Yes this quote gets posted a lot - but until someone else posts a source saying the Maras are hands off, I'll trust this source. Link - ( New Window )
They have one GM. The Mara's are Front Office people too and get involved, no one is disputing it. They are in the car...listening to the process and the recommendations, and probably providing some feedback and input.
But the GM is driving.
Find a better driver and things will work out...
He's in the band, but his mic and keyboards aren't plugged in.
I've heard enough from Accorsi over the years that the GM has immense decision making powers.
What constitutes actual evidence?
You need a video of him phoning in the pick to the league?
Did anyone ever lose sleep over the Maras interfering when Reese and Coughlin were running things?
So then my advice is find a new team to root for, or live with it.
And I will go on thinking you are wrong, and that a competent GM that is a good evaluator of talent will ultimately fix this team...
Did anyone ever lose sleep over the Maras interfering when Reese and Coughlin were running things?
If You’re willing to go back a little further in time, yes people were very worried.
In fact one brother had to wrestle personal management away from the other brother.
If You’re willing to go back a little further in time, yes people were very worried.
In fact one brother had to wrestle personal management away from the other brother.
I don’t think the Maras and Tisch are in a power struggle — they seem all relatively on the same page.
As was with Young, Accorsi, and early Reese - when the GMs do well we don’t hear much about interference.
So then my advice is find a new team to root for, or live with it.
And I will go on thinking you are wrong, and that a competent GM that is a good evaluator of talent will ultimately fix this team...
What if they hire an unqualified insider like Abrams? Will that change your thinking at all?
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Did anyone ever lose sleep over the Maras interfering when Reese and Coughlin were running things?
If You’re willing to go back a little further in time, yes people were very worried.
In fact one brother had to wrestle personal management away from the other brother.
I don’t think the Maras and Tisch are in a power struggle — they seem all relatively on the same page.
As was with Young, Accorsi, and early Reese - when the GMs do well we don’t hear much about interference.
Sounds like Tish forced the Shurmur firing. He seems to be stepping in more and more as the team performs worse and worse.
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In comment 15485516 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 15485280 Del Shofner said:
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In comment 15485197 JonC said:
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their talent evaluation and personnel decisions began to decline in 2011 when he stepped into this leadership role.
Good luck proving it or getting them to boot a family member.
This.
To those who say it's all Gettleman, I then ask whether C. Mara's and McDonnell's jobs are figurehead or no-show jobs, in which case that's a different problem. Best I can tell it's by committee, and the committee isn't doing a good job. But as Jon says, good luck getting them to boot a family member. I think the best we can hope for is that they hire a strong and capable GM *and* give him more authority.
Yes, a committee of a few guys but the GM drives.
No, they aren't doing a good job especially the guy driving.
A GM that is a strong talent evaluator and runs a good process will do fine. And he doesn't need any more authority than already given.
The problem is, any GM relies on scouting reports. And the scouts report to Chris Mara, not the GM.
The scouts report to Chris Pettit, Director of College Scouting.
The same Chris Pettit who has come out in front of the media, sat next to Gettleman and discussed their process.
not Chris Mara...
Who smiles for the camera is one thing, but the Giants website has Chris Mara at the top of the scouting section, not Pettit (or Gettleman).
Did anyone ever lose sleep over the Maras interfering when Reese and Coughlin were running things?
I'd posit the Maras weren't really interfering with things to a detrimental extent until 2012.
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Some of you have convinced yourselves that the NY Giant GM job is just some puppet for the Mara family, and that he doesn't have enough authority in his role. And that the real decisions are made by incompetent family members that aren't going anywhere, anytime soon.
So then my advice is find a new team to root for, or live with it.
And I will go on thinking you are wrong, and that a competent GM that is a good evaluator of talent will ultimately fix this team...
What if they hire an unqualified insider like Abrams? Will that change your thinking at all?
It won't change my view that they need a good evaluator of player talent in the GM role. Seems to me he is a flawed choice based on the poor processes/decisions that went on with the guys he worked with.
The problem is, any GM relies on scouting reports. And the scouts report to Chris Mara, not the GM.
The scouts report to Chris Pettit, Director of College Scouting.
The same Chris Pettit who has come out in front of the media, sat next to Gettleman and discussed their process.
not Chris Mara...
Who smiles for the camera is one thing, but the Giants website has Chris Mara at the top of the scouting section, not Pettit (or Gettleman).
So now Pettit is a patsy too? Just a face guy to be thrown to the media while Chris Mara develops his own scouting reports that are the "real" ones used?
man, you're killin' me Smalls...
I don't think so, but not certain.
But if you are correct and the GM is not driving, then why didn't they just hire Abrams as the GM 4 years ago versus wasting time bringing in Gettleman?
The same Gettleman who had just gotten fired from Carolina for not going along with what ownership wanted him to do because he thought it was the wrong path.
One thing is Gettleman would have known that based on his prior tenure here and relationships in/out of the building. And as mentioned, had just been fired for exercising his authority in Carolina, so now all of sudden he has a change of stripes?
Further, he is a pretty egotistical guy and always concerned about publicly defending his views and quoting his resume. So do you think he would be the guy to just "laydown" behind the scenes? Or even moreso have his personal reputation put at risk by following others advice that he disagreed with or felt were not competently thought out? Or put up with just being a weak self-servant to the Mara's while he was fighting cancer in the meanwhile?
Again, we don't have to agree but I am willing to hear more as long as you bring something compelling to the table...
For the Giants, my guess is it’s a matter of degree of involvement. I’d guess on a scale of 1-10 Gettleman started with about a 2 and probably lives with a 5.
I’d guess Reese started with a 0 and ended with a 10.
The next guy can get it down to zero if he exhibits the ability to do his job.
One thing is Gettleman would have known that based on his prior tenure here and relationships in/out of the building. And as mentioned, had just been fired for exercising his authority in Carolina, so now all of sudden he has a change of stripes?
Further, he is a pretty egotistical guy and always concerned about publicly defending his views and quoting his resume. So do you think he would be the guy to just "laydown" behind the scenes? Or even moreso have his personal reputation put at risk by following others advice that he disagreed with or felt were not competently thought out? Or put up with just being a weak self-servant to the Mara's while he was fighting cancer in the meanwhile?
Again, we don't have to agree but I am willing to hear more as long as you bring something compelling to the table...
I'm sure Gettleman had authority.
If I had to guess, I bet he was behind trading Odell after the Mara's insisted on signing him.
I think Christian is mostly right that there will always be some level of owner involvement in all pro sports. But with the current model of Chris and Tim making it their career, its impossible for it to be a zero with the Giants. I'm willing to bet Gettlemen met with both of them on all major decisions. Basically anything above in season free agent signings and practice squad moves. I doubt Tim and Chris stop showing up to work if all of a sudden the team becomes a contender.
And unless Tish forces those guys out, it will be the same with the next GM.
Davis Webb didn't pan out but I don't think that was considered to be a bad pick or reach at the time. He was a pretty well-regarded QB prospect.
The Giants as a franchise have 4 super bowls. But if we really want to take a hard look at it, the first two weren't John Mara. It was Parcells, Young, Belichick, and Taylor. John Mara wasn't running it.
John Mara didn't hire Coughlin. Perhaps he rubber stamped the decision to draft Eli Manning, but no one thinks John Mara had a heavy hand in 2004-2009. Since firing Coughlin and dumping Reese, this has been John Mara steering the ship.
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lacks true authority and is overrun by the Mara family.
One thing is Gettleman would have known that based on his prior tenure here and relationships in/out of the building. And as mentioned, had just been fired for exercising his authority in Carolina, so now all of sudden he has a change of stripes?
Further, he is a pretty egotistical guy and always concerned about publicly defending his views and quoting his resume. So do you think he would be the guy to just "laydown" behind the scenes? Or even moreso have his personal reputation put at risk by following others advice that he disagreed with or felt were not competently thought out? Or put up with just being a weak self-servant to the Mara's while he was fighting cancer in the meanwhile?
Again, we don't have to agree but I am willing to hear more as long as you bring something compelling to the table...
I'm sure Gettleman had authority.
If I had to guess, I bet he was behind trading Odell after the Mara's insisted on signing him.
I think Christian is mostly right that there will always be some level of owner involvement in all pro sports. But with the current model of Chris and Tim making it their career, its impossible for it to be a zero with the Giants. I'm willing to bet Gettlemen met with both of them on all major decisions. Basically anything above in season free agent signings and practice squad moves. I doubt Tim and Chris stop showing up to work if all of a sudden the team becomes a contender.
And unless Tish forces those guys out, it will be the same with the next GM.
Sounds generally in line.
Nobody ever suggested Chris, Tim and even John have zero involvement. And I am certain the GM has to deal talking with them all, individually and as a group, on major items (and maybe even some moderate ones). Hell, I would want that if I were them and the team has lost for this many years and the current GM isn't delivering positive change too.
But this is Gettleman's car wreck and he was behind the wheel for the last 4 years.
If Chris Mara did in fact have as much pull as everyone seems to think, he wouldn't let some new GM come in and get rid of all of "his guys"
Does he have some input? Sure. But he is not the ultimate decision maker. Far from it if I had to guess..even behind our coward of a coach Joe Judge.
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The problem is, any GM relies on scouting reports. And the scouts report to Chris Mara, not the GM.
The scouts report to Chris Pettit, Director of College Scouting.
The same Chris Pettit who has come out in front of the media, sat next to Gettleman and discussed their process.
not Chris Mara...
Who smiles for the camera is one thing, but the Giants website has Chris Mara at the top of the scouting section, not Pettit (or Gettleman).
So now Pettit is a patsy too? Just a face guy to be thrown to the media while Chris Mara develops his own scouting reports that are the "real" ones used?
man, you're killin' me Smalls...
Pettit reports to Mara. It's right there on the Giants website. So ... either we're delusional, and the GIANTS OFFICIAL WEBSITE is in on our delusion, or you're wrong. Pick one.
If Chris Mara did in fact have as much pull as everyone seems to think, he wouldn't let some new GM come in and get rid of all of "his guys"
Does he have some input? Sure. But he is not the ultimate decision maker. Far from it if I had to guess..even behind our coward of a coach Joe Judge.
There is no ultimate decider really. The Giants have said it before that they run on committee. The problem is that committee is 2 owners and a GM.
The GM is taking all the shots, all we're saying is that the owner who is in charge of personnel - according to the Giants own website - should also be held accountable.
I mean, he has a huge title, he's an owner, and he's always wanted to be an NFL personnel guy. He's also completely unaccountable and bullet proof.
Unless he does literally nothing, he certainly must disrupt the chain of command to some degree. Do we believe that he's really a subordinate to the GM? The same way he would be if he had a different last name?
This isn't some internet blame game where people are trying to deflect from Gettleman’s ineptitude. His fans either flipped or vanished. This is a legitimate inquiry into a nepostitic component of a dysfunctional organization
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In comment 15485673 FStubbs said:
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The problem is, any GM relies on scouting reports. And the scouts report to Chris Mara, not the GM.
The scouts report to Chris Pettit, Director of College Scouting.
The same Chris Pettit who has come out in front of the media, sat next to Gettleman and discussed their process.
not Chris Mara...
Who smiles for the camera is one thing, but the Giants website has Chris Mara at the top of the scouting section, not Pettit (or Gettleman).
So now Pettit is a patsy too? Just a face guy to be thrown to the media while Chris Mara develops his own scouting reports that are the "real" ones used?
man, you're killin' me Smalls...
Pettit reports to Mara. It's right there on the Giants website. So ... either we're delusional, and the GIANTS OFFICIAL WEBSITE is in on our delusion, or you're wrong. Pick one.
You can stare at that Website all day long and quote who you think directly reports to whom. It's not what I am debating.
I said Pettit is the head of scouting, he runs that process, and the scouts report to him. And that info is ultimately prepared for the GM of the NY Giants.
If Chris Mara, in his capacity, reads it as well...then fine.
Are you suggesting something else happens that is different that what I wrote?
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look at how much turnover there was in the roster when DG was hired. All of Reeses guys were gone.
If Chris Mara did in fact have as much pull as everyone seems to think, he wouldn't let some new GM come in and get rid of all of "his guys"
Does he have some input? Sure. But he is not the ultimate decision maker. Far from it if I had to guess..even behind our coward of a coach Joe Judge.
There is no ultimate decider really. The Giants have said it before that they run on committee. The problem is that committee is 2 owners and a GM.
The GM is taking all the shots, all we're saying is that the owner who is in charge of personnel - according to the Giants own website - should also be held accountable.
Held accountable...how?
If he is providing input/making decisions that he is not capable of doing, then are you expecting him to be fired and not provide the same input as an owner?
If he is providing input/making decisions that are actually beneficial or at least better than others, then don't you want him to stay as is?
If he isn't really providing input/making decisions much at all much and not a negative influence, but since he is an owner, does it matter?
Take your pick...
I mean, he has a huge title, he's an owner, and he's always wanted to be an NFL personnel guy. He's also completely unaccountable and bullet proof.
Unless he does literally nothing, he certainly must disrupt the chain of command to some degree. Do we believe that he's really a subordinate to the GM? The same way he would be if he had a different last name?
This isn't some internet blame game where people are trying to deflect from Gettleman’s ineptitude. His fans either flipped or vanished. This is a legitimate inquiry into a nepostitic component of a dysfunctional organization
Good post Jerry. That's what I've been trying to say.
I mean, he has a huge title, he's an owner, and he's always wanted to be an NFL personnel guy. He's also completely unaccountable and bullet proof.
Unless he does literally nothing, he certainly must disrupt the chain of command to some degree. Do we believe that he's really a subordinate to the GM? The same way he would be if he had a different last name?
This isn't some internet blame game where people are trying to deflect from Gettleman’s ineptitude. His fans either flipped or vanished. This is a legitimate inquiry into a nepostitic component of a dysfunctional organization
I am in the camp downplaying Chris Mara's role. Yes, he has a big title, has ownership, a desire to be a football voice, etc.
But he isn't the GM. The position recognized across the league that decides on final personnel moves, builds the roster, decides contracts, etc. So why is that?
I believe the answer is that John, for all of his faults, recognizes that having an independent, non-family GM was how the organization rose to prominence in the '80s with the hiring of Young (per Rozelle). And he's not willing to make the decision making so incestuous that a family feud could lead to 1978 all over again. Plus, I think he's the de facto "lead" owner, which gives him the gavel to cast that decision.
So I am, instead, firmly in the corner that this collapse for the last decade has been largely led by two GMs, and their staffs, who lost their fastball and can't be trusted to build a competitive team.
Only way to try and change this disaster is stop buying gear, don't go to games if you do boo anytime the mara's or Tisch's name mentioned. Call in to shows write into newspapers and why not the parking lot! Otherwise this will continue.
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maybe the Dallas model isn't the one you want to hold up as an example? Since 95 they've won 1 playoff game. Plus Jerry's son has pushed him to the side somewhat and they've been drafting very well since. Maybe the Mara's should mirror the New England model instead? I don't think any of the Kraft's are running their draft board.
See that isn't the point I am making. I am saying they OWN the team. We can argue and demand all we want but they own it.
They own an NFL franchise. So it's not quite the same as owning an independent business. The NFL should have a responsibility to the cities it has teams in.
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In comment 15484978 arniefez said:
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maybe the Dallas model isn't the one you want to hold up as an example? Since 95 they've won 1 playoff game. Plus Jerry's son has pushed him to the side somewhat and they've been drafting very well since. Maybe the Mara's should mirror the New England model instead? I don't think any of the Kraft's are running their draft board.
See that isn't the point I am making. I am saying they OWN the team. We can argue and demand all we want but they own it.
They own an NFL franchise. So it's not quite the same as owning an independent business. The NFL should have a responsibility to the cities it has teams in.
Not with this commissioner. The owners are not going to allow a precedent of the league office stepping into the operations of an owner's franchise. Goodell is the owner's bagman. He does their bidding. Goodell has firmly told the world what side he stands on. The 32 owners are his boss.