Canty was on the Bart and Hahn show (ESPN 98.7) yesterday afternoon and did bring up the Mara family's involvement in the teams operations. Specifically Chris Mara as SVP of Personnel being deeply involved in college player evaluations, the draft and the Giants draft board. Also mentioned his son being employed now and referenced that Chris has been in that position since 2011.
He left out the dysfunctional reporting line of Chris Mara directly reporting up to his brother John instead of the GM like most normal organizations.
I personally have had enough talking about Judge, Gettleman, Jones etc. They are simply the deck chairs on the Titanic.
I would encourage us all to call in and email these media personalities reinforcing what we talk about here and maybe we can create the groundswell that can't be ignored by the Mara's. Specifically to get Chris and his son out of operations given the failed talent evaluations over the last ten years.
I have called WFAN and briefly mentioned this point. If we all do, at least the spotlight will be shone on it. The media are like vipers and if we push this thread it will resonate. For too long it's been below the surface and most media types don't even know about it. Once they do I'm sure it will be a top topic going forward.
They own the TEAM! The Jones's are all involved in Dallas. You can argue the point all you want but it isn't nepotism, it is called ownership.
Chris Mara has had one real job in his entire life. Son of Wellington Mara. There is nothing wrong with that and from his public persona I'll bet he's a very good guy and a lot of fun at parties.
I am not attacking him as a person or any of the Mara's. I just want him held accountable with his brother for ruining my favorite football team and hoping if it's publicized enough that maybe it will create some change.
Nothing like having someone making major decisions who cannot be reprimanded or fired. Recipe for success.. not.
But you are right, we need the media to start talking about it. Need the media to put it in the papers. Is it a coincidence that the team has gone down hill since he got his position in 2011? Maybe.. but maybe not. Is he the sole problem? No, but is he part of the problem? I am willing to bet yes in that
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shot down as hearsay multiple times, but imo there is no need for any Mara to be employed by this team other than nepotism. If a former part of this organization is saying that Mara is involved in creating this shit show...it needs to stop and they need to be held responsible.
They own the TEAM! The Jones's are all involved in Dallas. You can argue the point all you want but it isn't nepotism, it is called ownership.
I do believe at some point public pressure on this point can get him removed. Or at least motivate Tisch to push John Mara to move Chris out of that position. Regardless, I think after this year Tisch will force Mara to go outside the organization and hire someone with no previous ties. Just speculation on my part.
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shot down as hearsay multiple times, but imo there is no need for any Mara to be employed by this team other than nepotism. If a former part of this organization is saying that Mara is involved in creating this shit show...it needs to stop and they need to be held responsible.
They own the TEAM! The Jones's are all involved in Dallas. You can argue the point all you want but it isn't nepotism, it is called ownership.
Oh..the Maras OWN the team? My mistake. I retract all my statements. Everything is fine.
noun
the practice among those with power or influence of favoring relatives or friends, especially by giving them jobs.
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In comment 15484955 Thunderstruck27 said:
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shot down as hearsay multiple times, but imo there is no need for any Mara to be employed by this team other than nepotism. If a former part of this organization is saying that Mara is involved in creating this shit show...it needs to stop and they need to be held responsible.
They own the TEAM! The Jones's are all involved in Dallas. You can argue the point all you want but it isn't nepotism, it is called ownership.
Oh..the Maras OWN the team? My mistake. I retract all my statements. Everything is fine.
He has a point. Chis isn’t a brother of the owner, he is an owner. Same for nephew Timmy. As long as the profits keep coming in, there is little incentive to change anything.
Thanks for clarification.
Change.Org petition????
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In comment 15484963 jvm52106 said:
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In comment 15484955 Thunderstruck27 said:
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shot down as hearsay multiple times, but imo there is no need for any Mara to be employed by this team other than nepotism. If a former part of this organization is saying that Mara is involved in creating this shit show...it needs to stop and they need to be held responsible.
They own the TEAM! The Jones's are all involved in Dallas. You can argue the point all you want but it isn't nepotism, it is called ownership.
Oh..the Maras OWN the team? My mistake. I retract all my statements. Everything is fine.
He has a point. Chis isn’t a brother of the owner, he is an owner. Same for nephew Timmy. As long as the profits keep coming in, there is little incentive to change anything.
That is 100% the point. Take away the money. How did Mets fans finally get their wish?
See that isn't the point I am making. I am saying they OWN the team. We can argue and demand all we want but they own it.
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shot down as hearsay multiple times, but imo there is no need for any Mara to be employed by this team other than nepotism. If a former part of this organization is saying that Mara is involved in creating this shit show...it needs to stop and they need to be held responsible.
They own the TEAM! The Jones's are all involved in Dallas. You can argue the point all you want but it isn't nepotism, it is called ownership.
It's ownership when you win, nepotism when you lose. Apparently, nepotism is not working for the Giants.
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In comment 15484955 Thunderstruck27 said:
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shot down as hearsay multiple times, but imo there is no need for any Mara to be employed by this team other than nepotism. If a former part of this organization is saying that Mara is involved in creating this shit show...it needs to stop and they need to be held responsible.
They own the TEAM! The Jones's are all involved in Dallas. You can argue the point all you want but it isn't nepotism, it is called ownership.
Oh..the Maras OWN the team? My mistake. I retract all my statements. Everything is fine.
Giant fans can be upset all they want, but the team is and has always been a family owned AND RUN business. A family owned business might let outsiders run things, but a family RUN business does not, and is always preparing people in the family to take over when the time comes. The fans will not be able to change this.
But I agree with your premise, if fans keep making noise about this and if the press grows a spine and starts asking questions about it, maybe some positive change can happen.
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In comment 15484977 Thunderstruck27 said:
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In comment 15484963 jvm52106 said:
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In comment 15484955 Thunderstruck27 said:
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shot down as hearsay multiple times, but imo there is no need for any Mara to be employed by this team other than nepotism. If a former part of this organization is saying that Mara is involved in creating this shit show...it needs to stop and they need to be held responsible.
They own the TEAM! The Jones's are all involved in Dallas. You can argue the point all you want but it isn't nepotism, it is called ownership.
Oh..the Maras OWN the team? My mistake. I retract all my statements. Everything is fine.
He has a point. Chis isn’t a brother of the owner, he is an owner. Same for nephew Timmy. As long as the profits keep coming in, there is little incentive to change anything.
That is 100% the point. Take away the money. How did Mets fans finally get their wish?
Love him or hate him, he has very little to do with the current state of the NY Giants. And whoever the new GM is won't, either.
They are no better than 3rd on the decision-making totem pole. Maybe lower than that. What "big time" GM with options would ever sign up here?
They will be relegated to "company men" like Gettleman, Abrams, Pioli or Riddick - guys on the outside just happy for the title.
it absently is. and even if you aren't related, once you are in you are in.
Its a perfect example of an "old boys club".
Really wish a competing league would come along
You can win with this ownership, it's been proven. However, you cannot win with the current ownership structure and rampant nepotism. It grows clearer by the season that 2007 and 2011 were the last remnants of the Pete Rozelle intervention with Wellington, which brough Young, which brought a then competent Accorsi, and - at least for the first part of his tenure - a Reese that somewhat understood the modern game. The culmination of which yielded Coughlin and Eli. As others have said, it's been a continuous downhill slide since 2011 - or the ascension of Mara nepotism. Most likely stemming from the overconfidence rooted in the 07 and 11 titles.
Unfortunately, in the 70s, the NFL required a quality Giants franchise, as it was in the biggest market in the country and one of the cornerstones of the league. That is not the case now, the league has grown beyond a need for its cornerstone franchises to be successful and we are unlikely to ever see league intervention short of a Frank McCourt esq situation.
so excited about the upcoming Draft.
Love him or hate him, he has very little to do with the current state of the NY Giants. And whoever the new GM is won't, either.
They are no better than 3rd on the decision-making totem pole. Maybe lower than that. What "big time" GM with options would ever sign up here?
They will be relegated to "company men" like Gettleman, Abrams, Pioli or Riddick - guys on the outside just happy for the title.
This is just wrong. And each paragraph too...
But think about what you know of DG. He comes here and publicly proclaims himself an OL expert that will fix the line. The nastiest OL in years is sitting right there in the draft. Grew up a Giants fan. If was too perfect.
IMO - Barkley was the ultra-marketable owner (Mara) pick. Nothing to prove that but it just makes sense. They saw dollar signs with Barkley.
*hangs up phone*
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And more likely, if and when the Giants find a competent GM that has good player evaluation skills then the family stuff will just fall in line or become irrelevant.
Might get a decent crowd if it was catered! :)
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HOw dare you, sanity and reality not welcome where BBI hyperbole rules and know it all experts spend two hours a week on their couch watching A game through a keyhole and seven days ranting about through a megaphone....sad
shot down as hearsay multiple times, but imo there is no need for any Mara to be employed by this team other than nepotism. If a former part of this organization is saying that Mara is involved in creating this shit show...it needs to stop and they need to be held responsible.
They own the TEAM! The Jones's are all involved in Dallas. You can argue the point all you want but it isn't nepotism, it is called ownership.
And more likely, if and when the Giants find a competent GM that has good player evaluation skills then the family stuff will just fall in line or become irrelevant.
I think the point people are making is that the GM's player evaluation skills are not what controls in the Giants organization, as Mara-Mara-McDonnell are the actual decision-makers (or at least strong influencers) as to personnel.
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makes for good drama on BBI. While it will probably be better if they weren't intertwined in whatever that capacity is, likely not worth the concern.
And more likely, if and when the Giants find a competent GM that has good player evaluation skills then the family stuff will just fall in line or become irrelevant.
I think the point people are making is that the GM's player evaluation skills are not what controls in the Giants organization, as Mara-Mara-McDonnell are the actual decision-makers (or at least strong influencers) as to personnel.
Understand their point, except that's not what is happening.
The GM is driving the ship on player evals/acquisition.
My guess is the avearage Giants fan is blaming one or more of Gettleman, Judge, John Mara or even Jones for the Giants suckatude.
If the average Giants fan isn't really aware of Chris Mara or his role, then John Mara doesn't have to address it. He can bring in a new (outsider) GM to replace DG along with some new players and assistant coaches and most fans won't be calling for Chris Mara's head.
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In comment 15485068 Jimmy Googs said:
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makes for good drama on BBI. While it will probably be better if they weren't intertwined in whatever that capacity is, likely not worth the concern.
And more likely, if and when the Giants find a competent GM that has good player evaluation skills then the family stuff will just fall in line or become irrelevant.
I think the point people are making is that the GM's player evaluation skills are not what controls in the Giants organization, as Mara-Mara-McDonnell are the actual decision-makers (or at least strong influencers) as to personnel.
Understand their point, except that's not what is happening.
The GM is driving the ship on player evals/acquisition.
Correct. This is (mostly) a Gettleman problem.
this is so wrong it's stunning. Parcells left because he wanted to have GM responsibilites which belonged to George Young and George Young only at that time. Belichick never came back because GY didn't think he could be a Head Coach.
He’s our Stephen Jones. Don’t be surprised if there’s an even bigger title in store for him one day.
What happens in my experience with family run businesses that are failing is when a new outside voice comes in that voice has a lot of sway and everyone in a group setting or on a committee is supportive. But as the failing continues that person loses their juice and the family members begin to meet without them and take control of the committee decisions again.
Regardless of who the new GM will be IMO he'll have everyone's ear in the beginning. IMO Barkley was Gettleman's pick. Jones was Gettleman's pick. I'm sure the committee went along with him but he was driving the bus on those drafts. Do people really think it was a coincidence that for the first time ever Gettleman traded back in the draft? Or was the fact that after last year Joe Judge was new the franchise face of the team off the field and the place he came from is known for trading back in the draft the main influence? That's how things work. This year I would expect Judge to be happy he's still in the room if he is and the new GM to be the biggest influence.
That was a clearly an awful pick but that decision doesn't crack the top 500 in poor decisions made by this franchise.
I'm sure Chris Mara isn't helping the situation but it seems a little overblown.
Bring in the right GM. Look at Dallas, it is possible for family run businesses to get their shit together.
Yup, and by what little has been reported, Tim is actually a pretty competent guy. Maybe he can right the ship.
The site owner doesn’t, he laughs when people here say Chris is part of the problem.
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the drafts took a nosedive the day he stepped in the building.
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That was a clearly an awful pick but that decision doesn't crack the top 500 in poor decisions made by this franchise.
I'm sure Chris Mara isn't helping the situation but it seems a little overblown.
The Davis Webb example seems to be a favorite one on here with respect to the overwhelming influence Chris Mara has on the process. And I laugh every time I read that point.
Webb was ranked by our own Sy'56 as the 6th best QB in the draft that year, right behind #5 Patrick Mahomes. And guess what... Webb was the 5th QB drafted and not taken until the 3rd round. Is it just possible that Chris Mara did like Davis Webb just like maybe Reese did and some others in the office..and they put an overall grade on him that was pretty close to where other third party NFL evaluators had a similar grade? Is it possible?
This isn't exactly like taking Ryan Leaf over Peyton Manning for the #1 overall pick.
Oh, the drama...
Good luck proving it or getting them to boot a family member.
I was told 'You didn't know what you're talking about' or 'You didn't have any proof'.
If it's just a figure head position to collect a paycheck that's one thing. But when he starts to influence the draft and possibly free agent signings then we're no better off then the WFT with Snyder running the show.
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shot down as hearsay multiple times, but imo there is no need for any Mara to be employed by this team other than nepotism. If a former part of this organization is saying that Mara is involved in creating this shit show...it needs to stop and they need to be held responsible.
They own the TEAM! The Jones's are all involved in Dallas. You can argue the point all you want but it isn't nepotism, it is called ownership.
The difference is Jerry is bad but unfortunately Stephen is very good.
We can do a petition on change.org and try to get that trending on social and other platforms. Send it to the beats.
I nominate the OP or Arnie - ( New Window )
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In comment 15485017 Sean said:
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That was a clearly an awful pick but that decision doesn't crack the top 500 in poor decisions made by this franchise.
I'm sure Chris Mara isn't helping the situation but it seems a little overblown.
The Davis Webb example seems to be a favorite one on here with respect to the overwhelming influence Chris Mara has on the process. And I laugh every time I read that point.
Webb was ranked by our own Sy'56 as the 6th best QB in the draft that year, right behind #5 Patrick Mahomes. And guess what... Webb was the 5th QB drafted and not taken until the 3rd round. Is it just possible that Chris Mara did like Davis Webb just like maybe Reese did and some others in the office..and they put an overall grade on him that was pretty close to where other third party NFL evaluators had a similar grade? Is it possible?
This isn't exactly like taking Ryan Leaf over Peyton Manning for the #1 overall pick.
Oh, the drama...
I did not know that Sy is never wrong, my apologies.
That's not the point, the point was that Chris Mara was touting Webb as the heir apparent to Eli and that he could be the next great Giants QB. If they would have allowed Chris to take him earlier then the 3rd round, he would have. He was pushing for him in round 2 (we took Tomlinson).
As a matter of fact, Mara's conviction of Webb was so strong that he went to bat for him when Gettleman came in at the end of 2017. We do know what happened a few months later, Gettleman drafted a RB, passed on Nelson, Chubb and Josh Allen (Darnold too, thankfully). Webb was cut right after training camp that year which shocked BBI. Maybe Gettleman thought he had the QB of the future in Webb due to Chris' praise? Who knows.
Cronyism is much more emblematic of the Giants dysfunction imo. These are people that aren't being hired because of blood but because they have parallel thinking and philosophy to the guy ultimately calling the shots, John Mara. The only Mara that deserves criticism is John because he compulsively needs to insulate himself with like-minded people.
You beat me to it as I was writing my comments.
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John Mara will be 68. Tim McDonnell is probably the next CEO of the Giants. But I think it's probably about 10 years away if everyone stays in good health.
Yup, and by what little has been reported, Tim is actually a pretty competent guy. Maybe he can right the ship.
People said Chris was competent back when he published that scouting report and the Atlanta Falcons even tried to get him as a GM.
the only effective way is to have Antifa do it for us. You know.. burn the owner's cars in the parking lot, etc
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In comment 15485017 Sean said:
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That was a clearly an awful pick but that decision doesn't crack the top 500 in poor decisions made by this franchise.
I'm sure Chris Mara isn't helping the situation but it seems a little overblown.
The Davis Webb example seems to be a favorite one on here with respect to the overwhelming influence Chris Mara has on the process. And I laugh every time I read that point.
Webb was ranked by our own Sy'56 as the 6th best QB in the draft that year, right behind #5 Patrick Mahomes. And guess what... Webb was the 5th QB drafted and not taken until the 3rd round. Is it just possible that Chris Mara did like Davis Webb just like maybe Reese did and some others in the office..and they put an overall grade on him that was pretty close to where other third party NFL evaluators had a similar grade? Is it possible?
This isn't exactly like taking Ryan Leaf over Peyton Manning for the #1 overall pick.
Oh, the drama...
you are completely missing the point.
The problem is we have someone in the personnel office with great influence that can never be fired due to performance. Unless a huge stink is made.
Even if he is fairly competent, they aren't operating with a single vision pulling in the same direction. Its a recipe for mediocrity at best.
Good luck proving it or getting them to boot a family member.
This.
To those who say it's all Gettleman, I then ask whether C. Mara's and McDonnell's jobs are figurehead or no-show jobs, in which case that's a different problem. Best I can tell it's by committee, and the committee isn't doing a good job. But as Jon says, good luck getting them to boot a family member. I think the best we can hope for is that they hire a strong and capable GM *and* give him more authority.
To those who say it's all Gettleman, I then ask whether C. Mara's and McDonnell's jobs are figurehead or no-show jobs, in which case that's a different problem.
I said this over a week ago. They are NOT FIGUREHEADS or NO SHOW JOBS. Otherwise, they could be given jobs in the marketing department at a high salary where NOBODY would give a shit. There would be no reason to put them in roles that would come with scrutiny (ie player personnel) if they truly were not making decisions.
So, they put them in these roles and do their best to make sure their involvement is not very public. This could also be why it took so long to fire Reese... knowing there were other fingerprints at the crime scene.
The Davis Webb example seems to be a favorite one on here with respect to the overwhelming influence Chris Mara has on the process. And I laugh every time I read that point.
Webb was ranked by our own Sy'56 as the 6th best QB in the draft that year, right behind #5 Patrick Mahomes. And guess what... Webb was the 5th QB drafted and not taken until the 3rd round. Is it just possible that Chris Mara did like Davis Webb just like maybe Reese did and some others in the office..and they put an overall grade on him that was pretty close to where other third party NFL evaluators had a similar grade? Is it possible?
This isn't exactly like taking Ryan Leaf over Peyton Manning for the #1 overall pick.
Oh, the drama...
I did not know that Sy is never wrong, my apologies.
That's not the point, the point was that Chris Mara was touting Webb as the heir apparent to Eli and that he could be the next great Giants QB. If they would have allowed Chris to take him earlier then the 3rd round, he would have. He was pushing for him in round 2 (we took Tomlinson).
As a matter of fact, Mara's conviction of Webb was so strong that he went to bat for him when Gettleman came in at the end of 2017. We do know what happened a few months later, Gettleman drafted a RB, passed on Nelson, Chubb and Josh Allen (Darnold too, thankfully). Webb was cut right after training camp that year which shocked BBI. Maybe Gettleman thought he had the QB of the future in Webb due to Chris' praise? Who knows.
Nothing to do with Sy being right or wrong, just setting the stage that Webb was a QB likely to be picked in the first several rounds of the draft. So Mara and/or the NYG liking him too is not a shocker especially since the wnet public about probably picking a QB that year.
Also, saying Webb could be Eli's successor after he was just picked in the 3rd round isn't exactly earth-shattering. He's the likely backup, who else would be at that point?
As to the rest of your extrapolating, you're just making it up as you go along...
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In comment 15485143 TyreeHelmet said:
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In comment 15485017 Sean said:
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That was a clearly an awful pick but that decision doesn't crack the top 500 in poor decisions made by this franchise.
I'm sure Chris Mara isn't helping the situation but it seems a little overblown.
The Davis Webb example seems to be a favorite one on here with respect to the overwhelming influence Chris Mara has on the process. And I laugh every time I read that point.
Webb was ranked by our own Sy'56 as the 6th best QB in the draft that year, right behind #5 Patrick Mahomes. And guess what... Webb was the 5th QB drafted and not taken until the 3rd round. Is it just possible that Chris Mara did like Davis Webb just like maybe Reese did and some others in the office..and they put an overall grade on him that was pretty close to where other third party NFL evaluators had a similar grade? Is it possible?
This isn't exactly like taking Ryan Leaf over Peyton Manning for the #1 overall pick.
Oh, the drama...
I did not know that Sy is never wrong, my apologies.
That's not the point, the point was that Chris Mara was touting Webb as the heir apparent to Eli and that he could be the next great Giants QB. If they would have allowed Chris to take him earlier then the 3rd round, he would have. He was pushing for him in round 2 (we took Tomlinson).
As a matter of fact, Mara's conviction of Webb was so strong that he went to bat for him when Gettleman came in at the end of 2017. We do know what happened a few months later, Gettleman drafted a RB, passed on Nelson, Chubb and Josh Allen (Darnold too, thankfully). Webb was cut right after training camp that year which shocked BBI. Maybe Gettleman thought he had the QB of the future in Webb due to Chris' praise? Who knows.
How do you know all this...?
Coughlin
McAdoo
Shurmur
Heck even Gettleman since it looks like he'll be hung soon...
Would just come out and expose this whole situation?
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Everyone on here realizes Chris Mara is a huge part of the problem, but calling WFAN isn’t going to make Mara fire his brother.
*hangs up phone*
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Maybe WFAN can get "Captain Tuttle" Chris Mara on? Not.
That's where people have to realize it's a spot for entertainment and re-evaluate their priorities
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In comment 15485189 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 15485143 TyreeHelmet said:
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In comment 15485017 Sean said:
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.
That was a clearly an awful pick but that decision doesn't crack the top 500 in poor decisions made by this franchise.
I'm sure Chris Mara isn't helping the situation but it seems a little overblown.
The Davis Webb example seems to be a favorite one on here with respect to the overwhelming influence Chris Mara has on the process. And I laugh every time I read that point.
Webb was ranked by our own Sy'56 as the 6th best QB in the draft that year, right behind #5 Patrick Mahomes. And guess what... Webb was the 5th QB drafted and not taken until the 3rd round. Is it just possible that Chris Mara did like Davis Webb just like maybe Reese did and some others in the office..and they put an overall grade on him that was pretty close to where other third party NFL evaluators had a similar grade? Is it possible?
This isn't exactly like taking Ryan Leaf over Peyton Manning for the #1 overall pick.
Oh, the drama...
I did not know that Sy is never wrong, my apologies.
That's not the point, the point was that Chris Mara was touting Webb as the heir apparent to Eli and that he could be the next great Giants QB. If they would have allowed Chris to take him earlier then the 3rd round, he would have. He was pushing for him in round 2 (we took Tomlinson).
As a matter of fact, Mara's conviction of Webb was so strong that he went to bat for him when Gettleman came in at the end of 2017. We do know what happened a few months later, Gettleman drafted a RB, passed on Nelson, Chubb and Josh Allen (Darnold too, thankfully). Webb was cut right after training camp that year which shocked BBI. Maybe Gettleman thought he had the QB of the future in Webb due to Chris' praise? Who knows.
How do you know all this...?
My father is friends with a former Giants employee that dealt with mostly one area of the country
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their talent evaluation and personnel decisions began to decline in 2011 when he stepped into this leadership role.
Good luck proving it or getting them to boot a family member.
This.
To those who say it's all Gettleman, I then ask whether C. Mara's and McDonnell's jobs are figurehead or no-show jobs, in which case that's a different problem. Best I can tell it's by committee, and the committee isn't doing a good job. But as Jon says, good luck getting them to boot a family member. I think the best we can hope for is that they hire a strong and capable GM *and* give him more authority.
Yes, a committee of a few guys but the GM drives.
No, they aren't doing a good job especially the guy driving.
A GM that is a strong talent evaluator and runs a good process will do fine. And he doesn't need any more authority than already given.
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In comment 15485197 JonC said:
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their talent evaluation and personnel decisions began to decline in 2011 when he stepped into this leadership role.
Good luck proving it or getting them to boot a family member.
This.
To those who say it's all Gettleman, I then ask whether C. Mara's and McDonnell's jobs are figurehead or no-show jobs, in which case that's a different problem. Best I can tell it's by committee, and the committee isn't doing a good job. But as Jon says, good luck getting them to boot a family member. I think the best we can hope for is that they hire a strong and capable GM *and* give him more authority.
Yes, a committee of a few guys but the GM drives.
No, they aren't doing a good job especially the guy driving.
A GM that is a strong talent evaluator and runs a good process will do fine. And he doesn't need any more authority than already given.
what strong GM candidate is coming here when he has to share the role with untouchable guys?
How does he become a stronger voice than the maras before his guys hit the field, thus cutting them out of the loop? Its impossible
That actually did happen on the '86 team, as one of the Rooneys was on staff.
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In comment 15485197 JonC said:
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their talent evaluation and personnel decisions began to decline in 2011 when he stepped into this leadership role.
Good luck proving it or getting them to boot a family member.
This.
To those who say it's all Gettleman, I then ask whether C. Mara's and McDonnell's jobs are figurehead or no-show jobs, in which case that's a different problem. Best I can tell it's by committee, and the committee isn't doing a good job. But as Jon says, good luck getting them to boot a family member. I think the best we can hope for is that they hire a strong and capable GM *and* give him more authority.
Yes, a committee of a few guys but the GM drives.
No, they aren't doing a good job especially the guy driving.
A GM that is a strong talent evaluator and runs a good process will do fine. And he doesn't need any more authority than already given.
The problem is, any GM relies on scouting reports. And the scouts report to Chris Mara, not the GM.
stop looking for things to blame to maybe almost feel better about things.
the GM sucks- his signings suck- his drafts are pretty meh-- and his hirings suck.
period- end of story. everything else is whatever.
now if you want to blame the hiring of gettleman on the maras.... then that i am perfectly happy to jump on board with-- the process and hiring was pathetic- and they need to get outside the comfort zone, and remove themselves from the next gm process... will they? ehhh doubtful.
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their talent evaluation and personnel decisions began to decline in 2011 when he stepped into this leadership role.
Good luck proving it or getting them to boot a family member.
This.
To those who say it's all Gettleman, I then ask whether C. Mara's and McDonnell's jobs are figurehead or no-show jobs, in which case that's a different problem. Best I can tell it's by committee, and the committee isn't doing a good job. But as Jon says, good luck getting them to boot a family member. I think the best we can hope for is that they hire a strong and capable GM *and* give him more authority.
The problem with this argument is first, it goes against what the Giants have on their own website. The second is Chris Mara and Tim McDonnell get paychecks even if they have no position - like all the other Mara descendants. They are owners. They have the positions because they WANT TO WORK IN PERSONNEL. This isn't rocket science.
stop looking for things to blame to maybe almost feel better about things.
the GM sucks- his signings suck- his drafts are pretty meh-- and his hirings suck.
period- end of story. everything else is whatever.
now if you want to blame the hiring of gettleman on the maras.... then that i am perfectly happy to jump on board with-- the process and hiring was pathetic- and they need to get outside the comfort zone, and remove themselves from the next gm process... will they? ehhh doubtful.
no one is defending DG or saying he should keep his job
But to say everything else is "whatever" (not even sure what that means) is bullshit. It certainly isn't "whatever"
What role is he sharing?
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Dave Gettleman runs the personnel--- not someone who is not named the GM.
stop looking for things to blame to maybe almost feel better about things.
the GM sucks- his signings suck- his drafts are pretty meh-- and his hirings suck.
period- end of story. everything else is whatever.
now if you want to blame the hiring of gettleman on the maras.... then that i am perfectly happy to jump on board with-- the process and hiring was pathetic- and they need to get outside the comfort zone, and remove themselves from the next gm process... will they? ehhh doubtful.
no one is defending DG or saying he should keep his job
But to say everything else is "whatever" (not even sure what that means) is bullshit. It certainly isn't "whatever"
Chris Mara has been high on some big hits.... and high on some misses... just like most scouts and personnel people.
the GM owns the process- the final pick- and the structure of cap and players.
do you know the guys he was high on? the good ones? the ones that helped win SBs? do you know outside of davis fking webb... who he was high on that didnt work out (a 3rd rounder at that)
waste of time- fid the gm higher- and u fix the team.
lol
What role is he sharing?
"Some might view the Giants as having three GMs: the Mara brothers and Gettleman. "
Its probably up to 4 now with Nephew Timmy climbing the ranks
Yes this quote gets posted a lot - but until someone else posts a source saying the Maras are hands off, I'll trust this source.
Link - ( New Window )
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In comment 15485280 Del Shofner said:
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In comment 15485197 JonC said:
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their talent evaluation and personnel decisions began to decline in 2011 when he stepped into this leadership role.
Good luck proving it or getting them to boot a family member.
This.
To those who say it's all Gettleman, I then ask whether C. Mara's and McDonnell's jobs are figurehead or no-show jobs, in which case that's a different problem. Best I can tell it's by committee, and the committee isn't doing a good job. But as Jon says, good luck getting them to boot a family member. I think the best we can hope for is that they hire a strong and capable GM *and* give him more authority.
Yes, a committee of a few guys but the GM drives.
No, they aren't doing a good job especially the guy driving.
A GM that is a strong talent evaluator and runs a good process will do fine. And he doesn't need any more authority than already given.
The problem is, any GM relies on scouting reports. And the scouts report to Chris Mara, not the GM.
The scouts report to Chris Pettit, Director of College Scouting.
The same Chris Pettit who has come out in front of the media, sat next to Gettleman and discussed their process.
not Chris Mara...
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In comment 15485534 hitdog42 said:
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Dave Gettleman runs the personnel--- not someone who is not named the GM.
stop looking for things to blame to maybe almost feel better about things.
the GM sucks- his signings suck- his drafts are pretty meh-- and his hirings suck.
period- end of story. everything else is whatever.
now if you want to blame the hiring of gettleman on the maras.... then that i am perfectly happy to jump on board with-- the process and hiring was pathetic- and they need to get outside the comfort zone, and remove themselves from the next gm process... will they? ehhh doubtful.
no one is defending DG or saying he should keep his job
But to say everything else is "whatever" (not even sure what that means) is bullshit. It certainly isn't "whatever"
Chris Mara has been high on some big hits.... and high on some misses... just like most scouts and personnel people.
the GM owns the process- the final pick- and the structure of cap and players.
do you know the guys he was high on? the good ones? the ones that helped win SBs? do you know outside of davis fking webb... who he was high on that didnt work out (a 3rd rounder at that)
waste of time- fid the gm higher- and u fix the team.
why don't you educate us mr insider...
Seriously, not being snarky. What good picks was he behind?
I remember when Kate brought Ahmad Bradshaw to his attention, what other anecdotes are out there?
He's in the band, but his mic and keyboards aren't plugged in.
I've heard enough from Accorsi over the years that the GM has immense decision making powers.
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The GM puts together the process of building the roster and the new additions each year in free agency and draft. He is the one driving and garnering input along the way, probably more from some.
What role is he sharing?
"Some might view the Giants as having three GMs: the Mara brothers and Gettleman. "
Its probably up to 4 now with Nephew Timmy climbing the ranks
Yes this quote gets posted a lot - but until someone else posts a source saying the Maras are hands off, I'll trust this source. Link - ( New Window )
They have one GM. The Mara's are Front Office people too and get involved, no one is disputing it. They are in the car...listening to the process and the recommendations, and probably providing some feedback and input.
But the GM is driving.
Find a better driver and things will work out...
He's in the band, but his mic and keyboards aren't plugged in.
I've heard enough from Accorsi over the years that the GM has immense decision making powers.
What constitutes actual evidence?
You need a video of him phoning in the pick to the league?
Did anyone ever lose sleep over the Maras interfering when Reese and Coughlin were running things?
So then my advice is find a new team to root for, or live with it.
And I will go on thinking you are wrong, and that a competent GM that is a good evaluator of talent will ultimately fix this team...
Did anyone ever lose sleep over the Maras interfering when Reese and Coughlin were running things?
If You’re willing to go back a little further in time, yes people were very worried.
In fact one brother had to wrestle personal management away from the other brother.
If You’re willing to go back a little further in time, yes people were very worried.
In fact one brother had to wrestle personal management away from the other brother.
I don’t think the Maras and Tisch are in a power struggle — they seem all relatively on the same page.
As was with Young, Accorsi, and early Reese - when the GMs do well we don’t hear much about interference.
So then my advice is find a new team to root for, or live with it.
And I will go on thinking you are wrong, and that a competent GM that is a good evaluator of talent will ultimately fix this team...
What if they hire an unqualified insider like Abrams? Will that change your thinking at all?
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Did anyone ever lose sleep over the Maras interfering when Reese and Coughlin were running things?
If You’re willing to go back a little further in time, yes people were very worried.
In fact one brother had to wrestle personal management away from the other brother.
I don’t think the Maras and Tisch are in a power struggle — they seem all relatively on the same page.
As was with Young, Accorsi, and early Reese - when the GMs do well we don’t hear much about interference.
Sounds like Tish forced the Shurmur firing. He seems to be stepping in more and more as the team performs worse and worse.
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In comment 15485516 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 15485280 Del Shofner said:
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In comment 15485197 JonC said:
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their talent evaluation and personnel decisions began to decline in 2011 when he stepped into this leadership role.
Good luck proving it or getting them to boot a family member.
This.
To those who say it's all Gettleman, I then ask whether C. Mara's and McDonnell's jobs are figurehead or no-show jobs, in which case that's a different problem. Best I can tell it's by committee, and the committee isn't doing a good job. But as Jon says, good luck getting them to boot a family member. I think the best we can hope for is that they hire a strong and capable GM *and* give him more authority.
Yes, a committee of a few guys but the GM drives.
No, they aren't doing a good job especially the guy driving.
A GM that is a strong talent evaluator and runs a good process will do fine. And he doesn't need any more authority than already given.
The problem is, any GM relies on scouting reports. And the scouts report to Chris Mara, not the GM.
The scouts report to Chris Pettit, Director of College Scouting.
The same Chris Pettit who has come out in front of the media, sat next to Gettleman and discussed their process.
not Chris Mara...
Who smiles for the camera is one thing, but the Giants website has Chris Mara at the top of the scouting section, not Pettit (or Gettleman).
Did anyone ever lose sleep over the Maras interfering when Reese and Coughlin were running things?
I'd posit the Maras weren't really interfering with things to a detrimental extent until 2012.
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Some of you have convinced yourselves that the NY Giant GM job is just some puppet for the Mara family, and that he doesn't have enough authority in his role. And that the real decisions are made by incompetent family members that aren't going anywhere, anytime soon.
So then my advice is find a new team to root for, or live with it.
And I will go on thinking you are wrong, and that a competent GM that is a good evaluator of talent will ultimately fix this team...
What if they hire an unqualified insider like Abrams? Will that change your thinking at all?
It won't change my view that they need a good evaluator of player talent in the GM role. Seems to me he is a flawed choice based on the poor processes/decisions that went on with the guys he worked with.
The problem is, any GM relies on scouting reports. And the scouts report to Chris Mara, not the GM.
The scouts report to Chris Pettit, Director of College Scouting.
The same Chris Pettit who has come out in front of the media, sat next to Gettleman and discussed their process.
not Chris Mara...
Who smiles for the camera is one thing, but the Giants website has Chris Mara at the top of the scouting section, not Pettit (or Gettleman).
So now Pettit is a patsy too? Just a face guy to be thrown to the media while Chris Mara develops his own scouting reports that are the "real" ones used?
man, you're killin' me Smalls...
I don't think so, but not certain.
But if you are correct and the GM is not driving, then why didn't they just hire Abrams as the GM 4 years ago versus wasting time bringing in Gettleman?
The same Gettleman who had just gotten fired from Carolina for not going along with what ownership wanted him to do because he thought it was the wrong path.
One thing is Gettleman would have known that based on his prior tenure here and relationships in/out of the building. And as mentioned, had just been fired for exercising his authority in Carolina, so now all of sudden he has a change of stripes?
Further, he is a pretty egotistical guy and always concerned about publicly defending his views and quoting his resume. So do you think he would be the guy to just "laydown" behind the scenes? Or even moreso have his personal reputation put at risk by following others advice that he disagreed with or felt were not competently thought out? Or put up with just being a weak self-servant to the Mara's while he was fighting cancer in the meanwhile?
Again, we don't have to agree but I am willing to hear more as long as you bring something compelling to the table...
For the Giants, my guess is it’s a matter of degree of involvement. I’d guess on a scale of 1-10 Gettleman started with about a 2 and probably lives with a 5.
I’d guess Reese started with a 0 and ended with a 10.
The next guy can get it down to zero if he exhibits the ability to do his job.
One thing is Gettleman would have known that based on his prior tenure here and relationships in/out of the building. And as mentioned, had just been fired for exercising his authority in Carolina, so now all of sudden he has a change of stripes?
Further, he is a pretty egotistical guy and always concerned about publicly defending his views and quoting his resume. So do you think he would be the guy to just "laydown" behind the scenes? Or even moreso have his personal reputation put at risk by following others advice that he disagreed with or felt were not competently thought out? Or put up with just being a weak self-servant to the Mara's while he was fighting cancer in the meanwhile?
Again, we don't have to agree but I am willing to hear more as long as you bring something compelling to the table...
I'm sure Gettleman had authority.
If I had to guess, I bet he was behind trading Odell after the Mara's insisted on signing him.
I think Christian is mostly right that there will always be some level of owner involvement in all pro sports. But with the current model of Chris and Tim making it their career, its impossible for it to be a zero with the Giants. I'm willing to bet Gettlemen met with both of them on all major decisions. Basically anything above in season free agent signings and practice squad moves. I doubt Tim and Chris stop showing up to work if all of a sudden the team becomes a contender.
And unless Tish forces those guys out, it will be the same with the next GM.
Davis Webb didn't pan out but I don't think that was considered to be a bad pick or reach at the time. He was a pretty well-regarded QB prospect.
The Giants as a franchise have 4 super bowls. But if we really want to take a hard look at it, the first two weren't John Mara. It was Parcells, Young, Belichick, and Taylor. John Mara wasn't running it.
John Mara didn't hire Coughlin. Perhaps he rubber stamped the decision to draft Eli Manning, but no one thinks John Mara had a heavy hand in 2004-2009. Since firing Coughlin and dumping Reese, this has been John Mara steering the ship.
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lacks true authority and is overrun by the Mara family.
One thing is Gettleman would have known that based on his prior tenure here and relationships in/out of the building. And as mentioned, had just been fired for exercising his authority in Carolina, so now all of sudden he has a change of stripes?
Further, he is a pretty egotistical guy and always concerned about publicly defending his views and quoting his resume. So do you think he would be the guy to just "laydown" behind the scenes? Or even moreso have his personal reputation put at risk by following others advice that he disagreed with or felt were not competently thought out? Or put up with just being a weak self-servant to the Mara's while he was fighting cancer in the meanwhile?
Again, we don't have to agree but I am willing to hear more as long as you bring something compelling to the table...
I'm sure Gettleman had authority.
If I had to guess, I bet he was behind trading Odell after the Mara's insisted on signing him.
I think Christian is mostly right that there will always be some level of owner involvement in all pro sports. But with the current model of Chris and Tim making it their career, its impossible for it to be a zero with the Giants. I'm willing to bet Gettlemen met with both of them on all major decisions. Basically anything above in season free agent signings and practice squad moves. I doubt Tim and Chris stop showing up to work if all of a sudden the team becomes a contender.
And unless Tish forces those guys out, it will be the same with the next GM.
Sounds generally in line.
Nobody ever suggested Chris, Tim and even John have zero involvement. And I am certain the GM has to deal talking with them all, individually and as a group, on major items (and maybe even some moderate ones). Hell, I would want that if I were them and the team has lost for this many years and the current GM isn't delivering positive change too.
But this is Gettleman's car wreck and he was behind the wheel for the last 4 years.
If Chris Mara did in fact have as much pull as everyone seems to think, he wouldn't let some new GM come in and get rid of all of "his guys"
Does he have some input? Sure. But he is not the ultimate decision maker. Far from it if I had to guess..even behind our coward of a coach Joe Judge.
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The problem is, any GM relies on scouting reports. And the scouts report to Chris Mara, not the GM.
The scouts report to Chris Pettit, Director of College Scouting.
The same Chris Pettit who has come out in front of the media, sat next to Gettleman and discussed their process.
not Chris Mara...
Who smiles for the camera is one thing, but the Giants website has Chris Mara at the top of the scouting section, not Pettit (or Gettleman).
So now Pettit is a patsy too? Just a face guy to be thrown to the media while Chris Mara develops his own scouting reports that are the "real" ones used?
man, you're killin' me Smalls...
Pettit reports to Mara. It's right there on the Giants website. So ... either we're delusional, and the GIANTS OFFICIAL WEBSITE is in on our delusion, or you're wrong. Pick one.
If Chris Mara did in fact have as much pull as everyone seems to think, he wouldn't let some new GM come in and get rid of all of "his guys"
Does he have some input? Sure. But he is not the ultimate decision maker. Far from it if I had to guess..even behind our coward of a coach Joe Judge.
There is no ultimate decider really. The Giants have said it before that they run on committee. The problem is that committee is 2 owners and a GM.
The GM is taking all the shots, all we're saying is that the owner who is in charge of personnel - according to the Giants own website - should also be held accountable.
I mean, he has a huge title, he's an owner, and he's always wanted to be an NFL personnel guy. He's also completely unaccountable and bullet proof.
Unless he does literally nothing, he certainly must disrupt the chain of command to some degree. Do we believe that he's really a subordinate to the GM? The same way he would be if he had a different last name?
This isn't some internet blame game where people are trying to deflect from Gettleman’s ineptitude. His fans either flipped or vanished. This is a legitimate inquiry into a nepostitic component of a dysfunctional organization
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In comment 15485673 FStubbs said:
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The problem is, any GM relies on scouting reports. And the scouts report to Chris Mara, not the GM.
The scouts report to Chris Pettit, Director of College Scouting.
The same Chris Pettit who has come out in front of the media, sat next to Gettleman and discussed their process.
not Chris Mara...
Who smiles for the camera is one thing, but the Giants website has Chris Mara at the top of the scouting section, not Pettit (or Gettleman).
So now Pettit is a patsy too? Just a face guy to be thrown to the media while Chris Mara develops his own scouting reports that are the "real" ones used?
man, you're killin' me Smalls...
Pettit reports to Mara. It's right there on the Giants website. So ... either we're delusional, and the GIANTS OFFICIAL WEBSITE is in on our delusion, or you're wrong. Pick one.
You can stare at that Website all day long and quote who you think directly reports to whom. It's not what I am debating.
I said Pettit is the head of scouting, he runs that process, and the scouts report to him. And that info is ultimately prepared for the GM of the NY Giants.
If Chris Mara, in his capacity, reads it as well...then fine.
Are you suggesting something else happens that is different that what I wrote?
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look at how much turnover there was in the roster when DG was hired. All of Reeses guys were gone.
If Chris Mara did in fact have as much pull as everyone seems to think, he wouldn't let some new GM come in and get rid of all of "his guys"
Does he have some input? Sure. But he is not the ultimate decision maker. Far from it if I had to guess..even behind our coward of a coach Joe Judge.
There is no ultimate decider really. The Giants have said it before that they run on committee. The problem is that committee is 2 owners and a GM.
The GM is taking all the shots, all we're saying is that the owner who is in charge of personnel - according to the Giants own website - should also be held accountable.
Held accountable...how?
If he is providing input/making decisions that he is not capable of doing, then are you expecting him to be fired and not provide the same input as an owner?
If he is providing input/making decisions that are actually beneficial or at least better than others, then don't you want him to stay as is?
If he isn't really providing input/making decisions much at all much and not a negative influence, but since he is an owner, does it matter?
Take your pick...
I mean, he has a huge title, he's an owner, and he's always wanted to be an NFL personnel guy. He's also completely unaccountable and bullet proof.
Unless he does literally nothing, he certainly must disrupt the chain of command to some degree. Do we believe that he's really a subordinate to the GM? The same way he would be if he had a different last name?
This isn't some internet blame game where people are trying to deflect from Gettleman’s ineptitude. His fans either flipped or vanished. This is a legitimate inquiry into a nepostitic component of a dysfunctional organization
Good post Jerry. That's what I've been trying to say.
I mean, he has a huge title, he's an owner, and he's always wanted to be an NFL personnel guy. He's also completely unaccountable and bullet proof.
Unless he does literally nothing, he certainly must disrupt the chain of command to some degree. Do we believe that he's really a subordinate to the GM? The same way he would be if he had a different last name?
This isn't some internet blame game where people are trying to deflect from Gettleman’s ineptitude. His fans either flipped or vanished. This is a legitimate inquiry into a nepostitic component of a dysfunctional organization
I am in the camp downplaying Chris Mara's role. Yes, he has a big title, has ownership, a desire to be a football voice, etc.
But he isn't the GM. The position recognized across the league that decides on final personnel moves, builds the roster, decides contracts, etc. So why is that?
I believe the answer is that John, for all of his faults, recognizes that having an independent, non-family GM was how the organization rose to prominence in the '80s with the hiring of Young (per Rozelle). And he's not willing to make the decision making so incestuous that a family feud could lead to 1978 all over again. Plus, I think he's the de facto "lead" owner, which gives him the gavel to cast that decision.
So I am, instead, firmly in the corner that this collapse for the last decade has been largely led by two GMs, and their staffs, who lost their fastball and can't be trusted to build a competitive team.
Only way to try and change this disaster is stop buying gear, don't go to games if you do boo anytime the mara's or Tisch's name mentioned. Call in to shows write into newspapers and why not the parking lot! Otherwise this will continue.
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maybe the Dallas model isn't the one you want to hold up as an example? Since 95 they've won 1 playoff game. Plus Jerry's son has pushed him to the side somewhat and they've been drafting very well since. Maybe the Mara's should mirror the New England model instead? I don't think any of the Kraft's are running their draft board.
See that isn't the point I am making. I am saying they OWN the team. We can argue and demand all we want but they own it.
They own an NFL franchise. So it's not quite the same as owning an independent business. The NFL should have a responsibility to the cities it has teams in.
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In comment 15484978 arniefez said:
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maybe the Dallas model isn't the one you want to hold up as an example? Since 95 they've won 1 playoff game. Plus Jerry's son has pushed him to the side somewhat and they've been drafting very well since. Maybe the Mara's should mirror the New England model instead? I don't think any of the Kraft's are running their draft board.
See that isn't the point I am making. I am saying they OWN the team. We can argue and demand all we want but they own it.
They own an NFL franchise. So it's not quite the same as owning an independent business. The NFL should have a responsibility to the cities it has teams in.
Not with this commissioner. The owners are not going to allow a precedent of the league office stepping into the operations of an owner's franchise. Goodell is the owner's bagman. He does their bidding. Goodell has firmly told the world what side he stands on. The 32 owners are his boss.