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Schwartz Article Calling out Judge's Positive Spin

Essex : 12/7/2021 10:20 am
I really thought this was a good article calling Judge out on his positive spin. In particular, Judge trying to make the Year 3 comparison of Flores to his being Year 2, which makes no sense on a million different levels--the first being, as Schwartz says, Flores won 10 games last year. Moreover, it got me thinking, that maybe Judge thinks he is in more trouble than he really is and was kind of trying to make a public case for his retaining his job. It was a lame attempt, but maybe he is feeling that pressure, which would be a good thing! Anyway, I post (and apologize if others posted this article).
Link - ( New Window )
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 12/7/2021 10:24 am : link
He is a clown. Someone called him a used car salesman...I agree.
Not a bad analogy  
Bold Ruler : Mod : 12/7/2021 10:29 am : link
.
I felt the same  
Sammo85 : 12/7/2021 10:31 am : link
I think he senses the fanbase turning on him a bit and players starting to speak out more and crank a bit in their comments.

It felt weird to me. Like saying “no matter what happens it is fair that I should get a third year”.
 
christian : 12/7/2021 10:31 am : link
Good evaluation by Schwartz.

Fans too often forget the coach and GM are speaking to the owners at press conferences.
I said yesterday  
bradshaw44 : 12/7/2021 10:33 am : link
That Judges comments made me think maybe he knows his end is near and that's why he phoned it in.
More than speaking to the  
section125 : 12/7/2021 10:36 am : link
owners is the players. He is not going to call out players at a post game presser...he chewed out one guy on the sideline earlier this year and 3/4 of BBI went ballistic. Cannot have your cake and eat it too.
I was talking about this with someone the other day...  
Drewcon40 : 12/7/2021 10:44 am : link
...as someone who longs for the Parcells-era days for the Giants. Personally, I bought into the Judge initial presser when he was hired and was happy to hear all of the "old-school" coaching philosophy promises. I find myself getting lost in YouTube with old Giants games and it's fairly obvious that the game is a different game. Can a coach like Joe Judge find success in today's NFL? I know this team lacks talent and the Barkley and Jones picks are not under Judge's time.
At least he knows  
jeff57 : 12/7/2021 10:48 am : link
To get the punter involved early.
He's definitely in hot water.  
mittenedman : 12/7/2021 11:16 am : link
Remember Shurmur's 2nd year. Coming off McAdoo disaster, the Giants still had the aura of stability and wanted nothing to do with firing another coach after 2 years. However, things got so bad during the season they had no choice.

I feel that's what's happening now with Judge. They were looking for every excuse to keep him but he's getting bent over a barrel every week, and the team has actually regressed from last year in some unexplainable ways.
I think there's a chance that Judge will be a very good HC someday  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/7/2021 11:21 am : link
But I also think he's going to need to get fired and do some soul searching to get there. He absolutely needs to grow a pair when it comes to in-game decisions, and he needs to delegate timeouts to someone else because he sucks at that element of in-game strategy.
Press conferences in general  
AcesUp : 12/7/2021 11:22 am : link
Are a waste of time. Impressive or unimpressive its all kayfabe BS. People hanging onto every word of Judge's cliche filled pressers early like he was the franchise savior or dissecting every word of these sadistic walks of shame after every loss of a season that has really been over for months.
You got guys on that Oline and at QB  
UberAlias : 12/7/2021 11:23 am : link
As starters who don't belong playing in NFL games. Coach didn't rip into them as I'm sure they're trying their best.
They're just not any good, that's obvious.
RE: Press conferences in general  
mittenedman : 12/7/2021 11:25 am : link
In comment 15485259 AcesUp said:
Quote:
Are a waste of time. Impressive or unimpressive its all kayfabe BS. People hanging onto every word of Judge's cliche filled pressers early like he was the franchise savior or dissecting every word of these sadistic walks of shame after every loss of a season that has really been over for months.


AcesUp - that kind of represents the problem with Judge, too. It sounds like he was a relatively unknown commodity who blew Mara away at an interview. He talked a big game with zero experience. Unfortunately, we see now he has absolutely nothing to back it up with. He seems lost.
I don't think Judge is a pussy  
AcesUp : 12/7/2021 11:25 am : link
Or doesn't have balls. It's philosophical, he's principled in his stupidity. He believes in his process even though absolutely nothing in the data or results support that process.
I think DG or Mara put Judge on notice during the bye week....  
EricJ : 12/7/2021 11:26 am : link
and basically said the rest of the season will decide whether you stay.

I think that is why Judge's post game press conference tone of voice was very different and why Garrett got fired after that game.

EricJ  
mittenedman : 12/7/2021 11:26 am : link
I think that's a pretty good guess.
RE: I think there's a chance that Judge will be a very good HC someday  
Sammo85 : 12/7/2021 11:57 am : link
In comment 15485258 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
But I also think he's going to need to get fired and do some soul searching to get there. He absolutely needs to grow a pair when it comes to in-game decisions, and he needs to delegate timeouts to someone else because he sucks at that element of in-game strategy.


I think it would have been beneficial to both parties for Judge to have taken the Miss. State job.
RE: RE: I think there's a chance that Judge will be a very good HC someday  
Essex : 12/7/2021 12:00 pm : link
In comment 15485315 Sammo85 said:
Quote:
In comment 15485258 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


But I also think he's going to need to get fired and do some soul searching to get there. He absolutely needs to grow a pair when it comes to in-game decisions, and he needs to delegate timeouts to someone else because he sucks at that element of in-game strategy.



I think it would have been beneficial to both parties for Judge to have taken the Miss. State job.

I am being honest, unless he goes to college and runs a really successful program, I really doubt he would get another NFL job. He goes back to being what a ST coach, who is going to give him another chance. There is always new talent in the coaching ranks and the guys who usually get second chances are coordinators who have done a good job post-firing HC gig and they convince the next team they learned why they failed in situation one. Don't really see how Judge gets back to that conversation by doing specials.
RE: I think DG or Mara put Judge on notice during the bye week....  
Sammo85 : 12/7/2021 12:04 pm : link
In comment 15485266 EricJ said:
Quote:
and basically said the rest of the season will decide whether you stay.

I think that is why Judge's post game press conference tone of voice was very different and why Garrett got fired after that game.


I doubt it was DG.
When he was interviewed, wasn't part the interview confirmation he  
GiantBlue : 12/7/2021 12:06 pm : link
could manage the game DURING the game?

How hard is it to go to YouTube and watch games from some of the best coaches on how they handled end of half and end of games?

Wouldn't that be a large part of what he would have to answer to in the interview?

What did they ask him? What's your favorite food for the buffet table in the clubhouse??????
I think he painted himself in a corner by firing Garrett  
sb from NYT Forum : 12/7/2021 12:06 pm : link
... essentially saying that Garrett was a roadblock to playmakers making plays. And now the team has scored exactly one TD since.

In other words, zero change since ditching Garrett, so he has to say that things are getting better despite the problem apparently not being solely Garrett.

And doing so makes himself look ridiculous, at least to the fans and media.
RE: I think he painted himself in a corner by firing Garrett  
Essex : 12/7/2021 12:11 pm : link
In comment 15485331 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
... essentially saying that Garrett was a roadblock to playmakers making plays. And now the team has scored exactly one TD since.

In other words, zero change since ditching Garrett, so he has to say that things are getting better despite the problem apparently not being solely Garrett.

And doing so makes himself look ridiculous, at least to the fans and media.


He will use Jones getting hurt as an excuse.
RE: When he was interviewed, wasn't part the interview confirmation he  
jeff57 : 12/7/2021 12:13 pm : link
In comment 15485328 GiantBlue said:
Quote:
could manage the game DURING the game?

How hard is it to go to YouTube and watch games from some of the best coaches on how they handled end of half and end of games?

Wouldn't that be a large part of what he would have to answer to in the interview?

What did they ask him? What's your favorite food for the buffet table in the clubhouse??????


Saban and Belichick vouched for him. That's all the Maras needed.
RE: RE: I think DG or Mara put Judge on notice during the bye week....  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/7/2021 12:20 pm : link
In comment 15485326 Sammo85 said:
Quote:
In comment 15485266 EricJ said:


Quote:


and basically said the rest of the season will decide whether you stay.

I think that is why Judge's post game press conference tone of voice was very different and why Garrett got fired after that game.




I doubt it was DG.

How could it be DG?

That's asking someone at the end of the plank to make someone else walk the plank.

DG is dead man walking, rightfully so. He has absolutely no governance of Judge at this point. Fans should consider him retired at this point, IMO, because that's going to be the first announcement after the season ends.
I think with Jones playing  
joeinpa : 12/7/2021 12:50 pm : link
They had a chance to play maybe 3-3 the last 6 games. With Fromm or Glennon it could be 0-6.

If that happens he might not be back.
In addition to talking too fast, trying to listen to JJ reminds  
NYRiese : 12/7/2021 12:54 pm : link
me of the saying

“He talks a good game”.
If  
Ron Johnson : 12/7/2021 1:03 pm : link
the Giants fire a third consecutive coach after 2 years and with this roster ..... what halfway decent coach would take the job?

You're guaranteed to fail!
RE: If  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/7/2021 1:32 pm : link
In comment 15485420 Ron Johnson said:
Quote:
the Giants fire a third consecutive coach after 2 years and with this roster ..... what halfway decent coach would take the job?

You're guaranteed to fail!

There are only 32 jobs available at any time in the NFL. And only a handful become available in any given year.

Yes, it's not a good look for the Giants to fire yet another coach after two years (and I personally think it's unlikely since they still have one more year to pay on Shurmur's contract, but neither here nor there), but it's also not a great look to lure a coach into a situation that doesn't actively reject losing.

The Giants are really fortunate to have an incredibly strong legacy and a major market to fall back on; any coach who wants to put his stamp on this franchise has a chance to be an all-time great, the way that Parcells and Coughlin are revered. It won't matter how many swing-and-miss placeholders were shown the door in the meantime.
RE: RE: If  
Ron Johnson : 12/7/2021 1:54 pm : link
In comment 15485458 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15485420 Ron Johnson said:


Quote:


the Giants fire a third consecutive coach after 2 years and with this roster ..... what halfway decent coach would take the job?

You're guaranteed to fail!


There are only 32 jobs available at any time in the NFL. And only a handful become available in any given year.

Yes, it's not a good look for the Giants to fire yet another coach after two years (and I personally think it's unlikely since they still have one more year to pay on Shurmur's contract, but neither here nor there), but it's also not a great look to lure a coach into a situation that doesn't actively reject losing.

The Giants are really fortunate to have an incredibly strong legacy and a major market to fall back on; any coach who wants to put his stamp on this franchise has a chance to be an all-time great, the way that Parcells and Coughlin are revered. It won't matter how many swing-and-miss placeholders were shown the door in the meantime.


The biggest problem is talent evaluation. If that isn’t overhauled how do you convince a prospective coach that you actively reject losing? The only message they send is “here’s one of the worst rosters in the league, you’ve 2 years to turn it around”

They’ll find someone to take the job, he just won’t be their first, or probably even 10th choice.
What would be wrong with statements like...  
D HOS : 12/7/2021 2:07 pm : link
"Obviously due to injuries, we have to play who is available. Some of these guys, they work hard and they try hard, they have valuable roles to fill, but there is a reason they haven't been starters before. We are making the best choices we can."

"While we do some good things (on offense) during the game, obviously the whole isn't good enough. We can't win with more field goals than touchdowns. We have to score more points."

"Our running backs are like everyone else, they perform well then they have a small mistake here or there, where the play doesn't go the way we planned it. Our offensive line has positive plays but when the don't, that really blows the whole thing up."

"Our defensive scheme is designed to prevent us from getting beat quickly, to prevent the game from getting too lopsided too early. If we hold them to shorter plays, more plays, there is more of a chance things can turn our way."

I mean, we already know all that, but say that rather than this baghdad bob stuff, or just don't say anything other than "we didn't play well enough" over and over.
RE: RE: RE: If  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/7/2021 2:15 pm : link
In comment 15485487 Ron Johnson said:
Quote:
In comment 15485458 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15485420 Ron Johnson said:


Quote:


the Giants fire a third consecutive coach after 2 years and with this roster ..... what halfway decent coach would take the job?

You're guaranteed to fail!


There are only 32 jobs available at any time in the NFL. And only a handful become available in any given year.

Yes, it's not a good look for the Giants to fire yet another coach after two years (and I personally think it's unlikely since they still have one more year to pay on Shurmur's contract, but neither here nor there), but it's also not a great look to lure a coach into a situation that doesn't actively reject losing.

The Giants are really fortunate to have an incredibly strong legacy and a major market to fall back on; any coach who wants to put his stamp on this franchise has a chance to be an all-time great, the way that Parcells and Coughlin are revered. It won't matter how many swing-and-miss placeholders were shown the door in the meantime.



The biggest problem is talent evaluation. If that isn’t overhauled how do you convince a prospective coach that you actively reject losing? The only message they send is “here’s one of the worst rosters in the league, you’ve 2 years to turn it around”

They’ll find someone to take the job, he just won’t be their first, or probably even 10th choice.


There hasn't been a team in the NFL that has struggled to fill a head coaching spot. Even as bad as the Browns, Jets, Bengals, Raiders, and Washington has been in our lifetimes, they have almost always gotten someone they wanted.
RE: I think he painted himself in a corner by firing Garrett  
islander1 : 12/7/2021 4:09 pm : link
In comment 15485331 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
... essentially saying that Garrett was a roadblock to playmakers making plays. And now the team has scored exactly one TD since.

In other words, zero change since ditching Garrett, so he has to say that things are getting better despite the problem apparently not being solely Garrett.

And doing so makes himself look ridiculous, at least to the fans and media.


Except he's had access to exactly zero WR since blaming Garrett. There's that.
I truly can't stand Joe Judge's in-game decisions  
Mike in Long Beach : 12/7/2021 4:14 pm : link
and at this point I want him gone almost as much as Gettleman. Having said that, Mike Glennon, bless his heart, cant' throw the football. That game was nearly unwinnable this Sunday. Some of those throws were comical, as were the way he sat in the pocket for what seemed like an eternity over and over only to take a sack. There actually were some good things in that game.
RE: RE: RE: RE: If  
FStubbs : 12/7/2021 4:24 pm : link
In comment 15485518 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 15485487 Ron Johnson said:


Quote:


In comment 15485458 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15485420 Ron Johnson said:


Quote:


the Giants fire a third consecutive coach after 2 years and with this roster ..... what halfway decent coach would take the job?

You're guaranteed to fail!


There are only 32 jobs available at any time in the NFL. And only a handful become available in any given year.

Yes, it's not a good look for the Giants to fire yet another coach after two years (and I personally think it's unlikely since they still have one more year to pay on Shurmur's contract, but neither here nor there), but it's also not a great look to lure a coach into a situation that doesn't actively reject losing.

The Giants are really fortunate to have an incredibly strong legacy and a major market to fall back on; any coach who wants to put his stamp on this franchise has a chance to be an all-time great, the way that Parcells and Coughlin are revered. It won't matter how many swing-and-miss placeholders were shown the door in the meantime.



The biggest problem is talent evaluation. If that isn’t overhauled how do you convince a prospective coach that you actively reject losing? The only message they send is “here’s one of the worst rosters in the league, you’ve 2 years to turn it around”

They’ll find someone to take the job, he just won’t be their first, or probably even 10th choice.



There hasn't been a team in the NFL that has struggled to fill a head coaching spot. Even as bad as the Browns, Jets, Bengals, Raiders, and Washington has been in our lifetimes, they have almost always gotten someone they wanted.


I remember the Al Davis Raiders having a hard time finding a head coach.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: If  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/7/2021 4:58 pm : link
In comment 15485728 FStubbs said:
Quote:
In comment 15485518 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 15485487 Ron Johnson said:


Quote:


In comment 15485458 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15485420 Ron Johnson said:


Quote:


the Giants fire a third consecutive coach after 2 years and with this roster ..... what halfway decent coach would take the job?

You're guaranteed to fail!


There are only 32 jobs available at any time in the NFL. And only a handful become available in any given year.

Yes, it's not a good look for the Giants to fire yet another coach after two years (and I personally think it's unlikely since they still have one more year to pay on Shurmur's contract, but neither here nor there), but it's also not a great look to lure a coach into a situation that doesn't actively reject losing.

The Giants are really fortunate to have an incredibly strong legacy and a major market to fall back on; any coach who wants to put his stamp on this franchise has a chance to be an all-time great, the way that Parcells and Coughlin are revered. It won't matter how many swing-and-miss placeholders were shown the door in the meantime.



The biggest problem is talent evaluation. If that isn’t overhauled how do you convince a prospective coach that you actively reject losing? The only message they send is “here’s one of the worst rosters in the league, you’ve 2 years to turn it around”

They’ll find someone to take the job, he just won’t be their first, or probably even 10th choice.



There hasn't been a team in the NFL that has struggled to fill a head coaching spot. Even as bad as the Browns, Jets, Bengals, Raiders, and Washington has been in our lifetimes, they have almost always gotten someone they wanted.



I remember the Al Davis Raiders having a hard time finding a head coach.

Who was their choice and who did they settle on?
If your team has less talent  
greatgrandpa : 12/7/2021 8:09 pm : link
You have to scheme more to protect their weaknesses. A good coach will move personnel around or jump in blitz mode and mix coverages every single play. They will get the ball to their fastest players in space as much as possible; they will show a dumb trick play but not use it; they will concentrate on positive yards on first down to keep out of third and longs; they will coach players in situational football to cut down on stupid penalties. They will use timeouts only when absolutely necessary and have a bag of 4th down plays with never or rarely seen before formations on tape for 4th and 2 when they must go for the first. If your players believe in the couch that’s half the battle then maybe a turnover or penalty on the other guys makes the difference. It can be done but not with this staff.
RE: If  
GoDeep13 : 12/8/2021 11:37 am : link
In comment 15485420 Ron Johnson said:
Quote:
the Giants fire a third consecutive coach after 2 years and with this roster ..... what halfway decent coach would take the job?

You're guaranteed to fail!
At this point it’s about admitting we were wrong about how we went about it. This was the same argument that kept Garrett here too long. If it’s not working, stop forcing it.
Judge will get a 3rd year  
uther99 : 12/8/2021 12:25 pm : link
with a new GM. I expect Jones to be here, unless his injury is career ending. New GM will be tasked to evaluate both Judge and Jones. 2022 Giants will suck
RE: If  
JohnF : 12/8/2021 12:36 pm : link
In comment 15485420 Ron Johnson said:
Quote:
the Giants fire a third consecutive coach after 2 years and with this roster ..... what halfway decent coach would take the job?

You're guaranteed to fail!


If the new coach is given REAL power to build his roster, you'd bet there would be a TON of applicants!!

The key will be the new GM. I could see Abrams being elevated to GM, but only be involved in cap/wage negotiations, while the new coach makes the final decisions on Free Agents, the Draft, and the final roster.
A new GM has to really hit it out of the park with the Draft  
NYGgolfer : 12/8/2021 12:41 pm : link
next year and infuse some talent and excitement back into this franchise. I hope they don't reach for a QB and lay it all on his shoulders but would rather find impact talent at a few other positions first. Maybe Edge or LB. Or with an exciting TE or RB after Rd 1. Something, anything.

They just feel like they are dying on the vine right now.
RE: RE: If  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/8/2021 2:03 pm : link
In comment 15486733 JohnF said:
Quote:
In comment 15485420 Ron Johnson said:


Quote:


the Giants fire a third consecutive coach after 2 years and with this roster ..... what halfway decent coach would take the job?

You're guaranteed to fail!



If the new coach is given REAL power to build his roster, you'd bet there would be a TON of applicants!!

The key will be the new GM. I could see Abrams being elevated to GM, but only be involved in cap/wage negotiations, while the new coach makes the final decisions on Free Agents, the Draft, and the final roster.

Look at our current cap situation. We're restructuring guys who might never see the field again. We did the same thing last year. Look at next year's cap scenario - it's dismal. We dealt with similar cap pain at certain points during Reese's GM tenure. Even if you want to suggest that the GM dictates signings to Abrams (and I'll totally accept that), at some point, Abrams is derelict in his duties if he doesn't stop the madness before it occurs.

Why anyone would want to allow Abrams to manage the cap unchecked is unclear to me.
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