We are looking at another 2-3 year rebuild at minimum

In comment 15485249 eric2425ny said:

Quote:

In comment 15485238 Producer said: Quote: We have seen quick turnarounds by inferior teams. It doesn't mean we will manage a very quick turnaround but it something every NFL team has a responsibility to their fans to try. This idea that we can't build without have an amazing OL first is insanity. A lot of good teams have problematic OLs. It doesn't take much to be competitive. The first thing you have to acknowledge, the most important thing to acknowledge in fact, is when you don't have a QB. We spent years trying to *evaluate* Jones. What a fucking sinkhole that became. The top brass couldn't be honest with themselves and say it was a botched pick, so we tripled down on him and brought in no real competition. If you want to know the main reason the Giants stink, it's the culture that says we can't be honest about our players because we would look bad if we admitted we botched the pick, or too limited to do something daring like draft Herbert too. I don’t totally disagree with you, but most teams give a highly drafted QB at least 3 years before moving on. Unless they are a total bust like Haskins or Russell. I am not sold on Jones at all, but he has been really tough to evaluate between constant injuries to the skill position players, a horrendous line, etc. I can’t really fault the organization for not giving up on him sooner because if he did turn the corner we would have burned draft resources on a backup QB.

I mean we get it, pounce on Jones and deservedly so.

But a QB gets three year generally unless he's total slop.

And if we had a better backup in here people would be complaining we still aren't a playoff team and going to lose draft position despite winning a few more games.

In comment 15485238 Producer said:

Quote:

We have seen quick turnarounds by inferior teams. It doesn't mean we will manage a very quick turnaround but it something every NFL team has a responsibility to their fans to try. This idea that we can't build without have an amazing OL first is insanity. A lot of good teams have problematic OLs. It doesn't take much to be competitive. The first thing you have to acknowledge, the most important thing to acknowledge in fact, is when you don't have a QB. We spent years trying to *evaluate* Jones. What a fucking sinkhole that became. The top brass couldn't be honest with themselves and say it was a botched pick, so we tripled down on him and brought in no real competition. If you want to know the main reason the Giants stink, it's the culture that says we can't be honest about our players because we would look bad if we admitted we botched the pick, or too limited to do something daring like draft Herbert too.

So put a rookie QB behind this shitty line and a group of skill positions players that never can stay on the field?

Yeah that should workout great....

The team is really bad and lacks talent. The resource allocation is horrendous. We don't have a QB, any pass rush, or an OL.

There's no way to add veteran talent because Gettleman screwed the cap. Our top 7 guys, none of whom are even Pro Bowl level, let alone All-Pro, take up 60% of the cap for next year.

If we get a decent QB, we could push for 8-9 wins, if we get lucky with injuries / close games / etc.

If we actually want to build a contender, most of our vets will be out by then. So it probably makes sense to start moving them.

If we're shooting to be as good as WFT, Carolina, Atlanta and try to luck into the 7 seed, then we can do that next year. Heck, we're in that range now. If we want to be as good as Dallas, let alone TB / ARZ / LAR - that will near 100% roster turnover.

In comment 15485228 Tuckrule said:

Quote:

This years draft class is critical. You have 5 picks in the top 100. You have 3 in the top 45 basically. You can turn things around quickly with a competent talent evaluator making the selections. Judge to me is a major problem. His coaching style doesn’t fit modern nfl he coaches scared and coaches not to lose the game. He’s the master of the cowardly punt

how can you say this? A RB or WR hasn't scored a TD since October...how do you watch this team and this they are close to being competitive?

In comment 15485252 BillKo said:

Quote:

In comment 15485245 Go Terps said: Quote: Cutting bait would have been forward thinking. Sure would have been. Almost no NFL would have, though. Maybe your fantasy league would, but that's a different game.

Arizona cut bait with Rosen. Now they have the best record in the league.

Let's not act like it's a crazy idea.

In comment 15485269 Jerry in_DC said:

Quote:

The team is really bad and lacks talent. The resource allocation is horrendous. We don't have a QB, any pass rush, or an OL. There's no way to add veteran talent because Gettleman screwed the cap. Our top 7 guys, none of whom are even Pro Bowl level, let alone All-Pro, take up 60% of the cap for next year. If we get a decent QB, we could push for 8-9 wins, if we get lucky with injuries / close games / etc. If we actually want to build a contender, most of our vets will be out by then. So it probably makes sense to start moving them. If we're shooting to be as good as WFT, Carolina, Atlanta and try to luck into the 7 seed, then we can do that next year. Heck, we're in that range now. If we want to be as good as Dallas, let alone TB / ARZ / LAR - that will near 100% roster turnover.

Our cap situation is in complete hell next year unless you want to start f*cking up the cap for future years by turning bad contracts worse by moving money into signing bonus.

We are also weak at all the positions that cost either high draft capital or a ton of money QB/OL/Edge. So this idea this is an easy fix is ridiculous.

It needs to be stripped down the the studs.

In comment 15485249 eric2425ny said:

Quote:

In comment 15485238 Producer said: Quote: We have seen quick turnarounds by inferior teams. It doesn't mean we will manage a very quick turnaround but it something every NFL team has a responsibility to their fans to try. This idea that we can't build without have an amazing OL first is insanity. A lot of good teams have problematic OLs. It doesn't take much to be competitive. The first thing you have to acknowledge, the most important thing to acknowledge in fact, is when you don't have a QB. We spent years trying to *evaluate* Jones. What a fucking sinkhole that became. The top brass couldn't be honest with themselves and say it was a botched pick, so we tripled down on him and brought in no real competition. If you want to know the main reason the Giants stink, it's the culture that says we can't be honest about our players because we would look bad if we admitted we botched the pick, or too limited to do something daring like draft Herbert too. I don’t totally disagree with you, but most teams give a highly drafted QB at least 3 years before moving on. Unless they are a total bust like Haskins or Russell. I am not sold on Jones at all, but he has been really tough to evaluate between constant injuries to the skill position players, a horrendous line, etc. I can’t really fault the organization for not giving up on him sooner because if he did turn the corner we would have burned draft resources on a backup QB.

In my opinion, if you are running an NFL franchise, you forget *usually*. Usually is a losers mentality. You aren't stuck with anybody because of some unwritten rule. Does Herbert have a chance to be a legend? If so, you take him, no matter what you've got. Period and end of story. 18 years later when he's wrapping up his HOF career you're not going to wonder, Jones didn't get three years, our OL wasn't ready.

Currently there are only two players on the roster that were here in 2017 (Shepard and Engram...and neither should have been on the team this year).

I'd aim for similar turnover - 100% in 3-4 years. Trade whatever you can - the guys on rookie contracts should have some value. Start there.

Being competitive doesn't really interest me unless the potential is there to be a contender. There's no point to building a roster that tops out at 9 wins and wildcard contention annually, and that's why the QB decision and finding impact players with those precious top 10 draft picks absolutely must improve.

In comment 15485285 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Currently there are only two players on the roster that were here in 2017 (Shepard and Engram...and neither should have been on the team this year). I'd aim for similar turnover - 100% in 3-4 years. Trade whatever you can - the guys on rookie contracts should have some value. Start there.

So this is weird, you think this team could be 10-7 with a much better offense (obviously) but you want to trade away the entire team.

Wouldn't it make more sense to continue to build the D while making a concerted effort to build the OL and find a QB?

What's with the complete tear down and jettisoning what could be useful players in 2022?

In comment 15485291 JonC said:

Quote:

Being competitive doesn't really interest me unless the potential is there to be a contender. There's no point to building a roster that tops out at 9 wins and wildcard contention annually, and that's why the QB decision and finding impact players with those precious top 10 draft picks absolutely must improve.

I am on board with this sentiment. I'd rather have a 4 win team that collects the resources for a chance at multiple Super Bowl titles, than a perennial 8/9 win team that caps out at the WC or Division round of the playoffs.

to move from a rebuild thread to a Barkley to a Jones thread , did it?

That said, on the string of names mentioned as trade candidates, only teams they feel are ‘close’ AND have a need for a player like Bradberry , Jackson, and any of the rest, except for Lawrence, are busted up circus dogs and carry large caps, so only those close teams with cap and a willingness to take that money on will want any of them, again except Lawrence.
A new GM might might be able to move one of the DBs, especially JB who I think is making business decisions, and Golladay, maybe even SB.

Starts with drafting good players. They also need to move on from their misses faster, and that's the GM influencing-up.

In comment 15485300 BillKo said:

Quote:

In comment 15485285 Go Terps said: Quote: Currently there are only two players on the roster that were here in 2017 (Shepard and Engram...and neither should have been on the team this year). I'd aim for similar turnover - 100% in 3-4 years. Trade whatever you can - the guys on rookie contracts should have some value. Start there. So this is weird, you think this team could be 10-7 with a much better offense (obviously) but you want to trade away the entire team. Wouldn't it make more sense to continue to build the D while making a concerted effort to build the OL and find a QB? What's with the complete tear down and jettisoning what could be useful players in 2022?

There is no making the offense much better in one offseason. It needs a complete reconstruction - one that will take place under a new GM and possibly a new coaching staff.

This is a bottom 5 NFL roster, and there is no arrow pointing up. They should strip it down for draft picks and cap space at every opportunity. I'd start with the players on rookie contracts who were drafted by this incompetent regime.

In comment 15485291 JonC said:

Quote:

Being competitive doesn't really interest me unless the potential is there to be a contender. There's no point to building a roster that tops out at 9 wins and wildcard contention annually, and that's why the QB decision and finding impact players with those precious top 10 draft picks absolutely must improve.

+2. I don't want a roster rebuild that produces 7-10 wins a year. We need to be a contender and that will require a near complete roster turnover. Players who might be part of that latter rebuild include Thomas, Toney, McKinney, Ojulari, Robinson, Love, and possibly a few others.

fix the OL and pass rush, you might see a substantial leap forward next year.

Judge is a NFL HC

And

Jones is a NFL QB

I think they can win with Jones.....as my view of him is settling in as a Kirk Cousins type....a NFL QB, nothing special but can win with a good team around him.

Judge is the bigger question mark. His game day judgement has been poor. Team does not play overly smart. I do not see multiple....nor players being.placed in best.position to be successful.

A stud Edge, a decent RT, a stud guard, a 2 way TE and a general return of the walking wounded....should deliver a winner

for a team that's been striking out at those positions for years.

In comment 15485327 JonC said:

Quote:

for a team that's been striking out at those positions for years.

We're not fixing this in one year, especially with our cap problems in 2022. The good news though is that be tight against the cap will prevent us from signing big name FAs, which in my view is the wrong way to build a team. Build through the draft. Signing big name FAs should only be done if a team needs a FA at a particular position to make themselves a SB contender. That certainly isn't us.

The kicker to all of this is, by the time they rebuild the offense to where it will be good enough to contend, the defense will be old and/or in need of beginning to replace its best players.

That's the danger with drafting for need and spending big UFA dollars. You might get really lucky and build the best team you could for that short time frame, but chances are very good you are far from building the best team possible, and one that's on a foundation/pipeline for sustained success.

This thing needs to be stripped down (again). I think closer to 4-5 years. The amount of time they’ve wasted the last 5-7 years makes it so much more depressing.

In comment 15485323 George from PA said:

Quote:

Judge is a NFL HC And Jones is a NFL QB I think they can win with Jones.....as my view of him is settling in as a Kirk Cousins type....a NFL QB, nothing special but can win with a good team around him. Judge is the bigger question mark. His game day judgement has been poor. Team does not play overly smart. I do not see multiple....nor players being.placed in best.position to be successful. A stud Edge, a decent RT, a stud guard, a 2 way TE and a general return of the walking wounded....should deliver a winner

When exactly will Jones start to play like Kirk Cousins? I'd like to know. It seems a lot of people here just throw out Kirk Cousins' name as a benchmark for Jones without thinking it through. Kirk Cousins is a very good NFL QB. I suggest you look at his stats. I agree he is not elite, but he is not that far off and has several metrics routinely in the top-10. Jones can't crack the top-20 in anything. I see no signs whatsoever that Jones will ever be as good as Kirk Cousins. Maybe we should set our sights a little lower for Jones. Let him reach Tyrod Taylor or Teddy Bridgewater status first.

This notion that *we can win with Jones* is strange to me. If you're not productive and you are not winning, what are you? You either do it or you don't in this league. And for now Jones has only failed. And let's stop saying, "one day he will be as good as a very good QB". No he probably won't.

Belichick coached the Pats to victory with the running game strategy and execution. His players are always in the right position to make a play. Not the case with the Giants. I wonder what a high caliber coaching staff could do with the existing Giants players. Are we as far off talent wise as our record indicates?

Is the assumption that there is a linear clock on "contender" status. It could be another decade before the franchise is relevant again, possibly longer. Look at teams like the Bengals, Jets, Browns, heck even the Raiders for a substantial period of time - spending year after year, decade after decade in the basement. There is no guarantee of success unless you have the proper front office, coaching staff, and qb.

In comment 15485270 mphbullet36 said:

Quote:

In comment 15485228 Tuckrule said: Quote: This years draft class is critical. You have 5 picks in the top 100. You have 3 in the top 45 basically. You can turn things around quickly with a competent talent evaluator making the selections. Judge to me is a major problem. His coaching style doesn’t fit modern nfl he coaches scared and coaches not to lose the game. He’s the master of the cowardly punt how can you say this? A RB or WR hasn't scored a TD since October...how do you watch this team and this they are close to being competitive?

Let’s review. How do teams score points? With a run game and a passing game which stems from an offensive line. If you can’t block it up your entire offense is garbage. We need to fix the line and a lot of the offense will be fixed. This team is last in rushing and near dead last in pass pro.

This defense is a very good one. Playing better ball than they did last season and is missing Blake which is huge. We need one true edge defender to pair with Ojulari, Roche and smith.

If we draft hypothetically:

Evan neal
Kenyon green
Jermaine Johnson

How different does this team look? That’s just 3 picks. We have a few more in the top 100

In comment 15485323 George from PA said:

Quote:

Judge is a NFL HC And Jones is a NFL QB I think they can win with Jones.....as my view of him is settling in as a Kirk Cousins type....a NFL QB, nothing special but can win with a good team around him. Judge is the bigger question mark. His game day judgement has been poor. Team does not play overly smart. I do not see multiple....nor players being.placed in best.position to be successful. A stud Edge, a decent RT, a stud guard, a 2 way TE and a general return of the walking wounded....should deliver a winner

There is very little evidence Jones or Judge are good let alone average in the NFL. They'll probably do the dumb thing like they have recently and keep both of them for another year. But I really don't understand how could you view either as long term solutions.

And your last sentence "A stud Edge, a decent RT, a stud guard, a 2 way TE"- aren't exactly easy to find.

I think if they get a good GM and good coach, they could be 2 seasons away. But if they keep Judge and saddle him to a new GM, they are simply adding to that rebuilding timeline.

and it seems more and more the coaching is the problem, its a combination. When you look at the Solder/Peart situation, I think thats kind of a microcosm of whats going on with the Giants. When you look at LW and then Danny Shelton...I mean there are so many questions I have about personnel decisions, both from an acquisition/GM stand point and on field, playing/Coaching stand point. Its a tear down from an off the field perspective. Get a GM with a Ravens, Steelers, Packers background. Those teams seem to know talent, and have had sustained success. I don't know WHAT coach would fit, but hopefully if they get the right GM he KNOWS what coach to get. Build the OL and get someone to rush the passer, those are the two most immediate needs. Wait for the right QB and perhaps take a flyer on a 3rd rounder or later in the next couple of years. Meantime, get a solid backup who stays healthy and compliments DJ that way. I know John Mara wants to win but he needs to find the RIGHT people to help him, not the people he's comfortable with.

Is just what Dr. Gettleman prescribed when he took over GM responsibilities. Tell me...how did that go?

In comment 15485327 JonC said:

Quote:

for a team that's been striking out at those positions for years.

correct which is why I said it probably will take 2-3 years to fully clean up the mess that the Mara's and DG are responsible for.

Unless Mara fully gives control away to a football guy, we probably are in the same mess 3-4 years from now.

Dallas Cowboys
1989: new QB, new HC, went 1-15
1990: 7-9
1991: 11-5, 2nd in NFC East, lost in the divisional round
1992: 13-3, 1st in NFC East, won the Superbowl

We need the right HC and QB and need to build the lines.

I don't know where we are on this timeline, but worst case next year is 1989. Best case it's 1991.

In comment 15485386 Tuckrule said:

Quote:

In comment 15485270 mphbullet36 said: Quote: In comment 15485228 Tuckrule said: Quote: This years draft class is critical. You have 5 picks in the top 100. You have 3 in the top 45 basically. You can turn things around quickly with a competent talent evaluator making the selections. Judge to me is a major problem. His coaching style doesn’t fit modern nfl he coaches scared and coaches not to lose the game. He’s the master of the cowardly punt how can you say this? A RB or WR hasn't scored a TD since October...how do you watch this team and this they are close to being competitive? Let’s review. How do teams score points? With a run game and a passing game which stems from an offensive line. If you can’t block it up your entire offense is garbage. We need to fix the line and a lot of the offense will be fixed. This team is last in rushing and near dead last in pass pro. This defense is a very good one. Playing better ball than they did last season and is missing Blake which is huge. We need one true edge defender to pair with Ojulari, Roche and smith. If we draft hypothetically: Evan neal Kenyon green Jermaine Johnson How different does this team look? That’s just 3 picks. We have a few more in the top 100

I agree with you TR and I understand MPH's apprehension. We've seen teams turn it around quickly and I think there is enough talent that coached correctly could turn us competitive. If you add a couple of key pieces to the OL that keeps ANY QB upright and helps the other offensive weapons. If you can put pressure on the QB you change how the other team has to play you. I think what you have to understand is we are a couple of players (and a GM and Coaching staff) away from being COMPETITIVE, not neccesarily SB worthy, but interesting games into december (and now January). I can watch and live with a team like that. Give me a progressing team and I can deal.

This is why I advocate for drafting a new QB as soon as possible. There is no "can't miss" QB. There's no way to predict it. You just have to try guys out.

If we wait, then we're just extending the next try out period for our next QB prospect.

Let's say we get a good GM and we do a really good job of building the next 2 years. Then we draft a QB. If that QB is not good, we've got a real problem. You'd give him 2 years, at least. Then you need another QB. By that time, our other guys are aging and getting expensive.

You need to be constantly trying QBs until you get one that's good.

In comment 15485444 markky said:

Quote:

Dallas Cowboys 1989: new QB, new HC, went 1-15 1990: 7-9 1991: 11-5, 2nd in NFC East, lost in the divisional round 1992: 13-3, 1st in NFC East, won the Superbowl We need the right HC and QB and need to build the lines. I don't know where we are on this timeline, but worst case next year is 1989. Best case it's 1991.

All we need to do is find some imbecile to give us a million draft picks for Hershel Walker and we should be set.

In comment 15485277 Producer said:

Quote:

In comment 15485249 eric2425ny said: Quote: In comment 15485238 Producer said: Quote: We have seen quick turnarounds by inferior teams. It doesn't mean we will manage a very quick turnaround but it something every NFL team has a responsibility to their fans to try. This idea that we can't build without have an amazing OL first is insanity. A lot of good teams have problematic OLs. It doesn't take much to be competitive. The first thing you have to acknowledge, the most important thing to acknowledge in fact, is when you don't have a QB. We spent years trying to *evaluate* Jones. What a fucking sinkhole that became. The top brass couldn't be honest with themselves and say it was a botched pick, so we tripled down on him and brought in no real competition. If you want to know the main reason the Giants stink, it's the culture that says we can't be honest about our players because we would look bad if we admitted we botched the pick, or too limited to do something daring like draft Herbert too. I don’t totally disagree with you, but most teams give a highly drafted QB at least 3 years before moving on. Unless they are a total bust like Haskins or Russell. I am not sold on Jones at all, but he has been really tough to evaluate between constant injuries to the skill position players, a horrendous line, etc. I can’t really fault the organization for not giving up on him sooner because if he did turn the corner we would have burned draft resources on a backup QB. In my opinion, if you are running an NFL franchise, you forget *usually*. Usually is a losers mentality. You aren't stuck with anybody because of some unwritten rule. Does Herbert have a chance to be a legend? If so, you take him, no matter what you've got. Period and end of story. 18 years later when he's wrapping up his HOF career you're not going to wonder, Jones didn't get three years, our OL wasn't ready.

The only flaw in your logic here is in regard to Herbert.
He wasn’t regarded as this “can’t miss QB” in the draft that year. I mean Tua went ahead of him if I remember correctly. I actually watched several of his college games and was not super impressed. It was clearly one of those cases where the supporting cast holds back the star QB.

Long story short, Herbert could have been another Jones situation based on how he looked pre-draft. How stupid would the team have looked if that happened? Once you make that investment in the early first in a QB it’s hard to cut bait after one or two years.

I don't see anyway this team is making a deep playoff run next year

best case scenario we win a playoff game in 2023 and are in competition in 2024

In comment 15485444 markky said:

Quote:

Dallas Cowboys 1989: new QB, new HC, went 1-15 1990: 7-9 1991: 11-5, 2nd in NFC East, lost in the divisional round 1992: 13-3, 1st in NFC East, won the Superbowl We need the right HC and QB and need to build the lines. I don't know where we are on this timeline, but worst case next year is 1989. Best case it's 1991.

Putting aside the million draft picks and top young players they got, are you really comparing Judge/ Jones to Aikman/ Johnson?

For me, if they hit it out of the park at the top of the draft and FA for OL and pass rush, they could be a decent team next year. First, I know that is a BIG if. Second, that if comes with it's own if as that requires both Jones and Barkley to actually perform with a decent OL.

In comment 15485273 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 15485252 BillKo said: Quote: In comment 15485245 Go Terps said: Quote: Cutting bait would have been forward thinking. Sure would have been. Almost no NFL would have, though. Maybe your fantasy league would, but that's a different game. Arizona cut bait with Rosen. Now they have the best record in the league. Let's not act like it's a crazy idea.

The Arizona situation was pretty unique. They brought in a coach after Rosen’s rookie year that ran a very specific type of offense that Rosen was not capable of running. Murray just happened to be there and the stars aligned. If Kingsbury wasn’t hired that year Rosen would have been given at least one more year under center.

In comment 15485792 eric2425ny said:

Quote:

In comment 15485273 Go Terps said: Quote: In comment 15485252 BillKo said: Quote: In comment 15485245 Go Terps said: Quote: Cutting bait would have been forward thinking. Sure would have been. Almost no NFL would have, though. Maybe your fantasy league would, but that's a different game. Arizona cut bait with Rosen. Now they have the best record in the league. Let's not act like it's a crazy idea. The Arizona situation was pretty unique. They brought in a coach after Rosen’s rookie year that ran a very specific type of offense that Rosen was not capable of running. Murray just happened to be there and the stars aligned. If Kingsbury wasn’t hired that year Rosen would have been given at least one more year under center.

So? Maybe what they did should be a norm, not an outlier.

In comment 15485263 mphbullet36 said:

Quote:

In comment 15485238 Producer said: Quote: We have seen quick turnarounds by inferior teams. It doesn't mean we will manage a very quick turnaround but it something every NFL team has a responsibility to their fans to try. This idea that we can't build without have an amazing OL first is insanity. A lot of good teams have problematic OLs. It doesn't take much to be competitive. The first thing you have to acknowledge, the most important thing to acknowledge in fact, is when you don't have a QB. We spent years trying to *evaluate* Jones. What a fucking sinkhole that became. The top brass couldn't be honest with themselves and say it was a botched pick, so we tripled down on him and brought in no real competition. If you want to know the main reason the Giants stink, it's the culture that says we can't be honest about our players because we would look bad if we admitted we botched the pick, or too limited to do something daring like draft Herbert too. So put a rookie QB behind this shitty line and a group of skill positions players that never can stay on the field? Yeah that should workout great....

+1. That's my thinking also, not that it matters.

for the Giants to cut bait on Jones after 1 year. He was decent enough as a rookie and Herbert had some questions. If it was for a Lawrence level prospect, yeah possible. But nobody was doing that for Herbert.

2-3 years out? Just far enough out there not to be optimistic and just short enough not to be very depressing.

We have been saying 2-3 years now for almost a decade...

In comment 15485875 Jerry in_DC said:

Quote:

for the Giants to cut bait on Jones after 1 year. He was decent enough as a rookie and Herbert had some questions. If it was for a Lawrence level prospect, yeah possible. But nobody was doing that for Herbert.

Exactly. I think many fans forget how long it took Eli to round into form. Trust me, I’m not comparing Jones to Eli by any means, but Eli was not great in 2004, 2005, or 2006. He had a significantly better line, a better group of skill players, and a better defense. He turned a corner in the last 2/3 plus the playoffs obviously in 2007.

Not all QB’s enter the league and play fantastic in their first couple of years. If your litmus test is one to two seasons you’ll be drafting a lot of early round QB’s. Should the Jags dump Lawrence after this season? He has looked pretty crappy so far, but it doesn’t mean he sucks.

In comment 15485976 eric2425ny said:

Quote:

In comment 15485875 Jerry in_DC said: Quote: for the Giants to cut bait on Jones after 1 year. He was decent enough as a rookie and Herbert had some questions. If it was for a Lawrence level prospect, yeah possible. But nobody was doing that for Herbert. Exactly. I think many fans forget how long it took Eli to round into form. Trust me, I’m not comparing Jones to Eli by any means, but Eli was not great in 2004, 2005, or 2006. He had a significantly better line, a better group of skill players, and a better defense. He turned a corner in the last 2/3 plus the playoffs obviously in 2007. Not all QB’s enter the league and play fantastic in their first couple of years. If your litmus test is one to two seasons you’ll be drafting a lot of early round QB’s. Should the Jags dump Lawrence after this season? He has looked pretty crappy so far, but it doesn’t mean he sucks.

Guys like Eli, and guys like Lawrence come with a pedigree. These guys were nearly unanimous first overall pick prospects pre-draft, with tons of college tape suggesting a bright future. Jones had nowhere near that type of pedigree coming out, completely different situation evaluating prospects like Eli/Lawrence vs a guy like Jones who many scouting reports didn't like.

it can get worse or stay about the same. If they don't hit on the next GM and possibly coach (I don't know if Judge is for sure gone this season), you can move that estimate back to maybe being competitive somewhere around 2030.

In comment 15485992 ManningLobsItBurressAlone said:

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In comment 15485976 eric2425ny said: Quote: In comment 15485875 Jerry in_DC said: Quote: for the Giants to cut bait on Jones after 1 year. He was decent enough as a rookie and Herbert had some questions. If it was for a Lawrence level prospect, yeah possible. But nobody was doing that for Herbert. Exactly. I think many fans forget how long it took Eli to round into form. Trust me, I’m not comparing Jones to Eli by any means, but Eli was not great in 2004, 2005, or 2006. He had a significantly better line, a better group of skill players, and a better defense. He turned a corner in the last 2/3 plus the playoffs obviously in 2007. Not all QB’s enter the league and play fantastic in their first couple of years. If your litmus test is one to two seasons you’ll be drafting a lot of early round QB’s. Should the Jags dump Lawrence after this season? He has looked pretty crappy so far, but it doesn’t mean he sucks. Guys like Eli, and guys like Lawrence come with a pedigree. These guys were nearly unanimous first overall pick prospects pre-draft, with tons of college tape suggesting a bright future. Jones had nowhere near that type of pedigree coming out, completely different situation evaluating prospects like Eli/Lawrence vs a guy like Jones who many scouting reports didn't like.

As I said in my post, not comparing Jones to Eli by any means. If you read some of the comments above posters believe you should just dump a QB after a year or two if you don’t like the early results. Eli is just an example of a high pedigree QB that took a while to develop. It’s not uncommon. But expecting rookie QB’s to come in and look great like Herbert is unrealistic.

on the pedigree point. But it's still not realistic. If there was a regime change as after Jones rookie year, then yes. But they believed in him, he didn't completely suck asa rookie, and his off field stuff was fine. I despise Gettleman but I can't kill him for that.

In comment 15485994 eric2425ny said:

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In comment 15485992 ManningLobsItBurressAlone said: Quote: In comment 15485976 eric2425ny said: Quote: In comment 15485875 Jerry in_DC said: Quote: for the Giants to cut bait on Jones after 1 year. He was decent enough as a rookie and Herbert had some questions. If it was for a Lawrence level prospect, yeah possible. But nobody was doing that for Herbert. Exactly. I think many fans forget how long it took Eli to round into form. Trust me, I’m not comparing Jones to Eli by any means, but Eli was not great in 2004, 2005, or 2006. He had a significantly better line, a better group of skill players, and a better defense. He turned a corner in the last 2/3 plus the playoffs obviously in 2007. Not all QB’s enter the league and play fantastic in their first couple of years. If your litmus test is one to two seasons you’ll be drafting a lot of early round QB’s. Should the Jags dump Lawrence after this season? He has looked pretty crappy so far, but it doesn’t mean he sucks. Guys like Eli, and guys like Lawrence come with a pedigree. These guys were nearly unanimous first overall pick prospects pre-draft, with tons of college tape suggesting a bright future. Jones had nowhere near that type of pedigree coming out, completely different situation evaluating prospects like Eli/Lawrence vs a guy like Jones who many scouting reports didn't like. As I said in my post, not comparing Jones to Eli by any means. If you read some of the comments above posters believe you should just dump a QB after a year or two if you don’t like the early results. Eli is just an example of a high pedigree QB that took a while to develop. It’s not uncommon. But expecting rookie QB’s to come in and look great like Herbert is unrealistic.

The economics are different now with the option year and needing to be picked up after year 3. Eli signed what a 7 year rookie contract?

In today's NFL 1rd QBs are going to be getting 3 years to prove they're it. Maybe 4.

In comment 15485308 Go Terps said:

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In comment 15485300 BillKo said: Quote: In comment 15485285 Go Terps said: Quote: Currently there are only two players on the roster that were here in 2017 (Shepard and Engram...and neither should have been on the team this year). I'd aim for similar turnover - 100% in 3-4 years. Trade whatever you can - the guys on rookie contracts should have some value. Start there. So this is weird, you think this team could be 10-7 with a much better offense (obviously) but you want to trade away the entire team. Wouldn't it make more sense to continue to build the D while making a concerted effort to build the OL and find a QB? What's with the complete tear down and jettisoning what could be useful players in 2022? There is no making the offense much better in one offseason. It needs a complete reconstruction - one that will take place under a new GM and possibly a new coaching staff. This is a bottom 5 NFL roster, and there is no arrow pointing up. They should strip it down for draft picks and cap space at every opportunity. I'd start with the players on rookie contracts who were drafted by this incompetent regime.

I'd argue bottom 1 with the untradeable assets, poorly thought out roster, and horrible cap.

GoTerps - name one team that you wouldn't exchange our roster, picks, and cap situation with. I can't.

a big problem is that a needle pointing upward (not expecting miracles, just some improvement) puts us further away from top of the draft, where the best QB prospects are found. I'm not holding out hope for much of a new QB this year, so we're looking a year out for that acquisition.

An improved OL and an edge can do wonders for this team.

I don't think mass tear down/rebuild is the way to go. Draft acquisition numbers are limited, so the bulk of the rebuild would have to come in FA in that scenario. There simply isn't enough quality FA available. This is the route DG went, completely tossing all the roster in a year or two. He brought in a lot of JAGs to replace JAGs and tried to do too much, too fast, while going all in on winning with Eli, swinging for the fences way too much.

Limit this year to focusing on the draft, bring in some moderate cost lunch pail FA, and work on a rational plan for getting out of the huge contracts. Trade players in a rational fashion, not trade anyone with a pulse like DG did.

Shep needs to go. I would ride with Jones and Barkley.

This is predicated on wanting improvement in 2022. Not talking swinging for the fences. I'm not sure many of us can stomach a tank year - we can't bear a loss now when it is fully predicted/expected - so moves should be made with an eye toward gradual, sustainable, improvement. But, tankathon, blow this motherfucker beach whale to smithereens, is an option. This adds a year to a rational rebuild.