Anyone that sells Mara they can fix this earlier is just lying. For this to be fixed. They need to consult other football guys to hire the right GM. Then the GM needs to build his own coaching staff.
Then a complete roster overhaul. The only keepers I see are Thomas/McKinney and any draft selection from the past years class. Also probably Leonard Williams due to his ridiculous contract.
Gettleman has left this team with no flexibility next year. We have so much dead cap on the books we will be awful next year too. So bite the bullet clean the roster of bad contracts.
See if you can find trades for Barkley/Galladay/Shepard/Lawerence/Ryan/Bradberry/Jackson
any vet with any sort of value find a trade for more draft capital.
2022-23 season will be all development and use the draft to build out your offensive line and defense (especially guys that can get to the QB). Don't force a QB pick next year.
Let Daniel Jones play out next year. If he again doesn't show any signs we will be bad enough to select another QB in the 2023 draft but at least the rookie QB will be behind a hopefully rebuilt offensive line and we will be out of cap hell to provide the new GM and Coach to build out the roster they want.
2023-24 hopefully we start showing signs.
2024-25 is probably the first year we can realistically get back into the playoffs.
Judge to me is a major problem. His coaching style doesn’t fit modern nfl he coaches scared and coaches not to lose the game. He’s the master of the cowardly punt
Would someone trade for Barkley? Of course, but I’d be surprised if the compensation was better than a third at this point.
Shep will either restructure or most likely be a flat out cut to clear some cap space over the next few years. Seems like a nice guy and is a solid player, but just cannot stay healthy.
The QB situation is tricky. No one is really raving about any of the QB prospects this year which really sucks considering we have two top 10 picks and could easily package those to move up for the right player. Maybe the best thing to do knowing we are back in rebuild mode is to trade one of those 2022 first round picks for a 2023 first and another pick. Especially if the draft class is expected to be deeper at QB. Let Jones play out his fourth year and if by some miracle he ends up turning a corner in 2022 you have two firsts to use in other areas in 2023.
Bottom line is I don’t feel this team is in fire sale mode, but they really need to be open minded with this GM search so it’s a 2-3 year rebuild and not another decade of trash.
I've got zero problem with another rebuild as long as you see progress and see something being built with good players.
Get a new GM in here.
Get the right coaching, a little luck, and start drafting good players and you'll be competing immediately.
There's some base here to work with.
This idea that we can't build without have an amazing OL first is insanity. A lot of good teams have problematic OLs. It doesn't take much to be competitive.
The first thing you have to acknowledge, the most important thing to acknowledge in fact, is when you don't have a QB. We spent years trying to *evaluate* Jones. What a fucking sinkhole that became. The top brass couldn't be honest with themselves and say it was a botched pick, so we tripled down on him and brought in no real competition. If you want to know the main reason the Giants stink, it's the culture that says we can't be honest about our players because we would look bad if we admitted we botched the pick, or too limited to do something daring like draft Herbert too.
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Are we another 2 years from that? Season not being over by October would be a start!
I've got zero problem with another rebuild as long as you see progress and see something being built with good players.
Get a new GM in here.
Agreed, at this stage I just want to see a competitive team. As a poster noted above, a team that’s season isn’t over by early October. Our offense was ugly in the mid 90’s but we always had a really solid defense and were always knocking on the door of the playoffs. I mean you obviously want to win Super Bowls, but it’s nice to at least see a winning record for entertainment value if anything.
This idea that we can't build without have an amazing OL first is insanity. A lot of good teams have problematic OLs. It doesn't take much to be competitive.
The first thing you have to acknowledge, the most important thing to acknowledge in fact, is when you don't have a QB. We spent years trying to *evaluate* Jones. What a fucking sinkhole that became. The top brass couldn't be honest with themselves and say it was a botched pick, so we tripled down on him and brought in no real competition. If you want to know the main reason the Giants stink, it's the culture that says we can't be honest about our players because we would look bad if we admitted we botched the pick, or too limited to do something daring like draft Herbert too.
LOL, we spent years evaluating Jones?
I mean, they've probably did it the exact proper way.
Year 1 he looked like a legit prospect.
Year 2 he struggled, was that a sophomore slump or just not that good.
Year 3, here we are and the writing appears to be on the table.
What did you want, cutting bait after 2020?
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We have seen quick turnarounds by inferior teams. It doesn't mean we will manage a very quick turnaround but it something every NFL team has a responsibility to their fans to try.
This idea that we can't build without have an amazing OL first is insanity. A lot of good teams have problematic OLs. It doesn't take much to be competitive.
The first thing you have to acknowledge, the most important thing to acknowledge in fact, is when you don't have a QB. We spent years trying to *evaluate* Jones. What a fucking sinkhole that became. The top brass couldn't be honest with themselves and say it was a botched pick, so we tripled down on him and brought in no real competition. If you want to know the main reason the Giants stink, it's the culture that says we can't be honest about our players because we would look bad if we admitted we botched the pick, or too limited to do something daring like draft Herbert too.
LOL, we spent years evaluating Jones?
I mean, they've probably did it the exact proper way.
Year 1 he looked like a legit prospect.
Year 2 he struggled, was that a sophomore slump or just not that good.
Year 3, here we are and the writing appears to be on the table.
What did you want, cutting bait after 2020?
He didn't look legit in Year 1. he looked like a gigantic maybe. They could have added Herbert the next year. Are you happy they passed on Herbert?
This idea that we can't build without have an amazing OL first is insanity. A lot of good teams have problematic OLs. It doesn't take much to be competitive.
The first thing you have to acknowledge, the most important thing to acknowledge in fact, is when you don't have a QB. We spent years trying to *evaluate* Jones. What a fucking sinkhole that became. The top brass couldn't be honest with themselves and say it was a botched pick, so we tripled down on him and brought in no real competition. If you want to know the main reason the Giants stink, it's the culture that says we can't be honest about our players because we would look bad if we admitted we botched the pick, or too limited to do something daring like draft Herbert too.
I don’t totally disagree with you, but most teams give a highly drafted QB at least 3 years before moving on. Unless they are a total bust like Haskins or Russell. I am not sold on Jones at all, but he has been really tough to evaluate between constant injuries to the skill position players, a horrendous line, etc. I can’t really fault the organization for not giving up on him sooner because if he did turn the corner we would have burned draft resources on a backup QB.
Playing the Jets and Lions surely helps.
And let's not mention the Giants 2x, who they actually lost to already lol
Sure would have been.
Almost no NFL would have, though.
Maybe your fantasy league would, but that's a different game.
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We have seen quick turnarounds by inferior teams. It doesn't mean we will manage a very quick turnaround but it something every NFL team has a responsibility to their fans to try.
This idea that we can't build without have an amazing OL first is insanity. A lot of good teams have problematic OLs. It doesn't take much to be competitive.
The first thing you have to acknowledge, the most important thing to acknowledge in fact, is when you don't have a QB. We spent years trying to *evaluate* Jones. What a fucking sinkhole that became. The top brass couldn't be honest with themselves and say it was a botched pick, so we tripled down on him and brought in no real competition. If you want to know the main reason the Giants stink, it's the culture that says we can't be honest about our players because we would look bad if we admitted we botched the pick, or too limited to do something daring like draft Herbert too.
I don’t totally disagree with you, but most teams give a highly drafted QB at least 3 years before moving on. Unless they are a total bust like Haskins or Russell. I am not sold on Jones at all, but he has been really tough to evaluate between constant injuries to the skill position players, a horrendous line, etc. I can’t really fault the organization for not giving up on him sooner because if he did turn the corner we would have burned draft resources on a backup QB.
I mean we get it, pounce on Jones and deservedly so.
But a QB gets three year generally unless he's total slop.
And if we had a better backup in here people would be complaining we still aren't a playoff team and going to lose draft position despite winning a few more games.
This idea that we can't build without have an amazing OL first is insanity. A lot of good teams have problematic OLs. It doesn't take much to be competitive.
The first thing you have to acknowledge, the most important thing to acknowledge in fact, is when you don't have a QB. We spent years trying to *evaluate* Jones. What a fucking sinkhole that became. The top brass couldn't be honest with themselves and say it was a botched pick, so we tripled down on him and brought in no real competition. If you want to know the main reason the Giants stink, it's the culture that says we can't be honest about our players because we would look bad if we admitted we botched the pick, or too limited to do something daring like draft Herbert too.
So put a rookie QB behind this shitty line and a group of skill positions players that never can stay on the field?
Yeah that should workout great....
There's no way to add veteran talent because Gettleman screwed the cap. Our top 7 guys, none of whom are even Pro Bowl level, let alone All-Pro, take up 60% of the cap for next year.
If we get a decent QB, we could push for 8-9 wins, if we get lucky with injuries / close games / etc.
If we actually want to build a contender, most of our vets will be out by then. So it probably makes sense to start moving them.
If we're shooting to be as good as WFT, Carolina, Atlanta and try to luck into the 7 seed, then we can do that next year. Heck, we're in that range now. If we want to be as good as Dallas, let alone TB / ARZ / LAR - that will near 100% roster turnover.
Judge to me is a major problem. His coaching style doesn’t fit modern nfl he coaches scared and coaches not to lose the game. He’s the master of the cowardly punt
how can you say this? A RB or WR hasn't scored a TD since October...how do you watch this team and this they are close to being competitive?
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Cutting bait would have been forward thinking.
Sure would have been.
Almost no NFL would have, though.
Maybe your fantasy league would, but that's a different game.
Arizona cut bait with Rosen. Now they have the best record in the league.
Let's not act like it's a crazy idea.
There's no way to add veteran talent because Gettleman screwed the cap. Our top 7 guys, none of whom are even Pro Bowl level, let alone All-Pro, take up 60% of the cap for next year.
If we get a decent QB, we could push for 8-9 wins, if we get lucky with injuries / close games / etc.
If we actually want to build a contender, most of our vets will be out by then. So it probably makes sense to start moving them.
If we're shooting to be as good as WFT, Carolina, Atlanta and try to luck into the 7 seed, then we can do that next year. Heck, we're in that range now. If we want to be as good as Dallas, let alone TB / ARZ / LAR - that will near 100% roster turnover.
Our cap situation is in complete hell next year unless you want to start f*cking up the cap for future years by turning bad contracts worse by moving money into signing bonus.
We are also weak at all the positions that cost either high draft capital or a ton of money QB/OL/Edge. So this idea this is an easy fix is ridiculous.
It needs to be stripped down the the studs.
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We have seen quick turnarounds by inferior teams. It doesn't mean we will manage a very quick turnaround but it something every NFL team has a responsibility to their fans to try.
This idea that we can't build without have an amazing OL first is insanity. A lot of good teams have problematic OLs. It doesn't take much to be competitive.
The first thing you have to acknowledge, the most important thing to acknowledge in fact, is when you don't have a QB. We spent years trying to *evaluate* Jones. What a fucking sinkhole that became. The top brass couldn't be honest with themselves and say it was a botched pick, so we tripled down on him and brought in no real competition. If you want to know the main reason the Giants stink, it's the culture that says we can't be honest about our players because we would look bad if we admitted we botched the pick, or too limited to do something daring like draft Herbert too.
I don’t totally disagree with you, but most teams give a highly drafted QB at least 3 years before moving on. Unless they are a total bust like Haskins or Russell. I am not sold on Jones at all, but he has been really tough to evaluate between constant injuries to the skill position players, a horrendous line, etc. I can’t really fault the organization for not giving up on him sooner because if he did turn the corner we would have burned draft resources on a backup QB.
In my opinion, if you are running an NFL franchise, you forget *usually*. Usually is a losers mentality. You aren't stuck with anybody because of some unwritten rule. Does Herbert have a chance to be a legend? If so, you take him, no matter what you've got. Period and end of story. 18 years later when he's wrapping up his HOF career you're not going to wonder, Jones didn't get three years, our OL wasn't ready.
I'd aim for similar turnover - 100% in 3-4 years. Trade whatever you can - the guys on rookie contracts should have some value. Start there.
I'd aim for similar turnover - 100% in 3-4 years. Trade whatever you can - the guys on rookie contracts should have some value. Start there.
So this is weird, you think this team could be 10-7 with a much better offense (obviously) but you want to trade away the entire team.
Wouldn't it make more sense to continue to build the D while making a concerted effort to build the OL and find a QB?
What's with the complete tear down and jettisoning what could be useful players in 2022?
I am on board with this sentiment. I'd rather have a 4 win team that collects the resources for a chance at multiple Super Bowl titles, than a perennial 8/9 win team that caps out at the WC or Division round of the playoffs.
That said, on the string of names mentioned as trade candidates, only teams they feel are ‘close’ AND have a need for a player like Bradberry , Jackson, and any of the rest, except for Lawrence, are busted up circus dogs and carry large caps, so only those close teams with cap and a willingness to take that money on will want any of them, again except Lawrence.
A new GM might might be able to move one of the DBs, especially JB who I think is making business decisions, and Golladay, maybe even SB.
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Currently there are only two players on the roster that were here in 2017 (Shepard and Engram...and neither should have been on the team this year).
I'd aim for similar turnover - 100% in 3-4 years. Trade whatever you can - the guys on rookie contracts should have some value. Start there.
So this is weird, you think this team could be 10-7 with a much better offense (obviously) but you want to trade away the entire team.
Wouldn't it make more sense to continue to build the D while making a concerted effort to build the OL and find a QB?
What's with the complete tear down and jettisoning what could be useful players in 2022?
There is no making the offense much better in one offseason. It needs a complete reconstruction - one that will take place under a new GM and possibly a new coaching staff.
This is a bottom 5 NFL roster, and there is no arrow pointing up. They should strip it down for draft picks and cap space at every opportunity. I'd start with the players on rookie contracts who were drafted by this incompetent regime.
+2. I don't want a roster rebuild that produces 7-10 wins a year. We need to be a contender and that will require a near complete roster turnover. Players who might be part of that latter rebuild include Thomas, Toney, McKinney, Ojulari, Robinson, Love, and possibly a few others.
And
Jones is a NFL QB
I think they can win with Jones.....as my view of him is settling in as a Kirk Cousins type....a NFL QB, nothing special but can win with a good team around him.
Judge is the bigger question mark. His game day judgement has been poor. Team does not play overly smart. I do not see multiple....nor players being.placed in best.position to be successful.
A stud Edge, a decent RT, a stud guard, a 2 way TE and a general return of the walking wounded....should deliver a winner
We're not fixing this in one year, especially with our cap problems in 2022. The good news though is that be tight against the cap will prevent us from signing big name FAs, which in my view is the wrong way to build a team. Build through the draft. Signing big name FAs should only be done if a team needs a FA at a particular position to make themselves a SB contender. That certainly isn't us.
That's the danger with drafting for need and spending big UFA dollars. You might get really lucky and build the best team you could for that short time frame, but chances are very good you are far from building the best team possible, and one that's on a foundation/pipeline for sustained success.
And
Jones is a NFL QB
I think they can win with Jones.....as my view of him is settling in as a Kirk Cousins type....a NFL QB, nothing special but can win with a good team around him.
Judge is the bigger question mark. His game day judgement has been poor. Team does not play overly smart. I do not see multiple....nor players being.placed in best.position to be successful.
A stud Edge, a decent RT, a stud guard, a 2 way TE and a general return of the walking wounded....should deliver a winner
When exactly will Jones start to play like Kirk Cousins? I'd like to know. It seems a lot of people here just throw out Kirk Cousins' name as a benchmark for Jones without thinking it through. Kirk Cousins is a very good NFL QB. I suggest you look at his stats. I agree he is not elite, but he is not that far off and has several metrics routinely in the top-10. Jones can't crack the top-20 in anything. I see no signs whatsoever that Jones will ever be as good as Kirk Cousins. Maybe we should set our sights a little lower for Jones. Let him reach Tyrod Taylor or Teddy Bridgewater status first.
This notion that *we can win with Jones* is strange to me. If you're not productive and you are not winning, what are you? You either do it or you don't in this league. And for now Jones has only failed. And let's stop saying, "one day he will be as good as a very good QB". No he probably won't.
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This years draft class is critical. You have 5 picks in the top 100. You have 3 in the top 45 basically. You can turn things around quickly with a competent talent evaluator making the selections.
Judge to me is a major problem. His coaching style doesn’t fit modern nfl he coaches scared and coaches not to lose the game. He’s the master of the cowardly punt
how can you say this? A RB or WR hasn't scored a TD since October...how do you watch this team and this they are close to being competitive?
Let’s review. How do teams score points? With a run game and a passing game which stems from an offensive line. If you can’t block it up your entire offense is garbage. We need to fix the line and a lot of the offense will be fixed. This team is last in rushing and near dead last in pass pro.
This defense is a very good one. Playing better ball than they did last season and is missing Blake which is huge. We need one true edge defender to pair with Ojulari, Roche and smith.
If we draft hypothetically:
Evan neal
Kenyon green
Jermaine Johnson
How different does this team look? That’s just 3 picks. We have a few more in the top 100
And
Jones is a NFL QB
I think they can win with Jones.....as my view of him is settling in as a Kirk Cousins type....a NFL QB, nothing special but can win with a good team around him.
Judge is the bigger question mark. His game day judgement has been poor. Team does not play overly smart. I do not see multiple....nor players being.placed in best.position to be successful.
A stud Edge, a decent RT, a stud guard, a 2 way TE and a general return of the walking wounded....should deliver a winner
There is very little evidence Jones or Judge are good let alone average in the NFL. They'll probably do the dumb thing like they have recently and keep both of them for another year. But I really don't understand how could you view either as long term solutions.
And your last sentence "A stud Edge, a decent RT, a stud guard, a 2 way TE"- aren't exactly easy to find.
I think if they get a good GM and good coach, they could be 2 seasons away. But if they keep Judge and saddle him to a new GM, they are simply adding to that rebuilding timeline.
correct which is why I said it probably will take 2-3 years to fully clean up the mess that the Mara's and DG are responsible for.
Unless Mara fully gives control away to a football guy, we probably are in the same mess 3-4 years from now.
1989: new QB, new HC, went 1-15
1990: 7-9
1991: 11-5, 2nd in NFC East, lost in the divisional round
1992: 13-3, 1st in NFC East, won the Superbowl
We need the right HC and QB and need to build the lines.
I don't know where we are on this timeline, but worst case next year is 1989. Best case it's 1991.
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In comment 15485228 Tuckrule said:
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This years draft class is critical. You have 5 picks in the top 100. You have 3 in the top 45 basically. You can turn things around quickly with a competent talent evaluator making the selections.
Judge to me is a major problem. His coaching style doesn’t fit modern nfl he coaches scared and coaches not to lose the game. He’s the master of the cowardly punt
how can you say this? A RB or WR hasn't scored a TD since October...how do you watch this team and this they are close to being competitive?
Let’s review. How do teams score points? With a run game and a passing game which stems from an offensive line. If you can’t block it up your entire offense is garbage. We need to fix the line and a lot of the offense will be fixed. This team is last in rushing and near dead last in pass pro.
This defense is a very good one. Playing better ball than they did last season and is missing Blake which is huge. We need one true edge defender to pair with Ojulari, Roche and smith.
If we draft hypothetically:
Evan neal
Kenyon green
Jermaine Johnson
How different does this team look? That’s just 3 picks. We have a few more in the top 100
I agree with you TR and I understand MPH's apprehension. We've seen teams turn it around quickly and I think there is enough talent that coached correctly could turn us competitive. If you add a couple of key pieces to the OL that keeps ANY QB upright and helps the other offensive weapons. If you can put pressure on the QB you change how the other team has to play you. I think what you have to understand is we are a couple of players (and a GM and Coaching staff) away from being COMPETITIVE, not neccesarily SB worthy, but interesting games into december (and now January). I can watch and live with a team like that. Give me a progressing team and I can deal.
If we wait, then we're just extending the next try out period for our next QB prospect.
Let's say we get a good GM and we do a really good job of building the next 2 years. Then we draft a QB. If that QB is not good, we've got a real problem. You'd give him 2 years, at least. Then you need another QB. By that time, our other guys are aging and getting expensive.
You need to be constantly trying QBs until you get one that's good.
1989: new QB, new HC, went 1-15
1990: 7-9
1991: 11-5, 2nd in NFC East, lost in the divisional round
1992: 13-3, 1st in NFC East, won the Superbowl
We need the right HC and QB and need to build the lines.
I don't know where we are on this timeline, but worst case next year is 1989. Best case it's 1991.
All we need to do is find some imbecile to give us a million draft picks for Hershel Walker and we should be set.
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In comment 15485238 Producer said:
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We have seen quick turnarounds by inferior teams. It doesn't mean we will manage a very quick turnaround but it something every NFL team has a responsibility to their fans to try.
This idea that we can't build without have an amazing OL first is insanity. A lot of good teams have problematic OLs. It doesn't take much to be competitive.
The first thing you have to acknowledge, the most important thing to acknowledge in fact, is when you don't have a QB. We spent years trying to *evaluate* Jones. What a fucking sinkhole that became. The top brass couldn't be honest with themselves and say it was a botched pick, so we tripled down on him and brought in no real competition. If you want to know the main reason the Giants stink, it's the culture that says we can't be honest about our players because we would look bad if we admitted we botched the pick, or too limited to do something daring like draft Herbert too.
I don’t totally disagree with you, but most teams give a highly drafted QB at least 3 years before moving on. Unless they are a total bust like Haskins or Russell. I am not sold on Jones at all, but he has been really tough to evaluate between constant injuries to the skill position players, a horrendous line, etc. I can’t really fault the organization for not giving up on him sooner because if he did turn the corner we would have burned draft resources on a backup QB.
In my opinion, if you are running an NFL franchise, you forget *usually*. Usually is a losers mentality. You aren't stuck with anybody because of some unwritten rule. Does Herbert have a chance to be a legend? If so, you take him, no matter what you've got. Period and end of story. 18 years later when he's wrapping up his HOF career you're not going to wonder, Jones didn't get three years, our OL wasn't ready.
The only flaw in your logic here is in regard to Herbert.
He wasn’t regarded as this “can’t miss QB” in the draft that year. I mean Tua went ahead of him if I remember correctly. I actually watched several of his college games and was not super impressed. It was clearly one of those cases where the supporting cast holds back the star QB.
Long story short, Herbert could have been another Jones situation based on how he looked pre-draft. How stupid would the team have looked if that happened? Once you make that investment in the early first in a QB it’s hard to cut bait after one or two years.