After the TB game, most of us acknowledged that Judge had this bullet to use towards Garrett. It was a bit of a life line to use for his own job and to keep the locker room in tact. He used it mid season.
Garrett took a lot of shit here, but I’ll say his offense was better than we’ve seen the last 2 games. I understand it’s hard to have an apples to apples comparison with Jones most likely out, but there still should be SOME production.
Lastly, it’s been well documented that Garrett is close to Mara, and Garrett was likely recommended by Mara.
If this offense continues to be brutal after Garrett was scapegoated, could that be a tiebreaker against Judge in evaluating him after the year?
The more I think of this, the Garrett fire could ultimately end Judge here.
Tough to come back from that one.
Now, it appears by getting rid of Garrett and Colombo, he's kicked out 2 of the only people who knew NFL football.
Now that we have the results, you look back at some of the stuff Judge has done - like his 100 man coaching staff with 10 offensive coordinators involved in the gameplan - and you just have to shake your head. What an odd decision-making structure in both the coaching staff & front office.
If Kitchens keeps calling plays like jet sweeps and reverses, he should be gone too. Giants cannot afford self inflicted negative plays.
What influence was that? How to be a decent coach in a sea of amateur hour and either inarticulate or BS talking used car salesmen?
So we should have been awesome with Mike Glennon?
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how many times is an OC fired and the struggling offense immediately improves? Establishing new coaching principles takes time, especially when talent is lacking. No OC is fixing the OL and QB position in 2021 it was just imperative Garrett is gone so we don't go into the offseason with his influence.
What influence was that? How to be a decent coach in a sea of amateur hour and either inarticulate or BS talking used car salesmen?
Whatever you say it is.
I think the big issue is how much does Mara believe in him overall. Next year is shaping up that it may be a challenging one and then you are looking at potentially drafting a QB in the next two years. It is going to take huge belief from Mara sticking with him. I think Mara is looking at this very situation and the remaining games will help him decide.
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Blame it on injuries. Mara loves the injuries excuse
So we should have been awesome with Mike Glennon?
These are professional football players making millions of dollars being coached by professional coaches making millions of dollars. We are in an ERA of offense for the NFL. If you're good with 9 points, than good for you.
Last Year Glennon played in 5 games for the Jaguars, Point Totals were:
25
24
10
17
14
Averaged 18 points a game
Dumping Garrett was the right move. There were far too many bad plays called when they were inside the red zone, too many self defeating plays. So far Kitchens has not done any better. Yes the line is bad. Yes far too many injuries.
1) Short passes to Barkley in open space
2) Force feeding the ball to Golladay
Neither is working. This has exposed the flawed foundation of Giants expensive, highly touted skill players. The offense is f*****d at all levels.
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In comment 15486283 BeckShepEli said:
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Blame it on injuries. Mara loves the injuries excuse
So we should have been awesome with Mike Glennon?
These are professional football players making millions of dollars being coached by professional coaches making millions of dollars. We are in an ERA of offense for the NFL. If you're good with 9 points, than good for you.
Last Year Glennon played in 5 games for the Jaguars, Point Totals were:
25
24
10
17
14
Averaged 18 points a game
Which still sucks.
I'm not excusing 9 points, its awful. But injuries actually matter regardless of whether or not you or anyone else want to hear about it. And they have a bigger impact on teams like our where talent is lacking.
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Dumping Garrett was the right move. There were far too many bad plays called when they were inside the red zone, too many self defeating plays. So far Kitchens has not done any better. Yes the line is bad. Yes far too many injuries.
Didn’t say it wasn’t. Said it wasn’t going to matter and it hasn’t and it won’t.
Doesn't take a a brilliant person to see what's going on with him. He isn't the only problem but he sure was one of them.
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Dumping Garrett was the right move. There were far too many bad plays called when they were inside the red zone, too many self defeating plays. So far Kitchens has not done any better. Yes the line is bad. Yes far too many injuries.
Didn’t say it wasn’t. Said it wasn’t going to matter and it hasn’t and it won’t.
At this point in time, no it does not matter. But the design of plays was his and will continue to plague them for the rest of the year - though at this point it works in their favor regarding the draft.
Also, there seem to be hints that there are a lot of "behind the scenes" things Judge is doing that Mara loves. My gut would say that Mara allowing him to fire Garrett, who Mara was very high on, more than likely should be taken as a vote of confidence in Judge.
Judge will be able to make the excuse that with the personnel issues and the lack of a QB, it was too much of an obstacle to overcome. Heck, that might even be true.
I think the question will be what will the Giants do for an OC in the offseason. I think Mara will be hesitant to force another OC on Judge, but will Judge be self aware enough to know he needs an OC who can completely change the offense?
Also, there seem to be hints that there are a lot of "behind the scenes" things Judge is doing that Mara loves. My gut would say that Mara allowing him to fire Garrett, who Mara was very high on, more than likely should be taken as a vote of confidence in Judge.
There's a lot of smoke to that possibly, but which also highlights how dysfunctional this team has become organizationally with Mara as owner.
Nothing under Mara's tenure gives me confidence he can make the right analysis and decisions. I find his logic and thinking flawed, which leads to constant misfires and an executive mess.
Most of BBI wanted Garrett's ass out weeks ago, some after last season, and now this is a "poorly timed fire"? Having Garrett here a day longer was worse for the team period. Removing him is a positive, and I would argue Judge kept him here too long.
The results have not beared fruit but what did we see Sunday?
* Several deep shots
* Throws past the sticks on 3rd downs (what a concept!)
* End zone shots in and around the red zone
* Moving Barkley all over the field and attempting to isolate him in space
* Game planning touches for Barkley and Golladay
These are all things we were screaming for two years.
But all I hear is Joe Judge is an idiot and cannot game plan.
Maybe the players are god fucking awful and cannot execute. That's what I'm seeing.
Why not wait till the end of the season and say we are going in a new direction?
The fact is you hate Garrett. I do not like him either. I would say Garrett is not even top 6 things wrong with this team. But it's kinda weird this sense of urgency to jettison him.
Face it you thought firing Garrett would result in Jones being more like mythological rookie season Jones and he would throw 4 TDs in a game. We quickly leaned throwing TDs in games that are actually competitive is a lot different than doing it in garbage time.
Pretty clear by now that his success in Dallas (if you want to call it that) was dictated by the OL, something we had the polar opposite of. Maybe that's unfair to him, but it is what it is. He wasn't making it work and after all the talent we added on offense this year you can argue we regressed on offense if that's even possible. He had to go, plain and simple.
The new offense won't really be implemented until next year.
Judge has been in job now effectively two seasons. He's had a say in the players that make up a good chunk of roster (either acquiring or keeping) and decides the philosophy and style of gameplanning the coordinators run. He can't get a pass on that and just punting year to year (oh, we'll get a new OC, then next offseason, oh, we'll let him choose his new QB and RB).
Why not wait till the end of the season and say we are going in a new direction?
The fact is you hate Garrett. I do not like him either. I would say Garrett is not even top 6 things wrong with this team. But it's kinda weird this sense of urgency to jettison him.
Face it you thought firing Garrett would result in Jones being more like mythological rookie season Jones and he would throw 4 TDs in a game. We quickly leaned throwing TDs in games that are actually competitive is a lot different than doing it in garbage time.
Good point. Same people calling for Gettleman to be fired mid-season. Why? Just to "feel better"?
Let this staff figure it out. At the end of the season, no excuses, make staffing decisions and move forward for 2022.
Mid-year firings should be for losing the team or criminal like behavior not just sucking. We've been bad for 10 years now.
Why not wait till the end of the season and say we are going in a new direction?
The fact is you hate Garrett. I do not like him either. I would say Garrett is not even top 6 things wrong with this team. But it's kinda weird this sense of urgency to jettison him.
Face it you thought firing Garrett would result in Jones being more like mythological rookie season Jones and he would throw 4 TDs in a game. We quickly leaned throwing TDs in games that are actually competitive is a lot different than doing it in garbage time.
It's not about hating Garrett it's that he and the HC do not seem on the same page.
But to me the major part is if Judge/Kitchens are now allowed to run different concepts (like throw past the sticks), then you are able to evaluate whether it was more scheme or players holding this offense back.
To me the fact this offense doesn't work despite altering some of the concepts is a clear indictment of the talent. They cannot execute no matter what the offense is...
Exposing the players is a good thing.
Maybe the Mara's need to see the failed A / B tests for themself to show how badly they have blundered the personnel of this team.
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Blame it on injuries. Mara loves the injuries excuse
So we should have been awesome with Mike Glennon?
No you shoul dhave been with Jones in the Philly game. instead we saw a stagnant offense and more FGs and no TDs and no real big plays from Jones.
They're going to do their absolute best to blame this season on injuries. Hell, maybe Mara even decides it's best to do that and align with Judge just to try and get through this wall of little progress they're stuck behind, while bringing in a new GM to work on a top-down design and plan, including cap purge and piling up draft assets.
“Garrett didn’t need to here any more”
First what page is that? Judge has never even been an oc and has no hc experience. By his own admission on one of those MSG meet the coach shows he admitted they were very much using a lot of what Garrett did with Cowboys.
Also Why didn’t Garrett need to be here? Why does judge get to be here?
Face facts Garrett haters got it wrong. Judge is basically a shitty coach and kitchens just could not open up this playbook with jones and expect the mythological QB you expecting to see who wasn’t so much better with Shurmur
Further Garett might have been the only decent thing about this team exception being some of the young talent of defense. He was not that good but still better than the bush league coach and his red necklace buddy
“Garrett didn’t need to here any more”
First what page is that? Judge has never even been an oc and has no hc experience. By his own admission on one of those MSG meet the coach shows he admitted they were very much using a lot of what Garrett did with Cowboys.
Also Why didn’t Garrett need to be here? Why does judge get to be here?
Face facts Garrett haters got it wrong. Judge is basically a shitty coach and kitchens just could not open up this playbook with jones and expect the mythological QB you expecting to see who wasn’t so much better with Shurmur
Further Garett might have been the only decent thing about this team exception being some of the young talent of defense. He was not that good but still better than the bush league coach and his red necklace buddy
So you are saying you saw 0% difference in the concepts run between this past Sunday and all the of Garrett coordinated games?
Pretty clear by now that his success in Dallas (if you want to call it that) was dictated by the OL, something we had the polar opposite of. Maybe that's unfair to him, but it is what it is. He wasn't making it work and after all the talent we added on offense this year you can argue we regressed on offense if that's even possible. He had to go, plain and simple.
As for this limitless talent you claim they had, someone had to successfully evaluate the players, work with the front office, coach them up and have them play. Yes, the Dallas front office is way ahead of the clowns we have had. But part of that pool was an UDFA qb and a 4th round pick who were both turned into good players. Again, contrast that with the aforementioned Judge.
Garrett had to go because someone needed to pay for the failures on the team and the owners' free agent spend. You can bet the players know Garret's head coaching history and have been talking to former Dallas players and making comparisons with Joe J or his buddy Kitchens.
As for Freddie Kitchens, good for him that his asshole buddy gave him a job. Somehow he escaped the blame despite his title as "Senior Offensive Assistant". Cleveland got rid of him pretty quick despite the warm regard in which former players of his like Peppers appear to hold him. i suspect we will too.
The term "dumpster fire" is overused but it does seem appropriate for this bunch. The defensive players may continue to play if they like Graham and hope to see him be the HC. I don't see anyone going to the mattresses for Joe. It's just an opinion, but I think he is a goner despite the recent public relations blitz to try and prop him up.
So you are saying you saw 0% difference in the concepts run between this past Sunday and all the of Garrett coordinated games?
No I am not saying that. So what is your point?
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he seems like a good man and is highly respected in the world of football. But he wasn't a good HC and after a lackluster first year as OC for us (which I thought had a lot of promise given his prior work with QBs) I was willing to give him a year 2. Well, he should have been fired after a month when we still had something left to play for.
Pretty clear by now that his success in Dallas (if you want to call it that) was dictated by the OL, something we had the polar opposite of. Maybe that's unfair to him, but it is what it is. He wasn't making it work and after all the talent we added on offense this year you can argue we regressed on offense if that's even possible. He had to go, plain and simple.
You are misrepresenting his record in Dallas. He was HC in Dallas for 9 seasons during which he had one losing season (Romo got hurt after 4 games at which point they were 3-1.). Would we take one losing season in 9 years? Contrast that with Judge.
As for this limitless talent you claim they had, someone had to successfully evaluate the players, work with the front office, coach them up and have them play. Yes, the Dallas front office is way ahead of the clowns we have had. But part of that pool was an UDFA qb and a 4th round pick who were both turned into good players. Again, contrast that with the aforementioned Judge.
Garrett had to go because someone needed to pay for the failures on the team and the owners' free agent spend. You can bet the players know Garret's head coaching history and have been talking to former Dallas players and making comparisons with Joe J or his buddy Kitchens.
As for Freddie Kitchens, good for him that his asshole buddy gave him a job. Somehow he escaped the blame despite his title as "Senior Offensive Assistant". Cleveland got rid of him pretty quick despite the warm regard in which former players of his like Peppers appear to hold him. i suspect we will too.
The term "dumpster fire" is overused but it does seem appropriate for this bunch. The defensive players may continue to play if they like Graham and hope to see him be the HC. I don't see anyone going to the mattresses for Joe. It's just an opinion, but I think he is a goner despite the recent public relations blitz to try and prop him up.
The story on Garrett and ultimately why he was fired is that his teams had Super Bowl talent, and that he consistently held them back to 8-8 and 9-7 seasons... It doesn't matter that they didn't have "losing" seasons.
It's worse to perform under expectations
I think Giants fans and the front office over inflated what this roster is... Judge is doing just about where the Giants earned the right to be.
The story on Garrett and ultimately why he was fired is that his teams had Super Bowl talent, and that he consistently held them back to 8-8 and 9-7 seasons... It doesn't matter that they didn't have "losing" seasons.
It's worse to perform under expectations
I think Giants fans and the front office over inflated what this roster is... Judge is doing just about where the Giants earned the right to be.
How do you know that? No one is saying Garrett is this awesome coach. What we are saying is Joe Timeout is really bad coach. He basically got to fire someone who is a better coach than he is. This team scored only 4 more points than a concussed-for-half-a-game Glennon against Philly despite the Eagles having 4 Tournovers.
Surprised to hear a fellow NYG fan poo-poo a non-losing season. We've managed what? 2 in the last 10 years?
But don't expect to hear that from the horse's ass.
Eventually it catches up to you
Sure, i'd sign up for always having a winning record but that would also trigger new expectations. Garrett never lived up to it any way you slice it.
Surprised to hear a fellow NYG fan poo-poo a non-losing season. We've managed what? 2 in the last 10 years?
Constantly complaining about it doesn't do anything. Complaining about Judge, Jones, Gettelman might be something you consider worth your time but its a waste for me.
Judge is likely here in 2022 and bitching about it won't change it.
Sure, i'd sign up for always having a winning record but that would also trigger new expectations. Garrett never lived up to it any way you slice it.
You can’t dance unless you are on the dance floor that generally means win more than you lose. Right now, we are sitting with Larry and Jagliesh and the other pledges.
And anyway, compared to Joe Judge, Garrett is Lombardi.
If the headline was Judge liked and respects Garrett, but team needed to score more — that’s a tough sell when you get worse.
If the headline was Judge and Garrett had a fundamental different view on the offense, and things needed deeper changes — that might sell.
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now it's "expectations" and if nothing is expected than hey, we can applaud a ham sandwich as head coach because "expectations" were met. I would suggest that we are close to the ham sandwich with Judge. As for expectations, we were drafting and adding free agents in a manner that would suggest the expectations were playoff team. What you are saying is that the team's expectations were just as far as off as John and Jane Q Fan- hardly a ringing endorsement.
Surprised to hear a fellow NYG fan poo-poo a non-losing season. We've managed what? 2 in the last 10 years?
Constantly complaining about it doesn't do anything. Complaining about Judge, Jones, Gettelman might be something you consider worth your time but its a waste for me.
Judge is likely here in 2022 and bitching about it won't change it.
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i'm not and if he went 9 seasons here with only 2 playoff wins I'm guessing you'd feel exactly the same. He did little when it matters, and that's all that matters, right?
Sure, i'd sign up for always having a winning record but that would also trigger new expectations. Garrett never lived up to it any way you slice it.
if that was the case, we wouldn’t have gotten rid of the guy with the multiple rings but you were all for that right?
You can’t dance unless you are on the dance floor that generally means win more than you lose. Right now, we are sitting with Larry and Jagliesh and the other pledges.
And anyway, compared to Joe Judge, Garrett is Lombardi.
Well, Lombardi is now hoping to coach Duke so yeah, congrats to him and his greatness.
I wasn't all for anything regarding Coughlin, McAdoo, Shurmur or Judge. I'm open to change but I really don't feel terribly strongly about things I don't have much information about. I don't know what goes on behind closed doors, and don't know the power dynamics, and I don't know the contentions.
But the point remains, Judge is likely our 2022 head coach whether you like it or not. And I'd like to see him there with a new GM and new QB. If the new GM wants him gone, so be it.
All are responsible for failure: be it plan, or execution.
But it starts at the foundation: the players, and at the snap of the ball. When the other team has the ball, we are adequate+; when we have the ball, even with what was to be our first string: adequate-; and with the backups, backups to backups, and street players to the backups of the backups backups: horrible.
You can’t dance unless you are on the dance floor that generally means win more than you lose. Right now, we are sitting with Larry and Jagliesh and the other pledges.
I thought it was Jugdish...