You can call it a scholarship... but he's the 6th overall pick and a QB, that's an investment (and I'd still hedge my bets and draft a QB on day 2) but I think you have to give him a fourth year. And if he doesn't make the playoffs, you move on.
Build up the line in the draft. Try to get some pass rushers. But this isn't the draft to go after a QB in the top ten. I'd rather gamble on Jones putting it together than using a top ten pick on one of these kids coming out especially when our line is 1/5 of the way built.
They had Daniel Jones as a 3rd/4th round guy in 2019.
I'm not suggesting using a first rounder on a guy with the purpose of trading him the next year. I'm saying there are QBs worthy of being drafted with one of our first picks of our coaches and scouts like him. I'm also saying that picking a quarterback this year shouldn't preclude us from picking one next year if there's a guy we like - that should just be general policy.
What we shouldn't be doing is sitting around for years and waiting for a "gold jacket" guy. That is ridiculous.
Funny considering the last “gold jacket” guy we drafted isn’t even the best RB on the team.
2- Darnold had cache. He was a legit big prospect. He played in big games in college and did well. Jones played a bowl game against Temple. Jones is actually better than Darnold, but he is nowhere near as alluring.
He's a completely depreciated asset - trading him now is about clearing room for another prospect. Any snaps Jones gets are of no value as he is near certain to be off the roster in 2023 even if he's healthy.
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In comment 15520168 bw in dc said:
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and that there is a market for him. So, that should be priority #1 this offseason in terms of personnel. Get Jones healthy and take what we can get. My guess is Jones would net a third or fourth round pick.
Keeping Jones because he's cheap means nothing to me. He's a poor fit here and needs a new beginning. Following Eli, playing for an organization this inept, and not being a force multiplier QB has proven too steep a climb.
Another year of mediocre play should make all of us against a 4th year.
I can’t get my arms much more than a 3rd or 4th round pick for him. Or like a 4th becoming some conditional higher pick based on starts or snaps.
I'll sign for that.
Look, you start with the Darnold package and negotiate off that. I could see interest from New Orleans, Pittsburgh, Atlanta...
I could go either way at 4th rounder. But any less would just keep on as presumed backup for next year.
That would have taken foresight, though.
2- Darnold had cache. He was a legit big prospect. He played in big games in college and did well. Jones played a bowl game against Temple. Jones is actually better than Darnold, but he is nowhere near as alluring.
Exactly. When GMs and scouts around the league looked at Darnold, they saw the kid they remembered from USC with enormous upside who could be a reclamation project after he landed in a terrible situation with the Jets.
Jones has none of that. He wasn't recruited out of high school, had a mediocre college career, and outside of the Giants is likely that no more than 1-2 teams even had a first round grade on him in 2019. There's no "untapped potential" in Jones. He is who he is, and with the exception of a few dreamers on this board, nobody thinks there's very much upside.
That would have taken foresight, though.
Yep, especially knowing they were high on Herbert.
I linked the report prior to the 2020 draft about how the Giants were scouting Herbert very closely. Did Judge push for Herbert but shot down? Who knows.
Link - ( New Window )
That would have taken foresight, though.
Yes, a good bit…
That would have taken foresight, though.
I actually think you and I may have explored that at the end of 2019. I know we did after 2020.
Gettleman has a litany of big mistakes. Jones was the most catastrophic.
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On the strength of those mirage games against poor competition.
That would have taken foresight, though.
Yep, especially knowing they were high on Herbert.
I linked the report prior to the 2020 draft about how the Giants were scouting Herbert very closely. Did Judge push for Herbert but shot down? Who knows. Link - ( New Window )
Imagine the Giants had traded Jones for a first and a third and drafted Herbert. Shit, what if they'd done that and drafted Hurts in that same draft?
If you're good at scouting QBs it is NEVER a bad idea to draft a QB. They appreciate in value like no other position because demand is always enormous.
If there is one area to invest a HUGE amount of money and time in it's QB scouting.
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1- That was dumb by Carolina. Not everyone is that dumb. Plus everyone just saw what happened when you trade for a bust
2- Darnold had cache. He was a legit big prospect. He played in big games in college and did well. Jones played a bowl game against Temple. Jones is actually better than Darnold, but he is nowhere near as alluring.
Exactly. When GMs and scouts around the league looked at Darnold, they saw the kid they remembered from USC with enormous upside who could be a reclamation project after he landed in a terrible situation with the Jets.
Jones has none of that. He wasn't recruited out of high school, had a mediocre college career, and outside of the Giants is likely that no more than 1-2 teams even had a first round grade on him in 2019. There's no "untapped potential" in Jones. He is who he is, and with the exception of a few dreamers on this board, nobody thinks there's very much upside.
I agree with everything in your post here but it did just now make me remember I believe the Broncos were one of those 1-2 teams that coveted Jones and were possibly looking to take him in the 1st round, which was used by some people on this board who defended Gettleman for not waiting until pick #17 to take him. I can't remember who the other team was that was rumored to possibly take Jones before #17, but in the Broncos' case they do technically still not have an answer at QB long term at the moment, so I wonder if they would consider giving up a 2nd rounder for Jones (more realistically maybe a 3rd rounder).
...Also possible all of that was bullshit and the Giants were literally the ONLY team that thought to take Jones in the 1st round.
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On the strength of those mirage games against poor competition.
That would have taken foresight, though.
I actually think you and I may have explored that at the end of 2019. I know we did after 2020.
Gettleman has a litany of big mistakes. Jones was the most catastrophic.
We did. I said I would trade Jones, Barkley, and #6 to Cincy to take Burrow. Got laughed at.
Can't say I saw what Herbert would be though.
2- Darnold had cache. He was a legit big prospect. He played in big games in college and did well. Jones played a bowl game against Temple. Jones is actually better than Darnold, but he is nowhere near as alluring.
Not much disagreement. I'm just using the baseline the market set.
Darnold is shot. Someone might look at Jones and still see a pulse, and a chance to reprogram him.
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In comment 15519927 Producer said:
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In comment 15519881 Jim in NH said:
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@adamg "And if he doesn't make the playoffs, you move on."
No QB born in the history of football is going to "make the playoffs" behind this shitshow, not next year anyway.
NYG need 20 new position players to stop being a joke. QB is the LAST piece of the puzzle, not the first.
You get the QB when he is available to you, not when it's convenient for you. That's the mistake they made when they overdrafted Jones. They were ready to fill the slot and went QB instead of waiting and drafting Herbert. That one sequence of decisions will haunt this franchise for 15 years.
If a great QB is there now you take him, even if you're not ready, like Cincy, like the Chargers, like Arizona.
Cincy, Chargers, and Arizona all needed a QB when they selected Burrow, Herbert, and Murray respectively. I do not see you calling out Go Terps for suggesting we draft a 1st Round QB in 2022 as a possible 1 year stopgap (in other words overdrafting a poorer QB rather than waiting for the Herbert next year). That is precisely the mistake we made with Jones.
I'm all for drafting a QB in the first round this year if they have a conviction about the player, has a chance to become an NFL stud. I don't see where Terps said draft a stopgap in the first round. Sure the player may turn into a stopgap. And if he does move on quickly.
To quote Go Terps earlier in this thread:
If you like one of the quarterbacks (Judge is rumored to feel strongly about Pickett), then draft him and play him from the outset. Regardless of how good he is or isn't as a rookie we will still be able to draft another if desirable in 2023.
He is advocating, no matter what happens with the QB he wants us to select in 2022 1st Round, if there is someone we like more with our 2023 1st Round selection we should take him. While I do not think there is a QB in this draft who can start Week 1 of 2022 season and also have the upside to be a QB you want to offer a second contract to, there is the possiblity that I am wrong. If a QB comes in and wins us a Super Bowl (I know it is unlikely), Go Terps is advocating completely overlooking that if there is a QB when we pick in 2023 Draft with a higher grade than our 2022 QB had. That is the very definition of stopgap. Every first round pick should be drafted with the idea that they are somebody we will want to offer a second contract to. If they do not have that upside they do not deserve to be ranked as a 1st rounder on our draft board. I know that means you won't have 32 players with 1st round draft grades, but if that happens that is when you trade out and acquire more draft capital.
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In comment 15520483 Go Terps said:
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On the strength of those mirage games against poor competition.
That would have taken foresight, though.
Yep, especially knowing they were high on Herbert.
I linked the report prior to the 2020 draft about how the Giants were scouting Herbert very closely. Did Judge push for Herbert but shot down? Who knows. Link - ( New Window )
Imagine the Giants had traded Jones for a first and a third and drafted Herbert. Shit, what if they'd done that and drafted Hurts in that same draft?
If you're good at scouting QBs it is NEVER a bad idea to draft a QB. They appreciate in value like no other position because demand is always enormous.
If there is one area to invest a HUGE amount of money and time in it's QB scouting.
When was the last time a QB was dealt for an unconditional 1st round pick and did not involve a salary dump? Josh Rosen sh*t the bed as a rookie, and the Cardinals did not recover what they traded when they dealt up for him.
No QB born in the history of football is going to "make the playoffs" behind this shitshow, not next year anyway.
NYG need 20 new position players to stop being a joke. QB is the LAST piece of the puzzle, not the first.
You guys have all these stupid fucking rules.
Let me see if I'm clear..you can't draft skill positions until the OL is 100% done right? And you have to wait for the entire fucking roster to be complete before you find your QB?
People around here spew this mindless drivel as if it made any logical sense.
This is nonsense.
The trick is drafting good players not forcing picks at positions or passing on good players because you have to draft in some particular order.
If we draft a QB this year and we find ourselves in a position to draft a QB we like next year, we shouldn't write that possibility off just because we already drafted one.
What we can't do is NOT draft a QB this year because there is one in next year's draft that we like now. Next year's draft can't influence this year's decisions.
Schneier brought up the Bengals and Burrow a couple of days ago. Said he was jealous of JBs "video game" performance. A couple of other tweets from that thread
@DanSchneierNFL: Don't forget the #Bengals ranked worse than the #Giants in pass protection. They no longer start Bobby Hart, but their IOL is a mess.
So no, you don't "need the OL" before you can worry about the QB. You need the game-changing QB. They win Super Bowls. They change franchises.
@DanSchneierNFL: These come ups (burrow, etc) shape my aggression at QB roster building wise — paraphrased as the same 5 QB have won the last 20 Super Bowls so you should swing to find one of those and keep swinging until you do — the assets lost along the way won’t matter once you find QB.
This point can’t be made enough, if you don’t have an NFL QB1 that can win Super Bowls then you don’t have a team. Yea, yea, the outliers with Dilfer and the Ravens. But, and Dan makes this point very effectively with lots of data and sound reason, no legit QB1 and your team is playing for second place.
If we don’t bring in Russ - who is absolutely an elite QB1 with gas left in the tank - then draft a QB1 to compete with Jones. Not a 3rd or 4th round tomato can to hold Jones clipboard while he fumbles on game day. Keep drafting for a legit QB1. And when you have him, you’ll know it and you build from there.
If we draft a QB this year and we find ourselves in a position to draft a QB we like next year, we shouldn't write that possibility off just because we already drafted one.
What we can't do is NOT draft a QB this year because there is one in next year's draft that we like now. Next year's draft can't influence this year's decisions.
I know the site you linked had Pickett and Corral rated higher than they had Jones, but that does not mean that they deserve to be selected with a Top 10 pick. If we are talking about the next Mitch Trubisky or Marcus Mariota, that would be a spectacular waste of a pick. Just because you "like" a QB does not mean you should reach for one. Personally the only QB I "like" among this year's first round picks is Ridder, but I do not think he is a 2022 Week 1 starter if you want him to reach his potential and I think the early to mid-20's is accurate for where he will eventually fall on my board. You don't just bump that up to Top 10 because he happens to be your #1 guy at that position if it means passing on much higher rated players at other positions.
Are all three going to hit? Probably not. But that can be said for every other prospect at every other position.
NYG need 20 new position players to stop being a joke. QB is the LAST piece of the puzzle, not the first.
I could not disagree more. You don't force a pick at QB (or any other position) in round 1. However, when a GM is trying to rebuild a franchise that needs help everywhere, you take the QB if you're sold on the QB. That is even more true if the pick does not require you to sacrifice future premium picks.
You have a chance to fill the most important position on the team, you jump on it fast. If you're afraid he'll get killed behind a horrible OL, you sit him a year until that line is improved. You can't slap together an all star OL in one year however you can show marked improvement with day 2 picks one year and more premium picks the following year. I know Rome wasn't built in a day but an actual GM doesn't need 4 years to build a competent OL.
Are all three going to hit? Probably not. But that can be said for every other prospect at every other position.
Yes, based on my evaluations I think neither Pickett nor Corral will be the type of QB you want to offer a 2nd contract to and that would be a disaster with a Top 10 selection. I agree with Thibodeaux. He will likely test well, but failing to live up to the hype concerns me and requires further digging. Hutch is not the same player athletically, but watching him perform even when teams were gearing up to stop him I think he likely has a longer career in the NFL even if it is in more of a Kenny Holmes-type role.
Jones is not a guy who will carry a team but if you surround him with a solid line(thanks Dave), good receivers and a solid back he can get the job done, IMO.
Same line of thinking with regard to Barclay. Gotta give him one more year to get his body and head right. Do hang onto Booker though.
I see people saying this all the time, and I never know what it is based on.
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@adamg "And if he doesn't make the playoffs, you move on."
No QB born in the history of football is going to "make the playoffs" behind this shitshow, not next year anyway.
NYG need 20 new position players to stop being a joke. QB is the LAST piece of the puzzle, not the first.
You guys have all these stupid fucking rules.
Let me see if I'm clear..you can't draft skill positions until the OL is 100% done right? And you have to wait for the entire fucking roster to be complete before you find your QB?
People around here spew this mindless drivel as if it made any logical sense.
This is nonsense.
The trick is drafting good players not forcing picks at positions or passing on good players because you have to draft in some particular order.
LakeGeorge - no one said that. Your commentary is the type that hurts the conversation. Nothing is 100% done ever. But you have to have a decent team in place around the QB. The results around the league drafting QBs in the 1st round if you don't speak for themselves.
The exception of course is a Manning-type QB. But taking a flier on a run of the mill 1st round QB when you suck in general is a recipe for disaster.
And make no mistake - the Giants absolutely suck around the QB.
This point can’t be made enough, if you don’t have an NFL QB1 that can win Super Bowls then you don’t have a team. Yea, yea, the outliers with Dilfer and the Ravens. But, and Dan makes this point very effectively with lots of data and sound reason, no legit QB1 and your team is playing for second place.
If we don’t bring in Russ - who is absolutely an elite QB1 with gas left in the tank - then draft a QB1 to compete with Jones. Not a 3rd or 4th round tomato can to hold Jones clipboard while he fumbles on game day. Keep drafting for a legit QB1. And when you have him, you’ll know it and you build from there.
I'm on the TBD view with Wilson. I want to believe his struggles were due to his finger, but every player has their cliff. And maybe after all of these years running for his football life, Wilson is near his.
I agree with the concept of drafting a QB until you hit paydirt. If you have the right GM, scouts and process, the franchise player is out there. Which is why this is such a critical moment in this organization's history. Overhauling the front office with better talent and processes.
FWIW, I would ask Vegas about trading for Derek Carr. He's in the final year of his contract in 2022 and his cap hit would be $20M. He's a very underrated QB who I believe still has a lot of gas in the tank.
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In comment 15519927 Producer said:
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In comment 15519881 Jim in NH said:
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@adamg "And if he doesn't make the playoffs, you move on."
No QB born in the history of football is going to "make the playoffs" behind this shitshow, not next year anyway.
NYG need 20 new position players to stop being a joke. QB is the LAST piece of the puzzle, not the first.
You get the QB when he is available to you, not when it's convenient for you. That's the mistake they made when they overdrafted Jones. They were ready to fill the slot and went QB instead of waiting and drafting Herbert. That one sequence of decisions will haunt this franchise for 15 years.
If a great QB is there now you take him, even if you're not ready, like Cincy, like the Chargers, like Arizona.
Cincy, Chargers, and Arizona all needed a QB when they selected Burrow, Herbert, and Murray respectively. I do not see you calling out Go Terps for suggesting we draft a 1st Round QB in 2022 as a possible 1 year stopgap (in other words overdrafting a poorer QB rather than waiting for the Herbert next year). That is precisely the mistake we made with Jones.
Schneier brought up the Bengals and Burrow a couple of days ago. Said he was jealous of JBs "video game" performance. A couple of other tweets from that thread
@DanSchneierNFL: Don't forget the #Bengals ranked worse than the #Giants in pass protection. They no longer start Bobby Hart, but their IOL is a mess.
So no, you don't "need the OL" before you can worry about the QB. You need the game-changing QB. They win Super Bowls. They change franchises.
@DanSchneierNFL: These come ups (burrow, etc) shape my aggression at QB roster building wise — paraphrased as the same 5 QB have won the last 20 Super Bowls so you should swing to find one of those and keep swinging until you do — the assets lost along the way won’t matter once you find QB.
Gotta love it when people take one situation and make it what works in the NFL. Ok...so if your line sucks, you need to have a great QB coming out and the 1st pick in the draft? Got it!
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Jones is not a guy who will carry a team but if you surround him with a solid line(thanks Dave), good receivers and a solid back he can get the job done, IMO.
I see people saying this all the time, and I never know what it is based on.
I hear this all the time too. I heard Jordan Ranaan say on the radio the other day that “people around the league still think Jones can be a top 15 QB” as if that’s something to strive for. If you have the 15th best QB in the league the best you’re gonna be is the Andy Dalton Bengals, winning 9 games a season and eeking into a few 1 & done Wild Cards.
then you have them all compete for the starting job.
You also tickle your neighbors. So I think we need to grade on a curve.
Are all three going to hit? Probably not. But that can be said for every other prospect at every other position.
A top 10 pick at QB should have HOF talent and be a guy, that if he develops and becomes a very good version of himself, becomes a 15 year starter in the NFL. Daniel Jones was not even close to that level and none of the QBs in this class are either. You can't call Jones a reach and think this class is any different.
If you take a QB in the 1st this year, he sucks, and then you take another QB in 2023...you'll have wasted at least one 1st round pick and you'll be paying a bad backup QB $8 million a year for 3 years (and your starter $8 million for 4 years)? Not to mention...the opportunity cost you lost to improve other parts of your team. You can't waste top 10 picks on QBs that dont have top 10 talent...it's a big reason why we suck now.
Also, this talk of there not being a good QB has become group think at this point. I can assure you there are scouts who like this class of QBs. Now, there might not be that elite #1 pick but there are a few good prospects.
If you took every QB on every depth chart in the league and ranked them Jones is anywhere from 35-50. He's a really limited player, and he will now be only moreso after having run himself into a couple dumb injuries this year.
And that's if he plays again, which I think may be in question.
The sooner the Giants realize that about DJ...the better.
No.
We need to stop sugar coating the type of prospect Jones was.
He was never even as standout as the guys in this class.
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You can't call Jones a reach and think this class is any different.
No.
We need to stop sugar coating the type of prospect Jones was.
He was never even as standout as the guys in this class.
Ding ding ding
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You can't call Jones a reach and think this class is any different.
No.
We need to stop sugar coating the type of prospect Jones was.
He was never even as standout as the guys in this class.
Completely agree, even said that earlier...but you also need to stop sugar coating this draft class because the Giants need a QB. Rating a guy as a 1st rounder, because NFL teams are desperate for QBs, and saying they have 1st round talent are 2 different things. Go watch Corral against Bama and tell me that's a guy you want playing against NFL talent. He looked scared to death. If one of these guys is there in the 2nd...go for it. But reaching for one of these guys in the top 10, that's a Gettleman move.
All Terps, and other "experts", are doing is throwing out 3 names so they can say they nailed it, way back when. They can't even decide which QB to take...which says there is no clear favorite, which means there's a good chance all, or at least 2 of the 3, are busts. Pickett is the only guy I'd roll the dice on, and even he has a very low ceiling...his arm strength is nothing amazing. Pickett reminds me of Trubisky.
Just take the BPA with both 1st round picks...it shouldn't be a QB this year.
That would have taken foresight, though.
Do you realize how ludicrous that sounds?
How about reading some of your posts, before clicking on submit, geez.
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On the strength of those mirage games against poor competition.
That would have taken foresight, though.
.
Do you realize how ludicrous that sounds?
How about reading some of your posts, before clicking on submit, geez.
It's ludicrous if you're a poorly run, archaic organization.