Despite the horrific last 10 years of Giants football and the sad state of the franchise, I do think this draft is a huge opportunity for this franchise to get back on the right path. While the offense is a mess across the board, the defense has some solid pieces and with the right draft picks I think it is closer to being a top 10 defense than it is to being a bottom 10 defense in the league.
My initial hope for the draft was to use the top 2 picks to draft a defensive game wrecker (EDGE, LB, maybe even Hamilton if he's top of your board) & the top OL available. The more I think about it I would like to see a QB chosen; this is assuming that the value is there after player evaluations are complete and the player isn't a reach. Here's why...
There are arguments on both sides as to whether DJ has the capability to be the guy; the one fact is that he hasn't proven to anyone that he is 100% THE GUY. He's had an atrocious supporting cast and a terrible offensive scheme to contend with; he's shown flashes but has been far too inconsistent for a guy in his 3rd year. Performance/potential aside, DJ has not proven to be durable which has to be a focus in evaluating his future. If the offensive pieces are fixed he may have a terrific 2022, or maybe not. The Giants can't go into 2023 with more uncertainty at the QB position and nobody can say for sure which DJ we'll see next year.
Drafting a QB in the 1st round gives the Giants a few things immediately
*Competition for DJ in year 1
*A plan if the Giants need to move on from DJ in 2023
*A competent backup for '22
Best case scenario: DJ has a great 2023 and the QB 1st rounder develops well enough to start in 2023. This gives the Giants multiple options; trading 1st round QB for multiple picks (next year or year after); franchising Jones (assuming 5th year option isn't exercised) and bringing back the 1st rounder, franchising Jones and trading him for picks. Any of those options results in the Giants having their expected franchise QB for the next 7-10 years with the ability to flip the other for draft capital.
Worst Case Scenario: Well let's just say you can look at most NFL teams who miss on top 10 QB's and it ain't pretty. It will set them back another 5 years and may even lead to the end of BBI.
Finding a franchise QB is the toughest thing in the NFL - if the Giants can hedge their bet on Jones and improve their odds of solidifying the QB position by drafting one in the first round I think you have to make that move.
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A year is an eternity in football.
With the 6th overall pick in the 2019 NFL Draft, The New York Giants select Daniel Jones.
They shouldn't have drafted Jones because he wasn't all that good in college, not because of who was available the following year.
Drafting Jones shouldn't have prevented them from drafting Herbert. Drafting a QB in this draft should prevent them from drafting another in 2023 if the prospect is there.
The concept of drafting a franchise QB needs to be rethought. Rather than waiting for the perfect QB prospect to fall in the Giants' laps they'd be better served to take shots with guys who aren't "generational" (whatever that means) AND be open to drafting a QB even if they feel they're set at the position (like they should have with Herbert).
The importance of the QB position is obvious and indisputable - so why not take as many shots at it as is practical?
Take one of Corral or Pickett. Play the guy you draft immediately. Be open to drafting another QB in 2023 if an attractive prospect falls to them regardless of how the 2022 pick performs.
The draft isn't there to plug holes, it's a talent pipeline. Take the long view here.
If both are worthy of top 10 picks, why not draft both and then trade the worse of the two?
There are countless examples of that throughout the history of the NFL.
But I really don’t think he’s going to end up being a better pro QB than Daniel Jones will end up being. Just my opinion based on his skill set.
Take the highest graded players. Make the roster better. Don’t force the pick like we’ve done in the past.
And no - I don’t think Pickett or Corral are top 10 prospects.
Even with a mediocre season next year he will go down with some of the worst passing/team stats in the history of the NFL.
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If we sit and wait for an Andrew Luck prospect we might be waiting a decade.
The concept of drafting a franchise QB needs to be rethought. Rather than waiting for the perfect QB prospect to fall in the Giants' laps they'd be better served to take shots with guys who aren't "generational" (whatever that means) AND be open to drafting a QB even if they feel they're set at the position (like they should have with Herbert).
The importance of the QB position is obvious and indisputable - so why not take as many shots at it as is practical?
Take one of Corral or Pickett. Play the guy you draft immediately. Be open to drafting another QB in 2023 if an attractive prospect falls to them regardless of how the 2022 pick performs.
The draft isn't there to plug holes, it's a talent pipeline. Take the long view here.
If both are worthy of top 10 picks, why not draft both and then trade the worse of the two?
I'm not completely opposed; the only issue is that it will be tough to get a good look (and let possible trade partners get a good look) at both of them. Not completely against it though.
Academic exercise obviously; Pickett has long hair and Corral has a visible tattoo. They're probably both off the board.
Usually, those prospects are ones you are drooling over. They go high. The lower the position you pick a QB, the more you're just taking a flier on him. IF I trade down, I'm not taking a QB in round 1. No fliers.
We all know we need a new QB, but we shouldn't pick one out of desperation. Everyone always puts the "IF the team is convinced, take him" cop out. Duh. That goes for any top draft picks. Just look rationally at the quality of the prospect. Don't apply a fudge factor/grade on a curve just because we need a QB.
Go Terps is right that you shouldn't be afraid to draft a QB 2 years in a row. But you don't draft the first one thinking you might need to draft another. A top ten QB has to be one you think is going to be Mr Right, not Mr Right for now.
The Giants wouldn't get more than a 5th round pick for Jones. His numbers suck and there are questions surrounding his health.
I mean I disagree but we'll likely never know. Jones was fine with Shurmur and a working Barkley. His first pre season game, he showed he could play. Then they lost Shurmur and got this crap coaching staff. Here's a fact. Judge's coaches and staff kill QBs. Jones went downhill. Glennon played the worst game ever by a QB.
I think Jones has value, so many here say stuff like "He's a one read guy", I dont think they know what the fuck they are talking about. They dont watch all 22, just talking out of their ass. Get Jones with a good coach and a decent OL. Let's see what he can do. That aint the Giants though.
Using Rattler is a straw man. There are plenty of QBs that show excellence and continue it down the line. Like our very own Eli Manning.
And I dont think we're waiting for Luck, another straw man, We need a very good QB, one that can take a good team to the next level. Josh Allen, Herbert, they are out there. From what I've seen from Young and Stroud, both were successful in HS and now as FR are playing extremely well. You are all about being good in HS, college, etc, well these two are doing it, no?
I'm not opposed to taking a QB in 2022 but the new GM just needs that conviction that this is a plus player. Not Andrew Luck. You say its Corral and Pickett, although you said Willis awhile ago and that changed quick. Now its Pickett. Let's see what happens.
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A year is an eternity in football. A year ago Spencer Rattler was the next big thing. Now he's transferred to South Carolina.
Using Rattler is a straw man. There are plenty of QBs that show excellence and continue it down the line. Like our very own Eli Manning.
And I dont think we're waiting for Luck, another straw man, We need a very good QB, one that can take a good team to the next level. Josh Allen, Herbert, they are out there. From what I've seen from Young and Stroud, both were successful in HS and now as FR are playing extremely well. You are all about being good in HS, college, etc, well these two are doing it, no?
I'm not opposed to taking a QB in 2022 but the new GM just needs that conviction that this is a plus player. Not Andrew Luck. You say its Corral and Pickett, although you said Willis awhile ago and that changed quick. Now its Pickett. Let's see what happens.
And what if Stroud and/or Young (who doesn't impress me) aren't available when we draft next year? What if they get hurt? What if they regress? There are a million what ifs that could arise between now and the 2023 draft. You don't draw up plans under such uncertainty.
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In comment 15531412 Go Terps said:
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A year is an eternity in football. A year ago Spencer Rattler was the next big thing. Now he's transferred to South Carolina.
Using Rattler is a straw man. There are plenty of QBs that show excellence and continue it down the line. Like our very own Eli Manning.
And I dont think we're waiting for Luck, another straw man, We need a very good QB, one that can take a good team to the next level. Josh Allen, Herbert, they are out there. From what I've seen from Young and Stroud, both were successful in HS and now as FR are playing extremely well. You are all about being good in HS, college, etc, well these two are doing it, no?
I'm not opposed to taking a QB in 2022 but the new GM just needs that conviction that this is a plus player. Not Andrew Luck. You say its Corral and Pickett, although you said Willis awhile ago and that changed quick. Now its Pickett. Let's see what happens.
And what if Stroud and/or Young (who doesn't impress me) aren't available when we draft next year? What if they get hurt? What if they regress? There are a million what ifs that could arise between now and the 2023 draft. You don't draw up plans under such uncertainty.
To be real with you Terps, I don't think the Giants will play it my way (tank for Young), I think they bring back Jones and he wins them enough so they are bad but not top 2 draft bad.
As far as strategy, I (as a fan) trust what I see on the field (At some point thats what its about, you trust what you see in COrral and Pickett). I'm higher on Young than Stroud but both are terrific prospects. I think they are the top 2 picks next year based on team strength and what I've seen on the field. There is a small % of regression and catastrophic injury but thats everywhere. There is no perfect strategy.
Of course, there is no "sure thing" at any position. When the BPA advocates talk about taking BPA over Need they act like that's easier because - seemingly - the BPA is more of "sure thing". Which is asinine.
But I digress.
I'm assuming this conversation is all for naught because my guess is Jones is locked in for 2022. And Mara et al are going to ride Jones until it's even more clear Jones is not a franchise QB. They are going down with the Jones ship...
On this specific ask by the OP, there are at least five QBs in this draft more talented than Jones. So, by that criteria alone we should be looking to upgrade. I would trade one of those top ten picks and move down for other picks; and get into a draft slot more suitable for this class of QBs - say 15-30.
If we're going to talk about taking one and letting him sit behind Jones, the better discussion is do you use a 2nd round pick on Willis if he's still sitting there?
Take what the draft gives us quality wise, and try to fix the rest through FA.
Now I do think in the 2nd Rd the value and quality would be better. I could absolutely see taking Pickett, Corral, or Strong in the 2nd. That would be a dream draft, pick 2 top OL players in Rd 1 and get one of these guys in Rd 2
Aiden Hutchinson 94
Kayvon Thinodeaux 94
Evan Neal 94
Derrick Stingley 94
Kyle Hamilton 94
Jameson Williams 94
Demarvin Leal 93
Nakobe Dean 93
Garrett Wilson 92
Charles Cross 92
David Ojabo 92
Drake London 92
Tyler Linderbaum 91
Travon Walker 91
Ahmad Gardner 91
Kenny Pickett 90
Matt Corral 90
Devin Lloyd 90
George Karlaftis 90
Roger McCreary 90
Ikem Ekwonu 90
Chris Olave 90
Andrew Booth 90
Jahan Dotson 90
Kaiir Elam 90
Jordan Davis 90
Malik Willis 89
Trevor Penning 89
Treylon Burks 89
Trey McBribe 89
Cameron Thomas 88
Nicholas Petit-Frere 88
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In comment 15531412 Go Terps said:
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A year is an eternity in football.
With the 6th overall pick in the 2019 NFL Draft, The New York Giants select Daniel Jones.
They shouldn't have drafted Jones because he wasn't all that good in college, not because of who was available the following year.
Drafting Jones shouldn't have prevented them from drafting Herbert. Drafting a QB in this draft should prevent them from drafting another in 2023 if the prospect is there.
Haven't seen Pickett, but there is only moderate buzz about him - I have read both good and not so good. Only saw Corral once and meh. Willis I did like, I would spend a 2nd on him. Not sure he makes it to he 2nd round, though.
The obvious comp for Willis is Jordan Love
We're drafting a QB in rd 1 with the acceptance that he could be a good backup QB in 2022 while many good QB's will become available in 2023?
Drafting a backup QB in round 1 for a rebuilding team is acceptable?
If you in re build and drafting a QB in round 1 it has ot be with conviction that he will be a star.
Willis is 6’1, 225.
Allen is 6’5, 240.
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Huge physical ability, but very raw. Can the Giants tease that talent out of him the way Buffalo has with Allen? Seems doubtful.
Willis is 6’1, 225.
Allen is 6’5, 240.
I think Terps might mean by arm strength and the way Willis runs. Willis has a howitzer on his shoulder. And he runs hard and is not afraid of contact. In fact, he seems to relish contact.
But size wise, Allen is a much bigger for sure.
We're drafting a QB in rd 1 with the acceptance that he could be a good backup QB in 2022 while many good QB's will become available in 2023?
Drafting a backup QB in round 1 for a rebuilding team is acceptable?
.
Drafting a QB in round one who winds up becoming a backup isn't acceptable, but it is often a reality. Maybe more often than not.
I feel like a team should draft a QB if they evaluate him to be worth it. If the results on the field prove that their evaluation was wrong, they draft or acquire another one.
What they shouldn't do is say, "We need a QB, and we have the ability to pick him, but I like the QB who may or may not be in next year's draft better."
Nobody is particularly good accurate at guessing which QBs are going to be good in the NFL. Not fans, not media, not GMs. There is so much evidence of this. Look at the QBs in any draft. Look at the pre-draft assessments and rankings. Look at who the top 10 QBs in the league are. People are TERRIBLE at predicting which QBs will be good/bad.
There are only 10-15 QBs in the world at any given time who are "good enough". It's crucial to have one of these QBs. A good QB is worth 5-10 times a good player at another position.
Given the value of the QB position and the uncertainty of QB success, the correct approach is to draft QBs until you get one who is good. Draft. Try them out for 2-3 years. Then either keep or draft again.
Blah blah blah..
Unproven sports cliche.
That said, I don't love Pickett or Corral in the top 15, at this point.
That said, I don't love Pickett or Corral in the top 15, at this point.
Exactly.. though if they feel Pickett is the guy, they should take him.
Ours would not qualify as being off the drawing board.
You may be right but bad OLines + rookie QBs + speed and complexity of game = developing bad habits and slower learning curve.
Even accepting your point, bad Olines will often stunt a young QBs development.
But, when/if they find the right QB you gotta pick him and run, put a plan together to deal with roster weaknesses, etc.
What happened to Burrow? Why wasn't he ruined, after getting demolished and tearing an ACL?
There is no evidence for the ruined QB narrative, but it gets bandied about like it's fact.
I don't believe it one bit.
What happened to Burrow? Why wasn't he ruined, after getting demolished and tearing an ACL?
There is no evidence for the ruined QB narrative, but it gets bandied about like it's fact.
I don't believe it one bit.
I agree that a bad OL is never a reason to pass on a QB prospect you think can win big, but the best QB prospect of the past two decades retired before he was freaking 30 because of injuries caused by his team's failure to build a line.
I’d rather take a shot with a project like this than spend a one of the top ten picks. I don’t see how you take a QB in the top ten in today’s NFL if you are not planning on starting him.
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We're drafting a QB in rd 1 with the acceptance that he could be a good backup QB in 2022 while many good QB's will become available in 2023?
Drafting a backup QB in round 1 for a rebuilding team is acceptable?
.
Drafting a QB in round one who winds up becoming a backup isn't acceptable, but it is often a reality. Maybe more often than not.
I feel like a team should draft a QB if they evaluate him to be worth it. If the results on the field prove that their evaluation was wrong, they draft or acquire another one.
What they shouldn't do is say, "We need a QB, and we have the ability to pick him, but I like the QB who may or may not be in next year's draft better."
When would you know the QB is "worth it?"
You've even had SY say this year during the season the jury is still out for Jones.
The point is- you are kidding yourself if you think in year 1 you are automatically going to know if "THE QB is worth it" when in fact you still have one of the worst OL's in all of football.
What they should definitely do is look at 2023 QB's. That's the only really smart play here. Your way we are going to have our finger stuck up our ass for the QB you just drafted in 2022 until 2024 or beyond similar to Jones.
Given the value of the QB position and the uncertainty of QB success, the correct approach is to draft QBs until you get one who is good. Draft. Try them out for 2-3 years. Then either keep or draft again.
This philosophy is the same dopey philosophy you hear from posters like Terps.
The point is you don't give a shit about "today's business," right?. You don't give a shit about one other player on the team other than the QB or any coach you hire or have on staff, right? .
And most importantly you are saying "FUCK YOU" to the fans that go to the games, right? Because as you know some QB's after 2 3 years do get better even if they aren't elite but your strategy is to dump them?
What good coaches and players are going to want to play for you / to come to the giants knowing that in year 2 or 3 you are back to rebuild drafting another Darnold?
They want assurances that you are trying to win yet your philosophy is always rebuild until I get the elite QB which you may not get for 10 years.
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It is more likely that Carr was just a bad QB.
What happened to Burrow? Why wasn't he ruined, after getting demolished and tearing an ACL?
There is no evidence for the ruined QB narrative, but it gets bandied about like it's fact.
I don't believe it one bit.
I agree that a bad OL is never a reason to pass on a QB prospect you think can win big, but the best QB prospect of the past two decades retired before he was freaking 30 because of injuries caused by his team's failure to build a line.
+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
Producer is right to point out that you really can't assume that David Carr would have been a stud but for his OL.
The flip side is that he might have been a stud if not for his OL. It's just undetermined either way. It's possible that the OL ruined Carr. It's also possible that Carr would have been a bust, regardless of OL.
Either way, there are QBs who have weathered garbage OLs and developed in spite of the lack of protection.
It might just be an element of a QB's rookie trait composition to inform whether a prospect can survive a rebuilding roster or whether they need a very favorable scenario in order to develop and succeed.
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Given the value of the QB position and the uncertainty of QB success, the correct approach is to draft QBs until you get one who is good. Draft. Try them out for 2-3 years. Then either keep or draft again.
This philosophy is the same dopey philosophy you hear from posters like Terps.
The point is you don't give a shit about "today's business," right?. You don't give a shit about one other player on the team other than the QB or any coach you hire or have on staff, right? .
If you don't have a quality QB you basically don't have a competitive team. So, I'm mostly with Jerry.
Hell, I would draft a QB every year even if I had one a good one. Try to find a diamond in the rough and mold him into an asset. It's a great way to possibly add more picks in the draft or even set yourself up with a new QB at a cheaper cap cost if you don't want to pay the current guy.
But all paths should be explored for improving the position - draft, trades, free agency and even UDFA.
If the Giants were smart, which is a huge leap these days, once the season ends for the Raiders, I am calling Mayock/ Davis to check in on the availability of Carr. One year left on his contract at $20M would be a nice lease with an option to buy...
Go Terps is right that you shouldn't be afraid to draft a QB 2 years in a row. But you don't draft the first one thinking you might need to draft another. A top ten QB has to be one you think is going to be Mr Right, not Mr Right for now.
At the moment, nobody is pointing to any of the QBs in this year's draft saying he is Mr Right. They all seem to be Mr Right for now simply because of the desire to get rid of Daniel Jones.
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Hell, I would draft a QB every year even if I had one a good one. Try to find a diamond in the rough and mold him into an asset. /quote]
will have to save this for future use. You will be one of the first to criticize when we select a QB who is a shot in the dark vs drafting someone else who could have added value to our roster immediately.
And the Giants have enough picks to do it this year if they want.
[quote] In comment 15532837 giantstock said:
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In comment 15532132 Jerry in_DC said:
If you don't have a quality QB you basically don't have a competitive team. So, I'm mostly with Jerry.
Hell, I would draft a QB every year even if I had one a good one. [/quote
I know you do. Which is why I disagree with you nearly all the time. I say this with respect-- without animosity-
You don’t give a shit about the fans that go to the games because you would keep drafting a QB every year which means the team won't attract Free Agents (Because what good Free Agents are going to want to be a part of your experimental world?). What good coaches are going to want to work for you if after every year you insist on dumping a QB for another. Maybe some of the elite raw but young QB’s won’t want to play for you.
If you have a young QB but a bit raw with a ton of talent why would nay want to sign with you? You’re more than likely going to give up on them in year 1. And tell me one successful coach that has ever come out and expressed your philosophy? Maybe there is-- you got any names that I can see the quotes of successful coaches and GM's that have employed your strategy?
And there are so few elite QB's you could be drafting a Qb for 4 straight years - and ta that time everyone is in revolt of your philosophy because you've wanted 1ts round picks on QB's that you dumped after 1 yar.
Never mind the QB's you would evaluate to be good in year 1 but then end up sucking in year 2.
No one has done your philosophy because no one in their right mind thinks that football is a one player sport in the manner you do.
You can make these claims on BBI because you aren't accountable. No one has ever done your Philosophy I believe because they are accountable. And I think your football acumen is pretty bad. After all you were one pushing Glennon. Anyone can make a wrong call but I think you make some outrageous calls and in this case
I think in part you say these things because you know no one will ever do them so you can’t be proven wrong. SO in summary – your talk is brave but it’s nothing more than “Fantasy GM.” You can start a new strategy game.
What I most disagree with you on is that you seem to think football is a one player sport.
Besides that, Why would you draft a QB when you cant protect him. There is not 1 QB in this league that would be successful playing behind this so called O-Line.
If the Giants don't draft and when I say DRAFT I mean both 1st round picks the 2nd round pick and our 3rd round pick O-Line and Specifically LT ad RT's all of them. 99% of O-linemen that can play Tackle can play Guard successfully. Not all Guards and Centers can slide into the tackle position and be successful.
Yae Yae I know a lot of you guys are going to say "This guy is clueless BLAH BLAH BLAH.
If this O-line doesnt get fixed this season it is going to be at the minimum 5 years until the Giants are any good.
Thism game isnt won by the Superstar WR it isnt won by some Superstar DE or CB. It is won in the trenches it always has been and always wioll be.
Think about this, that Superstar WR isn't worth the paper the 75 million-to-100-million-dollar contract is written on, if the QB is running for his life 1 second after the ball is snapped. Without at least 2 to 3 seconds for the WR to run his route and the QB to set his feet and throw the ball what good is the Superstar WR.
Yes Im serious and I could care less about anything else this team may or may not need.
We have arguably one of the best if not the best RB in the league that is getting hit before he even makes the LOS. If he does make it to the LOS he runs into a wall of bodies because there is no crease let alone a hole for him to get past the 1st level of defenders.
Also how do we even know what DJ is capable of? He is either running for his life or he is getting sacked, hit or his throwing arm is getting touched enough to make his passes fail. Not only that but the Pass Rush isnt coming from just 1 area of the line it is coming from every area of the line either at the same time or consecutive plays.
Now Im no fan of DJ, I have taken into account the O-Line, I have taken into account the lack of having a healthy stock of Wr's, so those excuses are moot. What I cant see in DJ is tasht "IT FACTOR" there were a few not many but a few games this season where if he had taken the team and put themteam on his back, we would have won those games. There were 2 of them (Please Dont Ask Which 2 because this entire season is one huge disappointment to me and every game seems to be a continuation of the weeks before. But I do recall 2 of them where if DJ just put the team on his back and scored the walk off TD we would have won them. HE FAILED TO DO THAT this season. So Like I said I do not see that "IT FACTOR" in him
As far as next season unless we sign a proven VET QB This team has no other choice but to stick with DJ because the QB coming out of College this year are all perenial Backups and DJ with the Little Experience he has is MUCH BETTER than they are.
Note (IMO DJ is going to end up being another Perenial Backup in this league) The only thing he does well is He throws a BEAUTIFUL ACCURATE DEEP BALL. And who knows with an O-line he may actually be a Winni ng QB in tghis league ( I Just Dont see It in him Thus Far)
Kitchens has one offense and it is the same no matter who he is facing or who is at the helm. A 6’1 210lb QB will be carted off the field.