ND Safety, Kyle Hamilton. Would you consider him with the Giants 1st pick? Crazy, I know, but I might. Not just the numbers but watching him play. The numbers? 6'4", 220, 4.4. Quick twitch, reads O's like a pro, hits like a truck. I'd hate to be the QB who has to complete passes with him in the defensive backfield. With he and McKinney? LIGHTS OUT!
Is there such a thing as a shut down safety?
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I can't disagree. But then there's the thing about BPA. Frankly I'd be surprised if the first 5 picks aren't some combination of OL, DL/ER & DB in this particular draft.
And we should definitely keep drafting for need.
It has been a major benefit to our roster for the past decade.
Ok, @Mustanglover_, we get it. You can retreat to your cave now.
Agree 1000%
I’m surprised this question is even asked..
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If we're seeing better return on our investment on the defensive side of the ball, then why not invest your resources there?
Ok, @Mustanglover_, we get it. You can retreat to your cave now.
Surely you jest?
I'd probably take Ed Reed if he was there at 5 so I want to hear just how good he really is, or isn't.
I'm biased, I'm familiar with him and his family. Good folks. Kyle can handle NYC.
I'd probably take Ed Reed if he was there at 5 so I want to hear just how good he really is, or isn't.
If he's Ed Reed or Ronnie Lott then you consider picking him at #5 or trade out of the slot because somebody will pay a lot to get him.
We cannot walk out of this draft without a few high quality oline.
We must rebuild the oline. For those of you who want a new QB, maybe even drafting one this year or next, they have no chance and can be ruined or injured if we do not build an oline.
I like Toney, but the pick should have been an online and if we didn't like the value at that point we should have a traded down again.
For the record: it would be great if an OL was far and away the top graded player available when we pick. But if that isn't the case you go with the more talented player. People want to shout about need, well that's how you end up with the Ereck Flowers and Justin Pughs of the world.
With the pass rush we have, even they can't cover for 10 seconds
And this isn't exactly an argument for Hamilton per se but for building the roster in general. There's not a single exceptional player on this roster right now. Not a one. That absolutely has to change regardless of what the biggest need is.
Nobody is a can’t miss player. See: Saquon Barkley. You don’t take a safety this high in the draft unless the team is ready to win now. The Giants already have 2 good safeties.
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To fix the online but we have two first round picks. If he’s a true can’t miss difference maker you pick him.
Nobody is a can’t miss player. See: Saquon Barkley. You don’t take a safety this high in the draft unless the team is ready to win now. The Giants already have 2 good safeties.
There are plenty of can’t misses in history. Drafting Oline for the sake of it is how you end up with Ereck Flowers. I’m not advocating for Hamilton but it
Shouldn’t be dismissed.
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In comment 15533383 cokeduplt said:
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To fix the online but we have two first round picks. If he’s a true can’t miss difference maker you pick him.
Nobody is a can’t miss player. See: Saquon Barkley. You don’t take a safety this high in the draft unless the team is ready to win now. The Giants already have 2 good safeties.
There are plenty of can’t misses in history. Drafting Oline for the sake of it is how you end up with Ereck Flowers. I’m not advocating for Hamilton but it
Shouldn’t be dismissed.
Nobody is a can’t miss. They all have to go make themselves. Go look at the Ed Reed draft. HOF safety drafted in the late teens by the Ravens. Bryant McKinney was drafted high in the 1st round. I would rather the Giants have the pro bowl OT than the HOF safety because safety is the least important position in todays NFL defense and a HOF safety adds exactly zero wins to this team right now. Safety is a position that you add that puts you over the top. Not one that you build around anymore.
We gotta take the best players. Period.
We gotta take the best players. Period.
BPA does not always apply. Do you think if the BPA was a RB that they should take a RB? We all saw how that has worked out. BPA does not always apply especially when both lines are broken. You cannot be competing this league with a horrible OL, pass rush, and QB.
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I can’t believe some of us here are still saying things like just take OL or just take DL.
We gotta take the best players. Period.
BPA does not always apply. Do you think if the BPA was a RB that they should take a RB? We all saw how that has worked out. BPA does not always apply especially when both lines are broken. You cannot be competing this league with a horrible OL, pass rush, and QB.
Ok I’d rather have Ronnie Lott than Ereck Flowers. Your logic is horribly flawed.
We gotta take the best players. Period.
Especially since we’re no where close to competing.
A good GM and coach can make it work. I doubt Hamilton will be available with our pick anyway, I think he’s going to the Jets.
But if you have Kyle Hamilton as a top 4 player in the draft and Evan Neal as the 10th best player, you take Hamilton every time. And then with the other pick, take the best player again. If we go defense, defense with our first two picks, is anyone going to be mad? No. We need great talent on this team. If Hamilton and Stingley are considered superior talents, you take both of them.
This is the bottom line
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In comment 15533433 ryanmkeane said:
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I can’t believe some of us here are still saying things like just take OL or just take DL.
We gotta take the best players. Period.
BPA does not always apply. Do you think if the BPA was a RB that they should take a RB? We all saw how that has worked out. BPA does not always apply especially when both lines are broken. You cannot be competing this league with a horrible OL, pass rush, and QB.
Ok I’d rather have Ronnie Lott than Ereck Flowers. Your logic is horribly flawed.
You’re not guaranteed Ronnie Lott at all. I’d rather whiff trying on an OL than I would whiff on a meaningless safety/slot corner. This team does not have the luxury of drafting a safety not after spending a 2nd round pick and investing money in another one. It’s a gross misuse of draft capital and a decision that a horrible GM like Dave Gettleman would do. You want the same trash results? That’s what it would be.
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This team needs talent
This is the bottom line
Wrong. Absolutely wrong. If a QB was the BPA do you think the Jags would take him? Nope. If KC somehow had the 1st pick and a QB was the BPA are they taking a QB? Nope. Just look at the Saquon Barkley pick. It’s evidence enough to use a combination of BPA and need at the same time.
The point is - if your team sucks - you need to draft the best football players.
If the Giants went to the SB twice in a row and lost each time because they didn’t have a pass rush then yeah, you might consider the edge rusher over another position.
The entire team besides the left tackle and the safety cannot be considered part of the long term plan. Draft the best fucking players and be done with it.
However, if he’s mid tier and you’ve got an all world athlete on defense sitting there for you, you take him instead.
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In comment 15533454 ajr2456 said:
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This team needs talent
This is the bottom line
Wrong. Absolutely wrong. If a QB was the BPA do you think the Jags would take him? Nope. If KC somehow had the 1st pick and a QB was the BPA are they taking a QB? Nope. Just look at the Saquon Barkley pick. It’s evidence enough to use a combination of BPA and need at the same time.
Then u trade down in those scenarios QB is different
The point is - if your team sucks - you need to draft the best football players.
If the Giants went to the SB twice in a row and lost each time because they didn’t have a pass rush then yeah, you might consider the edge rusher over another position.
The entire team besides the left tackle and the safety cannot be considered part of the long term plan. Draft the best fucking players and be done with it.
So you’re suggesting giving up on a promising young safety in McKinney or sitting Logan Ryan who is making big bucks and is clearly one of the best players and a captain on this team? The pick makes absolutely no sense at all. They’re going to be picking most likely 5th at this point. That means at the very worst they may be picking 4 spots off their top player on the board, which Hamilton won’t be. You’re not talking about reaching for a player 10 picks off the player. This is the perfect scenario to disregard BPA and go with the combination of BPA/need.
If Hamilton is the grade on the board you pull the trigger, just make sure who is ever grading has a clue.
All thing being equal (meaning equal grades for am OT vs a safety) then sure, take the lineman. You could even make the argumen to take the lineman despite the safety having a marginally better grade. But if there is a significant difference you take Hamilton. You keep saying it doesn't make sense and that they aren't in position to draft the BPA. The exact opposite is true. They are in no position to draft for need. As stated earlier that's how you end up with guys like Flowers and Pugh.
If Hamilton is the grade on the board you pull the trigger, just make sure who is ever grading has a clue.
This is a horrible argument on 2 levels. #1 the Cowboys pass rush was absolutely an area of need and so was a LB that could play well in coverage. #2 you can never have enough pass rushers. Ever hear anyone with football knowledge say you can never have enough safeties? Nope
All thing being equal (meaning equal grades for am OT vs a safety) then sure, take the lineman. You could even make the argumen to take the lineman despite the safety having a marginally better grade. But if there is a significant difference you take Hamilton. You keep saying it doesn't make sense and that they aren't in position to draft the BPA. The exact opposite is true. They are in no position to draft for need. As stated earlier that's how you end up with guys like Flowers and Pugh.
Flowers and Pugh were not even bad picks. They were a product of the Giants inability to build up players. Both of those picks could have been successful on this team with good coaches who were able to identify how to get the best out of their players. That draft was extremely weak and Pugh was not that bad of a pick. Flowers, as many scouts said, should have been moved to guard. He’s an above average guard now. Pugh is an above average guard as well.
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actually strengthens the argument to draft a safety. He's is by no means someone you don't draft over the top of.
All thing being equal (meaning equal grades for am OT vs a safety) then sure, take the lineman. You could even make the argumen to take the lineman despite the safety having a marginally better grade. But if there is a significant difference you take Hamilton. You keep saying it doesn't make sense and that they aren't in position to draft the BPA. The exact opposite is true. They are in no position to draft for need. As stated earlier that's how you end up with guys like Flowers and Pugh.
Flowers and Pugh were not even bad picks. They were a product of the Giants inability to build up players. Both of those picks could have been successful on this team with good coaches who were able to identify how to get the best out of their players. That draft was extremely weak and Pugh was not that bad of a pick. Flowers, as many scouts said, should have been moved to guard. He’s an above average guard now. Pugh is an above average guard as well.
So you’d pick Erick Flowers over Jamal adams if both are available at 5?
Glad you’re not the gm
He can play deep safety, in the box and he can cover tight end and slot WRs really well.
If you have a chance to draft an impact player, you do it. Hamilton is a top 5 talent in this draft and probably closer to 1 than he is 5.
Is safety the most valuable position? No. But Hamilton is more than a safety- he creates turnovers (highly valuable) and makes plays (PBU's, TFL's, etc) that get the defense OFF THE FIELD on 3rd down- that was a huge issue for the Giants for a majority of this season and is valuable no matter where the guy lines up. And Hamilton, by the way, will line up everywhere- nickel, deep safety, in the box, as a blitzer, etc.
I'd run to the podium if he is there at the Chicago pick.
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clearly there is some nuance needed - such as - if you have Patrick Mahomes you aren’t taking a QB.
The point is - if your team sucks - you need to draft the best football players.
If the Giants went to the SB twice in a row and lost each time because they didn’t have a pass rush then yeah, you might consider the edge rusher over another position.
The entire team besides the left tackle and the safety cannot be considered part of the long term plan. Draft the best fucking players and be done with it.
So you’re suggesting giving up on a promising young safety in McKinney or sitting Logan Ryan who is making big bucks and is clearly one of the best players and a captain on this team? The pick makes absolutely no sense at all. They’re going to be picking most likely 5th at this point. That means at the very worst they may be picking 4 spots off their top player on the board, which Hamilton won’t be. You’re not talking about reaching for a player 10 picks off the player. This is the perfect scenario to disregard BPA and go with the combination of BPA/need.
Having a guy of Logan Ryan's caliber on your team should absolutely not prevent you from drafting a top prospect at that same position. That would be like if the Cavs passed on Mobley because they had Jarret Allen.
Coughlin was the coach when Pugh was drafted. So it's Tom's fault Pugh couldn't stay healthy or be a good leader and accept playing where the coach felt he was best served?
Flowers neglected playing elsewhere. He KNOWS he can't play LT on other teams. No one would accept it. He is now forced to move to G because of it. He's also a JAG. Above average my ass. That's why WFT and Miami kept playing hot potato with him.
This would be by far my favorite scenario!
This draft is deep with very good OL into the mid rounds that can start for us and be significant improvements over what we have now.
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In comment 15533555 j_rud said:
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actually strengthens the argument to draft a safety. He's is by no means someone you don't draft over the top of.
All thing being equal (meaning equal grades for am OT vs a safety) then sure, take the lineman. You could even make the argumen to take the lineman despite the safety having a marginally better grade. But if there is a significant difference you take Hamilton. You keep saying it doesn't make sense and that they aren't in position to draft the BPA. The exact opposite is true. They are in no position to draft for need. As stated earlier that's how you end up with guys like Flowers and Pugh.
Flowers and Pugh were not even bad picks. They were a product of the Giants inability to build up players. Both of those picks could have been successful on this team with good coaches who were able to identify how to get the best out of their players. That draft was extremely weak and Pugh was not that bad of a pick. Flowers, as many scouts said, should have been moved to guard. He’s an above average guard now. Pugh is an above average guard as well.
So you’d pick Erick Flowers over Jamal adams if both are available at 5?
Glad you’re not the gm
It’s the GMs job to be able to properly identify the OL talent which Reese and Gettleman were obviously horrible at but in no way would I have ever take Jamal Adams. You think he’s the difference of any wins on that Seattle team? I’d rather whiff trying to fix the OL than take a meaningless safety. Safety is a position of luxury like RB. You go and get them 3rd round or later or when your team is playoff caliber and ready to take the next step. Neither apply to the Giants.
The GM is responsible for identifying talent. The talent was and is there with both Flowers and Pugh. Both have been playing at above average levels now for the past several years. Both were taken as tackles by the Giants front office and both are in fact guards. Whether Flowers refused to move to guard while he was here is besides the point. The talent was there and it is now working in the NFL. This team would be night and day better right now if those were the Giants 2 starting OGs. Id rather have an above average Guard on a bad team than a stud safety. You cannot build around a safety. Safety and RB are the least important positions on either side of the ball. They don’t matter if you have horrendous line play.
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Taking Hamilton and Dean with a second round OT and signing Laken Tomlinson if he hits the market. There’s multiple ways to improve the OL.
This would be by far my favorite scenario!
This draft is deep with very good OL into the mid rounds that can start for us and be significant improvements over what we have now.
Mine as well and I’d feel the same if Dean was gone and they took Lloyd from Utah.
Excellent point about there being multiple ways to improve the line and it should start with FA before the draft.
However, the Giants need to build from the inside-->out here in this draft.
If you want to start a thread about it, be my guest.
He's been much better in Arizona than he was here. On top of the health issues he was a bit of a primadonna who whined about being asked to switch positions. And on a side note, his Thanksgiving party video is the absolute height of douchey bro culture. Irrelevant to the topic but always one of the first things I think of when I see him.
Hamilton, Stingley, Ojabo, Jameson Williams, outside the top 10: Booth, McCreary, Lloyd, Green, Garrett Wilson
Later on I like both Drakes from USC, there's a bunch of really good DBs in Battle, Hill, McDuffie, Gordon, Brisker, Gardner, Bryant
Notice, not many OL or ILB on the list. grin. Find them in round 3 and later.
Hamilton, Stingley, Ojabo, Jameson Williams, outside the top 10: Booth, McCreary, Lloyd, Green, Garrett Wilson
Later on I like both Drakes from USC, there's a bunch of really good DBs in Battle, Hill, McDuffie, Gordon, Brisker, Gardner, Bryant
Notice, not many OL or ILB on the list. grin. Find them in round 3 and later.
So what you're saying is we should gear up for a particularly intense "value vs need" debate season???
Hamilton, Stingley, Ojabo, Jameson Williams, outside the top 10: Booth, McCreary, Lloyd, Green, Garrett Wilson
Later on I like both Drakes from USC, there's a bunch of really good DBs in Battle, Hill, McDuffie, Gordon, Brisker, Gardner, Bryant
Notice, not many OL or ILB on the list. grin. Find them in round 3 and later.
I have a similar list. Nobody’s talking about Jameson Williams but I’d love to see him in blue, as would any QB
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In comment 15533568 Doubledeuce22 said:
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In comment 15533555 j_rud said:
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actually strengthens the argument to draft a safety. He's is by no means someone you don't draft over the top of.
All thing being equal (meaning equal grades for am OT vs a safety) then sure, take the lineman. You could even make the argumen to take the lineman despite the safety having a marginally better grade. But if there is a significant difference you take Hamilton. You keep saying it doesn't make sense and that they aren't in position to draft the BPA. The exact opposite is true. They are in no position to draft for need. As stated earlier that's how you end up with guys like Flowers and Pugh.
Flowers and Pugh were not even bad picks. They were a product of the Giants inability to build up players. Both of those picks could have been successful on this team with good coaches who were able to identify how to get the best out of their players. That draft was extremely weak and Pugh was not that bad of a pick. Flowers, as many scouts said, should have been moved to guard. He’s an above average guard now. Pugh is an above average guard as well.
So you’d pick Erick Flowers over Jamal adams if both are available at 5?
Glad you’re not the gm
It’s the GMs job to be able to properly identify the OL talent which Reese and Gettleman were obviously horrible at but in no way would I have ever take Jamal Adams. You think he’s the difference of any wins on that Seattle team? I’d rather whiff trying to fix the OL than take a meaningless safety. Safety is a position of luxury like RB. You go and get them 3rd round or later or when your team is playoff caliber and ready to take the next step. Neither apply to the Giants.
Yes safeties are meaningless. Lott, Reed, Atwater, Dawkins, Polamolu, Earl Thomas, all were non integral parts of their teams success. Pugh and Flowers help their teams much more.