The Giants are in the unfortunate position of not just needing to augment some positions, but many. And while OL deservedly gets most of the attention, WR which was supposed to be "solved" by the addition of Toney and Golladay, hasn't been. Toney can't stay or the field, and Golladay has fizzled. Never one to get great separation, whether Jones and improved blocking will allow him to get into sync sufficiently with his QB to get him the ball in the tight windows he appears to require is an open issue.
Shep is on his way out, and the bad hands which were a problem for Slayton in school are back, whereas his college track speed is nowhere in evidence.
But there are so many needs to address, I can't say, yeah, go out and draft a stud WR. But in keeping with trying to add BPA, game breaking play makers, there are some WR's that should be looked at. This guy has caught my eye, taller, lean but strong burner with good hands and routes, Jameson Williams from Alabama. If still there in the 2nd, a consideration?
Obligatory Highlight Video - (
New Window )
Gone in the first 10, you think?
Even if it all works out perfectly, and Golladay really is a top red zone receiver, and Toney is really a top shifty slot player, you still need the guy who can torch a secondary. Williams is that guy. Giants still need more weapons to win a title, no matter who is playing QB, no matter how good the line is. Barkley cannot be in the long term plans. 3 good weapons is a bare minimum to have a top group.
They seem to get hurt a good amount. They don't catch all that many passes. I never see them scoring TDs. They are expensive with respect to free agency or using high draft picks. And some of them are a pain-in-the-ass.
Until at least some of the above changes, the Giants should just say "NO" to any more Wide Receivers...
Wouldn't mind a Jeudy or Lamb on the Giants.
To give up on Toney is ridiculous for a round 1. If anything take a WR in round 2.
If you are going to draft a WR in round 1 then you better get an OL and not just hope you will find one in rounds 3-5.
Even if it all works out perfectly, and Golladay really is a top red zone receiver, and Toney is really a top shifty slot player, you still need the guy who can torch a secondary. Williams is that guy. Giants still need more weapons to win a title, no matter who is playing QB, no matter how good the line is. Barkley cannot be in the long term plans. 3 good weapons is a bare minimum to have a top group.
We’ll also need a good TE.
Yup. Take the best talent. Williams figures to be a bit higher rated than perhaps some of the other OL guys not named Neal or Ekwonu
I’m on board with him as the pick with either of our picks.
Forcing line picks is also not the way. This is a multi-year rebuild. Get one ore two this year if the value is there, but the giants need game changing talent, go draft that.
I’m no pro scout but Jameson Williams looks like that to me.
[quote] There is no way he is making to the 2nd round. The Giants don't just have a QB issue or just an offensive line issue. The Giants have an offensive talent issue. As in, there is no clear offensive talent, outside of Andrew Thomas, going forward.
Even if it all works out perfectly, and Golladay really is a top red zone receiver, and Toney is really a top shifty slot player, you still need the guy who can torch a secondary. Williams is that guy. Giants still need more weapons to win a title, no matter who is playing QB, no matter how good the line is. Barkley cannot be in the long term plans. 3 good weapons is a bare minimum to have a top group. [/quote
You mention that we have a slot and a Red Zone guy. But you are brushing over the OLINE with a miniscule comment. We don't have the following:
1--- A RT
2A--- One Guard (I guess you live with Lemieux and Brederson for the time being)
2B An Offensive Center
3-- A Backup Tackle
***In regards to 2A and 2B - If the idea is to live with the combo of Lemieux and Brederson AND Price you've just pushed the issue the OL back again like you've done every year. As a result, you've learned nothing.
The main issue is that the Giants have 5 subpar defective players in the OL. SO we're going to fix it by drafting a WR in Round 1? How does that make an iota of sense unless you are going to have solid plan of getting other OL without getting on your knees and praying that ALL OF THE rounds 3-5 will hit.
AT the very least you have to try to get two OL with one in 1st or early 2nd round and at least 1 very early in the 3rd.
Quote:
a WR or RB (not named Jerry Rice or Jim Brown, respectively) in the top half of Rd 1 would be an example of how not to rebuild...
Forcing line picks is also not the way. This is a multi-year rebuild. Get one ore two this year if the value is there, but the giants need game changing talent, go draft that.
I’m no pro scout but Jameson Williams looks like that to me.
How is getting top rated OLinemen "forcing OL picks?"
And how many years are we going to say this before we actually start to get "GOOD" OL?
How is getting top rated OLinemen "forcing OL picks?"
And how many years are we going to say this before we actually start to get "GOOD" OL?
Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to come away with some good linemen but if Cross and Neal are gone, I don’t see anyone else worth #5. Or if we get one of those two at 5 then I’m ok going playmaker next. Giants have multiple picks and this is a multi year rebuild
I don’t feel our defensive personnel is that bad. It’s good enough to win games with a competent offense.
[quote] There is no way he is making to the 2nd round. The Giants don't just have a QB issue or just an offensive line issue. The Giants have an offensive talent issue. As in, there is no clear offensive talent, outside of Andrew Thomas, going forward.
Even if it all works out perfectly, and Golladay really is a top red zone receiver, and Toney is really a top shifty slot player, you still need the guy who can torch a secondary. Williams is that guy. Giants still need more weapons to win a title, no matter who is playing QB, no matter how good the line is. Barkley cannot be in the long term plans. 3 good weapons is a bare minimum to have a top group. [/quote
You mention that we have a slot and a Red Zone guy. But you are brushing over the OLINE with a miniscule comment. We don't have the following:
1--- A RT
2A--- One Guard (I guess you live with Lemieux and Brederson for the time being)
2B An Offensive Center
3-- A Backup Tackle
***In regards to 2A and 2B - If the idea is to live with the combo of Lemieux and Brederson AND Price you've just pushed the issue the OL back again like you've done every year. As a result, you've learned nothing.
The main issue is that the Giants have 5 subpar defective players in the OL. SO we're going to fix it by drafting a WR in Round 1? How does that make an iota of sense unless you are going to have solid plan of getting other OL without getting on your knees and praying that ALL OF THE rounds 3-5 will hit.
AT the very least you have to try to get two OL with one in 1st or early 2nd round and at least 1 very early in the 3rd.
I didn't say draft Williams. I said he should be in play. There should be others in play too, such as Linderbaum, among several others. There are a lot of players the Giants need to be a complete team. I assume the giants will be going O-Line with their own pick, which is perfect if the value is there.
This is a thread about Williams, not the offensive line. I agree, the offensive line is the biggest problem on the team right now. The Giants should use the draft to try to fix it, starting now and going forward until it's done. I'm not worried about what the Giants look like next year, where there is no shot to be competitive. I'm worried about after that only.
Pick an offensive lineman and Williams in the first. Pick an offensive line and a top edge. Or pick Stingley if he's there. Or get a linebacker that can cover. Trade down if the right player isn't there. Look at whether any of the QBs have top potential with a reasonable risk profile. Cluster draft offensive linemen all draft if the value matches up. There are tons of routes to a successful draft this year. Just get the right players in here and start to turn this team around.
We will 99% be cutting Shepard, Slayton isn’t that great and is entering the last year of his deal. The only receivers we really have are Golladay and Toney. If Williams is Ja’Marr Chase 2.0 it makes a lot of sense to take him. With the caveat that you go heavy offensive line with most of not all of the picks before round 4.
Quote:
In comment 15535873 armstead98 said:
How is getting top rated OLinemen "forcing OL picks?"
And how many years are we going to say this before we actually start to get "GOOD" OL?
Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to come away with some good linemen but if Cross and Neal are gone, I don’t see anyone else worth #5. Or if we get one of those two at 5 then I’m ok going playmaker next. Giants have multiple picks and this is a multi year rebuild
Okay I'm with you.
I can see a scenario to take the WR at 5 (I expect Hutch and Thib are gone) if the Giants believe he is significant BPA. Then I’m okay if there is no value for an OL at 8, then I'm trading down (ofc Hutch and Thib on defense are gone) to get 2 OL and one Edge. That has to be the priority.
If you want to stretch one of the OL in the 3rd round, that is fine. But that is bare minimum. There are a minimum of 4 holes in this OL if you count backup Tackle.
It’s easy to say “get impact players” but the problem is this Giants team is so devoid of talent, every year a new major hole will pop up in which you become desperate to fill. Who would’ve thought after drafting a WR in Round 1 and paying so much for Golladay that WR would be a pressing need in this year’s draft?
OFC some had suspicions but that’s not the point. The point is when the Front Office is drafting a 1st round WR and getting a WR for big bucks in FA they would’ve expected/planned this position to be solidified.
The issue is that from year to year unless you build a core bench and pretty good/ to decent starters as well, then either through injuries or players underperforming the next year(s) more enormous enormous holes will continue to follow. As a result all you do is chase your tail.
Quote:
In comment 15535770 carousel said:
[quote] T
I didn't say draft Williams. I said he should be in play.
If he is "in play" it means you would draft him in the right situation.
I think there can be a right situation if you get some OL as long as your plan is ot ignore OL until round 3 or more.
Round 3 is a tweener for me imo. After that; it's close ot being "prayer."
What would you think of this draft?
1---OT -options - Neal or Cross
2--- WR - Jameson Williams
3--- Edge Drake Jackson
4--- Guard- options - Kinnard, Ingram, Salyer, Raimann
5-- Center - options - Patterson, Lindstrom (or other)
You would be super pissed for this?
Quote:
The top 10 picks need to be for premium positions OL or EDGE. That’s it.
What would you think of this draft?
1---OT -options - Neal or Cross
2--- WR - Jameson Williams
3--- Edge Drake Jackson
4--- Guard- options - Kinnard, Ingram, Salyer, Raimann
5-- Center - options - Patterson, Lindstrom (or other)
You would be super pissed for this?
Respectfully, Kinnard if you’re talking about the kid from Kentucky may be a late first or early 2nd round pick. Salyer will be in the 3rd round latest. I truly hope they double up on OL round 1, unless they feel a guy like Dean with the 2nd pick is the guy. Also, I think Green may have played some C? Cross and Green I’d be thrilled with. And I’m not going to say WR can’t have a huge impact look and Jefferson, Lamb etc. As of right now, this team has to find 4 starters on the OL long term. If they find 2 long term starters from this draft class, that’s a win and would have 3/5 of the long term line set. Bredeson might improve and be good enough next year to start and continue to improve. Don’t need 5 pro bowlers on the OL.
Quote:
The top 10 picks need to be for premium positions OL or EDGE. That’s it.
What would you think of this draft?
1---OT -options - Neal or Cross
2--- WR - Jameson Williams
3--- Edge Drake Jackson
4--- Guard- options - Kinnard, Ingram, Salyer, Raimann
5-- Center - options - Patterson, Lindstrom (or other)
You would be super pissed for this?
i would yes. if the best player by far is a WR they should look to trade down. this team as presently constructed has zero business picking a wr in the top 10
i would much rather ojabo then drake jackson
Quote:
a WR or RB (not named Jerry Rice or Jim Brown, respectively) in the top half of Rd 1 would be an example of how not to rebuild...
Forcing line picks is also not the way. This is a multi-year rebuild. Get one ore two this year if the value is there, but the giants need game changing talent, go draft that.
I’m no pro scout but Jameson Williams looks like that to me.
Nobody said force anything. Plenty of talent that isn't a WR or RB in round one. Also plenty of WRs in this draft...
That sentiment was lost on many here four years ago when Saquon Barkley was taken overall #2 by a team in massive need of a rebuild, no QB and hardly any longer-term core players.
Guess where we are again folks...
Quote:
In comment 15536074 GiantsFan84 said:
Quote:
The top 10 picks need to be for premium positions OL or EDGE. That’s it.
What would you think of this draft?
1---OT -options - Neal or Cross
2--- WR - Jameson Williams
3--- Edge Drake Jackson
4--- Guard- options - Kinnard, Ingram, Salyer, Raimann
5-- Center - options - Patterson, Lindstrom (or other)
You would be super pissed for this?
i would yes. if the best player by far is a WR they should look to trade down. this team as presently constructed has zero business picking a wr in the top 10
i would much rather ojabo then drake jackson
But Drake Jackson is there - rad above I included him - with pick number 3. I'm saying what if you get him with the 36th pick?
There are some mocks that don't have him taken in round 1.
That sentiment was lost on many here four years ago when Saquon Barkley was taken overall #2 by a team in massive need of a rebuild, no QB and hardly any longer-term core players.
Guess where we are again folks...
What would you think of this draft?
1---OT -options - Neal or Cross
2--- WR - Jameson Williams
3--- Edge Drake Jackson
4--- Guard- options - Kinnard, Ingram, Salyer, Raimann
5-- Center - options - Patterson, Lindstrom (or other)
You would be super pissed for this?
I do like Williams though. Many don’t like Shepard because of injuries, etc. But when he is on the field our offense typically plays better. He has to be replaced, and if you can replace him with an elite talent you do it.
Quote:
highest and best talent with our top 10 picks. However, that surely doesn't compute to WRs for this Giants team.
That sentiment was lost on many here four years ago when Saquon Barkley was taken overall #2 by a team in massive need of a rebuild, no QB and hardly any longer-term core players.
Guess where we are again folks...
What would you think of this draft?
1---OT -options - Neal or Cross
2--- WR - Jameson Williams
3--- Edge Drake Jackson
4--- Guard- options - Kinnard, Ingram, Salyer, Raimann
5-- Center - options - Patterson, Lindstrom (or other)
You would be super pissed for this?
Is this your Tier 1 and Tier 2?
Quote:
In comment 15536159 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
highest and best talent with our top 10 picks. However, that surely doesn't compute to WRs for this Giants team.
That sentiment was lost on many here four years ago when Saquon Barkley was taken overall #2 by a team in massive need of a rebuild, no QB and hardly any longer-term core players.
Guess where we are again folks...
What would you think of this draft?
1---OT -options - Neal or Cross
2--- WR - Jameson Williams
3--- Edge Drake Jackson
4--- Guard- options - Kinnard, Ingram, Salyer, Raimann
5-- Center - options - Patterson, Lindstrom (or other)
You would be super pissed for this?
Is this your Tier 1 and Tier 2?
What do you mean?
I figure 1st pick
5the Pick --- OT- If Neal not available nor the 2 Edges a solid pick could be Cross. You agree?
8th Pick --- WR- For this thread this discussion suppose Giants took Jameson Williams at 8. SO we got our Tackle at 5.
36th Pick --- Edge- Drake Jackson has a shot to be available at 36 from some of the mocks I see. If Giants get him at 36, that's pretty good, isn't it?
67th Pick--- Guard- I gave 4 options of Guards Or OT's that can possibly play guard) that might be available at 67. Getting one of these guys might be pretty good, right?
79th Pick-- Center- Possible that Patterson or Lindstrom might be available, right?
SO is this something to get pissed at? There's a strong chance you are getting a very good Tackle and a Starting Guard. Maybe the Center starts too. SO the OL has been improved.
Mock drafts of any value will not be clear until after the Combine they have it...
Mock drafts of any value will not be clear until after the Combine they have it...
So you agree with me then? That these picks would be fine? If they got these players then absolutely a WR at 8 such as Williams is fine, right?
But I suppose though what you're saying is that Jackson has no shot to slip to Giants to 36.
None of the 4 guards I mentioned have a shot to make 67.
And neither of the centers I mentioned have a shot to slip to number 79.
Is that what you're saying?
But you would definitely think that drafting Williams would be fine if we got these picks, right?
NY Giants need everything and everything.
This is a waste of time to debate other than to say we don’t need to pull WRs and RBs up any further in a very deep class of 250 guys that will be drafted...
NY Giants need everything and everything.
This is a waste of time to debate other than to say we don’t need to pull WRs and RBs up any further in a very deep class of 250 guys that will be drafted...
I told you a possible scenario that it might work and your 1st reply was certain players won't be available. Now you are backing off that saying you don’t know who will be available.
Part of the intent of this thread is you get the stud now and you can get other players in other rounds. If your only comment is “I don’t know who will be taken in later rounds,” the great. But at 1st you felt a need to put down the possibility of certain players being available.
It seems like you’ve set your opinion “no WR,” and anyone else that brings up the subject you don’t want to hear it. That’s fine. Then don’t reply to the thread. The thread creation was “speculative.” The purpose is “what if . . .”
Rebuild with the best players you can evaluate, but do it smartly. This isn’t...
This is why we can't have nice things.
JFC.
The college game is chock-full of WR talent every year. With good scouting, you can find them in every round. The league is littered with great WRs taken after the first round. It's a position where it's smart business to wait until later in the draft to find them. The supply easily meets the demand.
This is why we can't have nice things.
Why can't you take both an OT and a WR?
It’s not the same as picking a RB, WR is a premium positive, RB is not. It also doesn’t mean ignoring the OL either, the Giants have a lot of picks and there’s always next year and the year after that.
It’s not the same as picking a RB, WR is a premium positive, RB is not. It also doesn’t mean ignoring the OL either, the Giants have a lot of picks and there’s always next year and the year after that.
If it's a passing league, find a passer...
It’s not the same as picking a RB, WR is a premium positive, RB is not. It also doesn’t mean ignoring the OL either, the Giants have a lot of picks and there’s always next year and the year after that.
WR is more important than RB. But it's also a position with a good supply almost every year. And talent to be found on day 2 and 3 of the draft. Patience is a virtue with the WR position.
Quote:
And the Giants haven’t had a top tier WR since Nicks in his prime. If Jameson Williams is on the same level as Adams, Kupp, or Chase I’m all for it.
It’s not the same as picking a RB, WR is a premium positive, RB is not. It also doesn’t mean ignoring the OL either, the Giants have a lot of picks and there’s always next year and the year after that.
WR is more important than RB. But it's also a position with a good supply almost every year. And talent to be found on day 2 and 3 of the draft. Patience is a virtue with the WR position.
Same with RB to some extent (the latter two sentences).
Quote:
And the Giants haven’t had a top tier WR since Nicks in his prime. If Jameson Williams is on the same level as Adams, Kupp, or Chase I’m all for it.
It’s not the same as picking a RB, WR is a premium positive, RB is not. It also doesn’t mean ignoring the OL either, the Giants have a lot of picks and there’s always next year and the year after that.
WR is more important than RB. But it's also a position with a good supply almost every year. And talent to be found on day 2 and 3 of the draft. Patience is a virtue with the WR position.
It’s much easier to find good linemen late
Quote:
In comment 15536847 armstead98 said:
Quote:
And the Giants haven’t had a top tier WR since Nicks in his prime. If Jameson Williams is on the same level as Adams, Kupp, or Chase I’m all for it.
It’s not the same as picking a RB, WR is a premium positive, RB is not. It also doesn’t mean ignoring the OL either, the Giants have a lot of picks and there’s always next year and the year after that.
WR is more important than RB. But it's also a position with a good supply almost every year. And talent to be found on day 2 and 3 of the draft. Patience is a virtue with the WR position.
Same with RB to some extent (the latter two sentences).
With your initial question about taking Williams with number 8 - I am not for it but realize it can be done without throwing the remote.
But if you're taking Williams at 8 you should be thinking that he is CD Lamb or Ja Chase - and if he is-- the chance there is someone you can get in the latter rounds beyond round 2 is extremely slim.
SO those that are mentioning on here you can get a WR in later rounds is not what I think your intent was in this scenario, is it? Aren’t you expecting with the number 8 pick CD Lamb or Ja Chase?