I believe Giants brass is torn on what to do w Joe Judge bc of revolving door of coaches they’ve had in recent years. Have hesitation to move on bc they’d add to that revolving door. At same time I have heard a ton of frustration inside that locker room. Not a little, a lot
@jayglazer
Hell no
Maybe start with the realization that there is a revolving door not because you were impatient, but you are making decisions you are not qualified to make and so they will be wrong more often than they are right?
Not all heroes wear capes, but brown bags.
This is the thinking that runs a $4.5B organization.
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Not all heroes wear capes, but brown bags.
Lol, I love the fountain Pepsi image on the side of the bag.
While I agree with you. I can understand the hesitation. Because, what kind of coach will be attracted to a job with a team that has shown a quick trigger? Might make it really hard to find a good coach.
This is the thinking that runs a $4.5B organization.
It's a 4.5b enterprise run like the family deli
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You’ve made other boneheaded hires is a poor reason to keep him. This franchise is a disgrace. Fire judge, DG and your personnel department including you Chris and your nephew. Hire a team president and disappear
While I agree with you. I can understand the hesitation. Because, what kind of coach will be attracted to a job with a team that has shown a quick trigger? Might make it really hard to find a good coach.
Quick trigger? Judge is clearly not ready for this role. His decisions are awful.
The guys calling the shots are scared and indecisive.
Judge wasn’t ready.
Just make sure the next guy is. Problem solved.
How about we send them both to the glue factory... Make it happen Tisch.
This is the thinking that runs a $4.5B organization.
^This. The team and organization are already perceived as an out of control mess, but he's afraid that firing an incompetent coach will add to that perception? Not firing Judge is in fact more likely to add to that perception.
If they don't believe in him then fire him now. It's pretty simple.
The firing coaches every 2 years is not a reason to keep him
nor is capitulating to a blood thirsty mob a reason to fire him
Incomprehensible.
What happened previously has no bearing on what should happen now.
I really, really hope this is bad information.
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Not all heroes wear capes, but brown bags.
The guys calling the shots are scared and indecisive.
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He's basically decided to fire Judge but is hesitating solely on the basis that it will create the perception of a revolving door at head coach.
This is the thinking that runs a $4.5B organization.
It's a 4.5b enterprise run like the family deli
I don’t buy it - I think judge is already gone
Judge should be fired now, but I'm OK leaving that decision to the new GM.
If they don't believe in him then fire him now. It's pretty simple.
The firing coaches every 2 years is not a reason to keep him
nor is capitulating to a blood thirsty mob a reason to fire him
Tisch sees the light on this. And he understands how putrid this organization has become. I'm guessing he's willing to cut bait on Judge.
However, Mara, being Mara, can't bring himself to believe he made ANOTHER hiring mistake at a key position. He's 0 for his last 4 - McAdoo, Gettleman, Shurmur, Judge. Toss in Jones, which I'm certain he was huge part of, and he's 0 for his last 5. Well, 0 for his last 6 if you want to include SB.
So, he's very likely the holdout on this and will likely get the dove - Tisch - to cave.
Alas, I have the worst feeling Judge stays.
I do hope I'm wrong.
I'm willing to wager everyone he asked to line up two plays in a row and wave a big white flag. They should be. He embarrassed them worse than their poor at could ever embarrass themselves.
The truth is that even in naming a new GM and whatever unknown HC, that regime likely has 1 year to get it right before they are the next names on the chopping block. The majority of people will NOT want to give that pairing a chance to get off the ground and this will become a cycle.
This is why I believe Mara can’t afford to go either of those routes and has to go for the jugular. I don’t think they can afford to go with names like Judge or Graham or Bienemy or Martindale or whomever.
The obvious move here is to go after Harbaugh so aggressively that the only way he doesn’t come here is if he has to publicly refuse the offer. Meet his price. See if you can get him and Fangio together. That is immediate credibility. With a hire like that you expect to start competing next year and contending the year after. All I know is if I’m putting myself in Mara’s shoes that’s exactly what I’m trying to do right now.
If that doesn’t work I’d quickly move on to calling New Orleans to see if he can be had for some of those additional draft picks. New Orleans is no better off at the QB position than we are.
If those failed I’d be looking at Zimmer.
I would follow that order but at the end of the day, any one of those guys provides instant credibility that a first time hire just can not.
The truth is that even in naming a new GM and whatever unknown HC, that regime likely has 1 year to get it right before they are the next names on the chopping block. The majority of people will NOT want to give that pairing a chance to get off the ground and this will become a cycle.
This is why I believe Mara can’t afford to go either of those routes and has to go for the jugular. I don’t think they can afford to go with names like Judge or Graham or Bienemy or Martindale or whomever.
The obvious move here is to go after Harbaugh so aggressively that the only way he doesn’t come here is if he has to publicly refuse the offer. Meet his price. See if you can get him and Fangio together. That is immediate credibility. With a hire like that you expect to start competing next year and contending the year after. All I know is if I’m putting myself in Mara’s shoes that’s exactly what I’m trying to do right now.
If that doesn’t work I’d quickly move on to calling New Orleans to see if he can be had for some of those additional draft picks. New Orleans is no better off at the QB position than we are.
If those failed I’d be looking at Zimmer.
I would follow that order but at the end of the day, any one of those guys provides instant credibility that a first time hire just can not.
Sorry, typing so fast “he” in New Orleans being Payton of course.
Gotta go, the sooner, the better.
Probably any player or person who realizes he sucks at it.
The truth is that even in naming a new GM and whatever unknown HC, that regime likely has 1 year to get it right before they are the next names on the chopping block. The majority of people will NOT want to give that pairing a chance to get off the ground and this will become a cycle.
This is why I believe Mara can’t afford to go either of those routes and has to go for the jugular. I don’t think they can afford to go with names like Judge or Graham or Bienemy or Martindale or whomever.
The obvious move here is to go after Harbaugh so aggressively that the only way he doesn’t come here is if he has to publicly refuse the offer. Meet his price. See if you can get him and Fangio together. That is immediate credibility. With a hire like that you expect to start competing next year and contending the year after. All I know is if I’m putting myself in Mara’s shoes that’s exactly what I’m trying to do right now.
If that doesn’t work I’d quickly move on to calling New Orleans to see if he can be had for some of those additional draft picks. New Orleans is no better off at the QB position than we are.
If those failed I’d be looking at Zimmer.
I would follow that order but at the end of the day, any one of those guys provides instant credibility that a first time hire just can not.
Seconded. You want to fix this shit? Hire a real head coach. No more prospects.
Take a chance for once and go all in for Harbaugh. Force him to deny you.
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thrown this away over the month, or maybe even more specifically over the last 2 weeks. Up until then I thought you could have made a logical argument that for all his mistakes there was at least a pathway to year 3 of Joe Judge with a new GM/OC/QB. The problem is the majority of fans had already wanted him less than halfway into year 2. Not laying blame here, just saying, you guys act like there is no risk in throwing names at the wall and seeing who sticks for a replacement.
The truth is that even in naming a new GM and whatever unknown HC, that regime likely has 1 year to get it right before they are the next names on the chopping block. The majority of people will NOT want to give that pairing a chance to get off the ground and this will become a cycle.
This is why I believe Mara can’t afford to go either of those routes and has to go for the jugular. I don’t think they can afford to go with names like Judge or Graham or Bienemy or Martindale or whomever.
The obvious move here is to go after Harbaugh so aggressively that the only way he doesn’t come here is if he has to publicly refuse the offer. Meet his price. See if you can get him and Fangio together. That is immediate credibility. With a hire like that you expect to start competing next year and contending the year after. All I know is if I’m putting myself in Mara’s shoes that’s exactly what I’m trying to do right now.
If that doesn’t work I’d quickly move on to calling New Orleans to see if he can be had for some of those additional draft picks. New Orleans is no better off at the QB position than we are.
If those failed I’d be looking at Zimmer.
I would follow that order but at the end of the day, any one of those guys provides instant credibility that a first time hire just can not.
Seconded. You want to fix this shit? Hire a real head coach. No more prospects.
Take a chance for once and go all in for Harbaugh. Force him to deny you.
good idea - he may find the challenge enticing
There is absolutely no harm in trying at this point. We've been a joke for a decade and have gotten worse these past few years, not better.
Harbaugh is no spring chicken, but he's not extremely old, either. According to Google, he just turned 58 two weeks ago and obviously has a ton of energy as we've seen with him even in recent years in college.
Bring him in.
You need credibility here more than youth. Judge had a month to forget but again, let’s not forget he lost in the court of public opinion less than a year and a half into trying to build something here. Not going to blame the fans as the losing has accumulated, but you can’t build anything if you don’t give a young coach time. I don’t think NYG has that luxury anymore.
I know you’re referencing Zimmer and while he’s not my first choice, I would hire him at age 65 over the next unknown who would come in here and find his seat hotter than he’ll probably inside of year 1.
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It's time to focus on building something sustainable from the foundation up.
You need credibility here more than youth. Judge had a month to forget but again, let’s not forget he lost in the court of public opinion less than a year and a half into trying to build something here. Not going to blame the fans as the losing has accumulated, but you can’t build anything if you don’t give a young coach time. I don’t think NYG has that luxury anymore.
I know you’re referencing Zimmer and while he’s not my first choice, I would hire him at age 65 over the next unknown who would come in here and find his seat hotter than he’ll probably inside of year 1.
Zimmer is not the coach for a rebuild.
I'm guessing that was the goal with Judge. Heh.
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It's time to focus on building something sustainable from the foundation up.
I'm guessing that was the goal with Judge. Heh.
Exactly.
We need a modern coach.
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You’ve made other boneheaded hires is a poor reason to keep him. This franchise is a disgrace. Fire judge, DG and your personnel department including you Chris and your nephew. Hire a team president and disappear
While I agree with you. I can understand the hesitation. Because, what kind of coach will be attracted to a job with a team that has shown a quick trigger? Might make it really hard to find a good coach.
A 1st time NFL HC would jump instantly, that's who.
This is the thinking that runs a $4.5B organization.
It's the Pepsi generation. Running the clown show.
This is the thinking that runs a $4.5B organization.
It is incredible isn't it?
Agree. What more did anyone need to see one way or another? The offense is historically bad. The team is historically bad. Was Mara really swayed by a game against another lousy team out of the playoffs? Was Mara waiting to see another Rah Rah Joe presser? So bad. So pathetic.
Yep
This is the thinking that runs a $4.5B organization.
Go Terps, remember these people for the most part are given that money on a silver platter by the NFL football Gods.
I favor removing Judge, but Maras process is terrible on both sides of the argument. The question is - Is Judge the right coach for the next 5 years? I say no. But if you're reacting to anything other than that question, you're doing it wrong
I favor removing Judge, but Maras process is terrible on both sides of the argument. The question is - Is Judge the right coach for the next 5 years? I say no. But if you're reacting to anything other than that question, you're doing it wrong
+1
Steelers and Ravens would totally disagree...
If you keep Judge - you HAVE to overhaul the offensive side of the ball. Have to!
What kind of coaches are you going to attract to this lame duck situation?
It is worse than that. His fear is making a decision the fans will not agree with. He is hesitating because he put a few leaks out there and is waiting to take the temperature of the fan base to see what he should do. Unfortunately, he does not spend enough time reading this threads or he would have had his answer a long time ago.
Regarding his need to please the fans..
All you need to do is see how he handled Eli They decided to move on from him. They played Geno and the fans went crazy. Mara said "we did not think the fans would be so emotional". Then, rather than move on from Eli like we should, he decides to try an appease the fans by attempting to build around him...again.
I favor removing Judge, but Maras process is terrible on both sides of the argument. The question is - Is Judge the right coach for the next 5 years? I say no. But if you're reacting to anything other than that question, you're doing it wrong
The fans are a variable. IMV, a big variable. They consume the product. And if you don't pay attention to your customers, you are making a mistake. It's business 101.
Furthermore, Mara has stood before cameras at the end of these last four horrible seasons begging for patience from his customers. Pleading.
He's now the owner who cried wolf. He has NO credibility.
If you keep Judge - you HAVE to overhaul the offensive side of the ball. Have to!
What kind of coaches are you going to attract to this lame duck situation?
This is very true. What offensive coaches are going to come here when there's a good chance Judge is fired mid season and he has shown he's inept at coaching the offense?
It's this guy and this guy alone. How has he managed the team, how has he managed a staff, and how has he managed the game? 0-3. He had managed the press OK until the last month.
Sunk cost. Cut bait.
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It's time to focus on building something sustainable from the foundation up.
I'm guessing that was the goal with Judge. Heh.
Yes, and it was a bad hire. So, let's hire a 65 year old who was a middle of the road head coach. Brilliant.
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should be either an offensive guru or a defensive guru - Judge was neither and it showed.
Steelers and Ravens would totally disagree...
I mean...at least this approach is creative.
More creative than what I've seen out of the Giants offense for 6 straight games....
If you keep Judge - you HAVE to overhaul the offensive side of the ball. Have to!
What kind of coaches are you going to attract to this lame duck situation?
I’ve made this point as well. Why would a good OC want to come in here and get fired mid season? You need an entirely new offensive staff which is enough for me to just cut bait on Judge now. If you’re starting over offensively just do it with a new HC.
I agree, I also think that the new GM should already have been in place.
He thinks he is too smart for his own good.
It's obvious he is in way over head.
He must have really wowed Mara during the interview process.
That doesn't appear to be that hard nowadays either...
But who to replace them with is not easy and as we Giants fans know all too well, there is no guarantee it gets better any time soon.
we have good, smart people on this site alone diametrically opposed to who our next GM/HC should be... and whoever we hire there will be a vocal group calling for them to be fired 12 mos from now (maybe 18 mos) if we don't see immediate improvement, or if they decide to stick with Jones another year, or don't draft the player they want.
I don't know enough to predict who the right ppl are to turn this franchise around... assuming we make the change, I will be hopeful we get it right (by luck or by any other means) and we can start to be proud of this franchise again.
but one thing is for sure, BBI will be at odds over almost anything related to the Giants regardless... : )
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be torn on what to do with JJ. Just hire the right GM and let him relieve you of the responsibility that you shouldn't have in the first place!
I agree, I also think that the new GM should already have been in place.
Fire Gettleman today, no reason to wait on that end!
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In comment 15540497 JonC said:
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It's time to focus on building something sustainable from the foundation up.
I'm guessing that was the goal with Judge. Heh.
Yes, and it was a bad hire. So, let's hire a 65 year old who was a middle of the road head coach. Brilliant.
We tried to go the 'assured competence' route with Garrett and it blew up in our face. I actually like Zimmer but I'm a no on his hire too.
In fact, many here wanted to basically give Judge the "keys" and start phasing Gettleman out from the player personnel process altogether. Now he is just garbage and doesn't deserve another chance?
If you were so wrong about him being right, how do you positively know you are right now in wanting him dismissed?
It feels like something that would occur in the Biff Tannen alternate timeline in Back to the Future 2.
This is their chance to break the cycle and do things right. NYG did not wish to flow coaches after 2 years, but the man brought the situation on himself. I feel bad for him, but not so bad that this team has to flounder on his account.
If Judge is a good coach, he will learn from this this and eventually rebound. If NYG wishes to break the cycle they need to cease the opportunity and go all in on a GM candidate of stature and empower him to force meaningful change on an organization that has clearly lost its way.
Time to stop looking back and look boldly ahead for Christ sakes. Every fan knows this. The league knows this. Many within the building know this. But if the right people fail to see this --again-- then God help us. The consequences of NYG being this bad, this blind, this inept, for this long is a serious problem for the league.
It feels like something that would occur in the Biff Tannen alternate timeline in Back to the Future 2.
Never understood the hire.
If Flores is truly fired I'd hire him
Never panic NYG. Never work with a sense of urgency and above all else never let anyone see you act with desperation. It's much better to be perceived as one that didn't try to hire someone rather than one that did but was turned down. Fucking sad sacks.
All I ask is that they try for Harbaugh. Just try. At the very least it would tell us all that they only care about winning. But no, can't do that because Harbaugh doesn't say his prayers at the dinner table and goes off the Mara scripts.
Get ready for the safe route, even if it doesn't look safe. We know it's coming.
I had a lot of hope that DG would tell them to let go of this ‘family’ and ‘ loyalty’ image, and run it like a 21st century business it is. DISAPPOINTED.
I had a lot of hope JJ would coach the team like a 21st century football team, regardless of the level of talent. DISAPPOINTED.
I will continue to be disappointed as long as the first disappointment continues.
It feels like something that would occur in the Biff Tannen alternate timeline in Back to the Future 2.
I understand the frustration but let's not be dramatic. It happens all the time in the NFL. Every single one of these coordinator/first time head coaches is a major gamble. I'd love to see the numbers but for every one of them that works out, there's got to be at least between 5-10 that don't.
If you want to go crazy about a recent coaching hire, do so over the fact that we hired Shurmur who was a known failure as a head coach and yet they brought him in anyway.
Anyway, no sense in going backwards, but what I said above about these first timers is why they need to move mountains for a guy like Harbaugh or Sean Payton.
First - Hire a General Manager! Do not rely on Ernie Acorsi.
Second - Hire a General Manager!
Third - Let the GM decide on the coach for 2022.
The new GM will consider the following:
On field performance - obviously bad.
What is Judge's plan for the future?
Things I would ask Joe Judge:
How will YOU improve the offense?
If Judge says "get better players" then he should be fired.
Who will be the next OC? If Judge says Kitchens - Fire him.
What are YOU going to do to get off to a better start?
What are YOU going to do to improve game management?
Things I would ask the players
Locker room - are the players still drinking the Kool-Aid?
What is REALLY the mood?
What would you do differently so we could start winning?
What frustrates you?
Do you feel well prepared when you go on the field?
Personally, I am not as down on the Giants future. You fix the offense. You fix the team. The defense was generally well prepared and competitive. It needs to improve but it is not totally broken. It is hard to be a good defense when the offense is as bad as it has been.
You fix the offense by being able to run and being able to pass protect. That is a combination of scheme and players. Clearly need better o-lineman to address both issues. That is NOT Judge. The scheme was also bad, the play calling was bad, that is ultimately on Judge. He needs to ADMIT that and have a plan to get better.
You make the call on Judge after you get these answers. Maybe he was saddled with Garrett and would do things differently. If the players are behind him and he has the good answers then as GM I might keep him to see if he can turn things around with a better offensive line.
Judge is 10 - 23, which is a winning percentage of .303. He's the first Giants coach to lose 13 games in a season, including the last six. We scored seven TDs after the bye, at least three of which were in "garbage time."
Mara should just fire him and as many other people as possible, including Abrams and Petit.
We've had 10 years of terrible football and comically bad player personnel decisions.
It feels like something that would occur in the Biff Tannen alternate timeline in Back to the Future 2.
Before the Giants promoted Parcells in 1983, he had been a head coach for one season, a lackluster 3-8 season at Air Force in 1978.
The absolute definition of insanity. Tisch needs to step in big time and get the Mara's out of personnel.
BTW why is Mara meeting with Judge without Tisch?
I would tell Payton he can do whatever the hell he wants and let him pick the GM he wants to work with.
Sean Payton should get Coach of the Year votes. The Saints went 9-8 and played 4 different quarterbacks.
We didn’t know how to throw the ball after Jones went out and even before then we didn’t look so hot.