We have many, many threads on why Judge should go. Here's one to discuss why we should keep him. Whether you fully believe the argument or not, share your thoughts on the positives of Joe Judge or at least the negatives of letting him go. Why do you want to give Judge another shot in 2022?
Not weighing in myself but remember that few were truly calling for his firing before Jones's injury. Obviously, 6 weeks changed a lot given the now overwhelming call on BBI and elsewhere.
Not ideal but that is the way I would see this happening if it were to occur.
No real case to be made or except timing and availability, rather not make a change when you know you want to make one in a year
In terms of what Judge brings to the table himself? I haven't really seen much to support him. Being dealt a shitty hand isn't a reason by itself.
IMHO, there is no way to know if he should stay or go. I really have no idea. I do know, this team with the current roster and injuries as constructed, wouldn't go anywhere no matter who was coaching.
Be careful what you wish for, it may come true.
My thoughts too….. and I tried to think of one, I really did
Strictly on a football level, I don't think he's had a great situation here. I do think the level of effort overall has been ok. I was willing to see what he could do with someone other than Gettleman and a new OC/QB. I think the talent acquisition has generally improved since he was added to the mix.
However, in just the last 2 weeks he made himself toxic. The press conference after the Bears game and the give up plays against Washington will now live forever in NYG infamy and I see no way forward for him. This franchise will be an absolute sideshow if Joe Judge is brought back in any capacity. I will say I think some of these takes are a little over the top (a guy like Ryan Clark for example), but there is no defending what Judge has done since the Bears game.
That said, one of these unproven coordinators scare me almost as much as year 3 of Joe Judge. So many of these guys fail and with where this fanbase is right now, no one is going to be met with much patience and I can very much envision us winding up here again in 2 years with some guy not named Joe Judge. Unless we went for the big fish/instant credibility move which is what I think should be done right now. A guy like Harbaugh or Sean Payton.
both drafts were strong.
Pat Graham was a good hire who turned the worst D in team history into a functional unit.
Had he gotten permission for Daboll instead of Garrett it's hard to imagine things wouldn't be different.
unknown - do the players really like/respect him?
from new GM perspective a check mark in his favor may be that if year 1 tanks he takes the hit. Not the GM. So he buys an extra year for the new gm.
it would pain me to not fire him after those QB sneaks though. Those were loser calls. The loser cherries on top of far too many layers of loser cake this year.
allow him to work with a GM on a shared vision of roster, and he can win for the long term with that.
I dont agree with what i typed but that would be the only case that could hold at all
In defense of Judge - I’m going to post what arniefez wrote in the Mara thread after the 2019 season. You could argue Judge had the most difficult entry point for any NYG head coach.
arniefez : 12/31/2019 2:04 pm : link
After listening to John Mara and Gettleman is this.
The next head coach of the Giants has monumental obstacles to overcome to succeed.
Nothing that was said or shown in the last 24 hours debunks the fear that the Giants are a mom and pop shop loaded with trust fund nepotism and completely overmatched by much more sophisticated competitors.
The next head coach will have the Herculean task of bringing the Giants up to code in the 2020s.
This is a an old tired rudderless organization with no energy or enthusiasm in ownership or top management.
In order to succeed the next head coach is going to have to energize and modernize the entire operation while trying to win games. Good luck to him.
Seriously, it looked like he lost the team several weeks ago. I don't think that can ever be totally overcome. Then again, I could be wrong, like I was about Judge and this season.
I saw a LOT bad out of Judge. His team didn't play anywhere near the "smart, tough football" he said his teams would play. They were actually the opposite of that. Many of his players appear to have LOW football IQs. He made some truly odd sideling calls -- even before the two sneaks. He failed Press Conferences 101. He still has a lot to learn.
But I also know the following:
1. He's already under a guaranteed contract. They're going to pay him either way. Firing him now only appeases fans who want his head on a pike.
2. You cannot hire a new coach till you have the new GM. Period.
3. He was given absolute GARBAGE to work with from his GM, the scouting department, and its inbred leadership.
Literally less than 10 guys on this roster are worth a damn as NFL starters. No one on this team (who's up for a contract) is worth a second contract, including Barkley and Jones.
4. The OL was sub-par BEFORE they lost most of it to injury in the first few games. Then it got worse.
5. By all accounts Judge was saddled (by management) with Jason Garrett and his TERRIBLE offense (and perhaps with Colombo, too).
6.
He lost his starting QB.
His 2nd string QB sucked, and then he went down.
The 3rd string guy shouldn't be in the NFL.
His star RB looked lousy coming off an ACL injury
There was a shitload of projected starters on IR from early in the season.
7. NONE of the FA acquisitions lived up to their price tags or billing.
8.
His most consistent WR is always hurt.
His TE is a coach-killer
His play-making 1st round pick is always hurt.
It goes on and on. Frankly, I don't think Lombardi could have won with the current Giants roster under those circumstances.
Of course, no NFL team, coach, or player can make any public excuses. But I'm not in the NFL, and OF COURSE this shit contributed A LOT to this disaster this season.
I refer again to the interview NBA Warriors coach Steve Kerr did a recent interview with Jon Stewart said something that's seems blindingly obvious when you think about it. He said:
I almost became the Knicks HC when Phil Jackson was the GM, but when the Warriors came along, and they have Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Draymond Green . . . I talked to coaching friends of mine, and they all said the same thing: "Your TALENT is EVERYTHING in coaching." And I said, "but Phil Jackson is my guy." And one of my friends said, "which job do you think Phil would take?" And that got me. Phil took on the Bulls when he had Jordan and Pippen, and his career took off. Pat Riley takes the Lakers Job when he has Magic Johnson and Abdul-Jabbar. WE ARE ALL DEPENDENT ON OUR TALENT AS COACHES.
10. The other thing I don't know, (and neither do any of you) is what's really going on in the building.
Are there positives we don't see?
Did Judge change the culture?
Is there anything positive to build on?
Judge says YES, but how does Mara see that, and value it?
WE just don't know.
So Hopefully a new, impartial GM comes in, assesses and weighs the WHOLE situation. If he decides he'll ride with Judge for another year, (and decide then), I'm OK with that. If he doesn't like what he sees, and wants to fire Judge, I'm OK with that too.
At that point, he lost games we all knew he wouldn’t win: Dallas in Dallas, KC and Tampa on the road MNF.
He lost a game to a Denver team that is more talented but not unwinnable.
He had two bad losses to WFT and ATL.
He had three good wins: NO, LV (still a good win despite circumstances), Philly
He had one win he should have won: Carolina
Conventional wisdom says you hope to go .500 with QB2. When expectations were .500 from the start, maybe you reduce that to 2 wins in 6. He went 0fer.
Really bad timing that Jones went out one game after firing Garrett, robbing all of us the chance to see Jones with Kitchens.
Looking back, I see 2 major mistakes. Not having the team ready out of the gate and the comments about Shurmur and Rivera’s teams. The rest is just piling on.
The timeouts and game management (conservatism) is over blown. Being aggressive with that offensive skillset wasn’t a viable path to consistent success.
New GM is exciting. Let him decide. I just really want to see/hear Judges plan to rebuild the offense. If he’s fired we’ll never know.
Last thing, does a young fresh first time GM get more time than the young fresh first time coach Judge? Or do the pitchforks prevail again two years from now?
But he didn't cover himself in glory. His performance this year was brutal.
Now... even if that's true, it doesn't absolve him of:
* The team's offensive and defensive game plans stinking all year
* The majority of his coaches having zero NFL coaching experience
*The team (off, def and ST) making frequent mistakes and mental errors (which indicates poor preparation and practice)
* Not giving starters reps in the preseaon
* Bad in-game strategy (that at least cost the team an opportunity to win)
* Bad use of personnel (moving Gates to LG being the most catastrophic, but also barely using Toney, even on ST, early in the season)
* Lack of player accountability (Crossen making stupid personal fouls yet still seeing playing time)
I saw a LOT bad out of Judge. His team didn't play anywhere near the "smart, tough football" he said his teams would play. They were actually the opposite of that. Many of his players appear to have LOW football IQs. He made some truly odd sideling calls -- even before the two sneaks. He failed Press Conferences 101. He still has a lot to learn.
But I also know the following:
1. He's already under a guaranteed contract. They're going to pay him either way. Firing him now only appeases fans who want his head on a pike.
2. You cannot hire a new coach till you have the new GM. Period.
3. He was given absolute GARBAGE to work with from his GM, the scouting department, and its inbred leadership.
Literally less than 10 guys on this roster are worth a damn as NFL starters. No one on this team (who's up for a contract) is worth a second contract, including Barkley and Jones.
4. The OL was sub-par BEFORE they lost most of it to injury in the first few games. Then it got worse.
5. By all accounts Judge was saddled (by management) with Jason Garrett and his TERRIBLE offense (and perhaps with Colombo, too).
6.
He lost his starting QB.
His 2nd string QB sucked, and then he went down.
The 3rd string guy shouldn't be in the NFL.
His star RB looked lousy coming off an ACL injury
There was a shitload of projected starters on IR from early in the season.
7. NONE of the FA acquisitions lived up to their price tags or billing.
8.
His most consistent WR is always hurt.
His TE is a coach-killer
His play-making 1st round pick is always hurt.
It goes on and on. Frankly, I don't think Lombardi could have won with the current Giants roster under those circumstances.
Of course, no NFL team, coach, or player can make any public excuses. But I'm not in the NFL, and OF COURSE this shit contributed A LOT to this disaster this season.
I refer again to the interview NBA Warriors coach Steve Kerr did a recent interview with Jon Stewart said something that's seems blindingly obvious when you think about it. He said:
I almost became the Knicks HC when Phil Jackson was the GM, but when the Warriors came along, and they have Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Draymond Green . . . I talked to coaching friends of mine, and they all said the same thing: "Your TALENT is EVERYTHING in coaching." And I said, "but Phil Jackson is my guy." And one of my friends said, "which job do you think Phil would take?" And that got me. Phil took on the Bulls when he had Jordan and Pippen, and his career took off. Pat Riley takes the Lakers Job when he has Magic Johnson and Abdul-Jabbar. WE ARE ALL DEPENDENT ON OUR TALENT AS COACHES.
10. The other thing I don't know, (and neither do any of you) is what's really going on in the building.
Are there positives we don't see?
Did Judge change the culture?
Is there anything positive to build on?
Judge says YES, but how does Mara see that, and value it?
WE just don't know.
So Hopefully a new, impartial GM comes in, assesses and weighs the WHOLE situation. If he decides he'll ride with Judge for another year, (and decide then), I'm OK with that. If he doesn't like what he sees, and wants to fire Judge, I'm OK with that too.
Tremendous post!
As was the one from arniefez posted by Sean above.
It's amazing the perspective you can get when people aren't screaming and cursing their heads off.
both drafts were strong.
Was year 1 really successful? I think many here and in the FO gave too much credit to being in a division race in the worst division of the SB era. Add in the fact that 5 of the 6 wins came v backup QB's, I'm not ready to call it successful.
The 2020 draft was very good, 2 cornerstone players, and a couple of rotational players, but the jury is still out on 2021. Certainly getting the #7 pick this year has to be factored in, but how dependable will Toney be? I'm very optimistic about Ojulari, but other than that, I'm not so sure.
But he didn't cover himself in glory. His performance this year was brutal.
Exactly. He imploded in spectacular fashion and has exhibited an inability to both lead and manage.
I don't care if he shows players how to put on their uniform.
His feel for gameplanning, philosophies are really out of touch. It's apparent, while Graham is his friend, he has trouble getting good coaching talent to work for him. It's about quality of staff, not just quantity that matters.
He's not a head coach. Pure and simple.
Quote:
year 1 was successful.
both drafts were strong.
Was year 1 really successful? I think many here and in the FO gave too much credit to being in a division race in the worst division of the SB era. Add in the fact that 5 of the 6 wins came v backup QB's, I'm not ready to call it successful.
The 2020 draft was very good, 2 cornerstone players, and a couple of rotational players, but the jury is still out on 2021. Certainly getting the #7 pick this year has to be factored in, but how dependable will Toney be? I'm very optimistic about Ojulari, but other than that, I'm not so sure.
The problem with recent drafts is they fall victim to recency bias. Teams now play cheap talent quickly, but the real judgement on a draft is not until 4-5 years out.
I'm not ready to crown the last two drafts at all even though they appear to have developed couple of starters.
Totally agree with Year 1 postmortem. Expectations were incredibly low. The team started off real slow, played tough football middle of year, but also had some teams that clearly didn't take Giants seriously (Carl Banks even mentioned how Giants were a "get-right" team on many team's schedules). People overlooked how bad they nosedived in December thanks to the Eagles debacle and Judge's tough guy presser (which honestly I think has now come back to haunt him in a sense and makes him look hollow).
But he didn't cover himself in glory. His performance this year was brutal.
Do you mean 2020? Remember, there were serious investments made this offseason for 2021.
gives new GM time to bring in his people...as draft will be done using DG's people.
if Judge wins.....its a win/win
if Judge loses.....GM cleans house....also can get New QB as jones will start making too much $$$. His people on now on board, his coaches etc....and GM clock starts next year.
as it was brought up to my attention....the middle ground...where Judge improves and gets a decent record....9-8 loses in playoff etc....its gets bit stickier....but GM still can go in either direction....
the roster he inherited was so bad it couldn't withstand the injuries,
and for all we know he could have been screaming for OL but got rebuked by the owners brother and nephew.
Quote:
year 1 was successful.
both drafts were strong.
Was year 1 really successful? I think many here and in the FO gave too much credit to being in a division race in the worst division of the SB era. Add in the fact that 5 of the 6 wins came v backup QB's, I'm not ready to call it successful.
The 2020 draft was very good, 2 cornerstone players, and a couple of rotational players, but the jury is still out on 2021. Certainly getting the #7 pick this year has to be factored in, but how dependable will Toney be? I'm very optimistic about Ojulari, but other than that, I'm not so sure.
they got the Bears #1 which is already 4 picks higher than the pick they traded, the dolphins #3, the bears #4, ojulari, robinson looked good. Toney is obviously a big wild card but on the field he was dynamic.
Remember half the argument for 2020 is McKinney, who played less his rookie year than Toney. I wasn't a big fan of the Toney pick at the time but the talent was obvious enough that it became a defensible pick even if it doesn't work out.
minutes to go down and win the game..Some HC went brain dead that last few minutes...Example #2...Seahawks with a few seconds to go on the 1yd line..A few seconds to go..Somebody calls a pass play,instead of a rushing g play..Game over..Brady gets another ring..Would Seattle win the game if it was a rushing play? I do not know..I just think they would have a better chance at winning if they did..
The powers that be in NYG land, along with the new GM we all know and wanted, discover a genie bottle floating in the hackensack river and after rubbing it, Genie reveals one piece of info which is as follows:
There is not one single HC in this current pool of available candidates that will end up successful at the NFL level. But there is one coming in 2023 that will lead the Giants back to glory.
That's the only way I keep Judge. Fire him in January 23 and hire the winner.
IMHO, there is no way to know if he should stay or go. I really have no idea. I do know, this team with the current roster and injuries as constructed, wouldn't go anywhere no matter who was coaching.
Im not saying he stays or goes -But if your honest Judge has been behind the 8 ball from the beginning.
Comes to a team with a poor attitude and very little NFL talent. GM tries to rebuild his OL season one for the Yound Dan who is on his 2nd coordinator in 2 years. Decent FA signings and Draft -Team gets younger and gets key injuries on a thin team. Then covid stops any semblence of the team practicing and working
together. Team has a decent move at end of season but holes need to be filled.
Season 2 -FA signings to fill holes and add more weapons for Dan who was basically on his own. Draft missed opportunities but did add more talent. Into preseason lost key FA Signings and Key players. Team had very little time to practice together -Season starts devestating OL and D season ending injuries -Key weapons injured -All starters played together less than 8% of the season!
Who the fuck could win with a team like this? Now again I think Judge made some mistakes, some thatt could cost him his job -but this team needs an influx of talent everywhere except the secondary. DG failed spectacularly, never built the OL or added passrushers -big mistake. End of story..
Back to Judge - Even though there is no depth they played and won a couple of tough games but it was not enough. The team is always injured and usually at the top or the top of players lost the last decade.
2 second season.
Be careful what you wish for, it may come true.
This
People learn more from failures than their successes, perhaps this will be the case for Judge. Does he deserve another season? Maybe.
Next, the QB coach needs to be upgraded for Jones OR we find a good vet backup. Jones still has issues reading the defenses and knowing where his WRs are.
Jones still has issues reading the defenses and knowing where his WRs are.
-Interesting, Im curios Who told you this? Or is this your informed opinion?
IMHO, there is no way to know if he should stay or go. I really have no idea. I do know, this team with the current roster and injuries as constructed, wouldn't go anywhere no matter who was coaching.
Be careful what you wish for, it may come true.
Did you read the rest of his review?
"I will go on record now that the season is over saying there is no point in keeping Judge around. This team likely won’t be ready to compete until 2023 at the very earliest. He didn’t earn a thing. I would rather have the new head coach in ASAP, pair him with the new GM, and get this all-time losing culture out of the basement. Keeping Judge around may make the ownership feel loyal, warm, and fuzzy but barring an unlikely miracle of epic proportions, Judge will be out at this time next season. Why delay the inevitable? Why not let the new GM start from scratch rather than move backwards after a year? "
Both said the same thing -Strong arm and accurate, very smart. So im going to go with their assessment of Dan
Everyone needs to go their separate ways.
For them to turn it around would be one of the greatest statistical outliers in NFL history.
Mentioned McKinney, Alujlari, Ellerson The trade down to get 1st round pick -this is interesting info.
Then two things happened in incredibly rapid succession.
1. The Giants fired Jason Garrett.
2. Jones got hurt.
Jones was hurt in Kitchens' first quarter as coordinator. So now you have a playcaller calling someone else's terrible offense with a terrible backup quarterback and a terrible offensive line. The collapse may have been worse than expected... but it wasn't THAT unforeseeable, given that context.
So if you assume the following:
1. The backup QB situation was Gettleman's decision;
2. Jason Garrett's hiring came from ownership, and his firing backfired b/c of Jones' injury;
3. The press conference stuff is mostly noise/nonsense...
Then it's pretty straightforward that Judge has gotten a pretty raw deal here, and it's reasonable to hope he improves at the job in Year 3.
I would leave the decision entirely up to the new GM. But it's not crazy to give Judge one more year.
Who?
Then two things happened in incredibly rapid succession.
1. The Giants fired Jason Garrett.
2. Jones got hurt.
Jones was hurt in Kitchens' first quarter as coordinator. So now you have a playcaller calling someone else's terrible offense with a terrible backup quarterback and a terrible offensive line. The collapse may have been worse than expected... but it wasn't THAT unforeseeable, given that context.
So if you assume the following:
1. The backup QB situation was Gettleman's decision;
2. Jason Garrett's hiring came from ownership, and his firing backfired b/c of Jones' injury;
3. The press conference stuff is mostly noise/nonsense...
Then it's pretty straightforward that Judge has gotten a pretty raw deal here, and it's reasonable to hope he improves at the job in Year 3.
I would leave the decision entirely up to the new GM. But it's not crazy to give Judge one more year.
Joe Judge fired Garrett. It's his staff and his coordinator. And you can't blame the playbook on Garrett. He's the head coach and its his team!
Outside of the Eagles game ( where they threw 3 picks and still should have won), the Giants weren't competitive or in one game after the Raiders win. How can you possibly look past that?
Its insane to give this guy another year.
to Murmur's golf club
to dog piling in the mud.
Go Big Blue.
this whole operation was botched the day Mara/DG decided the best thing for eli manning would be a running back and not OL.
thats it. it was over from there. look at DG's drafting as a whole. a guy known for picking diamond in the rough OL came to NY and decided to not draft OL. ITS INSANE.
DG was known for being "cheap" in FA, letting older more expensive players walk. which was the big stain on him because guys like Deangelo Williams and Steve Smith hated him. but the panthers were in cap hell. it is what it is.
I'm still blown away that he came back to NY and completely changed his stripes. handing out huge contracts to mid level players. not investing in serious pass rushers. not taking OL in the mid to late rounds.
Judge got dealt a shitty hand and it was probably some of his own fault for accepting it. i don't think its fair to say a young guy who is obviously passionate about football who worked his way up two stellar programs is some clueless buffoon because he didn't live up to his press conference or didn't give the answers you liked after a loss.
Would have liked to see Kitchen’s offense with Jones, why? You have several posts indicating Jones sucks, so does Jones suck but he would have excelled in Kitchens offense. Where the majority of his plays are designed to run at unblocked defenders.
Tell me the logic in playing coward football, when you are already out of the playoffs. Who are you evaluating with the plays you run? Basically playing quit football on offense, and playing make them take a while to score defense