I really thought they had a 10 year coach here. I bought in 100%. Sad day, both for Judge and the hopes of a fan base who desperately need some indication that this thing is moving in the right direction.
yesterday's meeting with Mara and Tisch and today to make this happen? All eight GM candidates said "I am only talking to you if firing Judge is on the table?"
and force ownership to commit to him or fire him? Kind of an odd about-face, unless the beats were wrong about the Mara's leaving the decision to the new GM.
tear the band-aid off. The easy half is now done. The tough half is getting the family out of football ops. If that doesn't happen, the easy half was probably meaningless.
Judge embarrassed both the organization and the NFL with the back to back QB sneaks on Sunday. He further embarrassed the organization with that 11 minute rant after the Bears loss when he was talking about the team quitting under Shurmur (golf clubs in locker room) and "Vegas paying out early" on Giants games
"You play to win the game.. nobody wants to be part of kneeling the shit out to take a tie. You know what would make me lose my mind almost as much as that.. goal line personnel & a QB sneak on 3rd & 9 on the -5"
the assessment, or lack thereof, of the team's talent also speaks for itself.
Team showed some heart least year and I thought they would have improved given the additions made. Hard to stick with the leadership that got us to where we are today regardless of injuries. 2021 was two steps back after a half step forward in 2020.
that someone losing their job just instantly put me in a good mood. Fuck, I was deflated yesterday. Let's wipe the slate. Redesign, Rebuild and Reclaim what was once Giants Pride.
I'll bet a few GM candidates made it clear that they didn't want him
He embarrassed the Giant organization.
So happy that we can move forward now.
I pray that JM allows the new GM to restructure the Giants football operations top to bottom.
I'm told Joe Judge's assistant sent a text to his coaches tonight relaying the news saying, "I'm sorry to send this text, but Joe called me and he was let go. If you are around tomorrow, be in the office at 9am and he will meet with his staff."
Ive had a decent start to the year. My kids are healthy, I have a date with a new smoking 37 year old hottie at borgata for 3 days 2 nights coming up. Got a decent raise and bonus, I am busy leasing stores. gettlemen was fired...this...this is the best news yet! We had to clean house and it didn't even count if we still had Judge. Now it's really underway and maybe...just maybe we can start from scratch and rebuild. The GM job becomes so much more coveted now and our head coach will be so much better than Judge simply because no one was worse. good times boys!
I know some people (who I trust) who know Judge personally, and by those accounts he's a tremendously good dude.
I won't dance on his grave, but I think this parting of ways was warranted.
I wish him luck. He stepped into a really dysfunctional situation here with a terrible GM. I think he can become a quality HC.
I agree. In retrospect, despite the majority of the board being on board with the hire, Judge was the wrong hire and way over his skis in this dreadful situation.
Hopefully he gets a crack to coach a college program where I think he may be better suited.
Joe Judge has been relieved of his duties as head coach of the New York Giants, the team announced today.
"Steve (Tisch) and I both believe it is in the best interest of our franchise to move in another direction," said team president John Mara. "We met with Joe yesterday afternoon to discuss the state of the team. I met again with Joe this afternoon, and it was during that conversation I informed Joe of our decision. We appreciate Joe's efforts on behalf of the organization.
"I said before the season started that I wanted to feel good about the direction we were headed when we played our last game of the season. Unfortunately, I cannot make that statement, which is why we have made this decision.
"We will hire a general manager and that person will lead the effort to hire a new head coach."
On Monday, senior vice president and general manager Dave Gettleman announced his retirement following a 35-year career in the National Football League.
Mara and Tisch have already started the search for a general manager. Candidates will be announced after each interview is completed.
"This will be a comprehensive search for our next general manager," said Mara upon Gettleman's retirement. "We are looking for a person who demonstrates exceptional leadership and communication abilities, somebody who will oversee all aspects of our football operations, including player personnel, college scouting and coaching."
Added Tisch, "It is an understatement to say John and I are disappointed by the lack of success we have had on the field. We are united in our commitment to find a general manager who will provide the direction necessary for us to achieve the on-field performance and results we all expect."
and force ownership to commit to him or fire him? Kind of an odd about-face, unless the beats were wrong about the Mara's leaving the decision to the new GM.
What leverage would Judge have? He was under contract for 3 more years and clearly didn’t do anything in his first 2 to earn more control.
in the sense that a LOT of the problems with this organization predated him and go all the way back to the Coughlin era. A lot of the problems also have the last name Mara and Tisch.
I was one of the few people who HATED the hire, but I must admit I was fully on board after last season. Judge simply did a horrendous job this season in the things he’s fully in control of. Then he began this pattern of excuse making (e.g. headsets) and blame deflecting was was antithetical to the man I thought he was. Ultimately, the product on the field was unacceptable. The two QB sneaks were one of the lowest points in franchise history. He HAD to go after that embarrassment.
I hope for his sake that he gets another shot. He’s a young man. Best of luck to him.
I know some people (who I trust) who know Judge personally, and by those accounts he's a tremendously good dude.
I won't dance on his grave, but I think this parting of ways was warranted.
I wish him luck. He stepped into a really dysfunctional situation here with a terrible GM. I think he can become a quality HC.
Agreed! While I wanted the change, I feel bad for Judge and I think he could be successful if given another chance. It just wasn't in the cards this go round.
He should have taken the Mississippi State job instead of walking into Gettleman's burning building. Probably better suited for college.
Not seeing any of Gettleman's white knights riding into this thread telling people how unclassy they're being. Strange.
He should’ve taken the Giants job untethered to a terrible coordinator like Jason Garrett. He got to choose his DC and made a solid hire. He should’ve told Mara that he needed to sink or swim with his own people.
Joe Judge has been relieved of his duties as head coach of the New York Giants, the team announced today.
"Steve (Tisch) and I both believe it is in the best interest of our franchise to move in another direction," said team president John Mara. "We met with Joe yesterday afternoon to discuss the state of the team. I met again with Joe this afternoon, and it was during that conversation I informed Joe of our decision. We appreciate Joe's efforts on behalf of the organization.
"I said before the season started that I wanted to feel good about the direction we were headed when we played our last game of the season. Unfortunately, I cannot make that statement, which is why we have made this decision.
"We will hire a general manager and that person will lead the effort to hire a new head coach."
On Monday, senior vice president and general manager Dave Gettleman announced his retirement following a 35-year career in the National Football League.
Mara and Tisch have already started the search for a general manager. Candidates will be announced after each interview is completed.
"This will be a comprehensive search for our next general manager," said Mara upon Gettleman's retirement. "We are looking for a person who demonstrates exceptional leadership and communication abilities, somebody who will oversee all aspects of our football operations, including player personnel, college scouting and coaching."
Added Tisch, "It is an understatement to say John and I are disappointed by the lack of success we have had on the field. We are united in our commitment to find a general manager who will provide the direction necessary for us to achieve the on-field performance and results we all expect."
Link - ( New Window )
As someone who wrote news stories for a living, that could easily be done in five minutes. The last two thirds came from press releases yesterday.
I think he'd do well with recruiting and coaching younger people and his X's and O's knowledge could be put to better use.
For all of his knowledge of the game he seems to lack skills in strategy and being a tactician that he needs to either lesson the competition for or have coordinators that are both excellent in that regard.
He could probably be an NFL defensive coordinator too. Or like an assistant QC coach.
The only way he could succeed as an NFL head coach IMO is in a really good situation with a strong front office with excellent systems that could also convince him to drop his ego and play to his strengths.
But an agent for a number of NFL coaches said Scoen pressured this else he wouldn’t have taken the interview.
So schoen has to be the front runner otherwise Mara would never fire Judge.
Power play begins.
They’ve been in back channel talks with Schoen for weeks.
Oh good. I’m fine with Schoen if he’s good GM material but I hope he doesn’t bring Dabol or Frazier as our HC. They are good coordinators but I don’t know they are good HC.
its quite astonishing really. I think he was coming back. Then the PC. Then the pathetic game effort. Then the 2 QB sneaks. Dude really went off the rails.
RE: Greg hopefully he doesn't leave the building tomorrow
in the sense that a LOT of the problems with this organization predated him and go all the way back to the Coughlin era. A lot of the problems also have the last name Mara and Tisch.
I was one of the few people who HATED the hire, but I must admit I was fully on board after last season. Judge simply did a horrendous job this season in the things he’s fully in control of. Then he began this pattern of excuse making (e.g. headsets) and blame deflecting was was antithetical to the man I thought he was. Ultimately, the product on the field was unacceptable. The two QB sneaks were one of the lowest points in franchise history. He HAD to go after that embarrassment.
I hope for his sake that he gets another shot. He’s a young man. Best of luck to him.
Feel bad for a guy who did nothing and is walking away with millions. Any one on this board could have just as well.
I know some people (who I trust) who know Judge personally, and by those accounts he's a tremendously good dude.
I won't dance on his grave, but I think this parting of ways was warranted.
I wish him luck. He stepped into a really dysfunctional situation here with a terrible GM. I think he can become a quality HC.
I agree. In retrospect, despite the majority of the board being on board with the hire, Judge was the wrong hire and way over his skis in this dreadful situation.
Hopefully he gets a crack to coach a college program where I think he may be better suited.
+1 I think a college head coach would be the way to go for him.
So, leaving the decisions to the "football guy" don't include who the HC is. I am both delighted and a little annoyed.
Technically they did. They simply removed an obstacle to allow the new GM to hit the ground running. Does it really matter if the new GM fired or retained JJ? It's done now let's move onto more important decisions.
He embarrassed the organization the last couple of months
And I thought made a critical mistake by firing Garrett mid season, a mistake both for football and political reasons.
I’d stress the human side of this. He wasn’t sufficiently qualified, walked into an awful and highly politicized situation, and gradually came unraveled. I’m sure it’s been incredibly painful for him. Hope he gets back on his feet and starts the next phase of his career soon.
to admit, I didn't think they'd do it. I thought at most they'd leave it to the next GM, and that they would be inclined to hire one who would at least agree to keep Judge for another year. I was wrong.
This means we will at least be able to interview the best GM candidates. We also have two top 10 picks.
I also agree that the Maras and their family members must renounce any involvement in football decisions. We have to hope that their willingness to fire Judge means they will do so.
to admit, I didn't think they'd do it. I thought at most they'd leave it to the next GM, and that they would be inclined to hire one who would at least agree to keep Judge for another year. I was wrong.
I'm right there with you. I'm a bit stunned. Wonder what the turning point was in this saga.
Feel bad for a guy who did nothing and is walking away with millions. Any one on this board could have just as well.
Money is irrelevant to this conversation. People need to be put in position to succeed by their superiors. The organization has now failed four consecutive coaches after saddling them with many of the exact same problems. Judge needed to go, but he was swimming against the current the entire time.
"I said before the season started that I wanted to feel good about the direction we were headed when we played our last game of the season. Unfortunately, I cannot make that statement, which is why we have made this decision."
"I said before the season started that I wanted to feel good about the direction we were headed when we played our last game of the season. Unfortunately, I cannot make that statement, which is why we have made this decision."
John Mara
So if Judge had acted like a professional the last week or so and won the game with Fromm, he'd be coming back next year?
I really thought he was going to be the right guy. He said all the right things. Had the mentorship. I didn't even mind the special teams coach thing and thought that could be a positive. But similar to Handley and McAdoo, he never read the room. There is a way to deal with the team and the press and the way the team had injuries, but he came apart late in the season. The culture nonsense. Calling out a respected coach like Ron Rivera. All these things snowballed on him. Now, it's not all his fault, but he didn't help himself.
Last night on my BigBlueVCR account, posted the Ray Handley fight with Russ Salzberg. Russ said that Judge wasn't Handley, but the point was mainly was that incident happened midway in 1991. He came back in 1992 and it was a shitshow of Ray Must Go all season. It would have been Joe Must Go every game. He lost the fans, he lost the media, and it sounded like he was losing his team.
I'm 100% ok with the Giants just stripping it all down in 2022 and start it all over next year to build towards 2023 with a new coach and GM ,and likely a new QB.
This was needed, it sucks but years of half measures caught up with them. This is a good day for the NY future.
but probably the best move with a new GM coming in. We should have fired DG with Shurmur as it was obvious he didn't know how to build a team in today's NFL. I guess they weren't ready to clean house. Now, hopefully they bring in an outsider, let him pick the coach and transform the front office. And yes, they have to give the new guy time. Fans need to show some patience as well.
days to figure out they had to make this move, lol.
This is a business. Season ended Sunday. They met with judge Monday. Owners met and discussed today, and met again and fired him this afternoon. It's all good, dude, don't make more of it than it is.
The last 6 games made it almost impossible for Mara/Tisch
"I said before the season started that I wanted to feel good about the direction we were headed when we played our last game of the season. Unfortunately, I cannot make that statement, which is why we have made this decision."
John Mara
So if Judge had acted like a professional the last week or so and won the game with Fromm, he'd be coming back next year?
It's not the losing that did him in, it's the embarrassment. They would have pinned the losses on injuries. The embarrassment was impossible to dismiss.
I think the story is one of an abundance of false confidence
IMO the headset thing was both the first crack in his composure as well as an accelerant.
The more the heat turned up on him the more he turtled up on the field. And overcompensated for that turtling off the field. As it is he was too big of a turtle. The solution to having a struggling offense is not to be incredibly conservative, not unless your defense is WAY better than the one he had.
RE: If it quiets the negative bitching in this fanbase, Id support it
The next fucking team that does. And one will. Because everyone thinks they can make a shit situation work even though others have failed.
TONS of people would take the Giants jobs. Whether they're any good is a different matter. But it's a prestige job. And everyone thinks they can make a shit situation work even though others have failed.
The owners had to meet and discuss, as they do AFTER the end of EVERY season, and they had those discussions AFTER they heard from judge at HIS year end meeting. Don't look for shit just for the sake of finding shit.
RE: The last 6 games made it almost impossible for Mara/Tisch
So, leaving the decisions to the "football guy" don't include who the HC is. I am both delighted and a little annoyed.
I don’t get what you mean by this? They removed Judge to send the signal to all GM candidates that they will not be forcing Judge onto the next GM, I.e. it will be up to the next GM who the coach is. By leaving Judge in it likely was limiting the pool of candidates willing to take the job.
Hey if the next GM comes in and says “actually Judge should be the coach” I bet Joe will be happy to come on back. But I doubt that will happen.
I think he’d have to be one of the guys that’ll get an interview in a few weeks. He’s from the area too and I’ve seen comments that he’d love to Coach here, but I take those supposed comments with a grain of salt.
yesterday's meeting with Mara and Tisch and today to make this happen? All eight GM candidates said "I am only talking to you if firing Judge is on the table?"
What happened was Mara and Tisch had their own meeting today after they spoke to judge yesterday, just like they are supposed to. Or did you think they should have had the discussion with Judge in the room?
days to figure out they had to make this move, lol.
This is a business. Season ended Sunday. They met with judge Monday. Owners met and discussed today, and met again and fired him this afternoon. It's all good, dude, don't make more of it than it is.
thanks for pointing out when the season ended, lol. I wonder how the teams that managed to fire their coaches before lunch yesterday managed to pull off such a difficult trick!
All the people saying hire Flores, I say hiring your first choice GM is the priority - my choice is Schoen - and then let him find a coach. I'm not sure about Brian Flores.
have to think that means initial feedback they got around the league was that he was an impediment.
like others I was a Judge fan until the last couple weeks. He started making excuses and virtue signaling in a way that felt counterproductive. Losing habits.
Unlike McAdoo/Shurmur I actually think Judge should eventually get another chance and think he has the chance to be a good head coach. He has raw leadership ability just didn't have the experience to make enough good decisions (though he did make some).
This 'We can't keep firing coaches after 2 seasons' narrative is so fucking dumb. If the coach sucks, cut bait. No one gives AF once you get the right guy that the dudes before him were fired after 2 years.
I know! I completely thought we had the right guy at the end of last season. Was okay (not excited) to keep him for next year, until the press conference and the cumulative impact of his play calling. He coached as if he had no confidence in the team.
The ultimate irony is that many on the outside will misread his tenure. They'll think he failed for being an ultra hard-ass, but, in fact, he was a players coach to the point of being too soft.
I wish Joe Judge the best. I do think he's really smart and that he will use this as a learning experience. I was very excited by his promise, and I do think he worked at it very hard, but he was not yet ready to be a head coach in the NFL.
He should have taken the Mississippi State job instead of walking into Gettleman's burning building. Probably better suited for college.
Not seeing any of Gettleman's white knights riding into this thread telling people how unclassy they're being. Strange.
He should’ve taken the Giants job untethered to a terrible coordinator like Jason Garrett. He got to choose his DC and made a solid hire. He should’ve told Mara that he needed to sink or swim with his own people.
He had no guy, the one he wanted got hired elsewhere...
So long Timmy Tuffnuts - don't let that door hit ya......loozer.....
Thank you JJ.
You possibly got La Familia Mara to operate a pro football organization like a pro football business.
If that ends up being true, your hiring was worth it.
yesterday's meeting with Mara and Tisch and today to make this happen? All eight GM candidates said "I am only talking to you if firing Judge is on the table?"
They listened to his plan, thought about it overnight and decided they didn’t like what he was shoveling.
yesterday's meeting with Mara and Tisch and today to make this happen? All eight GM candidates said "I am only talking to you if firing Judge is on the table?"
Phones blew up with season ticket cancellations plus media coverage. The franchise was everybody’s dart board. I’ve never heard the phrase “clown show” used so much. Ever
What happened was Mara and Tisch had their own meeting today after they spoke to judge yesterday, just like they are supposed to. Or did you think they should have had the discussion with Judge in the room?
It's a load of horse shit that Gettleman was allowed to retire
yesterday's meeting with Mara and Tisch and today to make this happen? All eight GM candidates said "I am only talking to you if firing Judge is on the table?"
What happened was Mara and Tisch had their own meeting today after they spoke to judge yesterday, just like they are supposed to. Or did you think they should have had the discussion with Judge in the room?
Phones blew up with season ticket cancellations plus media coverage. The franchise was everybody’s dart board. I’ve never heard the phrase “clown show” used so much. Ever
I think he'd do well with recruiting and coaching younger people and his X's and O's knowledge could be put to better use.
For all of his knowledge of the game he seems to lack skills in strategy and being a tactician that he needs to either lesson the competition for or have coordinators that are both excellent in that regard.
He could probably be an NFL defensive coordinator too. Or like an assistant QC coach.
The only way he could succeed as an NFL head coach IMO is in a really good situation with a strong front office with excellent systems that could also convince him to drop his ego and play to his strengths.
He didn't know how to make war. Football is a wargame.
its quite astonishing really. I think he was coming back. Then the PC. Then the pathetic game effort. Then the 2 QB sneaks. Dude really went off the rails.
Don't leave out that at the after season meeting he told Mara he wanted to pick the GM, just in case he thought Mara had missed the point, I guess. Judge went out of his way to piss on Mara.
Mara learned something from the medium Pepsi debacle.
Let’s hope we get the smart football management folks in that can safely send John back to his parlor where he can enjoy his glass of brandy and cigar again.
I know some people (who I trust) who know Judge personally, and by those accounts he's a tremendously good dude.
I won't dance on his grave, but I think this parting of ways was warranted.
I wish him luck. He stepped into a really dysfunctional situation here with a terrible GM. I think he can become a quality HC.
Agree. The personal vilification is uncalled for and reflects poorly on the fanbase and some of the individuals on this site. I just don't understand why some resort to that kind of juvenile behavior.
RE: The last 6 games made it almost impossible for Mara/Tisch
to admit, I didn't think they'd do it. I thought at most they'd leave it to the next GM, and that they would be inclined to hire one who would at least agree to keep Judge for another year. I was wrong.
I'm right there with you. I'm a bit stunned. Wonder what the turning point was in this saga.
Ultimately, management didn't address the O-line, the pittance it was got injured, and Judge never had an answer for it.
So, leaving the decisions to the "football guy" don't include who the HC is. I am both delighted and a little annoyed.
Technically they did. They simply removed an obstacle to allow the new GM to hit the ground running. Does it really matter if the new GM fired or retained JJ? It's done now let's move onto more important decisions.
It matter because Mara did his job instead of passing the buck.
But I am glad the Giants made this move obviously. This is the best thing for the franchise going forward for sure.
What this team and Judge in particular displayed in the last 6 weeks made me question whether he had any idea what he was doing at all. He seemed completely clueless on the field and that press conference sealed it.
It's stunning how quickly things unravelled for Joe Judge. About 2 1/2 months ago John Mara said publicly he fully supported his coach. Less than a month ago, he seemed to fully back him, according to those inside the Giants building ..
... The tide against Judge really turned, I'm told, over the last two weeks. The team and coach had become a punchline and that was unacceptable.
Still, as of this morning, it appeared to many inside that the Giants would at least wait until a GM was in place to make a move ...
behind the Flores firing than we’re hearing about.
He is a hard ass. The owner wanted Tua, the GM sided with the owner, Flores wasn't very secretive with his belief Tua is not the guy. Actually similar to Judge he also had a lot of staff turnover and there was concern about that moving forward. The power struggle was going to get worse.
Apparently Flores pushed for Watson as well and the owner said no.
That said, two winning seasons in a row with the Dolphins is impressive. I think he's better off leaving now.
The NE style is tough to pull off w/o consistent winning...even then the act can wear thin.
"I said before the season started that I wanted to feel good about the direction we were headed when we played our last game of the season. Unfortunately, I cannot make that statement, which is why we have made this decision."
John Mara
So if Judge had acted like a professional the last week or so and won the game with Fromm, he'd be coming back next year?
I have no opinion on that.
I do take Mara at his word, though. He said he needed to feel good about the direction they were heading after the last game, and he didn't.
Feel free to point out John Mara's many shortcomings and inadequacies. But do not take away from a man what is his. Whatever his reasons, this was him doing his job, and making the right call.
It's stunning how quickly things unravelled for Joe Judge. About 2 1/2 months ago John Mara said publicly he fully supported his coach. Less than a month ago, he seemed to fully back him, according to those inside the Giants building ..
... The tide against Judge really turned, I'm told, over the last two weeks. The team and coach had become a punchline and that was unacceptable.
Still, as of this morning, it appeared to many inside that the Giants would at least wait until a GM was in place to make a move ...
Maybe the meetings he was suppose to have today with Mara didn't go well or they've been talking to potential GM candidates who have already exclaimed their preference.
I know some people (who I trust) who know Judge personally, and by those accounts he's a tremendously good dude.
I won't dance on his grave, but I think this parting of ways was warranted.
I wish him luck. He stepped into a really dysfunctional situation here with a terrible GM. I think he can become a quality HC.
Agree. The personal vilification is uncalled for and reflects poorly on the fanbase and some of the individuals on this site. I just don't understand why some resort to that kind of juvenile behavior.
I don't understand this whole personal vilification BS he's in the public spotlight and acted like an idiot. When celebrities act like idiots everyone is cool with it. Because he's a football coach we shouldn't say he's acting dumb? Give me a break. He acts like he's so tough, he of all people should be able to hear that he's acting like an idiot
"I said before the season started that I wanted to feel good about the direction we were headed when we played our last game of the season. Unfortunately, I cannot make that statement, which is why we have made this decision."
John Mara
So if Judge had acted like a professional the last week or so and won the game with Fromm, he'd be coming back next year?
It's not the losing that did him in, it's the embarrassment. They would have pinned the losses on injuries. The embarrassment was impossible to dismiss.
Right.It was untenable, for a number of reasons, the embarrasment is what made John Mara able to do it, even if he had to do it for other reasons. He just couldn't stay, right or wrong, deserved or undeserved. He had to go. The clown meme market was through the roof, no sign of slowing down either.
behind the Flores firing than we’re hearing about.
He is a hard ass. The owner wanted Tua, the GM sided with the owner, Flores wasn't very secretive with his belief Tua is not the guy. Actually similar to Judge he also had a lot of staff turnover and there was concern about that moving forward. The power struggle was going to get worse.
Apparently Flores pushed for Watson as well and the owner said no.
That said, two winning seasons in a row with the Dolphins is impressive. I think he's better off leaving now.
The NE style is tough to pull off w/o consistent winning...even then the act can wear thin.
Not only that but really treated his players badly, wouldn’t even say hello to them when they passed in hallways.
Pat Kerwin believes he was warned about this several times, but did whatever the fuck he wanted.
at the end of the day he wanted Daboll as his OC, but he couldn't get him. As a young 1st time head coach management foists Garrett on him. He should have pulled the plug on Garrett going into the season but he gave him a 2nd year and by the time he did can him he had effectively 1 game with an NFL caliber QB and they won. Then Jones is out for the rest of the year and the team hits the lowest low I have ever witnessed. Before he gets a chance to replace Garrett he's out as head coach and everyone is clamoring for his 1st choice as OC as the new Head Coach. I get it, but that doesn't mean I cant feel bad for him.
It's stunning how quickly things unravelled for Joe Judge. About 2 1/2 months ago John Mara said publicly he fully supported his coach. Less than a month ago, he seemed to fully back him, according to those inside the Giants building ..
... The tide against Judge really turned, I'm told, over the last two weeks. The team and coach had become a punchline and that was unacceptable.
Still, as of this morning, it appeared to many inside that the Giants would at least wait until a GM was in place to make a move ...
days to figure out they had to make this move, lol.
This is a business. Season ended Sunday. They met with judge Monday. Owners met and discussed today, and met again and fired him this afternoon. It's all good, dude, don't make more of it than it is.
thanks for pointing out when the season ended, lol. I wonder how the teams that managed to fire their coaches before lunch yesterday managed to pull off such a difficult trick!
I don't. They probably decided quite some time ago, wouldn't you think?
Further, an I mistaken, or does John Mara not say, every year, that they meet at the end of the year, discuss, and then make their decision as to what they do next? Not only that, Tisch says it as well. For my part, I assumed their standard procedure that they've followed for years was common knowledge. Hope I was able to help.
at the end of the day he wanted Daboll as his OC, but he couldn't get him. As a young 1st time head coach management foists Garrett on him. He should have pulled the plug on Garrett going into the season but he gave him a 2nd year and by the time he did can him he had effectively 1 game with an NFL caliber QB and they won. Then Jones is out for the rest of the year and the team hits the lowest low I have ever witnessed. Before he gets a chance to replace Garrett he's out as head coach and everyone is clamoring for his 1st choice as OC as the new Head Coach. I get it, but that doesn't mean I cant feel bad for him.
He really controlled his own destiny here. I think the pressure got to him and made him act so abberrant. It's the talking that did him in. He was like a drowning man out there.
I have nightmares about this. It would feel like hiring two guys with big fake moustaches named Domingo Gettlemanez and Jose Judgio.
Haha well done
Big no on Pioli for me too. Out of the league almost a decade. Yeah I'm sure he's kept in touch with friends in the business, but that's not the same as a candidate with hands on experience helping run a team in the modern age of analytics and scouting
yesterday's meeting with Mara and Tisch and today to make this happen? All eight GM candidates said "I am only talking to you if firing Judge is on the table?"
What happened was Mara and Tisch had their own meeting today after they spoke to judge yesterday, just like they are supposed to. Or did you think they should have had the discussion with Judge in the room?
Phones blew up with season ticket cancellations plus media coverage. The franchise was everybody’s dart board. I’ve never heard the phrase “clown show” used so much. Ever
That too. I bet judge pitching he wanted input on the next GM didn't help either. Or the fact Schoen wasn't stepping in the building with that hassle sitting there.
Either way, if they liked what he said and thought he was the guy, he'd still be here. Ultimately they lost faith in him.
than Ray Handley’s HCing stint. Just weird. Seemed like he was going to be a really good young coach and then wheels slowly came of the wagon; the wagon veered off the road, got out of control, and tumbled down a steep embankment.
He was hamstrung with a terrible GM and a flawed QB. Then he was overwhelmed by the pressure to win and sabotaged himself the last 6 games. The only coach I have seen who canned himself this badly was Bob Diaco at UConn. Joe had to go to attract GM candidates who want to start with a clean slate. Imagine if next season started out 0-4 or 0-5 again? Then what would we have done? This will be better for all involved. management, players and fans. Good luck Joe Judge.
And even his first season was okay enough, given the weakness of the roster. However, this season was an unmitigated disaster.
when his name first appeared as a candidate I pegged him as the dark horse, and was really happy when he got the job. This year, especially the last month, went so far off the rails I couldn't support him anymore.
Congrats everyone. Too good of a fanbase to have a coach like that.
Can you confirm that it was pressure from GM candidates that pushed this over the edge?
I've been busy but I'll ask around about the current list. I know many who dream of this opportunity already have their list of guys in mind. It would severely limit the pool of candidates and even the quality of candidates if ownership tried to force a coach who is clearly in over his head.
But you guys have to understand it's not just the coach. They want their own guys in the personnel department as well. Like-minded guys they know and trust.
I think the quarterback sneaks sealed his fate. But I still can't get over that scumbag Gettleman getting to ride off into the sunset ! He should have been publicly fired ! FUCK HIM AND HIS FUCKING SHITTY BOSTON ACCENT! Hope the GMEN finally get this thing rite !
I really like him and his enthusiasm. He just wasn't ready for prime-time. In a lot of ways he reminds me of Spags.
He ran into a perfect storm of ineptness starting in the Front Office (a GM who had lost his "mojo"), a nervous Nelly owner, incompetent coaching staff (and not-to-mention a ton of injuries).
So, instead of a John-Paul-Jones "hell with the torpedos, full speed ahead", he retreated into "let's just not lose"mentality - THAT is what (despite the players' loyalty, destroyed their belief they could win).
I just hope the next GM-combo doesn't take a wrecking ball to the place, the cupboard's not bare.
I really like him and his enthusiasm. He just wasn't ready for prime-time. In a lot of ways he reminds me of Spags.
He ran into a perfect storm of ineptness starting in the Front Office (a GM who had lost his "mojo"), a nervous Nelly owner, incompetent coaching staff (and not-to-mention a ton of injuries).
So, instead of a John-Paul-Jones "hell with the torpedos, full speed ahead", he retreated into "let's just not lose"mentality - THAT is what (despite the players' loyalty, destroyed their belief they could win).
I just hope the next GM-combo doesn't take a wrecking ball to the place, the cupboard's not bare.
He had a major say in all personnel decisions. Almost his entire coaching staff was hand-picked by him, mostly SEC coaches.
believe a coach could have such a nothing offense. Matched with a prevent D.
I'm relieved. I legitimately couldn't watch another year of a Judge-coached team. His style is an insult to the NFL.
Insult is a good word. By the end he was insulting the fans (whether on purpose or inadvertently) and completely embarrassing the franchize. He needed to go.
But I think Joe Judge will be a Head Coach again and will succeed. It’s going out on a limb, but I did see some positives to go along with his passion, or gift of gab.
1. He chose the right Defensive Coordinater
2. The team played hard for him all of last year
3. Watching his weekly YouTube show, you could see how detail oriented he was and was very clear in his teaching.
I think he was torpedoed by a few things.
1. Gentleman and this atrocity of a roster
2. Garrett and his archaic offense
Mara said he’s a young coach who will need time to succeed. His game management should have been further along in year 2. That’s my biggest issue…. The immaturity shown with the press these final 6 weeks was him buckling under the immense pressure of a crumbling franchise.
With all of that being said this had to happen in order to get all facets of the organization on the same page. Unfortunately Judge was working with the biggest dopes in football.
But I think Joe Judge will be a Head Coach again and will succeed. It’s going out on a limb, but I did see some positives to go along with his passion, or gift of gab.
1. He chose the right Defensive Coordinater
2. The team played hard for him all of last year
3. Watching his weekly YouTube show, you could see how detail oriented he was and was very clear in his teaching.
I think he was torpedoed by a few things.
1. Gentleman and this atrocity of a roster
2. Garrett and his archaic offense
Mara said he’s a young coach who will need time to succeed. His game management should have been further along in year 2. That’s my biggest issue…. The immaturity shown with the press these final 6 weeks was him buckling under the immense pressure of a crumbling franchise.
With all of that being said this had to happen in order to get all facets of the organization on the same page. Unfortunately Judge was working with the biggest dopes in football.
Judge was over his head. If you can't see it...
RE: RE: I may be the dumbest poster on this message board
But I think Joe Judge will be a Head Coach again and will succeed. It’s going out on a limb, but I did see some positives to go along with his passion, or gift of gab.
1. He chose the right Defensive Coordinater
2. The team played hard for him all of last year
3. Watching his weekly YouTube show, you could see how detail oriented he was and was very clear in his teaching.
I think he was torpedoed by a few things.
1. Gentleman and this atrocity of a roster
2. Garrett and his archaic offense
Mara said he’s a young coach who will need time to succeed. His game management should have been further along in year 2. That’s my biggest issue…. The immaturity shown with the press these final 6 weeks was him buckling under the immense pressure of a crumbling franchise.
With all of that being said this had to happen in order to get all facets of the organization on the same page. Unfortunately Judge was working with the biggest dopes in football.
Judge was over his head. If you can't see it...
Oh, I saw it. But I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets a second Head Coaching shot and succeeds.
Judge was out all along. Mara delayed so Gettleman could save some face and retire rather than being fired. And delayed Judge firing as a lame move to separate the two events.
Totally agree. The way Saban's staff turns over, and with pro coaches welcome, I suspect Judge will have an opportunity in Tuscaloosa anytime he wants.
But it won't be anytime soon. He's young, he's an expert bullshitter and he knows the right things to say.
He's not our problem anymore
No chance. He killed that the last month and a half and especially the last few weeks. He wasn't even a strong candidate to begin with. He was a rogue hire because he talked tough and told people what they want to hear in an interview, but didn't know how to achieve any of it.
Even now, I'd argue he's worsened as a coach because of this tenure. He needs a few years of rehab down at the college level as an assistant and maybe he can get a Division II job somewhere.
I don't think Belichick would even take him right now. He's got some radioactivity to him.
He’ll get another shot at an NFL job in the next five years. He has to rebuild both his CV and the perception of his throwing other coaches under the bud.
Judge reminds me of Marty Mornhinweg. He wins coin toss in OT & results to kick off the ball. Lions never get ball back & lose to Chicago. That was a national story.
I bet JJ ends up on some staff somewhere, but I doubt he ever gets a shot @ HC again in the NFL.
He's an expert bullshitter. Fast forward 10 years from now, Judge will still be young, he'll still have the gift of gab and he'll have some bullshit "I learned from my experience with the Giants."
I could see him getting another HC job. It just won't be anytime soon.
RE: I may be the dumbest poster on this message board
But I think Joe Judge will be a Head Coach again and will succeed. It’s going out on a limb, but I did see some positives to go along with his passion, or gift of gab.
1. He chose the right Defensive Coordinater
2. The team played hard for him all of last year
3. Watching his weekly YouTube show, you could see how detail oriented he was and was very clear in his teaching.
I think he was torpedoed by a few things.
1. Gentleman and this atrocity of a roster
2. Garrett and his archaic offense
Mara said he’s a young coach who will need time to succeed. His game management should have been further along in year 2. That’s my biggest issue…. The immaturity shown with the press these final 6 weeks was him buckling under the immense pressure of a crumbling franchise.
With all of that being said this had to happen in order to get all facets of the organization on the same page. Unfortunately Judge was working with the biggest dopes in football.
Very much agree. Particularly with the buckling at the end. Once it was clear gettlemen was done they turned on him and it was too much. It’s been a feeding frenzy for 2 months. Absolutely an organizational failure.
Well hope springs eternal
RE: RE: I may be the dumbest poster on this message board
But I think Joe Judge will be a Head Coach again and will succeed. It’s going out on a limb, but I did see some positives to go along with his passion, or gift of gab.
1. He chose the right Defensive Coordinater
2. The team played hard for him all of last year
3. Watching his weekly YouTube show, you could see how detail oriented he was and was very clear in his teaching.
I think he was torpedoed by a few things.
1. Gentleman and this atrocity of a roster
2. Garrett and his archaic offense
Mara said he’s a young coach who will need time to succeed. His game management should have been further along in year 2. That’s my biggest issue…. The immaturity shown with the press these final 6 weeks was him buckling under the immense pressure of a crumbling franchise.
With all of that being said this had to happen in order to get all facets of the organization on the same page. Unfortunately Judge was working with the biggest dopes in football.
Judge was over his head. If you can't see it...
When you get sent out in the Atlantic ocean in a row boat, it's easy to look "in over your head."
Judge has many things to work on, clearly (e.g. time mgt, more aggressive offensive approach, better use of the pre-season, etc), but he was hired as a 38 year old HC and the owner stated that they needed to show patience with him. They paired him with THE WORST GM in the NFL, and 10 years worth of bad decisions. They "encouraged" Judge to hire Garrett as his OC. This is an organizational failure and it consumed a young coach that had some potential.
RE: RE: Joe Judge may very well get another HC job
But it won't be anytime soon. He's young, he's an expert bullshitter and he knows the right things to say.
He's not our problem anymore
No chance. He killed that the last month and a half and especially the last few weeks. He wasn't even a strong candidate to begin with. He was a rogue hire because he talked tough and told people what they want to hear in an interview, but didn't know how to achieve any of it.
Even now, I'd argue he's worsened as a coach because of this tenure. He needs a few years of rehab down at the college level as an assistant and maybe he can get a Division II job somewhere.
I don't think Belichick would even take him right now. He's got some radioactivity to him.
What part of Belichick or saban makes you think he cares about whether a coach is liked or not in the media?
Steve Sarkesian was fired for being a drunk on the job as a head football coach and Saban rehabbed his career and got him another HC job.
He didn’t learn bills first rule answer questions as briefly as possible he literally ran his mouth more on one question than Belichick has in the entire history of his career put together
RE: RE: RE: Joe Judge may very well get another HC job
But it won't be anytime soon. He's young, he's an expert bullshitter and he knows the right things to say.
He's not our problem anymore
No chance. He killed that the last month and a half and especially the last few weeks. He wasn't even a strong candidate to begin with. He was a rogue hire because he talked tough and told people what they want to hear in an interview, but didn't know how to achieve any of it.
Even now, I'd argue he's worsened as a coach because of this tenure. He needs a few years of rehab down at the college level as an assistant and maybe he can get a Division II job somewhere.
I don't think Belichick would even take him right now. He's got some radioactivity to him.
What part of Belichick or saban makes you think he cares about whether a coach is liked or not in the media?
Steve Sarkesian was fired for being a drunk on the job as a head football coach and Saban rehabbed his career and got him another HC job.
In the eyes of guys like Belichick and Saban, Judge was fired for a much worse reason - for sucking.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Joe Judge may very well get another HC job
But it won't be anytime soon. He's young, he's an expert bullshitter and he knows the right things to say.
He's not our problem anymore
No chance. He killed that the last month and a half and especially the last few weeks. He wasn't even a strong candidate to begin with. He was a rogue hire because he talked tough and told people what they want to hear in an interview, but didn't know how to achieve any of it.
Even now, I'd argue he's worsened as a coach because of this tenure. He needs a few years of rehab down at the college level as an assistant and maybe he can get a Division II job somewhere.
I don't think Belichick would even take him right now. He's got some radioactivity to him.
What part of Belichick or saban makes you think he cares about whether a coach is liked or not in the media?
Steve Sarkesian was fired for being a drunk on the job as a head football coach and Saban rehabbed his career and got him another HC job.
In the eyes of guys like Belichick and Saban, Judge was fired for a much worse reason - for sucking.
He did the same for Lane Kiffin, another notorious loser until the Saban Jedi Training.
The key for me was that I truly believe there were three + games that he put us at significantly worse odds to win. Sure he was dealt a tough season with injuries and limited talent, but a good coach shouldn’t cost you a few games.
Hope he learns, has success in college, and get back to the NFL one day.
I really like him and his enthusiasm. He just wasn't ready for prime-time. In a lot of ways he reminds me of Spags.
He ran into a perfect storm of ineptness starting in the Front Office (a GM who had lost his "mojo"), a nervous Nelly owner, incompetent coaching staff (and not-to-mention a ton of injuries).
So, instead of a John-Paul-Jones "hell with the torpedos, full speed ahead", he retreated into "let's just not lose"mentality - THAT is what (despite the players' loyalty, destroyed their belief they could win).
I just hope the next GM-combo doesn't take a wrecking ball to the place, the cupboard's not bare.
He had a major say in all personnel decisions. Almost his entire coaching staff was hand-picked by him, mostly SEC coaches.
But yeah, he's the victim here.
+1
Last year the lack of accountability for EEngram left me concerned about both how genuine JJ’s tough disciplinarian talk was and also his ability to assess football talent. The timeout issues, unforced penalties, and overly cautious in-game decisions also left me concerned about his strategic sense and organization skills. After Seattle, I chalked it up to 1st year young coach issues, COVID affecting training and a bad backup QB situation.. It only grew worse this year — and that was to start the season when most everything he wanted was in place, Wasn’t a confidence builder. What transpired the last 6 weeks and the 79-0 at the half was just about the worst I’ve ever seen. Utterly indefensible. His deflection, lobbying and obvious spin was a bad look — and maybe revealed a bit of his true character. The fact there was even a chance of him coming back had me reassessing any belief in ownership’s competence.
With DG/JJ going and if the Giants hire a GM from a successful outside Org with a revamp of personnel/scouting, then maybe this is a true reset with ownership/family stepping out of personnel and football operations. It would provide a real chance for a turnaround. If so, then we can at least feel good that the owners are capable of substantial and meaningful change. I’m interested to see how this plays out.
..that would severely handicap any rookie head coach. That’s not to excuse his significant mistakes and failings. But given the circumstances, in a vacuum it wouldn’t be crazy to give him another year. Some coaches who went on to great careers had bad starts in better circumstances.
But you can’t saddle a new GM with Judge. Any GM worth his salt wants a clean slate. Many would be accepting of an incumbent HC who was well regarded, but that’s obviously not the case. Judge isn’t owed anything beyond his salary, and team had to make this move to get the best GM they can.
I am 100% confident he would still have a job if he didn't
1) Throw other coaches under the bus
2) QB sneak in victory formation twice in a row
There were a number of other things I personally would have fired him for. But IMO he would still have his job were it not for these two things. He could have had a 10:30 rant that just omitted the part where he broke unwritten football rules and he'd still have a job.
He had tough circumstances. He made them harder on himself. That's why he doesn't have a job.
Some people I'm sad to see leave the front office of my team. Most I'm fairly neutral towards as I wish them the best but do not want them associated with the teams I root for.
There are only 3 people ever for teams that I've rooted for that I was more than happy to see go:
1) DG
2) JJ
3) Isiah Thomas
That's the list. And the fact that the Giants employed two of the most unsuccessful yet arrogant SOBs I've ever seen as team leaders of any franchise is a bit terrifying TBH. But I'm trying to be hopeful that they want to fix this.
I can understand getting your hopes up for JJ, not as much DG lol. But he was such a fraud, I don't understand any pity for the guy. Him calling after being fired to check if he was missed? I guess? is just so in line with everything that was wrong with him. I am fairly confident I'll never again see such an insecure person as a leader of a team, ever again.
But I think Joe Judge will be a Head Coach again and will succeed. It’s going out on a limb, but I did see some positives to go along with his passion, or gift of gab.
1. He chose the right Defensive Coordinater
2. The team played hard for him all of last year
3. Watching his weekly YouTube show, you could see how detail oriented he was and was very clear in his teaching.
I think he was torpedoed by a few things.
1. Gentleman and this atrocity of a roster
2. Garrett and his archaic offense
Mara said he’s a young coach who will need time to succeed. His game management should have been further along in year 2. That’s my biggest issue…. The immaturity shown with the press these final 6 weeks was him buckling under the immense pressure of a crumbling franchise.
With all of that being said this had to happen in order to get all facets of the organization on the same page. Unfortunately Judge was working with the biggest dopes in football.
Judge was over his head. If you can't see it...
When you get sent out in the Atlantic ocean in a row boat, it's easy to look "in over your head."
Judge has many things to work on, clearly (e.g. time mgt, more aggressive offensive approach, better use of the pre-season, etc), but he was hired as a 38 year old HC and the owner stated that they needed to show patience with him. They paired him with THE WORST GM in the NFL, and 10 years worth of bad decisions. They "encouraged" Judge to hire Garrett as his OC. This is an organizational failure and it consumed a young coach that had some potential.
+100
The Giant Insider podcast on this is a must listen and it's free.
One thing I’m glad about is that the Mara’s and Giants FO as a whole clearly care about their reputation/perception among the fans. The Giants becoming a national joke thanks to Judge and the “fan confidence rating” in the organization at a 40 year low, the Maras felt the pressure and made the move that needed to be made.
Getting a new GM from outside the organization is the most important thing. Hopefully that leads to a HC that finally delivers after 3 straight losers leading the team.
I am 100% confident he would still have a job if he didn't
1) Throw other coaches under the bus
2) QB sneak in victory formation twice in a row
There were a number of other things I personally would have fired him for. But IMO he would still have his job were it not for these two things. He could have had a 10:30 rant that just omitted the part where he broke unwritten football rules and he'd still have a job.
He had tough circumstances. He made them harder on himself. That's why he doesn't have a job.
Some people I'm sad to see leave the front office of my team. Most I'm fairly neutral towards as I wish them the best but do not want them associated with the teams I root for.
There are only 3 people ever for teams that I've rooted for that I was more than happy to see go:
1) DG
2) JJ
3) Isiah Thomas
That's the list. And the fact that the Giants employed two of the most unsuccessful yet arrogant SOBs I've ever seen as team leaders of any franchise is a bit terrifying TBH. But I'm trying to be hopeful that they want to fix this.
I can understand getting your hopes up for JJ, not as much DG lol. But he was such a fraud, I don't understand any pity for the guy. Him calling after being fired to check if he was missed? I guess? is just so in line with everything that was wrong with him. I am fairly confident I'll never again see such an insecure person as a leader of a team, ever again.
This is a long shot but the rumors yesterday were that Shoun and the Giants have had offline discussions since November. With a request by the fins to interview Daboll, could this be Shoen asking the Giants to fire Judge to confirm to Daboll he is the choice for HC?
It sounds like he demanded heavy personnel influence for next season.
I was living in the SF Bay Area for Hue Jackson's one season as Raiders' HC.
Raiders got off to a 7-4 start and HJ was in his glory. Then they lost 4 of their last 5, including a Week 17 home loss that knocked them out of a playoff spot.
HJ gave a meltdown post-game PC, saying how sick he was at the result, and how he wouldn't be feeling that way at this time next season because he would be taking control of personnel decisions.
I thought: that is really not a wise thing to say.
He was fired shortly afterwards and it took five years for him to get another HC shot with the Browns.
tear the band-aid off. The easy half is now done. The tough half is getting the family out of football ops. If that doesn't happen, the easy half was probably meaningless.
official or coach. I have criticized coaches and executives but it's never been personal until Judge. He is just a jerk and completely disingenuous, constantly pushing off the blame on players an subordinates instead of accepting responsibility and fixing it. Good riddance to him.
If there had not bee a fan revolt, had we all gone along with this crap as silent sheep, does anybody think we would be in a situation with DG and JJ out, and Abrams not in the running.
There is no doubt in my mind that all negative chatter on here, twitter, call ins to radio shows, direct letters, and even the petition. The more things we can do, the more pressure we as fans can bring does have an effect on this ownership.
The comments that suggest anything we say and do will not matter are dead and should be buried forever!
RE: He embarrassed the organization the last couple of months
And I thought made a critical mistake by firing Garrett mid season, a mistake both for football and political reasons.
I’d stress the human side of this. He wasn’t sufficiently qualified, walked into an awful and highly politicized situation, and gradually came unraveled. I’m sure it’s been incredibly painful for him. Hope he gets back on his feet and starts the next phase of his career soon.
Did he embarrass the org? Or was thee org already an embarrassment thrust upon him? Psst? It was the latter.
Judge got fucked over by DG and this leadership. And while everyone is rah fucking rah, just remember that there have been other teams that have cycled head coaches every couple years and never seem to have success...and they have historically been the bottom feeders of the league. The Giants didn't fail bc of JJ. They failed Judge in ever giving him a chance at success, and good luck to the next poor schlub, hopefully he'll get a realistic shot at building something here.
I am 100% confident he would still have a job if he didn't
1) Throw other coaches under the bus
2) QB sneak in victory formation twice in a row
There were a number of other things I personally would have fired him for. But IMO he would still have his job were it not for these two things. He could have had a 10:30 rant that just omitted the part where he broke unwritten football rules and he'd still have a job.
He had tough circumstances. He made them harder on himself. That's why he doesn't have a job.
Some people I'm sad to see leave the front office of my team. Most I'm fairly neutral towards as I wish them the best but do not want them associated with the teams I root for.
There are only 3 people ever for teams that I've rooted for that I was more than happy to see go:
1) DG
2) JJ
3) Isiah Thomas
That's the list. And the fact that the Giants employed two of the most unsuccessful yet arrogant SOBs I've ever seen as team leaders of any franchise is a bit terrifying TBH. But I'm trying to be hopeful that they want to fix this.
I can understand getting your hopes up for JJ, not as much DG lol. But he was such a fraud, I don't understand any pity for the guy. Him calling after being fired to check if he was missed? I guess? is just so in line with everything that was wrong with him. I am fairly confident I'll never again see such an insecure person as a leader of a team, ever again.
Good post right there...
I think he also lost the locker room and other people in the Giants org. If the players don't want you its over, and in any organization you need to create relationships and not burn internal bridges. Judge did neither. I'm convinced if the players were playing hard, and had told management that they supported Judge, he'd still be here.
I really did not expect that this ownership would really do this. I didn't think they had it in them.
I am pleasantly surprised, and I feel more optimistic than I have in a decade. There is no guarantee that they finally pick the right people, but at least there is a chance. I feel like weight has been lifted. Hopefully the team now goes on the right trajectory.
I think he also lost the locker room and other people in the Giants org. If the players don't want you its over, and in any organization you need to create relationships and not burn internal bridges. Judge did neither. I'm convinced if the players were playing hard, and had told management that they supported Judge, he'd still be here.
I don't know whether he did or did not lose the locker room. Even if he did, that was not the determining factor.
His rant where he threw everybody but himself under the bus started the avalanche. Starting yesterday, he needed to the mea culpa, and present to ownership how he was going to change himself. Instead he went in brash, defiant, and arrogant which is how he always is. I am sure he was still throwing others under the bus... It stopped working.
That is what got him fired.
RE: RE: Maybe a new Head Coach can bring Judge back
Very un-Giant like. I feel like he must have made demands or something that really pissed off Mara. There was more there than just losing with a broken roster.
Looking back, it was so much of the Giants need to think outside the box for their next coach, need to get with modern times, outside the organization. That was Joe Judge
While he had some positives, you absolutely can’t start over at the top with a new GM and keep the HC who has that 2 year record, despite all he was up against.
You start over and go complete from GM to HC. Has to be this way, as they are directly tied to each other
Looking back, it was so much of the Giants need to think outside the box for their next coach, need to get with modern times, outside the organization. That was Joe Judge
While he had some positives, you absolutely can’t start over at the top with a new GM and keep the HC who has that 2 year record, despite all he was up against.
You start over and go complete from GM to HC. Has to be this way, as they are directly tied to each other
Judge was a risky choice but not a modern coach. He claimed to run “multiples” but his offense was as vanilla as they come and defense was fairly vanilla both extremely conservative.
He was authoritarian style which is by no means modern.
The Mara’s played up the pats thing and sold him as modern but he wasn’t at all
was a complete fraud. He got this job off a Great interview. That was his resume. He was the best interview Mara said he ever had. Hindsight shows just how ridiculous that is when you really think about it. He was set up poorly nobody can deny that but this organization, this team, basically everything was too big for him. He was learning on the fly in the NY market. Maybe that would've worked in Houston or Cleveland but not here. It swallowed him up and unfortunately everyone should've seen this coming when he was hired.
All the Coaches have been set up poorly going back almost a decade. That is the result of almost a decade of terrible drafting.
He also had a chance to assess the roster after his first year. I believe he had major input in that. Compare the 2005 offseason to 2021. Perhaps you can argue some bad luck but TC had a much better understanding of what his team needed and it was addressed with results. 2021 very little. To me that doomed Judge more than the rants.
Imperative that a first time HC makes progress from year 1 to 2. History is not kind to those who don't. You can not like his rants but I was more concerned with how he viewed
Hard pass on listening to anything that loser Giant Insider says. Spent four years berating and blocking people who said the team was headed in the wrong direction
RE: RE: The Giant Insider podcast on this is a must listen and it's free.
Hard pass on listening to anything that loser Giant Insider says. Spent four years berating and blocking people who said the team was headed in the wrong direction
Did he? This is the first one I've listened to.
RE: RE: RE: The Giant Insider podcast on this is a must listen and it's free.
Hard pass on listening to anything that loser Giant Insider says. Spent four years berating and blocking people who said the team was headed in the wrong direction
I don't like celebrating anyone losing their job, even though Judge is not your average Joe who files for unemployment but still. I had really high hopes for him and was fired up after his introductory press conference. He was exactly what I wanted - a young, tough sob who would restore Giant pride. I bought into everything he was promising and was honestly satisfied with how his first season went last year. The team fought hard and was in games and although Judge had his issues with the Xs and Os, he showed promise. But, I was fooled. We all were. Judge was fugazy. The tough guy character he played in front of cameras was not the same guy in real life and he did not coach that way either. Of course we don't know him in real life but just seeing how he coached scared and indecisive told you everything you needed to know about who is in real life. That being said, he would still be here if wasn't for his big mouth. The excuses were lined up perfectly for him this season. Injuries, covid, no QB, no OL, Gettleman, ect. Yet that 11 minute wannabe WWE promo and going for the QB sneaks were his own undoing. You cannot do that without a resume and a track record. He made himself really unlikeable, fake and taking shots at other coaches is a big no no. Maybe one day this guy can redeem himself and coach again but he needs to look in the mirror and stfu.
BYE BYE Joe. He also embarrassed more and more with every passing week. This wasn't death by 1000 cuts more like death by bleeding out due to 2-3 critical blows. He didn't stand a chance.
The only saving grace was Mara is loyal to a fault sometimes but I think John was pretty convinced by the end.
That's not authoritarian. No one except tv people cared about that. Sterling Shepard was quoted as laughing about it and saying practices at Oklahoma were tougher.
From a business management standpoint, I'm guessing the ownership was conflicted on Monday morning, and gave Judge an ultimatum to submit a formal review of the season, including overall player evaluations of the current roster, who he would keep and continue to work out, what amount of cap space this resulted in for them to play with, and his recommended direction for personnel decisions given Gettleman's retirement and the search for a new GM.
I'm guessing, again, all speculation, but the end of the business day yesterday was the deadline to complete and present the evaluation, and ownership wasn't impressed.
That's how I'd approach it if I were on the fence internally. If he thinks players 1-20 are keepers and worth the contract, but ownership felt many of them were overcompensated or underperformed, and/or the proposed cap room after this evaluation resulted ina n untenable 2022 roster, then he was gone.
Given the performance of the roster, the team, and our cap situation, I'm sure most HC's in the league would be fired in this specific position and this gave ownership the confidence needed to pull the plug for a reset.
I'm really curious to know if this is in anyway accurate; a fun little game for me to guess and see if anything was right.
PS: I didn't read all ~8 or 9 pages of comments to see if there was an in-depth news report on the process leading to the firing, so apologies if my post is pure BS speculation hah. :)
Excited for a chance to see SOMETHING NEW at least. Even if it's a shitty team, it still gives us hope for another 1.5 years or so that we may have gotten the next few major decisions right, just like we were sort of confident for 1.5 years of Judge before the fan base collectively had enough.
oe Judge had no business being an NFL head coach for two years. It was a gross miscalculation on ownership's part, a panic, knee-jerk reaction, and they should know better than to let Bill Belichick steer them. Shame on them. And, better late than never for Giants fans, by the time they spent a few more hours with Judge this week, exploring his vision for the team after his egregious in-game malpractice and ridiculous press conference pablum, they came to the only reasonable decision, which was to terminate his contract.
Getting a reasonably accomplished general manager candidate to take the job while having to stick with Judge would have always been silly. And trying to sell him to your fanbase with season ticket renewals going out and a half-year offseason set to begin would have been backwards. History would indicate that John Mara won't get this latest reboot right, either, but at this point anything would be better than keeping this cursed experiment going.
than Ray Handley’s HCing stint. Just weird. Seemed like he was going to be a really good young coach and then wheels slowly came of the wagon; the wagon veered off the road, got out of control, and tumbled down a steep embankment.
That's funny and true!
.. and it reminds me of a time back in college..
I'm not a fan of the writer of the article linked just above
I disagree with his article and disagree with most of you. I like Joe Judge. I still think he could have been a successful HC. I think Belichick was correct he was better than the last two guys John Mara hired.
What would have happened if Joe Judge came to the Giants with a different GM than Dave Gettleman, what if John Mara had hired one of the people he's interviewing now when Judge was hired? What would have happened if a different OC than Jason Garrett ran the offense?
IMO the Giants would have won more than 10 games. The OL would have looked very different. There would be edge rushers on the roster. There wouldn't be two fullbacks and another handful of special teams first players on the roster, that was Judge's fault but a smart GM would not have allowed it. And then there's the QB play. Would a different GM have kept Daniel Jones on scholarship?
HC in the NFL is a skill set that seems to be pretty rare. It also seems to be very difficult to identify. How many good ones are there? A dozen? 15? I think under better circumstances Judge would have had a shot to be one of them.
Having said all of that I think the job of trying to remake the Giants organizational dysfunction by himself into something that could win the NFL broke him. He melted down and had to go after the way the 2nd half of the season played out on and off the field.
Hopefully he saved his money and has a good financial advisor. He's going to be paid 25 million dollars for his 33 games as HC NYG. He's a young guy but IMO he's going to go to the very back of the line for another job, and I'm not talking an HC job in the NFL.
What if anything is he going to be offered? Back to a ST coach? A college HC job? Take a year off? But sometimes when you take a year off you never get a chance to get back on the coaching carousel. I wish him well and wish it would have worked out better for him and for us.
"He's better than Shurmur or McAdoo" is not ringing praise
he has some growing up to do. Yeah, Gettlemen was terrible, but Judge did nothing to help himself and in the end, throwing temper tantrums from frustration speaks to immaturity.
I think they're a great way to follow the team. I listen to a lot them. The Giants Insider is what it is. Passionate fans with an internet "beat" writer who is a little more objective than Paul Dittino. But I think there's lots of good info and entertainment in each episode. IMO like most things media and entertainment there is some some bias and some agenda, pro Giants in this case. I think they are dependent on access to the 1925 Giants Way for their revenue stream so it makes sense to me.
The Giants podcast I highly recommend everyone listening to is The Giants Guys episode 63 with Leonard Marshall. I sports love Leonard. He's great in this interview IMO. I thought that some of what he says about the current NFL and guys the Giants should trade for (teams would never trade those players) isn't realistic or completely dialed in but the conversation on the his Giant history and Giants history in general are great and his take on the current team is pretty good too. After the dust settles on a new GM and coach I want some help here pushing him for the Giants Ring of Honor.
first season. I think coaching is really, really hard. You need a lot of things to go right.
Not sure I am seeing this right stuff comments. Giants were very undermanned at the end. Everyone saw that. He buckled under that pressure. Not sure that element ever leaves him wherever he coaches but again I wish him well. It is a heck of a hurdle to overcome.
what exactly did he have that was the right stuff in your view?
Exactly. Judge was the definition of style (his talk) over substance (his product).
Look, we all got fooled. I can see why Mara took was drawn in with Judge getting endorsed by BB and Saban.
But, as you know, interviewing is a process. And if executed correctly you should be able to narrow down the right people and get very close to the best hire. Hopefully the Giants are thinking about this for this opportunity and won't make the same mistakes again.
Judge - ( New Window )
A fresh start was needed.
Never thought they'd have the balls.
It’s true
Clean slate - let's go.
@RapSheet
· 3m
Source: The #Giants fired Joe Judge.
i must if missed the part where they hired a new coach
Link - ( New Window )
Either way, let’s hope the Giants take this opportunity to do things properly.
Bring in the best candidate. Let him hire his man.
Time to build.
Now the critical part - a GM with real power to hire HIS, HC, total control of football operations, and final say on personnel.
But if true Judge will go to Saban rehab, and get an SEC HC gig soon enough.
He’s a smart dude, and with some development will be a fine coach when all is said and done.
Link - ( New Window )
Be real.
A New York minute.
Time is critical.
Quote:
So, leaving the decisions to the "football guy" don't include who the HC is. I am both delighted and a little annoyed.
i must if missed the part where they hired a new coach
You also missed your shift key and learning "must HAVE" not "must if" but there's room for improvement.
I wonder if that put Mara over the edge
Exactly. Couldn’t leave things in limbo and still appeal to a lot of GM candidates.
Team showed some heart least year and I thought they would have improved given the additions made. Hard to stick with the leadership that got us to where we are today regardless of injuries. 2021 was two steps back after a half step forward in 2020.
I think they've already talked to a few candidates and had to of been told this had to happen but I never thought they would do it
I won't dance on his grave, but I think this parting of ways was warranted.
I wish him luck. He stepped into a really dysfunctional situation here with a terrible GM. I think he can become a quality HC.
that someone losing their job just instantly put me in a good mood. Fuck, I was deflated yesterday. Let's wipe the slate. Redesign, Rebuild and Reclaim what was once Giants Pride.
link - ( New Window )
I won't dance on his grave, but I think this parting of ways was warranted.
I wish him luck. He stepped into a really dysfunctional situation here with a terrible GM. I think he can become a quality HC.
He just wasn't ready. Hes definitely a coach at some level.
So happy that we can move forward now.
I pray that JM allows the new GM to restructure the Giants football operations top to bottom.
Buh Bye Bozo Joe !!!
I won't dance on his grave, but I think this parting of ways was warranted.
I wish him luck. He stepped into a really dysfunctional situation here with a terrible GM. I think he can become a quality HC.
Thanks for sharing that. I have no ill will towards him, it just didn't work out.
agree completely. I don't lament the firing. I just cringe at some of the grave-dancing that goes on a lot of the time.
(and yeah, I do get it. message board, enthused fans, etc)
But i try to stay tethered to the earth on these types of things.
But the head coach is responsible for the offense, and that was as bad a two season run of offense you'll ever see.
One day versus two days doesn't really make much of a difference when the same thing happened in the end...
Most likely none of the GM candidates wanted to work with Judge so Mara had no choice
I won't dance on his grave, but I think this parting of ways was warranted.
I wish him luck. He stepped into a really dysfunctional situation here with a terrible GM. I think he can become a quality HC.
I agree. In retrospect, despite the majority of the board being on board with the hire, Judge was the wrong hire and way over his skis in this dreadful situation.
Hopefully he gets a crack to coach a college program where I think he may be better suited.
"Steve (Tisch) and I both believe it is in the best interest of our franchise to move in another direction," said team president John Mara. "We met with Joe yesterday afternoon to discuss the state of the team. I met again with Joe this afternoon, and it was during that conversation I informed Joe of our decision. We appreciate Joe's efforts on behalf of the organization.
"I said before the season started that I wanted to feel good about the direction we were headed when we played our last game of the season. Unfortunately, I cannot make that statement, which is why we have made this decision.
"We will hire a general manager and that person will lead the effort to hire a new head coach."
On Monday, senior vice president and general manager Dave Gettleman announced his retirement following a 35-year career in the National Football League.
Mara and Tisch have already started the search for a general manager. Candidates will be announced after each interview is completed.
"This will be a comprehensive search for our next general manager," said Mara upon Gettleman's retirement. "We are looking for a person who demonstrates exceptional leadership and communication abilities, somebody who will oversee all aspects of our football operations, including player personnel, college scouting and coaching."
Added Tisch, "It is an understatement to say John and I are disappointed by the lack of success we have had on the field. We are united in our commitment to find a general manager who will provide the direction necessary for us to achieve the on-field performance and results we all expect."
Link - ( New Window )
So schoen has to be the front runner otherwise Mara would never fire Judge.
Power play begins.
What leverage would Judge have? He was under contract for 3 more years and clearly didn’t do anything in his first 2 to earn more control.
I was one of the few people who HATED the hire, but I must admit I was fully on board after last season. Judge simply did a horrendous job this season in the things he’s fully in control of. Then he began this pattern of excuse making (e.g. headsets) and blame deflecting was was antithetical to the man I thought he was. Ultimately, the product on the field was unacceptable. The two QB sneaks were one of the lowest points in franchise history. He HAD to go after that embarrassment.
I hope for his sake that he gets another shot. He’s a young man. Best of luck to him.
I won't dance on his grave, but I think this parting of ways was warranted.
I wish him luck. He stepped into a really dysfunctional situation here with a terrible GM. I think he can become a quality HC.
Agreed! While I wanted the change, I feel bad for Judge and I think he could be successful if given another chance. It just wasn't in the cards this go round.
Quote:
But an agent for a number of NFL coaches said Scoen pressured this else he wouldn’t have taken the interview.
So schoen has to be the front runner otherwise Mara would never fire Judge.
Power play begins.
They’ve been in back channel talks with Schoen for weeks.
I wonder if they want to get in on the Brian Flores sweepstakes.
Did Judge mandate involvement in GM decision or some kind of powerplay?
Or massive negative feedback?
Why not wait for GM after yesterday....something happened
Not seeing any of Gettleman's white knights riding into this thread telling people how unclassy they're being. Strange.
Quote:
In comment 15546512 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
But an agent for a number of NFL coaches said Scoen pressured this else he wouldn’t have taken the interview.
So schoen has to be the front runner otherwise Mara would never fire Judge.
Power play begins.
They’ve been in back channel talks with Schoen for weeks.
Interesting. Where did you hear that from??
Quote:
I know some people (who I trust) who know Judge personally, and by those accounts he's a tremendously good dude.
I won't dance on his grave, but I think this parting of ways was warranted.
I wish him luck. He stepped into a really dysfunctional situation here with a terrible GM. I think he can become a quality HC.
Thanks for sharing that. I have no ill will towards him, it just didn't work out.
Not seeing any of Gettleman's white knights riding into this thread telling people how unclassy they're being. Strange.
And Giants shouldn’t have hired someone not ready to be an NFL head coach.
Not seeing any of Gettleman's white knights riding into this thread telling people how unclassy they're being. Strange.
He reminds me of a Greg Schiano. I think he'd do well in college.
Well someone will take it, just not any of the highly regarded candidates.
Quote:
I know some people (who I trust) who know Judge personally, and by those accounts he's a tremendously good dude.
I won't dance on his grave, but I think this parting of ways was warranted.
I wish him luck. He stepped into a really dysfunctional situation here with a terrible GM. I think he can become a quality HC.
He just wasn't ready. Hes definitely a coach at some level.
He'd probably turn Paramus Catholic into a powerhouse.
Not seeing any of Gettleman's white knights riding into this thread telling people how unclassy they're being. Strange.
He should’ve taken the Giants job untethered to a terrible coordinator like Jason Garrett. He got to choose his DC and made a solid hire. He should’ve told Mara that he needed to sink or swim with his own people.
Not seeing any of Gettleman's white knights riding into this thread telling people how unclassy they're being. Strange.
Narcissist...
A fresh start was needed.
Me too. But how a potential leader handles losing and adversity is pretty revealing. He failed the test
Quote:
In comment 15546578 Rave7 said:
Quote:
In comment 15546512 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
But an agent for a number of NFL coaches said Scoen pressured this else he wouldn’t have taken the interview.
So schoen has to be the front runner otherwise Mara would never fire Judge.
Power play begins.
They’ve been in back channel talks with Schoen for weeks.
Interesting. Where did you hear that from??
It's been reported pretty widely at this point.
Not seeing any of Gettleman's white knights riding into this thread telling people how unclassy they're being. Strange.
Gettleman didn't force him to throw gasoline on the building, Judge did that all himself.
Judge did not demonstrate anything that he can be a head coach at any level.
I am very intrigued with Dorsey. The unsung hero with Josh Allen's development.
Quote:
Joe Judge has been relieved of his duties as head coach of the New York Giants, the team announced today.
"Steve (Tisch) and I both believe it is in the best interest of our franchise to move in another direction," said team president John Mara. "We met with Joe yesterday afternoon to discuss the state of the team. I met again with Joe this afternoon, and it was during that conversation I informed Joe of our decision. We appreciate Joe's efforts on behalf of the organization.
"I said before the season started that I wanted to feel good about the direction we were headed when we played our last game of the season. Unfortunately, I cannot make that statement, which is why we have made this decision.
"We will hire a general manager and that person will lead the effort to hire a new head coach."
On Monday, senior vice president and general manager Dave Gettleman announced his retirement following a 35-year career in the National Football League.
Mara and Tisch have already started the search for a general manager. Candidates will be announced after each interview is completed.
"This will be a comprehensive search for our next general manager," said Mara upon Gettleman's retirement. "We are looking for a person who demonstrates exceptional leadership and communication abilities, somebody who will oversee all aspects of our football operations, including player personnel, college scouting and coaching."
Added Tisch, "It is an understatement to say John and I are disappointed by the lack of success we have had on the field. We are united in our commitment to find a general manager who will provide the direction necessary for us to achieve the on-field performance and results we all expect."
Link - ( New Window )
As someone who wrote news stories for a living, that could easily be done in five minutes. The last two thirds came from press releases yesterday.
We have a chance to expedite the turnaround with new GM, new HC, and new QB.
For all of his knowledge of the game he seems to lack skills in strategy and being a tactician that he needs to either lesson the competition for or have coordinators that are both excellent in that regard.
He could probably be an NFL defensive coordinator too. Or like an assistant QC coach.
The only way he could succeed as an NFL head coach IMO is in a really good situation with a strong front office with excellent systems that could also convince him to drop his ego and play to his strengths.
Quote:
In comment 15546512 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
But an agent for a number of NFL coaches said Scoen pressured this else he wouldn’t have taken the interview.
So schoen has to be the front runner otherwise Mara would never fire Judge.
Power play begins.
They’ve been in back channel talks with Schoen for weeks.
Oh good. I’m fine with Schoen if he’s good GM material but I hope he doesn’t bring Dabol or Frazier as our HC. They are good coordinators but I don’t know they are good HC.
He won't be leaving the building, or entering it. Its a Zoom interview.
Banks has probably never even heard of half the guys we're interviewing.
I was one of the few people who HATED the hire, but I must admit I was fully on board after last season. Judge simply did a horrendous job this season in the things he’s fully in control of. Then he began this pattern of excuse making (e.g. headsets) and blame deflecting was was antithetical to the man I thought he was. Ultimately, the product on the field was unacceptable. The two QB sneaks were one of the lowest points in franchise history. He HAD to go after that embarrassment.
I hope for his sake that he gets another shot. He’s a young man. Best of luck to him.
Feel bad for a guy who did nothing and is walking away with millions. Any one on this board could have just as well.
Now they can go get the right GM and let him get his coach.
[quote] In comment 15546660 gtt350 said:
Quote:
.
He won't be leaving the building, or entering it. Its a Zoom interview.
zoom this you know what i meant
Feels like the right momentum for sure.
Need to accelerate this GM search.
Quote:
I know some people (who I trust) who know Judge personally, and by those accounts he's a tremendously good dude.
I won't dance on his grave, but I think this parting of ways was warranted.
I wish him luck. He stepped into a really dysfunctional situation here with a terrible GM. I think he can become a quality HC.
I agree. In retrospect, despite the majority of the board being on board with the hire, Judge was the wrong hire and way over his skis in this dreadful situation.
Hopefully he gets a crack to coach a college program where I think he may be better suited.
+1 I think a college head coach would be the way to go for him.
Quote:
No lame duck seasons. We can turn this around in a year in today's NFL.
We have a chance to expedite the turnaround with new GM, new HC, and new QB.
Indeed!
Well someone will take it, just not any of the highly regarded candidates.
Bingo
I respect banks but he is another Giants figure trapped in connections to Belichick
Hopefully he takes some time and evaluates lessons learned. At 40 he has ample time to rebound. Good luck Coach.
Quote:
Would take this job?. You get 2 years, and you have one of the bottom 5 rosters in the league.
Well someone will take it, just not any of the highly regarded candidates.
Bingo
Guess we should all pack it in then.
Good lord are you guys some big fucking babies.
Technically they did. They simply removed an obstacle to allow the new GM to hit the ground running. Does it really matter if the new GM fired or retained JJ? It's done now let's move onto more important decisions.
I’d stress the human side of this. He wasn’t sufficiently qualified, walked into an awful and highly politicized situation, and gradually came unraveled. I’m sure it’s been incredibly painful for him. Hope he gets back on his feet and starts the next phase of his career soon.
This means we will at least be able to interview the best GM candidates. We also have two top 10 picks.
I also agree that the Maras and their family members must renounce any involvement in football decisions. We have to hope that their willingness to fire Judge means they will do so.
A fresh start was needed.
+ infinity
I was a supporter until the cowardly taking-a-knee in the second quarter.
This guy should never again coach in the NFL.
let's hope for the best
I'd love to see an exit press conference where he had even less to lose than late in the season.
Best of luck to him and his future.
It was even worse than 2003 and 2017. Mind boggling to even think that.
Hopefully he takes some time and evaluates lessons learned. At 40 he has ample time to rebound. Good luck Coach.
There's a story to be told about how he could manage 2020 so well and utterly fall apart in 2021
I'm right there with you. I'm a bit stunned. Wonder what the turning point was in this saga.
Feel bad for a guy who did nothing and is walking away with millions. Any one on this board could have just as well.
Money is irrelevant to this conversation. People need to be put in position to succeed by their superiors. The organization has now failed four consecutive coaches after saddling them with many of the exact same problems. Judge needed to go, but he was swimming against the current the entire time.
John Mara
let's hope for the best
If the mob is responsible for this then you should be thanking the mob and never letting them buy a beer for themselves for the rest of their lives
Or probably literally every candidate they've had preliminary discussions with have recommended Judge be fired, so Mara realized he had to do it.
I feel the same way. The last few weeks just showed he was cracking. I hope he finds something more suitable to him.
Great day!! To a new start everyone!
Cheers!
It is. He wasn’t coming tomorrow without Judge out the picture
Best of luck to him and his future.
It happened and he can’t take that loser shit back. There was just no way he could come back.
John Mara
So if Judge had acted like a professional the last week or so and won the game with Fromm, he'd be coming back next year?
Quote:
2021 was a disaster across the board including JJ.
It was even worse than 2003 and 2017. Mind boggling to even think that.
I dunno. 2003 was pretty rough.
Last night on my BigBlueVCR account, posted the Ray Handley fight with Russ Salzberg. Russ said that Judge wasn't Handley, but the point was mainly was that incident happened midway in 1991. He came back in 1992 and it was a shitshow of Ray Must Go all season. It would have been Joe Must Go every game. He lost the fans, he lost the media, and it sounded like he was losing his team.
I'm 100% ok with the Giants just stripping it all down in 2022 and start it all over next year to build towards 2023 with a new coach and GM ,and likely a new QB.
This was needed, it sucks but years of half measures caught up with them. This is a good day for the NY future.
to bring back Joe Judge for another season.
I wish Joe Judge all the best of luck in the future.
Quote:
"I said before the season started that I wanted to feel good about the direction we were headed when we played our last game of the season. Unfortunately, I cannot make that statement, which is why we have made this decision."
John Mara
So if Judge had acted like a professional the last week or so and won the game with Fromm, he'd be coming back next year?
It's not the losing that did him in, it's the embarrassment. They would have pinned the losses on injuries. The embarrassment was impossible to dismiss.
The more the heat turned up on him the more he turtled up on the field. And overcompensated for that turtling off the field. As it is he was too big of a turtle. The solution to having a struggling offense is not to be incredibly conservative, not unless your defense is WAY better than the one he had.
"negative bitching"?? have you seen this team over the last six years?
the only thing worse than "negative bitching" are those who bitch about negative bitching
Not disappointing at all.
The next fucking team that does. And one will. Because everyone thinks they can make a shit situation work even though others have failed.
TONS of people would take the Giants jobs. Whether they're any good is a different matter. But it's a prestige job. And everyone thinks they can make a shit situation work even though others have failed.
to bring back Joe Judge for another season.
I wish Joe Judge all the best of luck in the future.
^This.
I don’t get what you mean by this? They removed Judge to send the signal to all GM candidates that they will not be forcing Judge onto the next GM, I.e. it will be up to the next GM who the coach is. By leaving Judge in it likely was limiting the pool of candidates willing to take the job.
Hey if the next GM comes in and says “actually Judge should be the coach” I bet Joe will be happy to come on back. But I doubt that will happen.
I think he’d have to be one of the guys that’ll get an interview in a few weeks. He’s from the area too and I’ve seen comments that he’d love to Coach here, but I take those supposed comments with a grain of salt.
Quote:
Given the Bears just requested to interview him.
It is. He wasn’t coming tomorrow without Judge out the picture
Not surprised. Mara was likely told by nearly every GM candidate that they wouldn't interview for the job unless Judge was fired first.
Quote:
In comment 15546749 Sean said:
Quote:
Given the Bears just requested to interview him.
It is. He wasn’t coming tomorrow without Judge out the picture
Not surprised. Mara was likely told by nearly every GM candidate that they wouldn't interview for the job unless Judge was fired first.
Could be very true.
Good riddance to them and their arrogance.
Quote:
days to figure out they had to make this move, lol.
This is a business. Season ended Sunday. They met with judge Monday. Owners met and discussed today, and met again and fired him this afternoon. It's all good, dude, don't make more of it than it is.
thanks for pointing out when the season ended, lol. I wonder how the teams that managed to fire their coaches before lunch yesterday managed to pull off such a difficult trick!
If a bowl cut moron like Mark Davis has 100 million to throw around for a coach, then Mara and Tisch should be just fine.
Quote:
In comment 15546471 mikeinbloomfield said:
Quote:
So, leaving the decisions to the "football guy" don't include who the HC is. I am both delighted and a little annoyed.
i must if missed the part where they hired a new coach
You also missed your shift key and learning "must HAVE" not "must if" but there's room for improvement.
You’re really going to knock someone for using “i” instead of “I” on an Internet forum? … To what end?
All the people saying hire Flores, I say hiring your first choice GM is the priority - my choice is Schoen - and then let him find a coach. I'm not sure about Brian Flores.
like others I was a Judge fan until the last couple weeks. He started making excuses and virtue signaling in a way that felt counterproductive. Losing habits.
Unlike McAdoo/Shurmur I actually think Judge should eventually get another chance and think he has the chance to be a good head coach. He has raw leadership ability just didn't have the experience to make enough good decisions (though he did make some).
"After long discussions within the Mara family, we've decided to sell our share of the Giants to a management group headed by the Manning family."
Quote:
In comment 15546476 JonC said:
Quote:
2021 was a disaster across the board including JJ.
It was even worse than 2003 and 2017. Mind boggling to even think that.
I dunno. 2003 was pretty rough.
Yea it’s a steel cage match. Two shitty years enter one shitty year leaves.
"After long discussions within the Mara family, we've decided to sell our share of the Giants to a management group headed by the Manning family."
Did Judge mandate involvement in GM decision or some kind of powerplay?
Or massive negative feedback?
Why not wait for GM after yesterday....something happened
He is similar to Judge persona wise, typically the Giants hire a different personality than the previous HC.
Judge can be a good HC, probably on the college level first. Needs to make adjustments. He was in over his head.
I also like Schoen / Daboll.
That band aid is starting to rip...
The ultimate irony is that many on the outside will misread his tenure. They'll think he failed for being an ultra hard-ass, but, in fact, he was a players coach to the point of being too soft.
I wish Joe Judge the best. I do think he's really smart and that he will use this as a learning experience. I was very excited by his promise, and I do think he worked at it very hard, but he was not yet ready to be a head coach in the NFL.
In comment 15546740 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Almost impossible at this level without enough good talent.
Hopefully he takes some time and evaluates lessons learned. At 40 he has ample time to rebound. Good luck Coach.
There's a story to be told about how he could manage 2020 so well and utterly fall apart in 2021
Ridi Pagliaccio - ( New Window )
Quote:
He should have taken the Mississippi State job instead of walking into Gettleman's burning building. Probably better suited for college.
Not seeing any of Gettleman's white knights riding into this thread telling people how unclassy they're being. Strange.
He should’ve taken the Giants job untethered to a terrible coordinator like Jason Garrett. He got to choose his DC and made a solid hire. He should’ve told Mara that he needed to sink or swim with his own people.
Thank you JJ.
You possibly got La Familia Mara to operate a pro football organization like a pro football business.
If that ends up being true, your hiring was worth it.
They listened to his plan, thought about it overnight and decided they didn’t like what he was shoveling.
Quote:
yesterday's meeting with Mara and Tisch and today to make this happen? All eight GM candidates said "I am only talking to you if firing Judge is on the table?"
Phones blew up with season ticket cancellations plus media coverage. The franchise was everybody’s dart board. I’ve never heard the phrase “clown show” used so much. Ever
What happened was Mara and Tisch had their own meeting today after they spoke to judge yesterday, just like they are supposed to. Or did you think they should have had the discussion with Judge in the room?
Quote:
yesterday's meeting with Mara and Tisch and today to make this happen? All eight GM candidates said "I am only talking to you if firing Judge is on the table?"
What happened was Mara and Tisch had their own meeting today after they spoke to judge yesterday, just like they are supposed to. Or did you think they should have had the discussion with Judge in the room?
Phones blew up with season ticket cancellations plus media coverage. The franchise was everybody’s dart board. I’ve never heard the phrase “clown show” used so much. Ever
For all of his knowledge of the game he seems to lack skills in strategy and being a tactician that he needs to either lesson the competition for or have coordinators that are both excellent in that regard.
He could probably be an NFL defensive coordinator too. Or like an assistant QC coach.
The only way he could succeed as an NFL head coach IMO is in a really good situation with a strong front office with excellent systems that could also convince him to drop his ego and play to his strengths.
Let’s hope we get the smart football management folks in that can safely send John back to his parlor where he can enjoy his glass of brandy and cigar again.
I won't dance on his grave, but I think this parting of ways was warranted.
I wish him luck. He stepped into a really dysfunctional situation here with a terrible GM. I think he can become a quality HC.
Agree. The personal vilification is uncalled for and reflects poorly on the fanbase and some of the individuals on this site. I just don't understand why some resort to that kind of juvenile behavior.
to bring back Joe Judge for another season.
I wish Joe Judge all the best of luck in the future.
I was a big Joe Judge supporter but I agree with you completely. Those last 6 games were EXTREMELY ugly!
Quote:
to admit, I didn't think they'd do it. I thought at most they'd leave it to the next GM, and that they would be inclined to hire one who would at least agree to keep Judge for another year. I was wrong.
I'm right there with you. I'm a bit stunned. Wonder what the turning point was in this saga.
Quote:
So, leaving the decisions to the "football guy" don't include who the HC is. I am both delighted and a little annoyed.
Technically they did. They simply removed an obstacle to allow the new GM to hit the ground running. Does it really matter if the new GM fired or retained JJ? It's done now let's move onto more important decisions.
What this team and Judge in particular displayed in the last 6 weeks made me question whether he had any idea what he was doing at all. He seemed completely clueless on the field and that press conference sealed it.
Ralph Vacchiano
Ralph Vacchiano
✔
@RVacchianoSNY
It's stunning how quickly things unravelled for Joe Judge. About 2 1/2 months ago John Mara said publicly he fully supported his coach. Less than a month ago, he seemed to fully back him, according to those inside the Giants building ..
... The tide against Judge really turned, I'm told, over the last two weeks. The team and coach had become a punchline and that was unacceptable.
Still, as of this morning, it appeared to many inside that the Giants would at least wait until a GM was in place to make a move ...
Quote:
No thanks. Lol
Charlie Weis has also been talking up Pioli. Maybe it's NFL radio Group Think.
I respect banks but he is another Giants figure trapped in connections to Belichick
He is a hard ass. The owner wanted Tua, the GM sided with the owner, Flores wasn't very secretive with his belief Tua is not the guy. Actually similar to Judge he also had a lot of staff turnover and there was concern about that moving forward. The power struggle was going to get worse.
Apparently Flores pushed for Watson as well and the owner said no.
That said, two winning seasons in a row with the Dolphins is impressive. I think he's better off leaving now.
The NE style is tough to pull off w/o consistent winning...even then the act can wear thin.
Quote:
"I said before the season started that I wanted to feel good about the direction we were headed when we played our last game of the season. Unfortunately, I cannot make that statement, which is why we have made this decision."
John Mara
So if Judge had acted like a professional the last week or so and won the game with Fromm, he'd be coming back next year?
I do take Mara at his word, though. He said he needed to feel good about the direction they were heading after the last game, and he didn't.
Feel free to point out John Mara's many shortcomings and inadequacies. But do not take away from a man what is his. Whatever his reasons, this was him doing his job, and making the right call.
Announcement - ( New Window )
Ralph Vacchiano
Ralph Vacchiano
✔
@RVacchianoSNY
It's stunning how quickly things unravelled for Joe Judge. About 2 1/2 months ago John Mara said publicly he fully supported his coach. Less than a month ago, he seemed to fully back him, according to those inside the Giants building ..
... The tide against Judge really turned, I'm told, over the last two weeks. The team and coach had become a punchline and that was unacceptable.
Still, as of this morning, it appeared to many inside that the Giants would at least wait until a GM was in place to make a move ...
Maybe the meetings he was suppose to have today with Mara didn't go well or they've been talking to potential GM candidates who have already exclaimed their preference.
Quote:
I know some people (who I trust) who know Judge personally, and by those accounts he's a tremendously good dude.
I won't dance on his grave, but I think this parting of ways was warranted.
I wish him luck. He stepped into a really dysfunctional situation here with a terrible GM. I think he can become a quality HC.
Agree. The personal vilification is uncalled for and reflects poorly on the fanbase and some of the individuals on this site. I just don't understand why some resort to that kind of juvenile behavior.
I don't understand this whole personal vilification BS he's in the public spotlight and acted like an idiot. When celebrities act like idiots everyone is cool with it. Because he's a football coach we shouldn't say he's acting dumb? Give me a break. He acts like he's so tough, he of all people should be able to hear that he's acting like an idiot
Quote:
In comment 15546746 Red Right Hand said:
Quote:
"I said before the season started that I wanted to feel good about the direction we were headed when we played our last game of the season. Unfortunately, I cannot make that statement, which is why we have made this decision."
John Mara
So if Judge had acted like a professional the last week or so and won the game with Fromm, he'd be coming back next year?
It's not the losing that did him in, it's the embarrassment. They would have pinned the losses on injuries. The embarrassment was impossible to dismiss.
Quote:
behind the Flores firing than we’re hearing about.
He is a hard ass. The owner wanted Tua, the GM sided with the owner, Flores wasn't very secretive with his belief Tua is not the guy. Actually similar to Judge he also had a lot of staff turnover and there was concern about that moving forward. The power struggle was going to get worse.
Apparently Flores pushed for Watson as well and the owner said no.
That said, two winning seasons in a row with the Dolphins is impressive. I think he's better off leaving now.
The NE style is tough to pull off w/o consistent winning...even then the act can wear thin.
Not only that but really treated his players badly, wouldn’t even say hello to them when they passed in hallways.
Pat Kerwin believes he was warned about this several times, but did whatever the fuck he wanted.
Ralph Vacchiano
Ralph Vacchiano
✔
@RVacchianoSNY
It's stunning how quickly things unravelled for Joe Judge. About 2 1/2 months ago John Mara said publicly he fully supported his coach. Less than a month ago, he seemed to fully back him, according to those inside the Giants building ..
... The tide against Judge really turned, I'm told, over the last two weeks. The team and coach had become a punchline and that was unacceptable.
Still, as of this morning, it appeared to many inside that the Giants would at least wait until a GM was in place to make a move ...
That clown show picture, it broke him.
I have nightmares about this. It would feel like hiring two guys with big fake moustaches named Domingo Gettlemanez and Jose Judgio.
Quote:
In comment 15546488 Enzo said:
Quote:
days to figure out they had to make this move, lol.
This is a business. Season ended Sunday. They met with judge Monday. Owners met and discussed today, and met again and fired him this afternoon. It's all good, dude, don't make more of it than it is.
thanks for pointing out when the season ended, lol. I wonder how the teams that managed to fire their coaches before lunch yesterday managed to pull off such a difficult trick!
Further, an I mistaken, or does John Mara not say, every year, that they meet at the end of the year, discuss, and then make their decision as to what they do next? Not only that, Tisch says it as well. For my part, I assumed their standard procedure that they've followed for years was common knowledge. Hope I was able to help.
He really controlled his own destiny here. I think the pressure got to him and made him act so abberrant. It's the talking that did him in. He was like a drowning man out there.
Quote:
No thanks. Lol
I have nightmares about this. It would feel like hiring two guys with big fake moustaches named Domingo Gettlemanez and Jose Judgio.
Haha well done
Big no on Pioli for me too. Out of the league almost a decade. Yeah I'm sure he's kept in touch with friends in the business, but that's not the same as a candidate with hands on experience helping run a team in the modern age of analytics and scouting
Can you confirm that it was pressure from GM candidates that pushed this over the edge?
Quote:
In comment 15546508 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
yesterday's meeting with Mara and Tisch and today to make this happen? All eight GM candidates said "I am only talking to you if firing Judge is on the table?"
What happened was Mara and Tisch had their own meeting today after they spoke to judge yesterday, just like they are supposed to. Or did you think they should have had the discussion with Judge in the room?
Phones blew up with season ticket cancellations plus media coverage. The franchise was everybody’s dart board. I’ve never heard the phrase “clown show” used so much. Ever
Either way, if they liked what he said and thought he was the guy, he'd still be here. Ultimately they lost faith in him.
over and over again.
Another One Bites The Dust - ( New Window )
::Tom Quinn grabs manilla envelope with photographs out of his safe::
Hi hopes for Judge
Hi hopes for Shurmur
Hi hopes for McAdoo
Rinse repeat ….hope not !!!
Well, said.
Quote:
No thanks. Lol
I have nightmares about this. It would feel like hiring two guys with big fake moustaches named Domingo Gettlemanez and Jose Judgio.
So Senor Speilbergo...
Come alive in 25!
Abysmal lack of talent.
Abysmal lack of coaching.
when his name first appeared as a candidate I pegged him as the dark horse, and was really happy when he got the job. This year, especially the last month, went so far off the rails I couldn't support him anymore.
But the head coach is responsible for the offense, and that was as bad a two season run of offense you'll ever see.
Agreed. I thought that was a turning point. Boy, I was wrong
Quote:
Congrats everyone. Too good of a fanbase to have a coach like that.
Can you confirm that it was pressure from GM candidates that pushed this over the edge?
I've been busy but I'll ask around about the current list. I know many who dream of this opportunity already have their list of guys in mind. It would severely limit the pool of candidates and even the quality of candidates if ownership tried to force a coach who is clearly in over his head.
But you guys have to understand it's not just the coach. They want their own guys in the personnel department as well. Like-minded guys they know and trust.
Johnny Ringo
Yes he is...
I really like him and his enthusiasm. He just wasn't ready for prime-time. In a lot of ways he reminds me of Spags.
He ran into a perfect storm of ineptness starting in the Front Office (a GM who had lost his "mojo"), a nervous Nelly owner, incompetent coaching staff (and not-to-mention a ton of injuries).
So, instead of a John-Paul-Jones "hell with the torpedos, full speed ahead", he retreated into "let's just not lose"mentality - THAT is what (despite the players' loyalty, destroyed their belief they could win).
I just hope the next GM-combo doesn't take a wrecking ball to the place, the cupboard's not bare.
I really like him and his enthusiasm. He just wasn't ready for prime-time. In a lot of ways he reminds me of Spags.
He ran into a perfect storm of ineptness starting in the Front Office (a GM who had lost his "mojo"), a nervous Nelly owner, incompetent coaching staff (and not-to-mention a ton of injuries).
So, instead of a John-Paul-Jones "hell with the torpedos, full speed ahead", he retreated into "let's just not lose"mentality - THAT is what (despite the players' loyalty, destroyed their belief they could win).
I just hope the next GM-combo doesn't take a wrecking ball to the place, the cupboard's not bare.
He had a major say in all personnel decisions. Almost his entire coaching staff was hand-picked by him, mostly SEC coaches.
But yeah, he's the victim here.
I'm relieved. I legitimately couldn't watch another year of a Judge-coached team. His style is an insult to the NFL.
I'm relieved. I legitimately couldn't watch another year of a Judge-coached team. His style is an insult to the NFL.
Insult is a good word. By the end he was insulting the fans (whether on purpose or inadvertently) and completely embarrassing the franchize. He needed to go.
1. He chose the right Defensive Coordinater
2. The team played hard for him all of last year
3. Watching his weekly YouTube show, you could see how detail oriented he was and was very clear in his teaching.
I think he was torpedoed by a few things.
1. Gentleman and this atrocity of a roster
2. Garrett and his archaic offense
Mara said he’s a young coach who will need time to succeed. His game management should have been further along in year 2. That’s my biggest issue…. The immaturity shown with the press these final 6 weeks was him buckling under the immense pressure of a crumbling franchise.
With all of that being said this had to happen in order to get all facets of the organization on the same page. Unfortunately Judge was working with the biggest dopes in football.
1. He chose the right Defensive Coordinater
2. The team played hard for him all of last year
3. Watching his weekly YouTube show, you could see how detail oriented he was and was very clear in his teaching.
I think he was torpedoed by a few things.
1. Gentleman and this atrocity of a roster
2. Garrett and his archaic offense
Mara said he’s a young coach who will need time to succeed. His game management should have been further along in year 2. That’s my biggest issue…. The immaturity shown with the press these final 6 weeks was him buckling under the immense pressure of a crumbling franchise.
With all of that being said this had to happen in order to get all facets of the organization on the same page. Unfortunately Judge was working with the biggest dopes in football.
Judge was over his head. If you can't see it...
Quote:
But I think Joe Judge will be a Head Coach again and will succeed. It’s going out on a limb, but I did see some positives to go along with his passion, or gift of gab.
1. He chose the right Defensive Coordinater
2. The team played hard for him all of last year
3. Watching his weekly YouTube show, you could see how detail oriented he was and was very clear in his teaching.
I think he was torpedoed by a few things.
1. Gentleman and this atrocity of a roster
2. Garrett and his archaic offense
Mara said he’s a young coach who will need time to succeed. His game management should have been further along in year 2. That’s my biggest issue…. The immaturity shown with the press these final 6 weeks was him buckling under the immense pressure of a crumbling franchise.
With all of that being said this had to happen in order to get all facets of the organization on the same page. Unfortunately Judge was working with the biggest dopes in football.
Judge was over his head. If you can't see it...
Oh, I saw it. But I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets a second Head Coaching shot and succeeds.
He's not our problem anymore
He doesn't need tears.
He doesn't need tears.
Totally agree. The way Saban's staff turns over, and with pro coaches welcome, I suspect Judge will have an opportunity in Tuscaloosa anytime he wants.
He's not our problem anymore
No chance. He killed that the last month and a half and especially the last few weeks. He wasn't even a strong candidate to begin with. He was a rogue hire because he talked tough and told people what they want to hear in an interview, but didn't know how to achieve any of it.
Even now, I'd argue he's worsened as a coach because of this tenure. He needs a few years of rehab down at the college level as an assistant and maybe he can get a Division II job somewhere.
I don't think Belichick would even take him right now. He's got some radioactivity to him.
I bet JJ ends up on some staff somewhere, but I doubt he ever gets a shot @ HC again in the NFL.
I could see him getting another HC job. It just won't be anytime soon.
1. He chose the right Defensive Coordinater
2. The team played hard for him all of last year
3. Watching his weekly YouTube show, you could see how detail oriented he was and was very clear in his teaching.
I think he was torpedoed by a few things.
1. Gentleman and this atrocity of a roster
2. Garrett and his archaic offense
Mara said he’s a young coach who will need time to succeed. His game management should have been further along in year 2. That’s my biggest issue…. The immaturity shown with the press these final 6 weeks was him buckling under the immense pressure of a crumbling franchise.
With all of that being said this had to happen in order to get all facets of the organization on the same page. Unfortunately Judge was working with the biggest dopes in football.
Very much agree. Particularly with the buckling at the end. Once it was clear gettlemen was done they turned on him and it was too much. It’s been a feeding frenzy for 2 months. Absolutely an organizational failure.
Well hope springs eternal
Quote:
But I think Joe Judge will be a Head Coach again and will succeed. It’s going out on a limb, but I did see some positives to go along with his passion, or gift of gab.
1. He chose the right Defensive Coordinater
2. The team played hard for him all of last year
3. Watching his weekly YouTube show, you could see how detail oriented he was and was very clear in his teaching.
I think he was torpedoed by a few things.
1. Gentleman and this atrocity of a roster
2. Garrett and his archaic offense
Mara said he’s a young coach who will need time to succeed. His game management should have been further along in year 2. That’s my biggest issue…. The immaturity shown with the press these final 6 weeks was him buckling under the immense pressure of a crumbling franchise.
With all of that being said this had to happen in order to get all facets of the organization on the same page. Unfortunately Judge was working with the biggest dopes in football.
Judge was over his head. If you can't see it...
When you get sent out in the Atlantic ocean in a row boat, it's easy to look "in over your head."
Judge has many things to work on, clearly (e.g. time mgt, more aggressive offensive approach, better use of the pre-season, etc), but he was hired as a 38 year old HC and the owner stated that they needed to show patience with him. They paired him with THE WORST GM in the NFL, and 10 years worth of bad decisions. They "encouraged" Judge to hire Garrett as his OC. This is an organizational failure and it consumed a young coach that had some potential.
Quote:
But it won't be anytime soon. He's young, he's an expert bullshitter and he knows the right things to say.
He's not our problem anymore
No chance. He killed that the last month and a half and especially the last few weeks. He wasn't even a strong candidate to begin with. He was a rogue hire because he talked tough and told people what they want to hear in an interview, but didn't know how to achieve any of it.
Even now, I'd argue he's worsened as a coach because of this tenure. He needs a few years of rehab down at the college level as an assistant and maybe he can get a Division II job somewhere.
I don't think Belichick would even take him right now. He's got some radioactivity to him.
What part of Belichick or saban makes you think he cares about whether a coach is liked or not in the media?
Steve Sarkesian was fired for being a drunk on the job as a head football coach and Saban rehabbed his career and got him another HC job.
Quote:
In comment 15547549 Anakim said:
Quote:
But it won't be anytime soon. He's young, he's an expert bullshitter and he knows the right things to say.
He's not our problem anymore
No chance. He killed that the last month and a half and especially the last few weeks. He wasn't even a strong candidate to begin with. He was a rogue hire because he talked tough and told people what they want to hear in an interview, but didn't know how to achieve any of it.
Even now, I'd argue he's worsened as a coach because of this tenure. He needs a few years of rehab down at the college level as an assistant and maybe he can get a Division II job somewhere.
I don't think Belichick would even take him right now. He's got some radioactivity to him.
What part of Belichick or saban makes you think he cares about whether a coach is liked or not in the media?
Steve Sarkesian was fired for being a drunk on the job as a head football coach and Saban rehabbed his career and got him another HC job.
In the eyes of guys like Belichick and Saban, Judge was fired for a much worse reason - for sucking.
Quote:
In comment 15547639 Sammo85 said:
Quote:
In comment 15547549 Anakim said:
Quote:
But it won't be anytime soon. He's young, he's an expert bullshitter and he knows the right things to say.
He's not our problem anymore
No chance. He killed that the last month and a half and especially the last few weeks. He wasn't even a strong candidate to begin with. He was a rogue hire because he talked tough and told people what they want to hear in an interview, but didn't know how to achieve any of it.
Even now, I'd argue he's worsened as a coach because of this tenure. He needs a few years of rehab down at the college level as an assistant and maybe he can get a Division II job somewhere.
I don't think Belichick would even take him right now. He's got some radioactivity to him.
What part of Belichick or saban makes you think he cares about whether a coach is liked or not in the media?
Steve Sarkesian was fired for being a drunk on the job as a head football coach and Saban rehabbed his career and got him another HC job.
In the eyes of guys like Belichick and Saban, Judge was fired for a much worse reason - for sucking.
He did the same for Lane Kiffin, another notorious loser until the Saban Jedi Training.
Hope he learns, has success in college, and get back to the NFL one day.
Judge really wore out his welcome inside the building over the last 4-6 weeks.
He lost some players with the two QB sneaks inside the 5.
It sounds like he demanded heavy personnel influence for next season.
Tisch was furious and had a major influence into this decision.
After Judge was let go he followed up with people in organization close to the situation. The reaction was “We’ll be fine. Time to move on”.
Quote:
I really like him and his enthusiasm. He just wasn't ready for prime-time. In a lot of ways he reminds me of Spags.
He ran into a perfect storm of ineptness starting in the Front Office (a GM who had lost his "mojo"), a nervous Nelly owner, incompetent coaching staff (and not-to-mention a ton of injuries).
So, instead of a John-Paul-Jones "hell with the torpedos, full speed ahead", he retreated into "let's just not lose"mentality - THAT is what (despite the players' loyalty, destroyed their belief they could win).
I just hope the next GM-combo doesn't take a wrecking ball to the place, the cupboard's not bare.
He had a major say in all personnel decisions. Almost his entire coaching staff was hand-picked by him, mostly SEC coaches.
But yeah, he's the victim here.
+1
Last year the lack of accountability for EEngram left me concerned about both how genuine JJ’s tough disciplinarian talk was and also his ability to assess football talent. The timeout issues, unforced penalties, and overly cautious in-game decisions also left me concerned about his strategic sense and organization skills. After Seattle, I chalked it up to 1st year young coach issues, COVID affecting training and a bad backup QB situation.. It only grew worse this year — and that was to start the season when most everything he wanted was in place, Wasn’t a confidence builder. What transpired the last 6 weeks and the 79-0 at the half was just about the worst I’ve ever seen. Utterly indefensible. His deflection, lobbying and obvious spin was a bad look — and maybe revealed a bit of his true character. The fact there was even a chance of him coming back had me reassessing any belief in ownership’s competence.
With DG/JJ going and if the Giants hire a GM from a successful outside Org with a revamp of personnel/scouting, then maybe this is a true reset with ownership/family stepping out of personnel and football operations. It would provide a real chance for a turnaround. If so, then we can at least feel good that the owners are capable of substantial and meaningful change. I’m interested to see how this plays out.
Judge really wore out his welcome inside the building over the last 4-6 weeks.
He lost some players with the two QB sneaks inside the 5.
It sounds like he demanded heavy personnel influence for next season.
Tisch was furious and had a major influence into this decision.
After Judge was let go he followed up with people in organization close to the situation. The reaction was “We’ll be fine. Time to move on”.
Thanks for that summary.
Judge really wore out his welcome inside the building over the last 4-6 weeks.
He lost some players with the two QB sneaks inside the 5.
It sounds like he demanded heavy personnel influence for next season.
Tisch was furious and had a major influence into this decision.
After Judge was let go he followed up with people in organization close to the situation. The reaction was “We’ll be fine. Time to move on”.
Like I said yesterday! Tisch to save the day!!
But you can’t saddle a new GM with Judge. Any GM worth his salt wants a clean slate. Many would be accepting of an incumbent HC who was well regarded, but that’s obviously not the case. Judge isn’t owed anything beyond his salary, and team had to make this move to get the best GM they can.
LOL!
Although $15 mil for not not working...
1) Throw other coaches under the bus
2) QB sneak in victory formation twice in a row
There were a number of other things I personally would have fired him for. But IMO he would still have his job were it not for these two things. He could have had a 10:30 rant that just omitted the part where he broke unwritten football rules and he'd still have a job.
He had tough circumstances. He made them harder on himself. That's why he doesn't have a job.
Some people I'm sad to see leave the front office of my team. Most I'm fairly neutral towards as I wish them the best but do not want them associated with the teams I root for.
There are only 3 people ever for teams that I've rooted for that I was more than happy to see go:
1) DG
2) JJ
3) Isiah Thomas
That's the list. And the fact that the Giants employed two of the most unsuccessful yet arrogant SOBs I've ever seen as team leaders of any franchise is a bit terrifying TBH. But I'm trying to be hopeful that they want to fix this.
I can understand getting your hopes up for JJ, not as much DG lol. But he was such a fraud, I don't understand any pity for the guy. Him calling after being fired to check if he was missed? I guess? is just so in line with everything that was wrong with him. I am fairly confident I'll never again see such an insecure person as a leader of a team, ever again.
He's been very slow to fix any mistakes and he's quick to blame others for his mistakes.
These are all signs of inexperience. He actually might be a good coach down the road, but he wasn't close to ready now.
Quote:
In comment 15547484 aimrocky said:
Quote:
But I think Joe Judge will be a Head Coach again and will succeed. It’s going out on a limb, but I did see some positives to go along with his passion, or gift of gab.
1. He chose the right Defensive Coordinater
2. The team played hard for him all of last year
3. Watching his weekly YouTube show, you could see how detail oriented he was and was very clear in his teaching.
I think he was torpedoed by a few things.
1. Gentleman and this atrocity of a roster
2. Garrett and his archaic offense
Mara said he’s a young coach who will need time to succeed. His game management should have been further along in year 2. That’s my biggest issue…. The immaturity shown with the press these final 6 weeks was him buckling under the immense pressure of a crumbling franchise.
With all of that being said this had to happen in order to get all facets of the organization on the same page. Unfortunately Judge was working with the biggest dopes in football.
Judge was over his head. If you can't see it...
When you get sent out in the Atlantic ocean in a row boat, it's easy to look "in over your head."
Judge has many things to work on, clearly (e.g. time mgt, more aggressive offensive approach, better use of the pre-season, etc), but he was hired as a 38 year old HC and the owner stated that they needed to show patience with him. They paired him with THE WORST GM in the NFL, and 10 years worth of bad decisions. They "encouraged" Judge to hire Garrett as his OC. This is an organizational failure and it consumed a young coach that had some potential.
+100
Getting a new GM from outside the organization is the most important thing. Hopefully that leads to a HC that finally delivers after 3 straight losers leading the team.
1) Throw other coaches under the bus
2) QB sneak in victory formation twice in a row
There were a number of other things I personally would have fired him for. But IMO he would still have his job were it not for these two things. He could have had a 10:30 rant that just omitted the part where he broke unwritten football rules and he'd still have a job.
He had tough circumstances. He made them harder on himself. That's why he doesn't have a job.
Some people I'm sad to see leave the front office of my team. Most I'm fairly neutral towards as I wish them the best but do not want them associated with the teams I root for.
There are only 3 people ever for teams that I've rooted for that I was more than happy to see go:
1) DG
2) JJ
3) Isiah Thomas
That's the list. And the fact that the Giants employed two of the most unsuccessful yet arrogant SOBs I've ever seen as team leaders of any franchise is a bit terrifying TBH. But I'm trying to be hopeful that they want to fix this.
I can understand getting your hopes up for JJ, not as much DG lol. But he was such a fraud, I don't understand any pity for the guy. Him calling after being fired to check if he was missed? I guess? is just so in line with everything that was wrong with him. I am fairly confident I'll never again see such an insecure person as a leader of a team, ever again.
Good post right there...
It sounds like he demanded heavy personnel influence for next season.
I was living in the SF Bay Area for Hue Jackson's one season as Raiders' HC.
Raiders got off to a 7-4 start and HJ was in his glory. Then they lost 4 of their last 5, including a Week 17 home loss that knocked them out of a playoff spot.
HJ gave a meltdown post-game PC, saying how sick he was at the result, and how he wouldn't be feeling that way at this time next season because he would be taking control of personnel decisions.
I thought: that is really not a wise thing to say.
He was fired shortly afterwards and it took five years for him to get another HC shot with the Browns.
Judge will be lucky to get that outcome.
Bingo
Video - ( New Window )
There is no doubt in my mind that all negative chatter on here, twitter, call ins to radio shows, direct letters, and even the petition. The more things we can do, the more pressure we as fans can bring does have an effect on this ownership.
The comments that suggest anything we say and do will not matter are dead and should be buried forever!
I’d stress the human side of this. He wasn’t sufficiently qualified, walked into an awful and highly politicized situation, and gradually came unraveled. I’m sure it’s been incredibly painful for him. Hope he gets back on his feet and starts the next phase of his career soon.
Did he embarrass the org? Or was thee org already an embarrassment thrust upon him? Psst? It was the latter.
Judge got fucked over by DG and this leadership. And while everyone is rah fucking rah, just remember that there have been other teams that have cycled head coaches every couple years and never seem to have success...and they have historically been the bottom feeders of the league. The Giants didn't fail bc of JJ. They failed Judge in ever giving him a chance at success, and good luck to the next poor schlub, hopefully he'll get a realistic shot at building something here.
Quote:
I am 100% confident he would still have a job if he didn't
1) Throw other coaches under the bus
2) QB sneak in victory formation twice in a row
There were a number of other things I personally would have fired him for. But IMO he would still have his job were it not for these two things. He could have had a 10:30 rant that just omitted the part where he broke unwritten football rules and he'd still have a job.
He had tough circumstances. He made them harder on himself. That's why he doesn't have a job.
Some people I'm sad to see leave the front office of my team. Most I'm fairly neutral towards as I wish them the best but do not want them associated with the teams I root for.
There are only 3 people ever for teams that I've rooted for that I was more than happy to see go:
1) DG
2) JJ
3) Isiah Thomas
That's the list. And the fact that the Giants employed two of the most unsuccessful yet arrogant SOBs I've ever seen as team leaders of any franchise is a bit terrifying TBH. But I'm trying to be hopeful that they want to fix this.
I can understand getting your hopes up for JJ, not as much DG lol. But he was such a fraud, I don't understand any pity for the guy. Him calling after being fired to check if he was missed? I guess? is just so in line with everything that was wrong with him. I am fairly confident I'll never again see such an insecure person as a leader of a team, ever again.
Good post right there...
I think he also lost the locker room and other people in the Giants org. If the players don't want you its over, and in any organization you need to create relationships and not burn internal bridges. Judge did neither. I'm convinced if the players were playing hard, and had told management that they supported Judge, he'd still be here.
I am pleasantly surprised, and I feel more optimistic than I have in a decade. There is no guarantee that they finally pick the right people, but at least there is a chance. I feel like weight has been lifted. Hopefully the team now goes on the right trajectory.
I think he also lost the locker room and other people in the Giants org. If the players don't want you its over, and in any organization you need to create relationships and not burn internal bridges. Judge did neither. I'm convinced if the players were playing hard, and had told management that they supported Judge, he'd still be here.
I don't know whether he did or did not lose the locker room. Even if he did, that was not the determining factor.
His rant where he threw everybody but himself under the bus started the avalanche. Starting yesterday, he needed to the mea culpa, and present to ownership how he was going to change himself. Instead he went in brash, defiant, and arrogant which is how he always is. I am sure he was still throwing others under the bus... It stopped working.
That is what got him fired.
Quote:
to coach Special Teams?
::Tom Quinn grabs manilla envelope with photographs out of his safe::
lmfao!!!
While he had some positives, you absolutely can’t start over at the top with a new GM and keep the HC who has that 2 year record, despite all he was up against.
You start over and go complete from GM to HC. Has to be this way, as they are directly tied to each other
While he had some positives, you absolutely can’t start over at the top with a new GM and keep the HC who has that 2 year record, despite all he was up against.
You start over and go complete from GM to HC. Has to be this way, as they are directly tied to each other
Judge was a risky choice but not a modern coach. He claimed to run “multiples” but his offense was as vanilla as they come and defense was fairly vanilla both extremely conservative.
He was authoritarian style which is by no means modern.
The Mara’s played up the pats thing and sold him as modern but he wasn’t at all
He also had a chance to assess the roster after his first year. I believe he had major input in that. Compare the 2005 offseason to 2021. Perhaps you can argue some bad luck but TC had a much better understanding of what his team needed and it was addressed with results. 2021 very little. To me that doomed Judge more than the rants.
Imperative that a first time HC makes progress from year 1 to 2. History is not kind to those who don't. You can not like his rants but I was more concerned with how he viewed
"Let the new GM decide!"
Sounds like all of them did before they even interviewed
Hard pass on listening to anything that loser Giant Insider says. Spent four years berating and blocking people who said the team was headed in the wrong direction
Quote:
Please check it out.
Hard pass on listening to anything that loser Giant Insider says. Spent four years berating and blocking people who said the team was headed in the wrong direction
Did he? This is the first one I've listened to.
Quote:
In comment 15547883 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Please check it out.
Hard pass on listening to anything that loser Giant Insider says. Spent four years berating and blocking people who said the team was headed in the wrong direction
Did he? This is the first one I've listened to.
He was basically the Twitter version of FMIC
The laps?
The only saving grace was Mara is loyal to a fault sometimes but I think John was pretty convinced by the end.
Quote:
It was all fluff.
The laps?
That's not authoritarian. No one except tv people cared about that. Sterling Shepard was quoted as laughing about it and saying practices at Oklahoma were tougher.
I'm guessing, again, all speculation, but the end of the business day yesterday was the deadline to complete and present the evaluation, and ownership wasn't impressed.
That's how I'd approach it if I were on the fence internally. If he thinks players 1-20 are keepers and worth the contract, but ownership felt many of them were overcompensated or underperformed, and/or the proposed cap room after this evaluation resulted ina n untenable 2022 roster, then he was gone.
Given the performance of the roster, the team, and our cap situation, I'm sure most HC's in the league would be fired in this specific position and this gave ownership the confidence needed to pull the plug for a reset.
I'm really curious to know if this is in anyway accurate; a fun little game for me to guess and see if anything was right.
PS: I didn't read all ~8 or 9 pages of comments to see if there was an in-depth news report on the process leading to the firing, so apologies if my post is pure BS speculation hah. :)
Excited for a chance to see SOMETHING NEW at least. Even if it's a shitty team, it still gives us hope for another 1.5 years or so that we may have gotten the next few major decisions right, just like we were sort of confident for 1.5 years of Judge before the fan base collectively had enough.
Getting a reasonably accomplished general manager candidate to take the job while having to stick with Judge would have always been silly. And trying to sell him to your fanbase with season ticket renewals going out and a half-year offseason set to begin would have been backwards. History would indicate that John Mara won't get this latest reboot right, either, but at this point anything would be better than keeping this cursed experiment going.
Link - ( New Window )
Exactly what I was thinking!
That's funny and true!
.. and it reminds me of a time back in college..
What would have happened if Joe Judge came to the Giants with a different GM than Dave Gettleman, what if John Mara had hired one of the people he's interviewing now when Judge was hired? What would have happened if a different OC than Jason Garrett ran the offense?
IMO the Giants would have won more than 10 games. The OL would have looked very different. There would be edge rushers on the roster. There wouldn't be two fullbacks and another handful of special teams first players on the roster, that was Judge's fault but a smart GM would not have allowed it. And then there's the QB play. Would a different GM have kept Daniel Jones on scholarship?
HC in the NFL is a skill set that seems to be pretty rare. It also seems to be very difficult to identify. How many good ones are there? A dozen? 15? I think under better circumstances Judge would have had a shot to be one of them.
Having said all of that I think the job of trying to remake the Giants organizational dysfunction by himself into something that could win the NFL broke him. He melted down and had to go after the way the 2nd half of the season played out on and off the field.
Hopefully he saved his money and has a good financial advisor. He's going to be paid 25 million dollars for his 33 games as HC NYG. He's a young guy but IMO he's going to go to the very back of the line for another job, and I'm not talking an HC job in the NFL.
What if anything is he going to be offered? Back to a ST coach? A college HC job? Take a year off? But sometimes when you take a year off you never get a chance to get back on the coaching carousel. I wish him well and wish it would have worked out better for him and for us.
To me, seeing someone devolve under pressure as he did. Throw people under the bus, lie, etc. Shows he was made up of the wrong stuff.
The Giants podcast I highly recommend everyone listening to is The Giants Guys episode 63 with Leonard Marshall. I sports love Leonard. He's great in this interview IMO. I thought that some of what he says about the current NFL and guys the Giants should trade for (teams would never trade those players) isn't realistic or completely dialed in but the conversation on the his Giant history and Giants history in general are great and his take on the current team is pretty good too. After the dust settles on a new GM and coach I want some help here pushing him for the Giants Ring of Honor.
Not sure I am seeing this right stuff comments. Giants were very undermanned at the end. Everyone saw that. He buckled under that pressure. Not sure that element ever leaves him wherever he coaches but again I wish him well. It is a heck of a hurdle to overcome.
And even that was not true.
Exactly. Judge was the definition of style (his talk) over substance (his product).
Look, we all got fooled. I can see why Mara took was drawn in with Judge getting endorsed by BB and Saban.
But, as you know, interviewing is a process. And if executed correctly you should be able to narrow down the right people and get very close to the best hire. Hopefully the Giants are thinking about this for this opportunity and won't make the same mistakes again.
I would sum this up by saying "he had one more win with one more game; big fucking deal"