All the people saying hire Flores, I say hiring your first choice GM is the priority - my choice is Schoen - and then let him find a coach. I'm not sure about Brian Flores.
have to think that means initial feedback they got around the league was that he was an impediment.
like others I was a Judge fan until the last couple weeks. He started making excuses and virtue signaling in a way that felt counterproductive. Losing habits.
Unlike McAdoo/Shurmur I actually think Judge should eventually get another chance and think he has the chance to be a good head coach. He has raw leadership ability just didn't have the experience to make enough good decisions (though he did make some).
This 'We can't keep firing coaches after 2 seasons' narrative is so fucking dumb. If the coach sucks, cut bait. No one gives AF once you get the right guy that the dudes before him were fired after 2 years.
I know! I completely thought we had the right guy at the end of last season. Was okay (not excited) to keep him for next year, until the press conference and the cumulative impact of his play calling. He coached as if he had no confidence in the team.
The ultimate irony is that many on the outside will misread his tenure. They'll think he failed for being an ultra hard-ass, but, in fact, he was a players coach to the point of being too soft.
I wish Joe Judge the best. I do think he's really smart and that he will use this as a learning experience. I was very excited by his promise, and I do think he worked at it very hard, but he was not yet ready to be a head coach in the NFL.
He should have taken the Mississippi State job instead of walking into Gettleman's burning building. Probably better suited for college.
Not seeing any of Gettleman's white knights riding into this thread telling people how unclassy they're being. Strange.
He should’ve taken the Giants job untethered to a terrible coordinator like Jason Garrett. He got to choose his DC and made a solid hire. He should’ve told Mara that he needed to sink or swim with his own people.
He had no guy, the one he wanted got hired elsewhere...
So long Timmy Tuffnuts - don't let that door hit ya......loozer.....
Thank you JJ.
You possibly got La Familia Mara to operate a pro football organization like a pro football business.
If that ends up being true, your hiring was worth it.
yesterday's meeting with Mara and Tisch and today to make this happen? All eight GM candidates said "I am only talking to you if firing Judge is on the table?"
They listened to his plan, thought about it overnight and decided they didn’t like what he was shoveling.
yesterday's meeting with Mara and Tisch and today to make this happen? All eight GM candidates said "I am only talking to you if firing Judge is on the table?"
Phones blew up with season ticket cancellations plus media coverage. The franchise was everybody’s dart board. I’ve never heard the phrase “clown show” used so much. Ever
What happened was Mara and Tisch had their own meeting today after they spoke to judge yesterday, just like they are supposed to. Or did you think they should have had the discussion with Judge in the room?
It's a load of horse shit that Gettleman was allowed to retire
yesterday's meeting with Mara and Tisch and today to make this happen? All eight GM candidates said "I am only talking to you if firing Judge is on the table?"
What happened was Mara and Tisch had their own meeting today after they spoke to judge yesterday, just like they are supposed to. Or did you think they should have had the discussion with Judge in the room?
Phones blew up with season ticket cancellations plus media coverage. The franchise was everybody’s dart board. I’ve never heard the phrase “clown show” used so much. Ever
I think he'd do well with recruiting and coaching younger people and his X's and O's knowledge could be put to better use.
For all of his knowledge of the game he seems to lack skills in strategy and being a tactician that he needs to either lesson the competition for or have coordinators that are both excellent in that regard.
He could probably be an NFL defensive coordinator too. Or like an assistant QC coach.
The only way he could succeed as an NFL head coach IMO is in a really good situation with a strong front office with excellent systems that could also convince him to drop his ego and play to his strengths.
He didn't know how to make war. Football is a wargame.
its quite astonishing really. I think he was coming back. Then the PC. Then the pathetic game effort. Then the 2 QB sneaks. Dude really went off the rails.
Don't leave out that at the after season meeting he told Mara he wanted to pick the GM, just in case he thought Mara had missed the point, I guess. Judge went out of his way to piss on Mara.
Mara learned something from the medium Pepsi debacle.
Let’s hope we get the smart football management folks in that can safely send John back to his parlor where he can enjoy his glass of brandy and cigar again.
I know some people (who I trust) who know Judge personally, and by those accounts he's a tremendously good dude.
I won't dance on his grave, but I think this parting of ways was warranted.
I wish him luck. He stepped into a really dysfunctional situation here with a terrible GM. I think he can become a quality HC.
Agree. The personal vilification is uncalled for and reflects poorly on the fanbase and some of the individuals on this site. I just don't understand why some resort to that kind of juvenile behavior.
RE: The last 6 games made it almost impossible for Mara/Tisch
to admit, I didn't think they'd do it. I thought at most they'd leave it to the next GM, and that they would be inclined to hire one who would at least agree to keep Judge for another year. I was wrong.
I'm right there with you. I'm a bit stunned. Wonder what the turning point was in this saga.
Ultimately, management didn't address the O-line, the pittance it was got injured, and Judge never had an answer for it.
So, leaving the decisions to the "football guy" don't include who the HC is. I am both delighted and a little annoyed.
Technically they did. They simply removed an obstacle to allow the new GM to hit the ground running. Does it really matter if the new GM fired or retained JJ? It's done now let's move onto more important decisions.
It matter because Mara did his job instead of passing the buck.
But I am glad the Giants made this move obviously. This is the best thing for the franchise going forward for sure.
What this team and Judge in particular displayed in the last 6 weeks made me question whether he had any idea what he was doing at all. He seemed completely clueless on the field and that press conference sealed it.
It's stunning how quickly things unravelled for Joe Judge. About 2 1/2 months ago John Mara said publicly he fully supported his coach. Less than a month ago, he seemed to fully back him, according to those inside the Giants building ..
... The tide against Judge really turned, I'm told, over the last two weeks. The team and coach had become a punchline and that was unacceptable.
Still, as of this morning, it appeared to many inside that the Giants would at least wait until a GM was in place to make a move ...
behind the Flores firing than we’re hearing about.
He is a hard ass. The owner wanted Tua, the GM sided with the owner, Flores wasn't very secretive with his belief Tua is not the guy. Actually similar to Judge he also had a lot of staff turnover and there was concern about that moving forward. The power struggle was going to get worse.
Apparently Flores pushed for Watson as well and the owner said no.
That said, two winning seasons in a row with the Dolphins is impressive. I think he's better off leaving now.
The NE style is tough to pull off w/o consistent winning...even then the act can wear thin.
"I said before the season started that I wanted to feel good about the direction we were headed when we played our last game of the season. Unfortunately, I cannot make that statement, which is why we have made this decision."
John Mara
So if Judge had acted like a professional the last week or so and won the game with Fromm, he'd be coming back next year?
I have no opinion on that.
I do take Mara at his word, though. He said he needed to feel good about the direction they were heading after the last game, and he didn't.
Feel free to point out John Mara's many shortcomings and inadequacies. But do not take away from a man what is his. Whatever his reasons, this was him doing his job, and making the right call.
It's stunning how quickly things unravelled for Joe Judge. About 2 1/2 months ago John Mara said publicly he fully supported his coach. Less than a month ago, he seemed to fully back him, according to those inside the Giants building ..
... The tide against Judge really turned, I'm told, over the last two weeks. The team and coach had become a punchline and that was unacceptable.
Still, as of this morning, it appeared to many inside that the Giants would at least wait until a GM was in place to make a move ...
Maybe the meetings he was suppose to have today with Mara didn't go well or they've been talking to potential GM candidates who have already exclaimed their preference.
I know some people (who I trust) who know Judge personally, and by those accounts he's a tremendously good dude.
I won't dance on his grave, but I think this parting of ways was warranted.
I wish him luck. He stepped into a really dysfunctional situation here with a terrible GM. I think he can become a quality HC.
Agree. The personal vilification is uncalled for and reflects poorly on the fanbase and some of the individuals on this site. I just don't understand why some resort to that kind of juvenile behavior.
I don't understand this whole personal vilification BS he's in the public spotlight and acted like an idiot. When celebrities act like idiots everyone is cool with it. Because he's a football coach we shouldn't say he's acting dumb? Give me a break. He acts like he's so tough, he of all people should be able to hear that he's acting like an idiot
"I said before the season started that I wanted to feel good about the direction we were headed when we played our last game of the season. Unfortunately, I cannot make that statement, which is why we have made this decision."
John Mara
So if Judge had acted like a professional the last week or so and won the game with Fromm, he'd be coming back next year?
It's not the losing that did him in, it's the embarrassment. They would have pinned the losses on injuries. The embarrassment was impossible to dismiss.
Right.It was untenable, for a number of reasons, the embarrasment is what made John Mara able to do it, even if he had to do it for other reasons. He just couldn't stay, right or wrong, deserved or undeserved. He had to go. The clown meme market was through the roof, no sign of slowing down either.
behind the Flores firing than we’re hearing about.
He is a hard ass. The owner wanted Tua, the GM sided with the owner, Flores wasn't very secretive with his belief Tua is not the guy. Actually similar to Judge he also had a lot of staff turnover and there was concern about that moving forward. The power struggle was going to get worse.
Apparently Flores pushed for Watson as well and the owner said no.
That said, two winning seasons in a row with the Dolphins is impressive. I think he's better off leaving now.
The NE style is tough to pull off w/o consistent winning...even then the act can wear thin.
Not only that but really treated his players badly, wouldn’t even say hello to them when they passed in hallways.
Pat Kerwin believes he was warned about this several times, but did whatever the fuck he wanted.
at the end of the day he wanted Daboll as his OC, but he couldn't get him. As a young 1st time head coach management foists Garrett on him. He should have pulled the plug on Garrett going into the season but he gave him a 2nd year and by the time he did can him he had effectively 1 game with an NFL caliber QB and they won. Then Jones is out for the rest of the year and the team hits the lowest low I have ever witnessed. Before he gets a chance to replace Garrett he's out as head coach and everyone is clamoring for his 1st choice as OC as the new Head Coach. I get it, but that doesn't mean I cant feel bad for him.
It's stunning how quickly things unravelled for Joe Judge. About 2 1/2 months ago John Mara said publicly he fully supported his coach. Less than a month ago, he seemed to fully back him, according to those inside the Giants building ..
... The tide against Judge really turned, I'm told, over the last two weeks. The team and coach had become a punchline and that was unacceptable.
Still, as of this morning, it appeared to many inside that the Giants would at least wait until a GM was in place to make a move ...
days to figure out they had to make this move, lol.
This is a business. Season ended Sunday. They met with judge Monday. Owners met and discussed today, and met again and fired him this afternoon. It's all good, dude, don't make more of it than it is.
thanks for pointing out when the season ended, lol. I wonder how the teams that managed to fire their coaches before lunch yesterday managed to pull off such a difficult trick!
I don't. They probably decided quite some time ago, wouldn't you think?
Further, an I mistaken, or does John Mara not say, every year, that they meet at the end of the year, discuss, and then make their decision as to what they do next? Not only that, Tisch says it as well. For my part, I assumed their standard procedure that they've followed for years was common knowledge. Hope I was able to help.
All the people saying hire Flores, I say hiring your first choice GM is the priority - my choice is Schoen - and then let him find a coach. I'm not sure about Brian Flores.
like others I was a Judge fan until the last couple weeks. He started making excuses and virtue signaling in a way that felt counterproductive. Losing habits.
Unlike McAdoo/Shurmur I actually think Judge should eventually get another chance and think he has the chance to be a good head coach. He has raw leadership ability just didn't have the experience to make enough good decisions (though he did make some).
"After long discussions within the Mara family, we've decided to sell our share of the Giants to a management group headed by the Manning family."
Quote:
In comment 15546476 JonC said:
Quote:
2021 was a disaster across the board including JJ.
It was even worse than 2003 and 2017. Mind boggling to even think that.
I dunno. 2003 was pretty rough.
Yea it’s a steel cage match. Two shitty years enter one shitty year leaves.
"After long discussions within the Mara family, we've decided to sell our share of the Giants to a management group headed by the Manning family."
Did Judge mandate involvement in GM decision or some kind of powerplay?
Or massive negative feedback?
Why not wait for GM after yesterday....something happened
He is similar to Judge persona wise, typically the Giants hire a different personality than the previous HC.
Judge can be a good HC, probably on the college level first. Needs to make adjustments. He was in over his head.
I also like Schoen / Daboll.
That band aid is starting to rip...
The ultimate irony is that many on the outside will misread his tenure. They'll think he failed for being an ultra hard-ass, but, in fact, he was a players coach to the point of being too soft.
I wish Joe Judge the best. I do think he's really smart and that he will use this as a learning experience. I was very excited by his promise, and I do think he worked at it very hard, but he was not yet ready to be a head coach in the NFL.
In comment 15546740 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Almost impossible at this level without enough good talent.
Hopefully he takes some time and evaluates lessons learned. At 40 he has ample time to rebound. Good luck Coach.
There's a story to be told about how he could manage 2020 so well and utterly fall apart in 2021
Ridi Pagliaccio - ( New Window )
Quote:
He should have taken the Mississippi State job instead of walking into Gettleman's burning building. Probably better suited for college.
Not seeing any of Gettleman's white knights riding into this thread telling people how unclassy they're being. Strange.
He should’ve taken the Giants job untethered to a terrible coordinator like Jason Garrett. He got to choose his DC and made a solid hire. He should’ve told Mara that he needed to sink or swim with his own people.
Thank you JJ.
You possibly got La Familia Mara to operate a pro football organization like a pro football business.
If that ends up being true, your hiring was worth it.
They listened to his plan, thought about it overnight and decided they didn’t like what he was shoveling.
Quote:
yesterday's meeting with Mara and Tisch and today to make this happen? All eight GM candidates said "I am only talking to you if firing Judge is on the table?"
Phones blew up with season ticket cancellations plus media coverage. The franchise was everybody’s dart board. I’ve never heard the phrase “clown show” used so much. Ever
What happened was Mara and Tisch had their own meeting today after they spoke to judge yesterday, just like they are supposed to. Or did you think they should have had the discussion with Judge in the room?
Quote:
yesterday's meeting with Mara and Tisch and today to make this happen? All eight GM candidates said "I am only talking to you if firing Judge is on the table?"
What happened was Mara and Tisch had their own meeting today after they spoke to judge yesterday, just like they are supposed to. Or did you think they should have had the discussion with Judge in the room?
Phones blew up with season ticket cancellations plus media coverage. The franchise was everybody’s dart board. I’ve never heard the phrase “clown show” used so much. Ever
For all of his knowledge of the game he seems to lack skills in strategy and being a tactician that he needs to either lesson the competition for or have coordinators that are both excellent in that regard.
He could probably be an NFL defensive coordinator too. Or like an assistant QC coach.
The only way he could succeed as an NFL head coach IMO is in a really good situation with a strong front office with excellent systems that could also convince him to drop his ego and play to his strengths.
Let’s hope we get the smart football management folks in that can safely send John back to his parlor where he can enjoy his glass of brandy and cigar again.
I won't dance on his grave, but I think this parting of ways was warranted.
I wish him luck. He stepped into a really dysfunctional situation here with a terrible GM. I think he can become a quality HC.
Agree. The personal vilification is uncalled for and reflects poorly on the fanbase and some of the individuals on this site. I just don't understand why some resort to that kind of juvenile behavior.
to bring back Joe Judge for another season.
I wish Joe Judge all the best of luck in the future.
I was a big Joe Judge supporter but I agree with you completely. Those last 6 games were EXTREMELY ugly!
Quote:
to admit, I didn't think they'd do it. I thought at most they'd leave it to the next GM, and that they would be inclined to hire one who would at least agree to keep Judge for another year. I was wrong.
I'm right there with you. I'm a bit stunned. Wonder what the turning point was in this saga.
Quote:
So, leaving the decisions to the "football guy" don't include who the HC is. I am both delighted and a little annoyed.
Technically they did. They simply removed an obstacle to allow the new GM to hit the ground running. Does it really matter if the new GM fired or retained JJ? It's done now let's move onto more important decisions.
What this team and Judge in particular displayed in the last 6 weeks made me question whether he had any idea what he was doing at all. He seemed completely clueless on the field and that press conference sealed it.
Ralph Vacchiano
Ralph Vacchiano
✔
@RVacchianoSNY
It's stunning how quickly things unravelled for Joe Judge. About 2 1/2 months ago John Mara said publicly he fully supported his coach. Less than a month ago, he seemed to fully back him, according to those inside the Giants building ..
... The tide against Judge really turned, I'm told, over the last two weeks. The team and coach had become a punchline and that was unacceptable.
Still, as of this morning, it appeared to many inside that the Giants would at least wait until a GM was in place to make a move ...
Quote:
No thanks. Lol
Charlie Weis has also been talking up Pioli. Maybe it's NFL radio Group Think.
I respect banks but he is another Giants figure trapped in connections to Belichick
He is a hard ass. The owner wanted Tua, the GM sided with the owner, Flores wasn't very secretive with his belief Tua is not the guy. Actually similar to Judge he also had a lot of staff turnover and there was concern about that moving forward. The power struggle was going to get worse.
Apparently Flores pushed for Watson as well and the owner said no.
That said, two winning seasons in a row with the Dolphins is impressive. I think he's better off leaving now.
The NE style is tough to pull off w/o consistent winning...even then the act can wear thin.
Quote:
"I said before the season started that I wanted to feel good about the direction we were headed when we played our last game of the season. Unfortunately, I cannot make that statement, which is why we have made this decision."
John Mara
So if Judge had acted like a professional the last week or so and won the game with Fromm, he'd be coming back next year?
I do take Mara at his word, though. He said he needed to feel good about the direction they were heading after the last game, and he didn't.
Feel free to point out John Mara's many shortcomings and inadequacies. But do not take away from a man what is his. Whatever his reasons, this was him doing his job, and making the right call.
Announcement - ( New Window )
Ralph Vacchiano
Ralph Vacchiano
✔
@RVacchianoSNY
It's stunning how quickly things unravelled for Joe Judge. About 2 1/2 months ago John Mara said publicly he fully supported his coach. Less than a month ago, he seemed to fully back him, according to those inside the Giants building ..
... The tide against Judge really turned, I'm told, over the last two weeks. The team and coach had become a punchline and that was unacceptable.
Still, as of this morning, it appeared to many inside that the Giants would at least wait until a GM was in place to make a move ...
Maybe the meetings he was suppose to have today with Mara didn't go well or they've been talking to potential GM candidates who have already exclaimed their preference.
Quote:
I know some people (who I trust) who know Judge personally, and by those accounts he's a tremendously good dude.
I won't dance on his grave, but I think this parting of ways was warranted.
I wish him luck. He stepped into a really dysfunctional situation here with a terrible GM. I think he can become a quality HC.
Agree. The personal vilification is uncalled for and reflects poorly on the fanbase and some of the individuals on this site. I just don't understand why some resort to that kind of juvenile behavior.
I don't understand this whole personal vilification BS he's in the public spotlight and acted like an idiot. When celebrities act like idiots everyone is cool with it. Because he's a football coach we shouldn't say he's acting dumb? Give me a break. He acts like he's so tough, he of all people should be able to hear that he's acting like an idiot
Quote:
In comment 15546746 Red Right Hand said:
Quote:
"I said before the season started that I wanted to feel good about the direction we were headed when we played our last game of the season. Unfortunately, I cannot make that statement, which is why we have made this decision."
John Mara
So if Judge had acted like a professional the last week or so and won the game with Fromm, he'd be coming back next year?
It's not the losing that did him in, it's the embarrassment. They would have pinned the losses on injuries. The embarrassment was impossible to dismiss.
Quote:
behind the Flores firing than we’re hearing about.
He is a hard ass. The owner wanted Tua, the GM sided with the owner, Flores wasn't very secretive with his belief Tua is not the guy. Actually similar to Judge he also had a lot of staff turnover and there was concern about that moving forward. The power struggle was going to get worse.
Apparently Flores pushed for Watson as well and the owner said no.
That said, two winning seasons in a row with the Dolphins is impressive. I think he's better off leaving now.
The NE style is tough to pull off w/o consistent winning...even then the act can wear thin.
Not only that but really treated his players badly, wouldn’t even say hello to them when they passed in hallways.
Pat Kerwin believes he was warned about this several times, but did whatever the fuck he wanted.
Ralph Vacchiano
Ralph Vacchiano
✔
@RVacchianoSNY
It's stunning how quickly things unravelled for Joe Judge. About 2 1/2 months ago John Mara said publicly he fully supported his coach. Less than a month ago, he seemed to fully back him, according to those inside the Giants building ..
... The tide against Judge really turned, I'm told, over the last two weeks. The team and coach had become a punchline and that was unacceptable.
Still, as of this morning, it appeared to many inside that the Giants would at least wait until a GM was in place to make a move ...
That clown show picture, it broke him.
I have nightmares about this. It would feel like hiring two guys with big fake moustaches named Domingo Gettlemanez and Jose Judgio.
Quote:
In comment 15546488 Enzo said:
Quote:
days to figure out they had to make this move, lol.
This is a business. Season ended Sunday. They met with judge Monday. Owners met and discussed today, and met again and fired him this afternoon. It's all good, dude, don't make more of it than it is.
thanks for pointing out when the season ended, lol. I wonder how the teams that managed to fire their coaches before lunch yesterday managed to pull off such a difficult trick!
Further, an I mistaken, or does John Mara not say, every year, that they meet at the end of the year, discuss, and then make their decision as to what they do next? Not only that, Tisch says it as well. For my part, I assumed their standard procedure that they've followed for years was common knowledge. Hope I was able to help.