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So how did Daniel Jones perform relative to his successors

M.S. : 1/12/2022 10:07 am

behind essentially the same offensive line?

QB Rating
Daniel Jones 84.8
Glennon/Fromm ~46.1
Jones Advantage +84%

Pass Completion Percentage
Daniel Jones 64.3%
Glennon/Fromm 51.5%
Jones Advantage +25%

Passing Yards per Attempt
Daniel Jones 6.7
Glennon/Fromm 4.4
Jones Advantage +53%

TDs per 100 Passing Attempts
Daniel Jones 2.8
Glennon/Fromm 2.2
Jones Advantage +26%

Fumbles per 100 Passing Attempts
Daniel Jones 1.4
Glennon/Fromm 3.1
Jones Advantage +55%

Fumbles Lost per 100 Passing Attempts
Daniel Jones .6
Glennon/Fromm 1.8
Jones Advantage +69%

Sacks per 100 Passing Attempts
Daniel Jones 6.1
Glennon/Fromm 6.6
Jones Advantage +8%

INTs per 100 Passing Attempts
Daniel Jones 1.9
Glennon/Fromm 5.7
Jones Advantage +66%
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RE: RE: First Round QBs drafted 2015-2019  
Go Terps : 1/12/2022 12:56 pm : link
In comment 15548972 Now Mike in MD said:
Quote:
In comment 15548936 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Only Haskins, Darnold, and Rosen turned out worse.

The only way Jones sees much more time as a starter in this league is if we rehire Gettleman as GM.





Aside from Thomas, name anther player on the Giants who would played significant minutes over the last 2 years, who would start for any other NFL team.


I know Jones wouldn't, because he sucks. He's only here because of Cutcliffe. Had he gone to Princeton you and I never would have heard of him. That's why he's here...it was an immense turn of good fortune for him.
RE: RE: First Round QBs drafted 2015-2019  
Debaser : 1/12/2022 12:57 pm : link
In comment 15548972 Now Mike in MD said:
Quote:
In comment 15548936 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Only Haskins, Darnold, and Rosen turned out worse.

The only way Jones sees much more time as a starter in this league is if we rehire Gettleman as GM.





Aside from Thomas, name anther player on the Giants who would played significant minutes over the last 2 years, who would start for any other NFL team.


Name another team Jones would start for besides the Giants?
RE: RE: RE: First Round QBs drafted 2015-2019  
Now Mike in MD : 1/12/2022 1:03 pm : link
In comment 15548989 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15548972 Now Mike in MD said:


Quote:


In comment 15548936 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Only Haskins, Darnold, and Rosen turned out worse.

The only way Jones sees much more time as a starter in this league is if we rehire Gettleman as GM.





Aside from Thomas, name anther player on the Giants who would played significant minutes over the last 2 years, who would start for any other NFL team.



I know Jones wouldn't, because he sucks. He's only here because of Cutcliffe. Had he gone to Princeton you and I never would have heard of him. That's why he's here...it was an immense turn of good fortune for him.


Way to avoid the question. Well done! I'll go even further, there are probably 4-6 guys who played significant minutes on offense the last 2 years who wouldn't even be on an NFL roster, let alone start for another team.
RE: RE: RE: Glennon's been in the league for 10 years  
rsjem1979 : 1/12/2022 1:08 pm : link
In comment 15548915 Now Mike in MD said:
Quote:
In comment 15548775 M.S. said:


Quote:


In comment 15548766 Ron Johnson said:


Quote:


and made 5 NFL rosters. Only when he got thoroughly outplayed by Jones did this notion that he's not an NFL player arise.


Precisely.



He was also thought enough of that he signed a 45 million dollar contract with the Bears


And if anyone knows QBs, it's a franchise that hasn't had a good one in 35 years and in a draft featuring both Patrick Mahomes and Deshaun Watson, traded up to draft Mitch Trubisky.
Glennon  
Debaser : 1/12/2022 1:16 pm : link
The only real thing you can say about Glennon is that in Jacksonville -- he held on to his starting job over Minshew who is better than Jones. So there is that. Not to mention he played with a concussion in his first start here and hurt his wrist in his 3 rd start. So what kind of a comparison is that anyway?

I don't think there is anything really wrong with Jones neck at all. I think after the Eagles game when they could not score , even after firing Garrett, they decided Jones and Judge would be back next year since it was not the line and the injuries were the problem. And they didn't want to risk Jones getting hurt in garbage time and behind that crap oline. If Judge didn't embarrass himself saying stupid stuff and didn't call those 2 stupid sneaks -- and if every GM I am sure theu interviewed were like "NO WAY , 10 wins I have to work with that!"
RE: I don't think  
Dutch77 : 1/12/2022 1:19 pm : link
In comment 15548805 Red Right Hand said:
Quote:
Successor means what you think it means


LMAO!!!
*was the line  
Debaser : 1/12/2022 1:19 pm : link
.
If you backed Jones  
Producer : 1/12/2022 1:34 pm : link
I know it sucks you had the wrong side.

Just come to grips with this.

He is not a starting QB in the NFL. We can never win with a QB with his deficits. Never.

Don't make it an emotional issue, like mommy and daddy are getting a divorce. Don't make it a point of principle, as though you can't admit you got it wrong. All the evidence says he can't play.

We got rid of the GM.
We got rid of the HC.
Time to get rid of the QB. He shares equally in the dysfunction.
RE: RE: RE: RE: First Round QBs drafted 2015-2019  
Go Terps : 1/12/2022 1:46 pm : link
In comment 15549014 Now Mike in MD said:
Quote:
In comment 15548989 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15548972 Now Mike in MD said:


Quote:


In comment 15548936 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Only Haskins, Darnold, and Rosen turned out worse.

The only way Jones sees much more time as a starter in this league is if we rehire Gettleman as GM.





Aside from Thomas, name anther player on the Giants who would played significant minutes over the last 2 years, who would start for any other NFL team.



I know Jones wouldn't, because he sucks. He's only here because of Cutcliffe. Had he gone to Princeton you and I never would have heard of him. That's why he's here...it was an immense turn of good fortune for him.



Way to avoid the question. Well done! I'll go even further, there are probably 4-6 guys who played significant minutes on offense the last 2 years who wouldn't even be on an NFL roster, let alone start for another team.


It's a stupid question. If Gettleman fucked up the rest of the roster why did he get Jones right?

Besides, if you knew anything about QB play you can see that Jones isn't good. The problems at Duke are still there, and they aren't the type to get better.

Don't get used to watching him play. That tedium is going away.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: First Round QBs drafted 2015-2019  
Now Mike in MD : 1/12/2022 1:57 pm : link
In comment 15549207 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15549014 Now Mike in MD said:


Quote:


In comment 15548989 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15548972 Now Mike in MD said:


Quote:


In comment 15548936 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Only Haskins, Darnold, and Rosen turned out worse.

The only way Jones sees much more time as a starter in this league is if we rehire Gettleman as GM.





Aside from Thomas, name anther player on the Giants who would played significant minutes over the last 2 years, who would start for any other NFL team.



I know Jones wouldn't, because he sucks. He's only here because of Cutcliffe. Had he gone to Princeton you and I never would have heard of him. That's why he's here...it was an immense turn of good fortune for him.



Way to avoid the question. Well done! I'll go even further, there are probably 4-6 guys who played significant minutes on offense the last 2 years who wouldn't even be on an NFL roster, let alone start for another team.



It's a stupid question. If Gettleman fucked up the rest of the roster why did he get Jones right?

Besides, if you knew anything about QB play you can see that Jones isn't good. The problems at Duke are still there, and they aren't the type to get better.

Don't get used to watching him play. That tedium is going away.


So you're saying that because DG made a lot of bad decisions, then it's impossible that he got Jones right? By that logic, Thomas is terrible and McKinney are terrible. For someone chiding my question as stupid, you undertake a stupid analysis. I would submit that claiming to know anything definitively about a QB with an abysmal offensive roster is, as you say, stupid. But I forgot you're always the smartest guy in the room. Must be nice.

And btw, you still haven't answered the question.
.  
Go Terps : 1/12/2022 2:10 pm : link
The roster around Jones sucked. Jones also sucked. Both are true.
RE: If you backed Jones  
BillKo : 1/12/2022 2:10 pm : link
In comment 15549148 Producer said:
Quote:
I know it sucks you had the wrong side.

Just come to grips with this.

He is not a starting QB in the NFL. We can never win with a QB with his deficits. Never.

Don't make it an emotional issue, like mommy and daddy are getting a divorce. Don't make it a point of principle, as though you can't admit you got it wrong. All the evidence says he can't play.

We got rid of the GM.
We got rid of the HC.
Time to get rid of the QB. He shares equally in the dysfunction.


He may be back next year, he's under contract. That could be as starter, or backup.

He could be traded.

Let's see what the next HC envisions for the team in 2022.

A lot to still unfold.
How does Jones compare to any bum QB off the street?  
US1 Giants : 1/12/2022 2:12 pm : link
.
RE: Great...  
k2tampa : 1/12/2022 2:18 pm : link
In comment 15548435 rsjem1979 said:
Quote:
Now how did he perform relative to his peers on other NFL teams?


Sadly, we can't put them behind a line that had 4 guys who would not be on the field for any other team in the NFL in order to find out.
RE: How does Jones compare to any bum QB off the street?  
M.S. : 1/12/2022 2:22 pm : link
In comment 15549314 US1 Giants said:
Quote:
.

Well, if you believe Glennon and Fromm are "bum QBs off the street," then the answer is in my thread starter.
RE: If you backed Jones  
M.S. : 1/12/2022 2:23 pm : link
In comment 15549148 Producer said:
Quote:
I know it sucks you had the wrong side.

Just come to grips with this.

He is not a starting QB in the NFL. We can never win with a QB with his deficits. Never.

Don't make it an emotional issue, like mommy and daddy are getting a divorce. Don't make it a point of principle, as though you can't admit you got it wrong. All the evidence says he can't play.

We got rid of the GM.
We got rid of the HC.
Time to get rid of the QB. He shares equally in the dysfunction.

You make it sound like everything is an absolute.
You should compare him to his peers, not his backups.  
Mike from SI : 1/12/2022 2:27 pm : link
Every starting QB should be better than his backups.
RE: RE: RE: First Round QBs drafted 2015-2019  
M.S. : 1/12/2022 2:27 pm : link
In comment 15548992 Debaser said:
Quote:
In comment 15548972 Now Mike in MD said:


Quote:


In comment 15548936 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Only Haskins, Darnold, and Rosen turned out worse.

The only way Jones sees much more time as a starter in this league is if we rehire Gettleman as GM.





Aside from Thomas, name anther player on the Giants who would played significant minutes over the last 2 years, who would start for any other NFL team.



Name another team Jones would start for besides the Giants?

Washington
Denver
New Orleans
Carolina
RE: You should compare him to his peers, not his backups.  
Now Mike in MD : 1/12/2022 2:30 pm : link
In comment 15549350 Mike from SI said:
Quote:
Every starting QB should be better than his backups.


I think the point is not that Jones was better, but that the backups were so historically bad. ALso, Glennon while never a top 18 QB, has been serviceable most of his career, and he looked completely inept with the parade of horribles on the offense
RE: You should compare him to his peers, not his backups.  
M.S. : 1/12/2022 2:31 pm : link
In comment 15549350 Mike from SI said:
Quote:
Every starting QB should be better than his backups.

Actually, the idea was to indeed compare Daniel Jones with Glennon and Fromm because all three experienced the same unique circumstances... playing behind a putrid O-line and throwing the ball to WRs who were either injured and/or replaced by several practice squad players. It's a clean comparison.

RE: RE: RE: RE: WOW  
GMen72 : 1/12/2022 2:34 pm : link
In comment 15548623 M.S. said:
Quote:
In comment 15548560 rsjem1979 said:


Quote:


In comment 15548541 M.S. said:


Quote:




Actually, Mike Glennon was considered a legit back-up QB**; that is, until he came to the Giants and played behind the league's most pathetic offensive line.

**And he's got the stats to prove it.



Let's just cut through all the BS - what's your central thesis here as it relates to Daniel Jones? Do you believe that he's going to be among the best 5-10 QBs in the NFL at any point in his career?

Because unless you believe that, there's no reason to engage in any discussion of his future with the Giants. You need an upper echelon QB in the NFL to be consistently competitive. If you don't have one, you need to find one.

Daniel Jones is near the bottom of NFL QBs. There's no comparison between him and the top tier at that position. None.



Your Words:
Let's just cut through all the BS - what's your central thesis here as it relates to Daniel Jones? Do you believe that he's going to be among the best 5-10 QBs in the NFL at any point in his career?

My Response:
If I had to venture a guess, he will not be a Top 5 QB because that is reserved for Superstars like Rogers, Brady, et. al. and Daniel Jones is simply NOT in that class. Could he be in Top 10? Dunno. But what I do know is that no one knows for certain what his top-end is? If I had to venture a guess -- maybe upper-middle of the pack?

Your Words:
Because unless you believe that, there's no reason to engage in any discussion of his future with the Giants. You need an upper echelon QB in the NFL to be consistently competitive. If you don't have one, you need to find one.

My Response:
I would love an upper echelon QB as much as anyone, but I would love one in the context of a team that is half-way competent. I've seen Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers at their very peak, and I've also seen them when former Giants defenses compressed their pass pockets and put some serious hits on them. They didn't look like super-heroes then. In any event, there are very few super-hero QBs in the NFL, and finding them is no mean feat, so in the meantime I don't see the tragedy of Daniel Jones playing for the Giants in 2022.

Your Words:
Daniel Jones is near the bottom of NFL QBs. There's no comparison between him and the top tier at that position. None.

My Response:
I disagree. He is not near the bottom. Obviously, he does not compare well to guys like Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers... but who does? Your valuation of Daniel Jones has been clouded by the reality that he has played behind a pathetic O-line with WRs and TEs who are indeed near the bottom of the NFL.


Ok. Post stats that prove he's not near the bottom. I guarantee he's at the bottom of the league in passing yards per game and passing TDs the last 2 years? The team is at the bottom of the league in points scored?

Here's the problem with your argument...you use stats with really crappy QBs, as a comparison, to try to make DJ look not so crappy...but you dont want to use stats against the rest of the NFL that show he is, in fact, crappy. Compare his career numbers to Mitch Trubisky and then tell me he's an NFL starter.
RE: RE: You should compare him to his peers, not his backups.  
Debaser : 1/12/2022 2:36 pm : link
In comment 15549363 M.S. said:
Quote:
In comment 15549350 Mike from SI said:


Quote:


Every starting QB should be better than his backups.


Actually, the idea was to indeed compare Daniel Jones with Glennon and Fromm because all three experienced the same unique circumstances... playing behind a putrid O-line and throwing the ball to WRs who were either injured and/or replaced by several practice squad players. It's a clean comparison.


Your argument assumes the same situation with a team playing for the same thing.

Can you really compare weeks 1-3 to weeks 16-18? This team has grown noticeably worse especially the offense in recent weeks. They had nothing to play for and it showed.

can you really compare a Golladay that was yelling at Garrett to the one we saw last week ; who looked like there were 1000 other places he'd rather be?
Jones is obviously near the bottom..  
Producer : 1/12/2022 2:37 pm : link
whether you want to admit it or not..

RE: RE: RE: RE: First Round QBs drafted 2015-2019  
GMen72 : 1/12/2022 2:37 pm : link
In comment 15549351 M.S. said:
Quote:
In comment 15548992 Debaser said:


Quote:


In comment 15548972 Now Mike in MD said:


Quote:


In comment 15548936 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Only Haskins, Darnold, and Rosen turned out worse.

The only way Jones sees much more time as a starter in this league is if we rehire Gettleman as GM.





Aside from Thomas, name anther player on the Giants who would played significant minutes over the last 2 years, who would start for any other NFL team.



Name another team Jones would start for besides the Giants?


Washington
Denver
New Orleans
Carolina


He's not starting for Washington, nor Denver, when Bridgewater is healthy.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: First Round QBs drafted 2015-2019  
Producer : 1/12/2022 2:42 pm : link
In comment 15549380 GMen72 said:
Quote:
In comment 15549351 M.S. said:


Quote:


In comment 15548992 Debaser said:


Quote:


In comment 15548972 Now Mike in MD said:


Quote:


In comment 15548936 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Only Haskins, Darnold, and Rosen turned out worse.

The only way Jones sees much more time as a starter in this league is if we rehire Gettleman as GM.





Aside from Thomas, name anther player on the Giants who would played significant minutes over the last 2 years, who would start for any other NFL team.



Name another team Jones would start for besides the Giants?


Washington
Denver
New Orleans
Carolina



He's not starting for Washington, nor Denver, when Bridgewater is healthy.



None of those teams will want Jones as a starter. Seriously. maybe as a backup.

Washington has a Daniel jones - his name is Heinecke. If they upgrade it will be a tier change, not a lateral move.

Denver has Bridgewater who is demonstrably better than Jones. And they want better. They want Aaron Rodgers not Jones.

Carolina tried the retread project with Darnold and failed. Ruhle is not now going to stake his career on another lousy QB.

New Orleans has Winston and Hill. Both are pretty bad, but both are better than Daniel Jones.

RE: RE: RE: RE: First Round QBs drafted 2015-2019  
Go Terps : 1/12/2022 2:50 pm : link
In comment 15549351 M.S. said:
Quote:
In comment 15548992 Debaser said:


Quote:


In comment 15548972 Now Mike in MD said:


Quote:


In comment 15548936 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Only Haskins, Darnold, and Rosen turned out worse.

The only way Jones sees much more time as a starter in this league is if we rehire Gettleman as GM.





Aside from Thomas, name anther player on the Giants who would played significant minutes over the last 2 years, who would start for any other NFL team.



Name another team Jones would start for besides the Giants?


Washington
Denver
New Orleans
Carolina


If you can only name four, then you think we need a new quarterback. And you'd be right.
Nobody settles on a bottom 10 QB  
Producer : 1/12/2022 2:54 pm : link
Bottom 10 QBs are a collection of failed journeymen, stopgaps and a few rookies.

the rookies will make a tier bump in the next year or two, If they don't they become stopgaps.

That's what Daniel Jones is. He is in the tier with transitory starters like Tyrod Taylor and backups like Trubisky.

He is nowhere near the tier of pretty good starters which includes Carr and Cousins. Nowhere near it.
RE: RE: RE: You should compare him to his peers, not his backups.  
M.S. : 1/12/2022 2:57 pm : link
In comment 15549373 Debaser said:
Quote:
In comment 15549363 M.S. said:


Quote:


In comment 15549350 Mike from SI said:


Quote:


Every starting QB should be better than his backups.


Actually, the idea was to indeed compare Daniel Jones with Glennon and Fromm because all three experienced the same unique circumstances... playing behind a putrid O-line and throwing the ball to WRs who were either injured and/or replaced by several practice squad players. It's a clean comparison.




Your argument assumes the same situation with a team playing for the same thing.

Can you really compare weeks 1-3 to weeks 16-18? This team has grown noticeably worse especially the offense in recent weeks. They had nothing to play for and it showed.

can you really compare a Golladay that was yelling at Garrett to the one we saw last week ; who looked like there were 1000 other places he'd rather be?

The Daniel Jones comparison encompasses the 11 games he played in this season. Not games 1-3.
RE: Nobody settles on a bottom 10 QB  
M.S. : 1/12/2022 3:01 pm : link
In comment 15549424 Producer said:
Quote:
Bottom 10 QBs are a collection of failed journeymen, stopgaps and a few rookies.

the rookies will make a tier bump in the next year or two, If they don't they become stopgaps.

That's what Daniel Jones is. He is in the tier with transitory starters like Tyrod Taylor and backups like Trubisky.

He is nowhere near the tier of pretty good starters which includes Carr and Cousins. Nowhere near it.

This season in head-to-head competition, Danile Jones beat Derek Carr and also out-performed him.
RE: RE: Nobody settles on a bottom 10 QB  
rsjem1979 : 1/12/2022 3:10 pm : link
In comment 15549444 M.S. said:
Quote:


This season in head-to-head competition, Danile Jones beat Derek Carr and also out-performed him.


So you'd rather have Daniel Jones at QB than Derek Carr?
RE: RE: Nobody settles on a bottom 10 QB  
Go Terps : 1/12/2022 3:11 pm : link
In comment 15549444 M.S. said:
Quote:
In comment 15549424 Producer said:


Quote:


Bottom 10 QBs are a collection of failed journeymen, stopgaps and a few rookies.

the rookies will make a tier bump in the next year or two, If they don't they become stopgaps.

That's what Daniel Jones is. He is in the tier with transitory starters like Tyrod Taylor and backups like Trubisky.

He is nowhere near the tier of pretty good starters which includes Carr and Cousins. Nowhere near it.


This season in head-to-head competition, Danile Jones beat Derek Carr and also out-performed him.


Jameis Winston beat Aaron Rodgers 38-3. Mahomes lost to Tannehill. Josh Allen lost to Trevor Lawrence. What's your point?

You could put a traffic cone at quarterback and say it had a bad supporting cast and you might be right. It doesn't make the cone a good quarterback.

Daniel Jones isn't a good quarterback. Can't be more clear than that.
Clearly....  
Dnew15 : 1/12/2022 3:34 pm : link
Daniel Jones is a great QB
Dave Gettleman is a great GM
Joe Judge is a great HC

They just needed more time and better people around them in order to succeed.
RE: RE: RE: RE: You should compare him to his peers, not his backups.  
Debaser : 1/12/2022 3:44 pm : link
In comment 15549432 M.S. said:
Quote:
In comment 15549373 Debaser said:


Quote:


In comment 15549363 M.S. said:


Quote:


In comment 15549350 Mike from SI said:


Quote:


Every starting QB should be better than his backups.


Actually, the idea was to indeed compare Daniel Jones with Glennon and Fromm because all three experienced the same unique circumstances... playing behind a putrid O-line and throwing the ball to WRs who were either injured and/or replaced by several practice squad players. It's a clean comparison.




Your argument assumes the same situation with a team playing for the same thing.

Can you really compare weeks 1-3 to weeks 16-18? This team has grown noticeably worse especially the offense in recent weeks. They had nothing to play for and it showed.

can you really compare a Golladay that was yelling at Garrett to the one we saw last week ; who looked like there were 1000 other places he'd rather be?


The Daniel Jones comparison encompasses the 11 games he played in this season. Not games 1-3.


You didn't even understand the point but were ready to defend Jones hjust the same. The question I have is Why?

Maybe I was not clear. This has not been the same team lately. The oline play was significantly better earlier in the season and the interest of the WR much higher. They have been totally checked out in recent weeks. Further more Jones got the opportunity to play 11 games . An opportunity he did not earn.
RE: RE: Nobody settles on a bottom 10 QB  
mikeinbloomfield : 1/12/2022 3:51 pm : link
In comment 15549444 M.S. said:
Quote:


This season in head-to-head competition, Danile Jones beat Derek Carr and also out-performed him.



Ha ha ha! Oh boy.
Jones and Fromm  
Bill in UT : 1/12/2022 3:56 pm : link
put the suck in successor
RE: Jones and Fromm  
M.S. : 1/12/2022 4:18 pm : link
In comment 15549577 Bill in UT said:
Quote:
put the suck in successor

(:-)
(:-(
RE: RE: Jones and Fromm  
Bill in UT : 1/12/2022 4:32 pm : link
In comment 15549618 M.S. said:
Quote:
In comment 15549577 Bill in UT said:


Quote:


put the suck in successor


(:-)
(:-(


lol, should have been Gannon and Fromm
All this Glennon doesn't belong in the NFL  
Thunderstruck27 : 1/12/2022 4:46 pm : link
Bullshit is revisionist history. He was serviceable on every team he played on before Judge and Co made him look like crap.
Next year when we sign Dalton(or some other Journeyman) are we gonna hear the same shit?
If Mike Glennon doesn't belong in the league  
Prude : 1/12/2022 4:49 pm : link
What do you think about Trevor Lawrence?

Mike Glennon 2020 Jax: TD% 3.9, INT% 2.8, Y/A 6.0, AY/A 5.5, Yards/Game 214

Rating 80, QBR 29.8

Trevor Lawrence 2021 Jax: TD% 1.8, INT% 3.0, Y/A 6.0, AY/A 5.0, Yards/game 214

Rating 69.6, QVR 32.2
RE: RE: Nobody settles on a bottom 10 QB  
Producer : 1/12/2022 5:09 pm : link
In comment 15549444 M.S. said:
Quote:
In comment 15549424 Producer said:


Quote:


Bottom 10 QBs are a collection of failed journeymen, stopgaps and a few rookies.

the rookies will make a tier bump in the next year or two, If they don't they become stopgaps.

That's what Daniel Jones is. He is in the tier with transitory starters like Tyrod Taylor and backups like Trubisky.

He is nowhere near the tier of pretty good starters which includes Carr and Cousins. Nowhere near it.


This season in head-to-head competition, Danile Jones beat Derek Carr and also out-performed him.


I think you know this is a lame argument. Superior QBs lose games to inferior QBs all the time. Earlier this season, Tom Brady lost a game to Taysom Hill. Do we really think that makes Taysom Hill better than Tom Brady? It's a fatuous, dishonest point you are making and wastes time.

If this is what you need to pump up Daniel Jones, then even you don't believe what you are saying.
RE: RE: RE: Nobody settles on a bottom 10 QB  
M.S. : 1/12/2022 5:24 pm : link
In comment 15549763 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15549444 M.S. said:


Quote:


In comment 15549424 Producer said:


Quote:


Bottom 10 QBs are a collection of failed journeymen, stopgaps and a few rookies.

the rookies will make a tier bump in the next year or two, If they don't they become stopgaps.

That's what Daniel Jones is. He is in the tier with transitory starters like Tyrod Taylor and backups like Trubisky.

He is nowhere near the tier of pretty good starters which includes Carr and Cousins. Nowhere near it.


This season in head-to-head competition, Danile Jones beat Derek Carr and also out-performed him.



I think you know this is a lame argument. Superior QBs lose games to inferior QBs all the time. Earlier this season, Tom Brady lost a game to Taysom Hill. Do we really think that makes Taysom Hill better than Tom Brady? It's a fatuous, dishonest point you are making and wastes time.

If this is what you need to pump up Daniel Jones, then even you don't believe what you are saying.

Either you have not read all my remarks on this thread or perhaps you misunderstood them. Whatever. Below is a paste of my responses to an earlier post. This pretty much summarizes my view of Daniel Jones.





Your Words:
Let's just cut through all the BS - what's your central thesis here as it relates to Daniel Jones? Do you believe that he's going to be among the best 5-10 QBs in the NFL at any point in his career?

My Response:
If I had to venture a guess, he will not be a Top 5 QB because that is reserved for Superstars like Rogers, Brady, et. al. and Daniel Jones is simply NOT in that class. Could he be in Top 10? Dunno. But what I do know is that no one knows for certain what his top-end is? If I had to venture a guess -- maybe upper-middle of the pack?

Your Words:
Because unless you believe that, there's no reason to engage in any discussion of his future with the Giants. You need an upper echelon QB in the NFL to be consistently competitive. If you don't have one, you need to find one.

My Response:
I would love an upper echelon QB as much as anyone, but I would love one in the context of a team that is half-way competent. I've seen Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers at their very peak, and I've also seen them when former Giants defenses compressed their pass pockets and put some serious hits on them. They didn't look like super-heroes then. In any event, there are very few super-hero QBs in the NFL, and finding them is no mean feat, so in the meantime I don't see the tragedy of Daniel Jones playing for the Giants in 2022.

Your Words:
Daniel Jones is near the bottom of NFL QBs. There's no comparison between him and the top tier at that position. None.

My Response:
I disagree. He is not near the bottom. Obviously, he does not compare well to guys like Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers... but who does? Your valuation of Daniel Jones has been clouded by the reality that he has played behind a pathetic O-line with WRs and TEs who are indeed near the bottom of the NFL.
RE: RE: RE: Nobody settles on a bottom 10 QB  
bw in dc : 1/12/2022 5:28 pm : link
In comment 15549473 rsjem1979 said:
Quote:
In comment 15549444 M.S. said:


Quote:




This season in head-to-head competition, Danile Jones beat Derek Carr and also out-performed him.



So you'd rather have Daniel Jones at QB than Derek Carr?


It's like BBIers don't read box scores, right? Jones throw or a buck ten in the game. 5.5 YPA. Just a scintillating performance by our "franchise QB".

BTW, Jones had a better QBR in the Chiefs game against Mahomes. Anyone want to make that swap?
RE: RE: RE: RE: Nobody settles on a bottom 10 QB  
Producer : 1/12/2022 5:44 pm : link
In comment 15549817 M.S. said:
Quote:
In comment 15549763 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15549444 M.S. said:


Quote:


In comment 15549424 Producer said:


Quote:


Bottom 10 QBs are a collection of failed journeymen, stopgaps and a few rookies.

the rookies will make a tier bump in the next year or two, If they don't they become stopgaps.

That's what Daniel Jones is. He is in the tier with transitory starters like Tyrod Taylor and backups like Trubisky.

He is nowhere near the tier of pretty good starters which includes Carr and Cousins. Nowhere near it.


This season in head-to-head competition, Danile Jones beat Derek Carr and also out-performed him.



I think you know this is a lame argument. Superior QBs lose games to inferior QBs all the time. Earlier this season, Tom Brady lost a game to Taysom Hill. Do we really think that makes Taysom Hill better than Tom Brady? It's a fatuous, dishonest point you are making and wastes time.

If this is what you need to pump up Daniel Jones, then even you don't believe what you are saying.


Either you have not read all my remarks on this thread or perhaps you misunderstood them. Whatever. Below is a paste of my responses to an earlier post. This pretty much summarizes my view of Daniel Jones.





Your Words:
Let's just cut through all the BS - what's your central thesis here as it relates to Daniel Jones? Do you believe that he's going to be among the best 5-10 QBs in the NFL at any point in his career?

My Response:
If I had to venture a guess, he will not be a Top 5 QB because that is reserved for Superstars like Rogers, Brady, et. al. and Daniel Jones is simply NOT in that class. Could he be in Top 10? Dunno. But what I do know is that no one knows for certain what his top-end is? If I had to venture a guess -- maybe upper-middle of the pack?

Your Words:
Because unless you believe that, there's no reason to engage in any discussion of his future with the Giants. You need an upper echelon QB in the NFL to be consistently competitive. If you don't have one, you need to find one.

My Response:
I would love an upper echelon QB as much as anyone, but I would love one in the context of a team that is half-way competent. I've seen Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers at their very peak, and I've also seen them when former Giants defenses compressed their pass pockets and put some serious hits on them. They didn't look like super-heroes then. In any event, there are very few super-hero QBs in the NFL, and finding them is no mean feat, so in the meantime I don't see the tragedy of Daniel Jones playing for the Giants in 2022.

Your Words:
Daniel Jones is near the bottom of NFL QBs. There's no comparison between him and the top tier at that position. None.

My Response:
I disagree. He is not near the bottom. Obviously, he does not compare well to guys like Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers... but who does? Your valuation of Daniel Jones has been clouded by the reality that he has played behind a pathetic O-line with WRs and TEs who are indeed near the bottom of the NFL.


You may not agree that he is bottom 10, but the numbers say he is. And it is a consistent set of numbers across his entire career.

This is a common tactic here. Say Jones isn't as good as brady or Rodgers but then say he belongs in the next tier.

He does not. He is nowhere close to the top12.

Please do us all a favor and go to Pro Football reference 2021 passing stats and sort each column, one at a time. Notice in almost every category Jones is btween 22 and 27.

Jones is not only, not in the Brady/rodgers convo.

he is not in the Herbert convo
He is not in the Burrow convo
he is not in the Wilson convo
he is not in the Cousins convo
He is not in the Carr convo
see I'm going far down the list now...
He is not even in the Garropolo convo
Tua has now passed Jones.

Soon Lawrence will pass Jones.

You might want to tie the neck of the Giants franchise to this anvil for another 5 years. It has to stop. He is our biggest problem.

Daniel Jones is a coach killer. And I am quite certain Joe Judge regrets ever agreeing that Jones should be the QB of this team.
He might  
PaulN : 1/12/2022 5:48 pm : link
Be tge guy who's son said Daniel Jones is the best QB in the NFL because of how he performed on this team vs the other great names that played for the Giants this season. He is on a full rant to educate us all on how great Jones is. So best listen, he is educating.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Nobody settles on a bottom 10 QB  
M.S. : 1/12/2022 6:20 pm : link
In comment 15549881 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15549817 M.S. said:


Quote:


In comment 15549763 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15549444 M.S. said:


Quote:


In comment 15549424 Producer said:


Quote:


Bottom 10 QBs are a collection of failed journeymen, stopgaps and a few rookies.

the rookies will make a tier bump in the next year or two, If they don't they become stopgaps.

That's what Daniel Jones is. He is in the tier with transitory starters like Tyrod Taylor and backups like Trubisky.

He is nowhere near the tier of pretty good starters which includes Carr and Cousins. Nowhere near it.


This season in head-to-head competition, Danile Jones beat Derek Carr and also out-performed him.



I think you know this is a lame argument. Superior QBs lose games to inferior QBs all the time. Earlier this season, Tom Brady lost a game to Taysom Hill. Do we really think that makes Taysom Hill better than Tom Brady? It's a fatuous, dishonest point you are making and wastes time.

If this is what you need to pump up Daniel Jones, then even you don't believe what you are saying.


Either you have not read all my remarks on this thread or perhaps you misunderstood them. Whatever. Below is a paste of my responses to an earlier post. This pretty much summarizes my view of Daniel Jones.





Your Words:
Let's just cut through all the BS - what's your central thesis here as it relates to Daniel Jones? Do you believe that he's going to be among the best 5-10 QBs in the NFL at any point in his career?

My Response:
If I had to venture a guess, he will not be a Top 5 QB because that is reserved for Superstars like Rogers, Brady, et. al. and Daniel Jones is simply NOT in that class. Could he be in Top 10? Dunno. But what I do know is that no one knows for certain what his top-end is? If I had to venture a guess -- maybe upper-middle of the pack?

Your Words:
Because unless you believe that, there's no reason to engage in any discussion of his future with the Giants. You need an upper echelon QB in the NFL to be consistently competitive. If you don't have one, you need to find one.

My Response:
I would love an upper echelon QB as much as anyone, but I would love one in the context of a team that is half-way competent. I've seen Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers at their very peak, and I've also seen them when former Giants defenses compressed their pass pockets and put some serious hits on them. They didn't look like super-heroes then. In any event, there are very few super-hero QBs in the NFL, and finding them is no mean feat, so in the meantime I don't see the tragedy of Daniel Jones playing for the Giants in 2022.

Your Words:
Daniel Jones is near the bottom of NFL QBs. There's no comparison between him and the top tier at that position. None.

My Response:
I disagree. He is not near the bottom. Obviously, he does not compare well to guys like Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers... but who does? Your valuation of Daniel Jones has been clouded by the reality that he has played behind a pathetic O-line with WRs and TEs who are indeed near the bottom of the NFL.



You may not agree that he is bottom 10, but the numbers say he is. And it is a consistent set of numbers across his entire career.

This is a common tactic here. Say Jones isn't as good as brady or Rodgers but then say he belongs in the next tier.

He does not. He is nowhere close to the top12.

Please do us all a favor and go to Pro Football reference 2021 passing stats and sort each column, one at a time. Notice in almost every category Jones is btween 22 and 27.

Jones is not only, not in the Brady/rodgers convo.

he is not in the Herbert convo
He is not in the Burrow convo
he is not in the Wilson convo
he is not in the Cousins convo
He is not in the Carr convo
see I'm going far down the list now...
He is not even in the Garropolo convo
Tua has now passed Jones.

Soon Lawrence will pass Jones.

You might want to tie the neck of the Giants franchise to this anvil for another 5 years. It has to stop. He is our biggest problem.

Daniel Jones is a coach killer. And I am quite certain Joe Judge regrets ever agreeing that Jones should be the QB of this team.

I understand how you feel about Daniel Jones, which can be summarized as follows:

(1) He sucks;
(2) Even with a good offensive line and a healthy set of fine receivers, he still would suck.

That is why I disagree with your opinion about Daniel Jones.
except  
Producer : 1/12/2022 7:48 pm : link
my arguments are rooted in facts and data.

And your arguments are rooted in fantasy, speculation, and wishful thinking,

It's wishful thinking that got us into this mess.
RE: except  
Thunderstruck27 : 1/12/2022 11:26 pm : link
In comment 15550173 Producer said:
Quote:
my arguments are rooted in facts and data.

And your arguments are rooted in fantasy, speculation, and wishful thinking,

It's wishful thinking that got us into this mess.


Fact:. We have the bottom tier talent on the OLine and receiver corps. Compound that with terrible coaching and you get an offensive year like this. Every game we won this year was because of Jones
Who cares?  
Debaser : 1/13/2022 9:46 am : link
So Jones pumpers why does Jones get the benefit of the doubt?

The Panthers oline is dreadful -- would you be willing to give Darnold the benefit of the doubt? Of course not. You say he sucks, and glad the Giants didn't draft him and , laugh at Rhule at Carolina for paying him. And at least you can say Darnold was a top prospect coming out.

So why doesn't that apply to jones as well? Especially considering new coach and GM will now have to inherit him like Judge did. 2 coaches ago!

It is rebuild time ; new GM time ; new coach time and yes new QB time. Especially considering that all the decent players on this team are free agents anyway so jones is the only thing to wheel and deal on roster moves.

RE: Who cares?  
M.S. : 1/13/2022 10:21 am : link
In comment 15550812 Debaser said:
Quote:
So Jones pumpers why does Jones get the benefit of the doubt?

The Panthers oline is dreadful -- would you be willing to give Darnold the benefit of the doubt? Of course not. You say he sucks, and glad the Giants didn't draft him and , laugh at Rhule at Carolina for paying him. And at least you can say Darnold was a top prospect coming out.

So why doesn't that apply to jones as well? Especially considering new coach and GM will now have to inherit him like Judge did. 2 coaches ago!

It is rebuild time ; new GM time ; new coach time and yes new QB time. Especially considering that all the decent players on this team are free agents anyway so jones is the only thing to wheel and deal on roster moves.

Your opening statement is misguided, and like a few others on this thread you can only think of Daniel Jones in bi-modal terms -- either he sucks or he doesn't suck. You simply will not allow for any middle-ground or nuanced view of Daniel Jones.

In a similar vein, just because a poster is not in your "suck camp" -- that doesn't mean he must be a "Jones pumper." That's a very limited view of things and simply not how it works.

In any event, I see you mentioned that it's rebuild time with a new GM and a new HC, thus a new QB. In the link below you will see I started a thread this morning that speculated this point exactly, and I'm supposedly one of your "Daniel Jones "pumpers."

Your Biggest NYG Draft Surprise Round One - ( New Window )
RE: RE: Who cares?  
Debaser : 1/13/2022 10:32 am : link
In comment 15550897 M.S. said:
Quote:
In comment 15550812 Debaser said:


Quote:


So Jones pumpers why does Jones get the benefit of the doubt?

The Panthers oline is dreadful -- would you be willing to give Darnold the benefit of the doubt? Of course not. You say he sucks, and glad the Giants didn't draft him and , laugh at Rhule at Carolina for paying him. And at least you can say Darnold was a top prospect coming out.

So why doesn't that apply to jones as well? Especially considering new coach and GM will now have to inherit him like Judge did. 2 coaches ago!

It is rebuild time ; new GM time ; new coach time and yes new QB time. Especially considering that all the decent players on this team are free agents anyway so jones is the only thing to wheel and deal on roster moves.



Your opening statement is misguided, and like a few others on this thread you can only think of Daniel Jones in bi-modal terms -- either he sucks or he doesn't suck. You simply will not allow for any middle-ground or nuanced view of Daniel Jones.

In a similar vein, just because a poster is not in your "suck camp" -- that doesn't mean he must be a "Jones pumper." That's a very limited view of things and simply not how it works.

In any event, I see you mentioned that it's rebuild time with a new GM and a new HC, thus a new QB. In the link below you will see I started a thread this morning that speculated this point exactly, and I'm supposedly one of your "Daniel Jones "pumpers." Your Biggest NYG Draft Surprise Round One - ( New Window )


So we passed on herbert because we are committed to Jones and we are going to draft another QB in the top 10 but play Jones more?

And I am somehow obtuse because I am making Jones pumpers out to be irrational but, it is really me who irrational?

THere are backups in this league better than Jones. Glennon might not be one of them. But others are -- Minshew ; Kyle Allen even; A Dalton; Nick Foles just to name 4. But instead of acknowledging this you make a comparison to a Glennon or Fromm a fourth stringer they started because everyone else . So I am mis-characterizing that as pumping?

Why don't you answer the question-- why doesn't Darnold get this? Every argument oline etc can be made about Darnold.
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