behind essentially the same offensive line?
QB Rating
Daniel Jones 84.8
Glennon/Fromm ~46.1
Jones Advantage +84%
Pass Completion Percentage
Daniel Jones 64.3%
Glennon/Fromm 51.5%
Jones Advantage +25%
Passing Yards per Attempt
Daniel Jones 6.7
Glennon/Fromm 4.4
Jones Advantage +53%
TDs per 100 Passing Attempts
Daniel Jones 2.8
Glennon/Fromm 2.2
Jones Advantage +26%
Fumbles per 100 Passing Attempts
Daniel Jones 1.4
Glennon/Fromm 3.1
Jones Advantage +55%
Fumbles Lost per 100 Passing Attempts
Daniel Jones .6
Glennon/Fromm 1.8
Jones Advantage +69%
Sacks per 100 Passing Attempts
Daniel Jones 6.1
Glennon/Fromm 6.6
Jones Advantage +8%
INTs per 100 Passing Attempts
Daniel Jones 1.9
Glennon/Fromm 5.7
Jones Advantage +66%
Glennon is a bottom-tier QB who I wouldn't be surprised to see out of football now, and Fromm is a practice squad guy who clearly is not an NFL QB. Being better than them isn't the ringing endorsement you seem to think it is.
Jones is much better than Glennon and Fromm. You could say that about 40 QBs in the NFL.
The things that he is not good at are hard to coach. He runs fast but he is not athletic. He has no fluidity in his movement. He doesn't feel the pass rush well. Basically he does not have "it". It's hard to explain but when you watch other QBs play, things are more fluid. Probably good enough to have a winning record On a good team but that's it IMO.
Never have seen such inept backups
Which is the same signal as the one for the "Jones or Bust" crowd.
But, it may not fit the narrative that you're hoping to get across.
I like DJ, but I believe that his future in NY is, at best, as a place holder for a 2023 rookie or FA. (assuming that he's healthy)
Too funny!
Dada dada dada dada
Dada dada dada dada
BATMAN!
Have you lost your fucking mind?
Jones was 5.62
Herbert was 6.95
Burrow was 7.51, 5.72 his rookie year
Fields was 4.24
Haskins was 4.25 and 4.15 in his WFT days
Glennon 2.00 and Fromm .94
But, it may not fit the narrative that you're hoping to get across.
I like DJ, but I believe that his future in NY is, at best, as a place holder for a 2023 rookie or FA. (assuming that he's healthy)
I agree with you 100%. (But my narrative was not to beat the drum for Daniel Jones long term.) I think you hit the nail on the head about him as a placeholder in 2023. And if he somehow, someway really lights it up and impresses the new regime, then maybe there's a future for him here. But I suspect new blood will demand a new QB.
The game is too fast for No TD Jones. If a competent NFL vet QB is brought in DJ will sit .
Jones was 5.62
Herbert was 6.95
Burrow was 7.51, 5.72 his rookie year
Fields was 4.24
Haskins was 4.25 and 4.15 in his WFT days
Glennon 2.00 and Fromm .94
BTW, does the Burrow number have the Ja'Marr Chase - Tee Higgins Adjustment Factor? (:-)
And have all the QBs been adjusted by the Skura-Price- Hernandez-Solder Factor? (:-)
You, ummm, really nailed it here.
exactly. he is still an asset and you dont just discard it. If new regime wants to blow him out and trade him, fine. But they're not going to just cut the guy.
TDs per 100 Passing Attempts
Daniel Jones 2.8
Glennon/Fromm 2.2
Jones Advantage +26%
These stats generally confirm my impression that with Jones, the Giants had some success moving the ball, but could not score touchdowns. With the other two, the Giants could not move the ball and obviously could not score touchdowns. Glennon and Fromm are not NFL players. Jones is probably a solid backup.
You, ummm, really nailed it here.
Actually, Mike Glennon was considered a legit back-up QB**; that is, until he came to the Giants and played behind the league's most pathetic offensive line.
**And he's got the stats to prove it.
TDs per 100 Passing Attempts
Daniel Jones 2.8
Glennon/Fromm 2.2
Jones Advantage +26%
These stats generally confirm my impression that with Jones, the Giants had some success moving the ball, but could not score touchdowns. With the other two, the Giants could not move the ball and obviously could not score touchdowns. Glennon and Fromm are not NFL players. Jones is probably a solid backup.
Your point is well taken. I think part (not all) of the TD pass problem was that we had zero threat of the run game in the red zone, and a lot of our WRs were out or hampered with injuries. That said, I'm not gonna defend Daniel Jones' paltry TD pass total. That's for sure.
TDs per 100 Passing Attempts
Daniel Jones 2.8
Glennon/Fromm 2.2
Jones Advantage +26%
These stats generally confirm my impression that with Jones, the Giants had some success moving the ball, but could not score touchdowns. With the other two, the Giants could not move the ball and obviously could not score touchdowns. Glennon and Fromm are not NFL players. Jones is probably a solid backup.
That's where i'm at.
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Adjusted net yards per attempt is a better metric than YPA or completion percentage.
Jones was 5.62
Herbert was 6.95
Burrow was 7.51, 5.72 his rookie year
Fields was 4.24
Haskins was 4.25 and 4.15 in his WFT days
Glennon 2.00 and Fromm .94
BTW, does the Burrow number have the Ja'Marr Chase - Tee Higgins Adjustment Factor? (:-)
And have all the QBs been adjusted by the Skura-Price- Hernandez-Solder Factor? (:-)
Just for the record, I think Jones can go elsewhere and succeed. He was also dealt a bad hand coming into the league from a small school and playing with bad receivers, TEs and a OL with four backups.
This stat shows Jones may or may not be the answer. But he also isn't nearly as bad as others have been.
Actually, Mike Glennon was considered a legit back-up QB**; that is, until he came to the Giants and played behind the league's most pathetic offensive line.
**And he's got the stats to prove it.
Let's just cut through all the BS - what's your central thesis here as it relates to Daniel Jones? Do you believe that he's going to be among the best 5-10 QBs in the NFL at any point in his career?
Because unless you believe that, there's no reason to engage in any discussion of his future with the Giants. You need an upper echelon QB in the NFL to be consistently competitive. If you don't have one, you need to find one.
Daniel Jones is near the bottom of NFL QBs. There's no comparison between him and the top tier at that position. None.
We had a brilliant BBIer tell us yesterday that Jones had a lower INT% than Herbert and Allen.
Suggesting, of course, that Jones is in their category.
I think it's an early candidate for post of the year.
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Adjusted net yards per attempt is a better metric than YPA or completion percentage.
Jones was 5.62
Herbert was 6.95
Burrow was 7.51, 5.72 his rookie year
Fields was 4.24
Haskins was 4.25 and 4.15 in his WFT days
Glennon 2.00 and Fromm .94
BTW, does the Burrow number have the Ja'Marr Chase - Tee Higgins Adjustment Factor? (:-)
And have all the QBs been adjusted by the Skura-Price- Hernandez-Solder Factor? (:-)
Or "primary targets being being Pettis, Colin JOhnson, and Board" factor.
I don't think anyone on this Board has asserted that they know for certain Jones is the QB of the future. Only that it is impossible to tell when primary offensive player when he played were: Skura, Price, Hernandez, Solder, Johnson, Pettis, and Board, who are likely bottom 5 at their respective positions in the league. Along with a raft of players at the 50th percentile at best, such as Engram, Rudolph, and Booker. In other words, aside from Thomas, name one other player on offense would would start for any other team in the league.
Jones is better than a career backup, that’s fine to say. It doesn’t mean he has to be the answer going forward or that he’ll be great.
Things don’t need to be black or white.
As others have noted, Glennon was at least a legit backup until he got to NY (I believe at one point an NFL team gave him a sizable contract to start for them)... so it should be fairly obvious that trying to make a final determination about any Giant QB the past year or so is silly.
anyway, I don't care if we cut him, trade him or have him compete with another QB next year... I have no emotional investment at this point... but the blinders on some people here is staggering.
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Actually, Mike Glennon was considered a legit back-up QB**; that is, until he came to the Giants and played behind the league's most pathetic offensive line.
**And he's got the stats to prove it.
Let's just cut through all the BS - what's your central thesis here as it relates to Daniel Jones? Do you believe that he's going to be among the best 5-10 QBs in the NFL at any point in his career?
Because unless you believe that, there's no reason to engage in any discussion of his future with the Giants. You need an upper echelon QB in the NFL to be consistently competitive. If you don't have one, you need to find one.
Daniel Jones is near the bottom of NFL QBs. There's no comparison between him and the top tier at that position. None.
Your Words:
Let's just cut through all the BS - what's your central thesis here as it relates to Daniel Jones? Do you believe that he's going to be among the best 5-10 QBs in the NFL at any point in his career?
My Response:
If I had to venture a guess, he will not be a Top 5 QB because that is reserved for Superstars like Rogers, Brady, et. al. and Daniel Jones is simply NOT in that class. Could he be in Top 10? Dunno. But what I do know is that no one knows for certain what his top-end is? If I had to venture a guess -- maybe upper-middle of the pack?
Your Words:
Because unless you believe that, there's no reason to engage in any discussion of his future with the Giants. You need an upper echelon QB in the NFL to be consistently competitive. If you don't have one, you need to find one.
My Response:
I would love an upper echelon QB as much as anyone, but I would love one in the context of a team that is half-way competent. I've seen Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers at their very peak, and I've also seen them when former Giants defenses compressed their pass pockets and put some serious hits on them. They didn't look like super-heroes then. In any event, there are very few super-hero QBs in the NFL, and finding them is no mean feat, so in the meantime I don't see the tragedy of Daniel Jones playing for the Giants in 2022.
Your Words:
Daniel Jones is near the bottom of NFL QBs. There's no comparison between him and the top tier at that position. None.
My Response:
I disagree. He is not near the bottom. Obviously, he does not compare well to guys like Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers... but who does? Your valuation of Daniel Jones has been clouded by the reality that he has played behind a pathetic O-line with WRs and TEs who are indeed near the bottom of the NFL.
I disagree. He is not near the bottom. Obviously, he does not compare well to guys like Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers... but who does? Your valuation of Daniel Jones has been clouded by the reality that he has played behind a pathetic O-line with WRs and TEs who are indeed near the bottom of the NFL.
My valuation of Daniel Jones is based on the fact that he's never been great in his entire life as a QB. He's not instinctive. He's got an average arm and a long delivery. He's not elusive as a runner.
Honestly, what are his PLUS attributes? And if his ceiling (as you suggest) is "upper middle" what are we even talking about? Find someone better.
The die is cast. We know what he is, and that is a middling NFL backup.
I dont think we need him to be a top 5 QB, yes that would be nice but I think he could be between 10-15 which is pretty good and puts him in the playoff group most days.
Im all for brining in an upgrade but I dont see that answer out there. Is a Garapolo an upgrade? Hes going to cost a lot. I see him probably on the similar level to Jones.
Jones was not the main problem with this O. It was the lack of consistent talent around him and a dreadful OL. Our playcalling was terrible too. It was just a complete mess.
I think season 1 of the new regime needs to be brining ina supporting cast with the draft capital that we have. We should be able to get 2 future studs and 2 additional starters from this draft. This new regime has the chance to set this franchise up with a team of young talent. We basically got nothing out of this past draft except for Ojulari. Hopefuly Toney comes around and we have a few other pieces take a leap and we are back in business. Dont rush the QB situation if its not there.
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I disagree. He is not near the bottom. Obviously, he does not compare well to guys like Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers... but who does? Your valuation of Daniel Jones has been clouded by the reality that he has played behind a pathetic O-line with WRs and TEs who are indeed near the bottom of the NFL.
My valuation of Daniel Jones is based on the fact that he's never been great in his entire life as a QB. He's not instinctive. He's got an average arm and a long delivery. He's not elusive as a runner.
Honestly, what are his PLUS attributes? And if his ceiling (as you suggest) is "upper middle" what are we even talking about? Find someone better.
True, he has never been "great," but he had a pretty good rookie season; indeed, some of his rookie stats were quite strong.
As for him not being "instinctive," I tend to agree... he seems to get mechanical, and his movement skills are not what I would call "fluid."
He does have a long delivery, but I disagree about his arm strength. He has plenty of arm, although I think his arm strength is negated somewhat on the run because maybe he is somewhat stiff in his movements.
My fundamental disagreement is that you have a bi-modal view of Daniel Jones, which is in full evidence with this statement of yours:
"And if his ceiling (as you suggest) is "upper middle" what are we even talking about?"
It's almost as though you are saying, "If he isn't great, I don't want him!" But that's not realistic. In any given season, teams win all the time without having a Top 5 or Top 10 QB. IMO, Daniel Jones had plenty of talent to be a winning QB, but not with a franchise that has no O-Line nor any real viable threat at TE and WR.
But this analysis says Daniel Jones is better than the worst QBs to start for the Giants since the forward pass. Whoop de doo. I'm sorry you wasted your time on this.
Everyone should be on board with whatever the new GM decides to do about the QBs. The last admin got the most important part of the roster as wrong as you can get it.
I thought that’s what this was going to be. Sigh
That is so lame to prove some shitty little point about Jones that you have to pick on Glennon; a guy who started 3 games ; had top play with a concussion in the first one and broke his wrist and needs surgery in the 3rd one when this team basically gave up and got the coach fired.
So lame. Jones sucks. We've seen Glennon play better. Where did you see Jones play better except in the minds eye of some alternate universe where rookie QBs shed their warts of 39 turnovers and only 3 wins but still keep up the meaningless stats.
Precisely.
Ahhh... I don't think anyone on this thread is suggesting THAT. But there is a decent chance Daniel Jones is the New York Giants starter for the opening game of the 2022 Season. Perhaps what we should be most concerned about: He starts behind a line comprised of Skura-Price-Hernandez-Solder.
What should the word be, then?
I thought it was OK.
The die is cast. We know what he is, and that is a middling NFL backup.
The only situation where I would even consider keeping Jones is if we were able to pry Payton away from New Orleans. If he came in and believed he saw enough in Jones to make it work, you'd have to sign. He's an incredible teacher and developer on that offensive side of the ball. If Jones couldn't work for him than it would clearly be the end of the road.
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and made 5 NFL rosters. Only when he got thoroughly outplayed by Jones did this notion that he's not an NFL player arise.
Precisely.
He was also thought enough of that he signed a 45 million dollar contract with the Bears
Quote:
let's see how our Starting QB fared against two guys who shouldn't be in the league period.
You, ummm, really nailed it here.
Actually, Mike Glennon was considered a legit back-up QB**; that is, until he came to the Giants and played behind the league's most pathetic offensive line.
**And he's got the stats to prove it.
This is actually a true story.
Again, all points to coaching/concepts/scheme/play calling.
Glennon is probably shell shocked lol
The only way Jones sees much more time as a starter in this league is if we rehire Gettleman as GM.
The only way Jones sees much more time as a starter in this league is if we rehire Gettleman as GM.
Aside from Thomas, name anther player on the Giants who would played significant minutes over the last 2 years, who would start for any other NFL team.
He was also thought enough of that he signed a 45 million dollar contract with the Bears
He got benched after 4 games for throwing 3 ints within the first half of a game and he did it twice. Glennon is a back up in the NFL. If not for Garrett being directed by Mara to give Jones the kids gloves treatment -- he would also be benched after fumbling too much.
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Only Haskins, Darnold, and Rosen turned out worse.
The only way Jones sees much more time as a starter in this league is if we rehire Gettleman as GM.
Aside from Thomas, name anther player on the Giants who would played significant minutes over the last 2 years, who would start for any other NFL team.
I know Jones wouldn't, because he sucks. He's only here because of Cutcliffe. Had he gone to Princeton you and I never would have heard of him. That's why he's here...it was an immense turn of good fortune for him.
Quote:
Only Haskins, Darnold, and Rosen turned out worse.
The only way Jones sees much more time as a starter in this league is if we rehire Gettleman as GM.
Aside from Thomas, name anther player on the Giants who would played significant minutes over the last 2 years, who would start for any other NFL team.
Name another team Jones would start for besides the Giants?
Quote:
In comment 15548936 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Only Haskins, Darnold, and Rosen turned out worse.
The only way Jones sees much more time as a starter in this league is if we rehire Gettleman as GM.
Aside from Thomas, name anther player on the Giants who would played significant minutes over the last 2 years, who would start for any other NFL team.
I know Jones wouldn't, because he sucks. He's only here because of Cutcliffe. Had he gone to Princeton you and I never would have heard of him. That's why he's here...it was an immense turn of good fortune for him.
Way to avoid the question. Well done! I'll go even further, there are probably 4-6 guys who played significant minutes on offense the last 2 years who wouldn't even be on an NFL roster, let alone start for another team.
Quote:
In comment 15548766 Ron Johnson said:
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and made 5 NFL rosters. Only when he got thoroughly outplayed by Jones did this notion that he's not an NFL player arise.
Precisely.
He was also thought enough of that he signed a 45 million dollar contract with the Bears
And if anyone knows QBs, it's a franchise that hasn't had a good one in 35 years and in a draft featuring both Patrick Mahomes and Deshaun Watson, traded up to draft Mitch Trubisky.
I don't think there is anything really wrong with Jones neck at all. I think after the Eagles game when they could not score , even after firing Garrett, they decided Jones and Judge would be back next year since it was not the line and the injuries were the problem. And they didn't want to risk Jones getting hurt in garbage time and behind that crap oline. If Judge didn't embarrass himself saying stupid stuff and didn't call those 2 stupid sneaks -- and if every GM I am sure theu interviewed were like "NO WAY , 10 wins I have to work with that!"
LMAO!!!
Just come to grips with this.
He is not a starting QB in the NFL. We can never win with a QB with his deficits. Never.
Don't make it an emotional issue, like mommy and daddy are getting a divorce. Don't make it a point of principle, as though you can't admit you got it wrong. All the evidence says he can't play.
We got rid of the GM.
We got rid of the HC.
Time to get rid of the QB. He shares equally in the dysfunction.
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In comment 15548972 Now Mike in MD said:
Quote:
In comment 15548936 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Only Haskins, Darnold, and Rosen turned out worse.
The only way Jones sees much more time as a starter in this league is if we rehire Gettleman as GM.
Aside from Thomas, name anther player on the Giants who would played significant minutes over the last 2 years, who would start for any other NFL team.
I know Jones wouldn't, because he sucks. He's only here because of Cutcliffe. Had he gone to Princeton you and I never would have heard of him. That's why he's here...it was an immense turn of good fortune for him.
Way to avoid the question. Well done! I'll go even further, there are probably 4-6 guys who played significant minutes on offense the last 2 years who wouldn't even be on an NFL roster, let alone start for another team.
It's a stupid question. If Gettleman fucked up the rest of the roster why did he get Jones right?
Besides, if you knew anything about QB play you can see that Jones isn't good. The problems at Duke are still there, and they aren't the type to get better.
Don't get used to watching him play. That tedium is going away.
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In comment 15548989 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15548972 Now Mike in MD said:
Quote:
In comment 15548936 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Only Haskins, Darnold, and Rosen turned out worse.
The only way Jones sees much more time as a starter in this league is if we rehire Gettleman as GM.
Aside from Thomas, name anther player on the Giants who would played significant minutes over the last 2 years, who would start for any other NFL team.
I know Jones wouldn't, because he sucks. He's only here because of Cutcliffe. Had he gone to Princeton you and I never would have heard of him. That's why he's here...it was an immense turn of good fortune for him.
Way to avoid the question. Well done! I'll go even further, there are probably 4-6 guys who played significant minutes on offense the last 2 years who wouldn't even be on an NFL roster, let alone start for another team.
It's a stupid question. If Gettleman fucked up the rest of the roster why did he get Jones right?
Besides, if you knew anything about QB play you can see that Jones isn't good. The problems at Duke are still there, and they aren't the type to get better.
Don't get used to watching him play. That tedium is going away.
So you're saying that because DG made a lot of bad decisions, then it's impossible that he got Jones right? By that logic, Thomas is terrible and McKinney are terrible. For someone chiding my question as stupid, you undertake a stupid analysis. I would submit that claiming to know anything definitively about a QB with an abysmal offensive roster is, as you say, stupid. But I forgot you're always the smartest guy in the room. Must be nice.
And btw, you still haven't answered the question.
Just come to grips with this.
He is not a starting QB in the NFL. We can never win with a QB with his deficits. Never.
Don't make it an emotional issue, like mommy and daddy are getting a divorce. Don't make it a point of principle, as though you can't admit you got it wrong. All the evidence says he can't play.
We got rid of the GM.
We got rid of the HC.
Time to get rid of the QB. He shares equally in the dysfunction.
He may be back next year, he's under contract. That could be as starter, or backup.
He could be traded.
Let's see what the next HC envisions for the team in 2022.
A lot to still unfold.
Sadly, we can't put them behind a line that had 4 guys who would not be on the field for any other team in the NFL in order to find out.
Well, if you believe Glennon and Fromm are "bum QBs off the street," then the answer is in my thread starter.
Just come to grips with this.
He is not a starting QB in the NFL. We can never win with a QB with his deficits. Never.
Don't make it an emotional issue, like mommy and daddy are getting a divorce. Don't make it a point of principle, as though you can't admit you got it wrong. All the evidence says he can't play.
We got rid of the GM.
We got rid of the HC.
Time to get rid of the QB. He shares equally in the dysfunction.
You make it sound like everything is an absolute.
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In comment 15548936 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Only Haskins, Darnold, and Rosen turned out worse.
The only way Jones sees much more time as a starter in this league is if we rehire Gettleman as GM.
Aside from Thomas, name anther player on the Giants who would played significant minutes over the last 2 years, who would start for any other NFL team.
Name another team Jones would start for besides the Giants?
Washington
Denver
New Orleans
Carolina
I think the point is not that Jones was better, but that the backups were so historically bad. ALso, Glennon while never a top 18 QB, has been serviceable most of his career, and he looked completely inept with the parade of horribles on the offense
Actually, the idea was to indeed compare Daniel Jones with Glennon and Fromm because all three experienced the same unique circumstances... playing behind a putrid O-line and throwing the ball to WRs who were either injured and/or replaced by several practice squad players. It's a clean comparison.
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In comment 15548541 M.S. said:
Quote:
Actually, Mike Glennon was considered a legit back-up QB**; that is, until he came to the Giants and played behind the league's most pathetic offensive line.
**And he's got the stats to prove it.
Let's just cut through all the BS - what's your central thesis here as it relates to Daniel Jones? Do you believe that he's going to be among the best 5-10 QBs in the NFL at any point in his career?
Because unless you believe that, there's no reason to engage in any discussion of his future with the Giants. You need an upper echelon QB in the NFL to be consistently competitive. If you don't have one, you need to find one.
Daniel Jones is near the bottom of NFL QBs. There's no comparison between him and the top tier at that position. None.
Your Words:
Let's just cut through all the BS - what's your central thesis here as it relates to Daniel Jones? Do you believe that he's going to be among the best 5-10 QBs in the NFL at any point in his career?
My Response:
If I had to venture a guess, he will not be a Top 5 QB because that is reserved for Superstars like Rogers, Brady, et. al. and Daniel Jones is simply NOT in that class. Could he be in Top 10? Dunno. But what I do know is that no one knows for certain what his top-end is? If I had to venture a guess -- maybe upper-middle of the pack?
Your Words:
Because unless you believe that, there's no reason to engage in any discussion of his future with the Giants. You need an upper echelon QB in the NFL to be consistently competitive. If you don't have one, you need to find one.
My Response:
I would love an upper echelon QB as much as anyone, but I would love one in the context of a team that is half-way competent. I've seen Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers at their very peak, and I've also seen them when former Giants defenses compressed their pass pockets and put some serious hits on them. They didn't look like super-heroes then. In any event, there are very few super-hero QBs in the NFL, and finding them is no mean feat, so in the meantime I don't see the tragedy of Daniel Jones playing for the Giants in 2022.
Your Words:
Daniel Jones is near the bottom of NFL QBs. There's no comparison between him and the top tier at that position. None.
My Response:
I disagree. He is not near the bottom. Obviously, he does not compare well to guys like Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers... but who does? Your valuation of Daniel Jones has been clouded by the reality that he has played behind a pathetic O-line with WRs and TEs who are indeed near the bottom of the NFL.
Ok. Post stats that prove he's not near the bottom. I guarantee he's at the bottom of the league in passing yards per game and passing TDs the last 2 years? The team is at the bottom of the league in points scored?
Here's the problem with your argument...you use stats with really crappy QBs, as a comparison, to try to make DJ look not so crappy...but you dont want to use stats against the rest of the NFL that show he is, in fact, crappy. Compare his career numbers to Mitch Trubisky and then tell me he's an NFL starter.
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Every starting QB should be better than his backups.
Actually, the idea was to indeed compare Daniel Jones with Glennon and Fromm because all three experienced the same unique circumstances... playing behind a putrid O-line and throwing the ball to WRs who were either injured and/or replaced by several practice squad players. It's a clean comparison.
Your argument assumes the same situation with a team playing for the same thing.
Can you really compare weeks 1-3 to weeks 16-18? This team has grown noticeably worse especially the offense in recent weeks. They had nothing to play for and it showed.
can you really compare a Golladay that was yelling at Garrett to the one we saw last week ; who looked like there were 1000 other places he'd rather be?
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In comment 15548972 Now Mike in MD said:
Quote:
In comment 15548936 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Only Haskins, Darnold, and Rosen turned out worse.
The only way Jones sees much more time as a starter in this league is if we rehire Gettleman as GM.
Aside from Thomas, name anther player on the Giants who would played significant minutes over the last 2 years, who would start for any other NFL team.
Name another team Jones would start for besides the Giants?
Washington
Denver
New Orleans
Carolina
He's not starting for Washington, nor Denver, when Bridgewater is healthy.
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In comment 15548992 Debaser said:
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In comment 15548972 Now Mike in MD said:
Quote:
In comment 15548936 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Only Haskins, Darnold, and Rosen turned out worse.
The only way Jones sees much more time as a starter in this league is if we rehire Gettleman as GM.
Aside from Thomas, name anther player on the Giants who would played significant minutes over the last 2 years, who would start for any other NFL team.
Name another team Jones would start for besides the Giants?
Washington
Denver
New Orleans
Carolina
He's not starting for Washington, nor Denver, when Bridgewater is healthy.
None of those teams will want Jones as a starter. Seriously. maybe as a backup.
Washington has a Daniel jones - his name is Heinecke. If they upgrade it will be a tier change, not a lateral move.
Denver has Bridgewater who is demonstrably better than Jones. And they want better. They want Aaron Rodgers not Jones.
Carolina tried the retread project with Darnold and failed. Ruhle is not now going to stake his career on another lousy QB.
New Orleans has Winston and Hill. Both are pretty bad, but both are better than Daniel Jones.
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In comment 15548972 Now Mike in MD said:
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In comment 15548936 Go Terps said:
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Only Haskins, Darnold, and Rosen turned out worse.
The only way Jones sees much more time as a starter in this league is if we rehire Gettleman as GM.
Aside from Thomas, name anther player on the Giants who would played significant minutes over the last 2 years, who would start for any other NFL team.
Name another team Jones would start for besides the Giants?
Washington
Denver
New Orleans
Carolina
If you can only name four, then you think we need a new quarterback. And you'd be right.
the rookies will make a tier bump in the next year or two, If they don't they become stopgaps.
That's what Daniel Jones is. He is in the tier with transitory starters like Tyrod Taylor and backups like Trubisky.
He is nowhere near the tier of pretty good starters which includes Carr and Cousins. Nowhere near it.
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In comment 15549350 Mike from SI said:
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Every starting QB should be better than his backups.
Actually, the idea was to indeed compare Daniel Jones with Glennon and Fromm because all three experienced the same unique circumstances... playing behind a putrid O-line and throwing the ball to WRs who were either injured and/or replaced by several practice squad players. It's a clean comparison.
Your argument assumes the same situation with a team playing for the same thing.
Can you really compare weeks 1-3 to weeks 16-18? This team has grown noticeably worse especially the offense in recent weeks. They had nothing to play for and it showed.
can you really compare a Golladay that was yelling at Garrett to the one we saw last week ; who looked like there were 1000 other places he'd rather be?
The Daniel Jones comparison encompasses the 11 games he played in this season. Not games 1-3.
the rookies will make a tier bump in the next year or two, If they don't they become stopgaps.
That's what Daniel Jones is. He is in the tier with transitory starters like Tyrod Taylor and backups like Trubisky.
He is nowhere near the tier of pretty good starters which includes Carr and Cousins. Nowhere near it.
This season in head-to-head competition, Danile Jones beat Derek Carr and also out-performed him.
This season in head-to-head competition, Danile Jones beat Derek Carr and also out-performed him.
So you'd rather have Daniel Jones at QB than Derek Carr?
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Bottom 10 QBs are a collection of failed journeymen, stopgaps and a few rookies.
the rookies will make a tier bump in the next year or two, If they don't they become stopgaps.
That's what Daniel Jones is. He is in the tier with transitory starters like Tyrod Taylor and backups like Trubisky.
He is nowhere near the tier of pretty good starters which includes Carr and Cousins. Nowhere near it.
This season in head-to-head competition, Danile Jones beat Derek Carr and also out-performed him.
Jameis Winston beat Aaron Rodgers 38-3. Mahomes lost to Tannehill. Josh Allen lost to Trevor Lawrence. What's your point?
You could put a traffic cone at quarterback and say it had a bad supporting cast and you might be right. It doesn't make the cone a good quarterback.
Daniel Jones isn't a good quarterback. Can't be more clear than that.
Dave Gettleman is a great GM
Joe Judge is a great HC
They just needed more time and better people around them in order to succeed.
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In comment 15549363 M.S. said:
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In comment 15549350 Mike from SI said:
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Every starting QB should be better than his backups.
Actually, the idea was to indeed compare Daniel Jones with Glennon and Fromm because all three experienced the same unique circumstances... playing behind a putrid O-line and throwing the ball to WRs who were either injured and/or replaced by several practice squad players. It's a clean comparison.
Your argument assumes the same situation with a team playing for the same thing.
Can you really compare weeks 1-3 to weeks 16-18? This team has grown noticeably worse especially the offense in recent weeks. They had nothing to play for and it showed.
can you really compare a Golladay that was yelling at Garrett to the one we saw last week ; who looked like there were 1000 other places he'd rather be?
The Daniel Jones comparison encompasses the 11 games he played in this season. Not games 1-3.
You didn't even understand the point but were ready to defend Jones hjust the same. The question I have is Why?
Maybe I was not clear. This has not been the same team lately. The oline play was significantly better earlier in the season and the interest of the WR much higher. They have been totally checked out in recent weeks. Further more Jones got the opportunity to play 11 games . An opportunity he did not earn.
This season in head-to-head competition, Danile Jones beat Derek Carr and also out-performed him.
Ha ha ha! Oh boy.
(:-)
(:-(
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put the suck in successor
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(:-(
lol, should have been Gannon and Fromm
Next year when we sign Dalton(or some other Journeyman) are we gonna hear the same shit?
Mike Glennon 2020 Jax: TD% 3.9, INT% 2.8, Y/A 6.0, AY/A 5.5, Yards/Game 214
Rating 80, QBR 29.8
Trevor Lawrence 2021 Jax: TD% 1.8, INT% 3.0, Y/A 6.0, AY/A 5.0, Yards/game 214
Rating 69.6, QVR 32.2
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Bottom 10 QBs are a collection of failed journeymen, stopgaps and a few rookies.
the rookies will make a tier bump in the next year or two, If they don't they become stopgaps.
That's what Daniel Jones is. He is in the tier with transitory starters like Tyrod Taylor and backups like Trubisky.
He is nowhere near the tier of pretty good starters which includes Carr and Cousins. Nowhere near it.
This season in head-to-head competition, Danile Jones beat Derek Carr and also out-performed him.
I think you know this is a lame argument. Superior QBs lose games to inferior QBs all the time. Earlier this season, Tom Brady lost a game to Taysom Hill. Do we really think that makes Taysom Hill better than Tom Brady? It's a fatuous, dishonest point you are making and wastes time.
If this is what you need to pump up Daniel Jones, then even you don't believe what you are saying.
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In comment 15549424 Producer said:
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Bottom 10 QBs are a collection of failed journeymen, stopgaps and a few rookies.
the rookies will make a tier bump in the next year or two, If they don't they become stopgaps.
That's what Daniel Jones is. He is in the tier with transitory starters like Tyrod Taylor and backups like Trubisky.
He is nowhere near the tier of pretty good starters which includes Carr and Cousins. Nowhere near it.
This season in head-to-head competition, Danile Jones beat Derek Carr and also out-performed him.
I think you know this is a lame argument. Superior QBs lose games to inferior QBs all the time. Earlier this season, Tom Brady lost a game to Taysom Hill. Do we really think that makes Taysom Hill better than Tom Brady? It's a fatuous, dishonest point you are making and wastes time.
If this is what you need to pump up Daniel Jones, then even you don't believe what you are saying.
Either you have not read all my remarks on this thread or perhaps you misunderstood them. Whatever. Below is a paste of my responses to an earlier post. This pretty much summarizes my view of Daniel Jones.
Your Words:
Let's just cut through all the BS - what's your central thesis here as it relates to Daniel Jones? Do you believe that he's going to be among the best 5-10 QBs in the NFL at any point in his career?
My Response:
If I had to venture a guess, he will not be a Top 5 QB because that is reserved for Superstars like Rogers, Brady, et. al. and Daniel Jones is simply NOT in that class. Could he be in Top 10? Dunno. But what I do know is that no one knows for certain what his top-end is? If I had to venture a guess -- maybe upper-middle of the pack?
Your Words:
Because unless you believe that, there's no reason to engage in any discussion of his future with the Giants. You need an upper echelon QB in the NFL to be consistently competitive. If you don't have one, you need to find one.
My Response:
I would love an upper echelon QB as much as anyone, but I would love one in the context of a team that is half-way competent. I've seen Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers at their very peak, and I've also seen them when former Giants defenses compressed their pass pockets and put some serious hits on them. They didn't look like super-heroes then. In any event, there are very few super-hero QBs in the NFL, and finding them is no mean feat, so in the meantime I don't see the tragedy of Daniel Jones playing for the Giants in 2022.
Your Words:
Daniel Jones is near the bottom of NFL QBs. There's no comparison between him and the top tier at that position. None.
My Response:
I disagree. He is not near the bottom. Obviously, he does not compare well to guys like Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers... but who does? Your valuation of Daniel Jones has been clouded by the reality that he has played behind a pathetic O-line with WRs and TEs who are indeed near the bottom of the NFL.
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This season in head-to-head competition, Danile Jones beat Derek Carr and also out-performed him.
So you'd rather have Daniel Jones at QB than Derek Carr?
It's like BBIers don't read box scores, right? Jones throw or a buck ten in the game. 5.5 YPA. Just a scintillating performance by our "franchise QB".
BTW, Jones had a better QBR in the Chiefs game against Mahomes. Anyone want to make that swap?
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In comment 15549444 M.S. said:
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In comment 15549424 Producer said:
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Bottom 10 QBs are a collection of failed journeymen, stopgaps and a few rookies.
the rookies will make a tier bump in the next year or two, If they don't they become stopgaps.
That's what Daniel Jones is. He is in the tier with transitory starters like Tyrod Taylor and backups like Trubisky.
He is nowhere near the tier of pretty good starters which includes Carr and Cousins. Nowhere near it.
This season in head-to-head competition, Danile Jones beat Derek Carr and also out-performed him.
I think you know this is a lame argument. Superior QBs lose games to inferior QBs all the time. Earlier this season, Tom Brady lost a game to Taysom Hill. Do we really think that makes Taysom Hill better than Tom Brady? It's a fatuous, dishonest point you are making and wastes time.
If this is what you need to pump up Daniel Jones, then even you don't believe what you are saying.
Either you have not read all my remarks on this thread or perhaps you misunderstood them. Whatever. Below is a paste of my responses to an earlier post. This pretty much summarizes my view of Daniel Jones.
Your Words:
Let's just cut through all the BS - what's your central thesis here as it relates to Daniel Jones? Do you believe that he's going to be among the best 5-10 QBs in the NFL at any point in his career?
My Response:
If I had to venture a guess, he will not be a Top 5 QB because that is reserved for Superstars like Rogers, Brady, et. al. and Daniel Jones is simply NOT in that class. Could he be in Top 10? Dunno. But what I do know is that no one knows for certain what his top-end is? If I had to venture a guess -- maybe upper-middle of the pack?
Your Words:
Because unless you believe that, there's no reason to engage in any discussion of his future with the Giants. You need an upper echelon QB in the NFL to be consistently competitive. If you don't have one, you need to find one.
My Response:
I would love an upper echelon QB as much as anyone, but I would love one in the context of a team that is half-way competent. I've seen Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers at their very peak, and I've also seen them when former Giants defenses compressed their pass pockets and put some serious hits on them. They didn't look like super-heroes then. In any event, there are very few super-hero QBs in the NFL, and finding them is no mean feat, so in the meantime I don't see the tragedy of Daniel Jones playing for the Giants in 2022.
Your Words:
Daniel Jones is near the bottom of NFL QBs. There's no comparison between him and the top tier at that position. None.
My Response:
I disagree. He is not near the bottom. Obviously, he does not compare well to guys like Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers... but who does? Your valuation of Daniel Jones has been clouded by the reality that he has played behind a pathetic O-line with WRs and TEs who are indeed near the bottom of the NFL.
You may not agree that he is bottom 10, but the numbers say he is. And it is a consistent set of numbers across his entire career.
This is a common tactic here. Say Jones isn't as good as brady or Rodgers but then say he belongs in the next tier.
He does not. He is nowhere close to the top12.
Please do us all a favor and go to Pro Football reference 2021 passing stats and sort each column, one at a time. Notice in almost every category Jones is btween 22 and 27.
Jones is not only, not in the Brady/rodgers convo.
he is not in the Herbert convo
He is not in the Burrow convo
he is not in the Wilson convo
he is not in the Cousins convo
He is not in the Carr convo
see I'm going far down the list now...
He is not even in the Garropolo convo
Tua has now passed Jones.
Soon Lawrence will pass Jones.
You might want to tie the neck of the Giants franchise to this anvil for another 5 years. It has to stop. He is our biggest problem.
Daniel Jones is a coach killer. And I am quite certain Joe Judge regrets ever agreeing that Jones should be the QB of this team.
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In comment 15549763 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15549444 M.S. said:
Quote:
In comment 15549424 Producer said:
Quote:
Bottom 10 QBs are a collection of failed journeymen, stopgaps and a few rookies.
the rookies will make a tier bump in the next year or two, If they don't they become stopgaps.
That's what Daniel Jones is. He is in the tier with transitory starters like Tyrod Taylor and backups like Trubisky.
He is nowhere near the tier of pretty good starters which includes Carr and Cousins. Nowhere near it.
This season in head-to-head competition, Danile Jones beat Derek Carr and also out-performed him.
I think you know this is a lame argument. Superior QBs lose games to inferior QBs all the time. Earlier this season, Tom Brady lost a game to Taysom Hill. Do we really think that makes Taysom Hill better than Tom Brady? It's a fatuous, dishonest point you are making and wastes time.
If this is what you need to pump up Daniel Jones, then even you don't believe what you are saying.
Either you have not read all my remarks on this thread or perhaps you misunderstood them. Whatever. Below is a paste of my responses to an earlier post. This pretty much summarizes my view of Daniel Jones.
Your Words:
Let's just cut through all the BS - what's your central thesis here as it relates to Daniel Jones? Do you believe that he's going to be among the best 5-10 QBs in the NFL at any point in his career?
My Response:
If I had to venture a guess, he will not be a Top 5 QB because that is reserved for Superstars like Rogers, Brady, et. al. and Daniel Jones is simply NOT in that class. Could he be in Top 10? Dunno. But what I do know is that no one knows for certain what his top-end is? If I had to venture a guess -- maybe upper-middle of the pack?
Your Words:
Because unless you believe that, there's no reason to engage in any discussion of his future with the Giants. You need an upper echelon QB in the NFL to be consistently competitive. If you don't have one, you need to find one.
My Response:
I would love an upper echelon QB as much as anyone, but I would love one in the context of a team that is half-way competent. I've seen Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers at their very peak, and I've also seen them when former Giants defenses compressed their pass pockets and put some serious hits on them. They didn't look like super-heroes then. In any event, there are very few super-hero QBs in the NFL, and finding them is no mean feat, so in the meantime I don't see the tragedy of Daniel Jones playing for the Giants in 2022.
Your Words:
Daniel Jones is near the bottom of NFL QBs. There's no comparison between him and the top tier at that position. None.
My Response:
I disagree. He is not near the bottom. Obviously, he does not compare well to guys like Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers... but who does? Your valuation of Daniel Jones has been clouded by the reality that he has played behind a pathetic O-line with WRs and TEs who are indeed near the bottom of the NFL.
You may not agree that he is bottom 10, but the numbers say he is. And it is a consistent set of numbers across his entire career.
This is a common tactic here. Say Jones isn't as good as brady or Rodgers but then say he belongs in the next tier.
He does not. He is nowhere close to the top12.
Please do us all a favor and go to Pro Football reference 2021 passing stats and sort each column, one at a time. Notice in almost every category Jones is btween 22 and 27.
Jones is not only, not in the Brady/rodgers convo.
he is not in the Herbert convo
He is not in the Burrow convo
he is not in the Wilson convo
he is not in the Cousins convo
He is not in the Carr convo
see I'm going far down the list now...
He is not even in the Garropolo convo
Tua has now passed Jones.
Soon Lawrence will pass Jones.
You might want to tie the neck of the Giants franchise to this anvil for another 5 years. It has to stop. He is our biggest problem.
Daniel Jones is a coach killer. And I am quite certain Joe Judge regrets ever agreeing that Jones should be the QB of this team.
I understand how you feel about Daniel Jones, which can be summarized as follows:
(1) He sucks;
(2) Even with a good offensive line and a healthy set of fine receivers, he still would suck.
That is why I disagree with your opinion about Daniel Jones.
And your arguments are rooted in fantasy, speculation, and wishful thinking,
It's wishful thinking that got us into this mess.
And your arguments are rooted in fantasy, speculation, and wishful thinking,
It's wishful thinking that got us into this mess.
Fact:. We have the bottom tier talent on the OLine and receiver corps. Compound that with terrible coaching and you get an offensive year like this. Every game we won this year was because of Jones
The Panthers oline is dreadful -- would you be willing to give Darnold the benefit of the doubt? Of course not. You say he sucks, and glad the Giants didn't draft him and , laugh at Rhule at Carolina for paying him. And at least you can say Darnold was a top prospect coming out.
So why doesn't that apply to jones as well? Especially considering new coach and GM will now have to inherit him like Judge did. 2 coaches ago!
It is rebuild time ; new GM time ; new coach time and yes new QB time. Especially considering that all the decent players on this team are free agents anyway so jones is the only thing to wheel and deal on roster moves.
The Panthers oline is dreadful -- would you be willing to give Darnold the benefit of the doubt? Of course not. You say he sucks, and glad the Giants didn't draft him and , laugh at Rhule at Carolina for paying him. And at least you can say Darnold was a top prospect coming out.
So why doesn't that apply to jones as well? Especially considering new coach and GM will now have to inherit him like Judge did. 2 coaches ago!
It is rebuild time ; new GM time ; new coach time and yes new QB time. Especially considering that all the decent players on this team are free agents anyway so jones is the only thing to wheel and deal on roster moves.
Your opening statement is misguided, and like a few others on this thread you can only think of Daniel Jones in bi-modal terms -- either he sucks or he doesn't suck. You simply will not allow for any middle-ground or nuanced view of Daniel Jones.
In a similar vein, just because a poster is not in your "suck camp" -- that doesn't mean he must be a "Jones pumper." That's a very limited view of things and simply not how it works.
In any event, I see you mentioned that it's rebuild time with a new GM and a new HC, thus a new QB. In the link below you will see I started a thread this morning that speculated this point exactly, and I'm supposedly one of your "Daniel Jones "pumpers."
Your Biggest NYG Draft Surprise Round One - ( New Window )
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So Jones pumpers why does Jones get the benefit of the doubt?
The Panthers oline is dreadful -- would you be willing to give Darnold the benefit of the doubt? Of course not. You say he sucks, and glad the Giants didn't draft him and , laugh at Rhule at Carolina for paying him. And at least you can say Darnold was a top prospect coming out.
So why doesn't that apply to jones as well? Especially considering new coach and GM will now have to inherit him like Judge did. 2 coaches ago!
It is rebuild time ; new GM time ; new coach time and yes new QB time. Especially considering that all the decent players on this team are free agents anyway so jones is the only thing to wheel and deal on roster moves.
Your opening statement is misguided, and like a few others on this thread you can only think of Daniel Jones in bi-modal terms -- either he sucks or he doesn't suck. You simply will not allow for any middle-ground or nuanced view of Daniel Jones.
In a similar vein, just because a poster is not in your "suck camp" -- that doesn't mean he must be a "Jones pumper." That's a very limited view of things and simply not how it works.
In any event, I see you mentioned that it's rebuild time with a new GM and a new HC, thus a new QB. In the link below you will see I started a thread this morning that speculated this point exactly, and I'm supposedly one of your "Daniel Jones "pumpers." Your Biggest NYG Draft Surprise Round One - ( New Window )
So we passed on herbert because we are committed to Jones and we are going to draft another QB in the top 10 but play Jones more?
And I am somehow obtuse because I am making Jones pumpers out to be irrational but, it is really me who irrational?
THere are backups in this league better than Jones. Glennon might not be one of them. But others are -- Minshew ; Kyle Allen even; A Dalton; Nick Foles just to name 4. But instead of acknowledging this you make a comparison to a Glennon or Fromm a fourth stringer they started because everyone else . So I am mis-characterizing that as pumping?
Why don't you answer the question-- why doesn't Darnold get this? Every argument oline etc can be made about Darnold.