Maybe it's just semantics, but "oversee" and "aspects" are pretty wishy washy IMHO.
Quote:
"... somebody who will oversee aspects of our football operations, including player personnel, college scouting and coaching."
I'd rather John Mara have said
Quote:
"[General Manager]... somebody who will be responsible for and have final decision making authority over all of our football operations, including player personnel, college scouting and coaching."
Hopefully by going outside the building the new GM drags new scouts over for the 2023 draft. That to me is the most critical part.
I work in corporate for years whenever a new ceo or vc is named and they come from the outside within a year or 2 they assemble a team of people they have worked with. If this happens then they can minimize Chris Mara.
I really hope this GM happens to bring in new blood. That is why DG was the wrong choice and should have been fired 2 years ago he never brought in any new people.
hart (No GM Or HC Currently Shown) - ( New Window )
Train - stop looking at the org chart. This is what John Mara said the GM role is in charge of...
somebody who will oversee all aspects of our football operations, including player personnel, college scouting and coaching."
"Oversee" doesn't mean spit. Is the GM going to have the authority to hire/fire? Doesn't Chris currently have the role of overseeing personnel? And according to ownership he just hangs out at his desk and doesn't make any decisions.
But he pretty much said all the right things. He was humble and acknowledged they’ve gotten a lot wrong. He seems committed to moving forward in a way that acknowledges past mistakes and knows he essentially has to prove it to the fans.
People may not have liked all of his responses but he did not duck any question thrown at him.
why are some of you guys even listening to this? some of you won't be satisfied until he sells the team. why bother if you just have only negative comments about fucking everything? the guy finally did what you guys asked him to do, yet you're still bitching.
That act like they know something. They don't, I don't, none of us do. So don't waste your fucking time and effort. I post what I think and move on. He is tge owner of tge ream who wants to do great more then we want it. He answered the question about Chris Mara, its the end if that fucking story. He answered why this has gone off the rails, they have hired the wrong people these last 5 years. Even Reese was not a wrong hire. He failed to keep an Oline good when he had an aging immobile QB. But if we all calm down it's clear that this has gone off the rails the last 5 years. From Gettleman to McAdoo to Shyrmur to Judge. That was John Mara's failure. The killer was Gettleman. But he did build a Panther organization that was 15-1 and list the Super Bowl
Time to move on.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Get rid of the issue. Remove the title.
hart (No GM Or HC Currently Shown) - ( New Window )
Train - stop looking at the org chart. This is what John Mara said the GM role is in charge of...
somebody who will oversee all aspects of our football operations, including player personnel, college scouting and coaching."
"Oversee" doesn't mean spit. Is the GM going to have the authority to hire/fire? Doesn't Chris currently have the role of overseeing personnel? And according to ownership he just hangs out at his desk and doesn't make any decisions.
Does overseeing include the ability to tell Chris "I appreciate your POV and input, but that's not how we're going to do it"?
is all that bad during these annual pressers (unlike the DG disasters) and comes off as wanting more as an owner and a fan from the people he has trusted to operate the front office, and coach and play the game on the field.
* Fired his bad hire in Gettleman
* Fired a coach that allowed things to go off the deep end
* Running a broader GM search this time with all outsiders
* Abrams isn't being considered
* Said that new GM will run process to hire the next coach
* Said that new GM will decide fate of some key existing players
* Described what the new GM is in charge of and what roles he, Steve and Chris respectively play in the org
What the hell else could you people want? This is like manna from heaven for fans to get this broken franchise fixed.
Hopefully the GM pick is a good one and let's go from there...
RE: RE: RE: RE: Get rid of the issue. Remove the title.
hart (No GM Or HC Currently Shown) - ( New Window )
Train - stop looking at the org chart. This is what John Mara said the GM role is in charge of...
somebody who will oversee all aspects of our football operations, including player personnel, college scouting and coaching."
"Oversee" doesn't mean spit. Is the GM going to have the authority to hire/fire? Doesn't Chris currently have the role of overseeing personnel? And according to ownership he just hangs out at his desk and doesn't make any decisions.
“Chris is a very skilled evaluator, but he does not have any authority here other than that I will go to him on occasion and ask him about players,”
“Tim is probably the most respected person we have in this building,” Mara boasted. “Coaches, front office staff, the general manager go to him and ask his advice on players because he’s a good evaluator, he’s worked his way up from the bottom, and he’s earned his stripes. He does not have any authority here."
Ownership's continued involvement in the grading/selection of players and "advice" for GM and HC.
He sounded defiant regarding this issue. The clown picture pissed him off. Its personal now.
why are some of you guys even listening to this? some of you won't be satisfied until he sells the team. why bother if you just have only negative comments about fucking everything? the guy finally did what you guys asked him to do, yet you're still bitching.
I'll be satisfied when Mara says publicly that the GM will have final say on all matters involving personnel and scouting" Anything short of that is word games.
If he wants to add that the Mara family and the Tisch family have veto power on contract amounts and #1 draft picks, at least we'd know where he stands on that. And that would be his right as an owner
I know we have become a joke. The decline is real and fans are right to be angry. I do think things have changed between now and at the inception of the Gettleman era and I think ownership is aware of the mistakes they made that got them here.
It may sound like the same clueless owner speaking to many of you and that's fine, but to me there is an acknowledgement that the decisions need to be better, including the most important one of all, the GM. At the beginning of the DG era the Giants were still confident they had a pretty good handle on things based on the previous SB success and felt like grabbing DG was smart.
but as Eric says "talk is cheap". I remember 1979 vividly. I was excited when George Young was hired and he brought in Ray Perkins. He stopped the losing. I hope they hire the next GY and he believes in the Planet Theory
why are some of you guys even listening to this? some of you won't be satisfied until he sells the team. why bother if you just have only negative comments about fucking everything? the guy finally did what you guys asked him to do, yet you're still bitching.
hart (No GM Or HC Currently Shown) - ( New Window )
Train - stop looking at the org chart. This is what John Mara said the GM role is in charge of...
somebody who will oversee all aspects of our football operations, including player personnel, college scouting and coaching."
"Oversee" doesn't mean spit. Is the GM going to have the authority to hire/fire? Doesn't Chris currently have the role of overseeing personnel? And according to ownership he just hangs out at his desk and doesn't make any decisions.
Yes
No
Not what John said
This is from the transcript of what John said today-
" the reality is that, in terms of my brother, my brother spends most of his time doing evaluation of college players. His grades go into our system and he participates in the draft. All personnel decisions in this building – and this has always been the case – have been made by the general manager and the head coach."
So what is the real difference between that and what I said? No, he didn't use the word "oversees", but one would expect that comes with his job title of head of dept.
RE: RE: I thought Mara was credible in answers. I never typically think he
I'll be satisfied when Mara says publicly that the GM will have final say on all matters involving personnel and scouting" Anything short of that is word games.
If he wants to add that the Mara family and the Tisch family have veto power on contract amounts and #1 draft picks, at least we'd know where he stands on that. And that would be his right as an owner
Bill - i don't think he has to...he already said who is in charge of the player decisions, what everybody does and when he himself weighs in and why. That's it my friend...time to see if they pick a good GM.
The reasons Chris and Tim have those titles IS BECAUSE THEY ARE MARA/OWNERS. It justifies out-of-whack salaries they probably collect. If their last names were Smith, they'd just be scouts.
Titles are cheap, If they don't have any REAL power (beyond scouting) above the GM, I don't give a shit if OWNERS keep their BS titles.
Some of you act like you've never heard of nepotism.
Frankly, I'd prefer to see them overseeing the guys who clean up the stadium and parking lot after the games, but that's not going to happen.
I don't care if they give Christ the title of President of Giants AWESOMENESS!!!!! with all of those exclamation points. Get him a desk next to Eli.
I TOO would get them OUT of Personnel because it's a bad look. BUT, if they really don't have selection power over he GM and HC, it's not the end of the world.
AGAIN. My problem is with the scouting and talent evaluation. Let's say they hired . . . whoever you think is the best GM of all time, and the best HC of all time.
If the scouting SUCKS, and the GM and HC are looking at scouting reports that says the next Franchise QB is Nelson Munce, you still have a problem.
The picks made by a GM and HC are still only as good as the data they are being fed.
So maybe the new GM brings in his own scouts. And let's say, worst case, maybe there's still some input from guys named Mara. So 10 scouts say DRAFT THIS OL. And one Mara says, no, draft Comic Book Guy from Springfield, hopefully the GM and the coach weigh that accordingly. And ignore Mara.
now he/they need to follow up with the right actions. Otherwise, "the narrative" will still continue to apply.
He was mostly hitting the right notes. It was interesting when he actually used the phrase "completely blow it up". I would love to know where the epiphany came from...
Now it is indeed about executing what you said and honoring it.
He seemed dead-up honest and remarkably humble about his failings over the last bunch of years.
Clarified they knew they had to give the GM say over who the HC was (not saddle a GM with JJ).
Seems like they knew they had to "blow it up" go OUTSIDE the building this time to fix it. Hence no mention of Abrams.
He also clarified (even when pressed) that while Chris and Tim evaluate players, they don't have ANY authority on who's drafted/acquired. That's SOLEY up to the GM and the HC.
I didn't hear anything in this presser that sound like obvious lies or BS.
It seems that BBI got a lot of their assumptions wrong.
Let's just hope he gets it right this time.
I mean, taking what John Mara said at face value, is it me, or do Tim and Chris work for a living? Cause that's what it seems he's saying.
He seemed dead-up honest and remarkably humble about his failings over the last bunch of years.
Clarified they knew they had to give the GM say over who the HC was (not saddle a GM with JJ).
Seems like they knew they had to "blow it up" go OUTSIDE the building this time to fix it. Hence no mention of Abrams.
He also clarified (even when pressed) that while Chris and Tim evaluate players, they don't have ANY authority on who's drafted/acquired. That's SOLEY up to the GM and the HC.
I didn't hear anything in this presser that sound like obvious lies or BS.
It seems that BBI got a lot of their assumptions wrong.
Let's just hope he gets it right this time.
Wrong.
If I posted John Mara's pressers from January 2016, January 2018, and January 2020, you would have a hard time telling them apart from this one.
If if Chris Mara doesn't have influence, why does he have such a lofty (VP of personnel) title?
Don't automatically assume what you are being told is the the truth.
to change their doom and gloom attitude or polyana attitude as honestly neither one is completely right or wrong. I will just give them a chance as they are doing what ALL of us asked for:
Outside the building for a GM and not using past Giants connection as a reason to speak with them and not to force Joe Judge on a new GM.
The one question I am curious about is what Mara said about player selection- the GM and Coach decide unless it is a split decision then Mara chimes in OR there is an off the field issue with a player.. if that is true, I am curious if Micah Parsons was a target who was removed from consideration for off the field rumors..
Did he actually say he chimes in if it's a split decision? What he said certainly implied that, but he didn't actually say it.
He did say he'll speak up over character issues.
What's certainly clear is he said that he isn't proffering draft or personnel choices, as much as he approves or denies recommendations, and if coach and GM are in agreement it's a rubber stamp process unless he has character concerns.
RE: Chris Mara Is Senior VP; Gettleman Was Senior VP
He certainly has some brotherly love and I think he does value Chris's opinion. He is also not budging Chris and Tim being involved.
The big issue I see but maybe I am seeing it wrong but the HC and GM have equal value in the draft process. The problem is I am not sure that happens with great consistency. So you probably need a great tandem working together that can compromise, otherwise it seems rather vague if they are in disagreement and how that plays out and is rectified. Mara said the HC and GM have always made the personnel decisions around here.
Going back to Gilbride's comment after he was asked about Pugh kind of resonate here. Gilbride said they had been telling the front office we need to get some OL in here for a couple years. This was 2013. Something is not adding up here. I leaning towards more chefs than stated. I mention this because OL still is a issue today.
RE: I don't think they should be in personnel, either
In fact, I'm on record as saying the WHOLE scouting department sucks donkey balls. I think they should clean that house, and start with new, GM-picked scouts who KNOW NFL-level talent (outside the first 5 picks) when they see it.
Quote:
Wrong.
If I posted John Mara's pressers from January 2016, January 2018, and January 2020, you would have a hard time telling them apart from this one.
If if Chris Mara doesn't have influence, why does he have such a lofty (VP of personnel) title?
Don't automatically assume what you are being told is the the truth.
Did I say that? Let's say you're right and that the stuff about Chris and Tim are lies.
What else in the press conference was?
For MONTHS, the mantra has been it's gonna be Abrams and Judge. YOU thought that, Eric. For most of that time, I agreed with you.
But it doesn't appear to be playing out that way. Thankfully.
And FWIW, TO ME he seemed a bit more humbled and culpable than he did in 16, 18, and 20. YMMV
He called it the lowest point in his tenure. I don't recall hearing that before.
Mara has to sign off on every personnel decision? Do all owners do that? If both coach and GM do not agree, how does it get resolved? Does Mara decide or does he get Chris involved? From this press conference, I don’t believe we will be getting one of the prime candidates.
"Does Mara decide or does he get Chris involved?"
He didn't say. Taken EXACTLY as he said it, and by what HAS to be implied, if he is taken verbatim, Then , unless there IS a consensus, then there is NO approach to him for a decision. That is to say, unless there is agreement between coach and GM, then the proposal is stillborn.
"Don't come to me to approve a signing or pick unless you are in agreement," forcing them to come to a consensus, seems to be the only way to take it. Ultimately that forces a give and take between GM and HC. Or do you favor a setup where the GM can choose as he wants without regard the the HC, or vice versa for that matter.
It’s possible that Mara has in fact “stayed out of the way” all these years and has simply made the sole mistake of hiring the wrong people?
Or does that not fit into the group think.
Maybe he just hired the wrong GM and HC ? We love to kill DG but at the same time seem to have developed this invisible and evil entity that ruins everything in its path. Are we really sure that’s what did this franchise in the last 10 years?
I mean Mara says a bunch of Innocuous shit today and as usual there are 10000 comments ripping him to shreds. What’s the point.
Mara was very irritated by the Chris question. But it was appropriate high-ranking title. If Mara wants to defuse any misperception, change the titles of Chris and Tim. Because as long as those titles persist, the questions will linger.
This part was confusing about interest in the GM and the number of candidates:
Quote:
All I can tell you is based on the number of inquiries that I have had from prospective candidates; we’re not going to be able to interview even 20 percent of all of them.
Does that make sense? Let's say 40 people are interested. I'm guessing that's a really high number...? We couldn't interview 8 of them? I didn't like the answer. Interview EVERY person who you think is possibly good. That's the only way to find the best candidates.
Is it possible 80% they don't consider serious candidates out of the gate? Just because a man solicits consideration doesn't mean he deserves an interview.
To get on him for meddling or intervening? There’s zero data or evidence to prove any of that talk. And really if anything there’s evidence to support the claims that Mara does in fact stay out of the way. What evidence you ask? Basically go look at interviews or former front office execs from nyg or former coaches. They all say the same shit that Mara is basically harmless and they loved working here.
So we have REAL evidence or proof that Mara doesn’t interfere at all and nothing more than anecdotal evidence or rumor that Mara does meddle, and honestly I’m not sure I’ve even seen even that.
Mara hired the wrong people. Maybe he forced or heavily influenced a few poor personnel moves. Maybe he told DG to win with Eli, but we have never ever ever heard any proof of this.
Maybe the guys Mara hired just fucking sucked and if anything, Mara simply stuck with them for too long. Indictable to be sure, but some very popular posters here and elsewhere on Twitter have propagated this belief that Mara has somehow morphed into an east coast jerry jones. When the fuck did THAT happen?
I mean one of the more respected and polarizing posters here
The Giants have a boatload of Senior VPs (org chart linked below; might not be official).
The problem isn't that Chris Mara is a Senior VP. Make him Senior VP, Chief Cook & Bottle Washer. Anything but Senior VP of Player Personnel.
According to the linked org chart, Chris Mara has 16 people reporting to him, including:
Ken Sternfeld, Director of Pro Personnel
Mark Koncz, Director of Player Personnel
Chris Pettit, Director of College Scouting
Jeremiah Davis, Executive Scout
Ed Triggs, Director of Football Operations
Kevin Abrams, VP of Football Operations & Assistant GMs
Now:
1) This "unofficial org chart" might be wrong or
2) The org chart is in flux / incomplete given there is currently no GM or HC
Still, all the people listed as reporting to Chris Mara should be reporting to the GM IMHO.
IF this is the Giants structure, this is a problem and may cause some top GM candidates to decline if the structure isn't changed.
Supposedly The Giants Org Chart (No GM Or HC Currently Shown) - ( New Window )
If they don't fix the structural problems, you won't have to worry about the whining. The fan base will become apathetic and disappear.
Oh ok. I thought it was hiring of GM and HC at the same time and the “half measures” that was the issue? I guess that isn’t the issue anymore?
Now the issue is solely Chris Mara? Got it.
No. The issue is that scouting and identifying talent — both Pro and College — has sucked for 10+ years and owner family members are entrenched at the top tier of that portion of the Org chart. Could it be their lousy input that is screwing up the player grades that the GM needs to use? Do they protect poor scouts who are their longtime buddies? Who evaluates their scouting success or failure and who can fire them or push them aside if they are demonstrably bad? This is a huge issue moving forward and worth “obsessing about.”
But I’m glad you and a few others keep posting under the same accounts, because, yeah, it’s obvious.
I thought the questions asked were all very good and very on point. (Good job beats. But someone needs to tell Hanlon to get Dan or Nick from Big Blue Banter on the press list?
I thought Mr Mara was very honest. I’ve never thought he wanted anything but what’s best for the Giants. I know the Pepsi thing was nuts and he’s missed with personnel decisions. But it’s hard to hire good people. And the lifecycle of a GM is a couple of coaches and four years. So, Getty was horrible but I do understand the thinking behind all these poor decisions.
Think about Judge. I was impressed by his first presser and he had good references. I mean - he fooled a lot of us. I’ve hired a lot of people in my career and they don’t all work out. It’s hard to hire good people.
About the family. I think some of us are being very unrealistic about human nature. If I owned the Giants, I’d be more than happy to be involved. Um, that’s probably why I’d have bought the team. Are there any teams, aside from the Packers, where the owners aren’t involved in football operations? Any? Like, that’s why you own a team - to be involved. And, it’s not like someone is going to be successful just because they aren’t related to the owner.
Anyway, I think the whole nepotism and family thing is a bit oversold and entirely normal in all kinds of business. I work for a family business. And yeah, the family gets special consideration. That’s just the way the world works.
Anyway, it’s the reset that many of us wanted. I was glad to hear that the top GM candidates all have jobs in the league because that leaves out a couple names that have been out there. Let’s hope we get a great GM who gets a great coach and let’s hope they find a legit franchise quarterback in the draft or in Seattle.
Maybe it's just semantics, but "oversee" and "aspects" are pretty wishy washy IMHO.
Quote:
"... somebody who will oversee aspects of our football operations, including player personnel, college scouting and coaching."
I'd rather John Mara have said
Quote:
"[General Manager]... somebody who will be responsible for and have final decision making authority over all of our football operations, including player personnel, college scouting and coaching."
Except that's not what he said. He said " oversee ALL aspects". Clever little bit of editing there. Here's a hint. If you want to quote people and find you have to insert words in our take words out, your point may not actually stand on it's own merits. In this case, it changes the meaning of the sentence ENTIRELY.
I generally liked what he said but this is some BS
Tim (McDonnell) is probably the most respected guy we have in this building. The coaches, front office staff, the general manager go to him and ask his advice on players because he is a good evaluator. He’s worked his way up from the bottom and he’s earned his stripes. He does not have any authority here.
Do you really think anyone is going to give you unflattering information on your nephew. Anyone talking to you about him is OF COURSE going to say nice things. "Oh yeah that Tim, he is a real idiot, I DO NOT respect him" Come on John. Get a grip there. And the last throw in, "he doesn't have any authority here" come on, he is the most respected voice and has a direct familial line to the people in charge and you think you can just throw in "he doesn't have any authority." What a crock of shit. You could also just say he has experience, the whole earning your stripes thing. As someone pointed out with Chris. Seriously doubt he lived the life of a scout when he started.
Does that make sense? Let's say 40 people are interested. I'm guessing that's a really high number...? We couldn't interview 8 of them? I didn't like the answer. Interview EVERY person who you think is possibly good. That's the only way to find the best candidates.
Is it possible 80% they don't consider serious candidates out of the gate? Just because a man solicits consideration doesn't mean he deserves an interview.
I didn't think of it that way. Maybe you are right.
I heard it as if Mara didn't think he had the time.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Get rid of the issue. Remove the title.
hart (No GM Or HC Currently Shown) - ( New Window )
Train - stop looking at the org chart. This is what John Mara said the GM role is in charge of...
somebody who will oversee all aspects of our football operations, including player personnel, college scouting and coaching."
"Oversee" doesn't mean spit. Is the GM going to have the authority to hire/fire? Doesn't Chris currently have the role of overseeing personnel? And according to ownership he just hangs out at his desk and doesn't make any decisions.
Does overseeing include the ability to tell Chris "I appreciate your POV and input, but that's not how we're going to do it"?
Seems murky in the past, but going forward, from what mara said, yes, that is the case going forward.
The issue arise on draft day, really, and nowhere else.
What happens when GM wants this guy, HCC wants that guy, scout have their candidate they feel strongly about and it isn't a guy either HC or GM want. Does GM have final say? or Mara? If it's Mara, you can expect it's possible his brother offered his opinion, or that John asked him for it.
The functioal problem with this is, and I think this is where the genesis of the supposed dysfunction arises as that it one ccase the GM gets his way, the coach is pissed. another time the HC gets his way and the GM feels undermined, and they both vye for the ear of chris mara who , obviously, speaks to his brother. It is THIS matter that needs structural resolution and clarity above all else. THIS is the real issue. Not so much Chris mara meddling or incompetent. It justs works out this way under this structure. it maifests itself in different forms in other organizations. There is no real clean answer, because any answer involves it's own inherent weaknesses and tradeoffs.
It's a hard sell to say bring the organization into the 21st century, and then eschew " collaboration" or "consensus" when it comes to personell.. we use those very terms to define modernity in the workign environment.
Should it all be on the GM and fuck what his HC or owner think, or say thy need, or can afford? Or should the HC be able to tell the GM and owner who to sign and who not to? If so, why? There are arguments to be made either way. The current setup needs an enema, I can see what they were trying to do though. They need to clean up either chris Maras role or his title, or his duties. Title is the easiest route, honestly.
not absolving anyone but if you scan the FO directory of any pro team
you will usually find at least 1 person matching the last name of the owner. That's just the reality in every sport. Met fans were bent out of shape re Bryn Alderson but it's a constant everywhere. The TB Rays owner's son is in their FO. It's just the way of the world, and sports maybe a little more so since they are in demand jobs. For every belichek or shannhan or wolf descendant there's a reid kid screwing up.
get the real leaders right (GM/HC) and the rest doesn't matter.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Get rid of the issue. Remove the title.
hart (No GM Or HC Currently Shown) - ( New Window )
Train - stop looking at the org chart. This is what John Mara said the GM role is in charge of...
somebody who will oversee all aspects of our football operations, including player personnel, college scouting and coaching."
"Oversee" doesn't mean spit. Is the GM going to have the authority to hire/fire? Doesn't Chris currently have the role of overseeing personnel? And according to ownership he just hangs out at his desk and doesn't make any decisions.
Does overseeing include the ability to tell Chris "I appreciate your POV and input, but that's not how we're going to do it"?
yes, that's what he said. No other way to interpret it when he said the GM and HC makes the personell choices, then come to him to sign off.Besides that, i think that was asked and answered directly during that conference, he said Chris isn't making selections.
I'd rather John Mara have said
I work in corporate for years whenever a new ceo or vc is named and they come from the outside within a year or 2 they assemble a team of people they have worked with. If this happens then they can minimize Chris Mara.
I really hope this GM happens to bring in new blood. That is why DG was the wrong choice and should have been fired 2 years ago he never brought in any new people.
That presser dismissed a lot of the narrative about him that has been stated pretty much as fact around here for a while.
Everyone will continue to draw their own conclusions, but Mara satisfied me today, that it has been some bad hires that has led to this mess.
That s a hopeful message, as getting this one correct, as his dad did with Coughlin, can soon return this franchise to competitive winning football.
Train - stop looking at the org chart. This is what John Mara said the GM role is in charge of...
somebody who will oversee all aspects of our football operations, including player personnel, college scouting and coaching."
"Oversee" doesn't mean spit. Is the GM going to have the authority to hire/fire? Doesn't Chris currently have the role of overseeing personnel? And according to ownership he just hangs out at his desk and doesn't make any decisions.
People may not have liked all of his responses but he did not duck any question thrown at him.
That presser dismissed a lot of the narrative about him that has been stated pretty much as fact around here for a while.
Everyone will continue to draw their own conclusions, but Mara satisfied me today, that it has been some bad hires that has led to this mess.
That s a hopeful message, as getting this one correct, as his dad did with Coughlin, can soon return this franchise to competitive winning football.
Again, you post here is exactly what was written by BBI'ers after Mara's presser in Jan 2016, Jan 2018, and Jan 2020. He made all of us "feel good."
Let’s see how the process plays out.
Time to move on.
Quote:
hart (No GM Or HC Currently Shown) - ( New Window )
Train - stop looking at the org chart. This is what John Mara said the GM role is in charge of...
somebody who will oversee all aspects of our football operations, including player personnel, college scouting and coaching."
"Oversee" doesn't mean spit. Is the GM going to have the authority to hire/fire? Doesn't Chris currently have the role of overseeing personnel? And according to ownership he just hangs out at his desk and doesn't make any decisions.
Does overseeing include the ability to tell Chris "I appreciate your POV and input, but that's not how we're going to do it"?
Time to move on.
That's not accurate. Marty Hurney built that team. Just look at that roster and ALL of the key players.
That presser dismissed a lot of the narrative about him that has been stated pretty much as fact around here for a while.
Everyone will continue to draw their own conclusions, but Mara satisfied me today, that it has been some bad hires that has led to this mess.
That s a hopeful message, as getting this one correct, as his dad did with Coughlin, can soon return this franchise to competitive winning football.
John is an attorney, right? I'd bet he knows the difference between lying and not telling the whole truth.
* Fired his bad hire in Gettleman
* Fired a coach that allowed things to go off the deep end
* Running a broader GM search this time with all outsiders
* Abrams isn't being considered
* Said that new GM will run process to hire the next coach
* Said that new GM will decide fate of some key existing players
* Described what the new GM is in charge of and what roles he, Steve and Chris respectively play in the org
What the hell else could you people want? This is like manna from heaven for fans to get this broken franchise fixed.
Hopefully the GM pick is a good one and let's go from there...
Quote:
hart (No GM Or HC Currently Shown) - ( New Window )
Train - stop looking at the org chart. This is what John Mara said the GM role is in charge of...
somebody who will oversee all aspects of our football operations, including player personnel, college scouting and coaching."
"Oversee" doesn't mean spit. Is the GM going to have the authority to hire/fire? Doesn't Chris currently have the role of overseeing personnel? And according to ownership he just hangs out at his desk and doesn't make any decisions.
Yes
No
Not what John said
“Chris is a very skilled evaluator, but he does not have any authority here other than that I will go to him on occasion and ask him about players,”
“Tim is probably the most respected person we have in this building,” Mara boasted. “Coaches, front office staff, the general manager go to him and ask his advice on players because he’s a good evaluator, he’s worked his way up from the bottom, and he’s earned his stripes. He does not have any authority here."
Ownership's continued involvement in the grading/selection of players and "advice" for GM and HC.
He sounded defiant regarding this issue. The clown picture pissed him off. Its personal now.
Pat H earned his keep on the prep.
This!!!!
Oh ok. I thought it was hiring of GM and HC at the same time and the “half measures” that was the issue? I guess that isn’t the issue anymore?
Now the issue is solely Chris Mara? Got it.
No, the fan base will not “disappear” based on Chris Mara being on the payroll. Sorry.
What the hell else could you people want?
I'll be satisfied when Mara says publicly that the GM will have final say on all matters involving personnel and scouting" Anything short of that is word games.
If he wants to add that the Mara family and the Tisch family have veto power on contract amounts and #1 draft picks, at least we'd know where he stands on that. And that would be his right as an owner
It may sound like the same clueless owner speaking to many of you and that's fine, but to me there is an acknowledgement that the decisions need to be better, including the most important one of all, the GM. At the beginning of the DG era the Giants were still confident they had a pretty good handle on things based on the previous SB success and felt like grabbing DG was smart.
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why are some of you guys even listening to this? some of you won't be satisfied until he sells the team. why bother if you just have only negative comments about fucking everything? the guy finally did what you guys asked him to do, yet you're still bitching.
OK shill.
lol
Nah, not my style...
:-)
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In comment 15549773 Jimmy Googs said:
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hart (No GM Or HC Currently Shown) - ( New Window )
Train - stop looking at the org chart. This is what John Mara said the GM role is in charge of...
somebody who will oversee all aspects of our football operations, including player personnel, college scouting and coaching."
"Oversee" doesn't mean spit. Is the GM going to have the authority to hire/fire? Doesn't Chris currently have the role of overseeing personnel? And according to ownership he just hangs out at his desk and doesn't make any decisions.
Yes
No
Not what John said
This is from the transcript of what John said today-
" the reality is that, in terms of my brother, my brother spends most of his time doing evaluation of college players. His grades go into our system and he participates in the draft. All personnel decisions in this building – and this has always been the case – have been made by the general manager and the head coach."
So what is the real difference between that and what I said? No, he didn't use the word "oversees", but one would expect that comes with his job title of head of dept.
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What the hell else could you people want?
I'll be satisfied when Mara says publicly that the GM will have final say on all matters involving personnel and scouting" Anything short of that is word games.
If he wants to add that the Mara family and the Tisch family have veto power on contract amounts and #1 draft picks, at least we'd know where he stands on that. And that would be his right as an owner
Bill - i don't think he has to...he already said who is in charge of the player decisions, what everybody does and when he himself weighs in and why. That's it my friend...time to see if they pick a good GM.
Titles are cheap, If they don't have any REAL power (beyond scouting) above the GM, I don't give a shit if OWNERS keep their BS titles.
Some of you act like you've never heard of nepotism.
Frankly, I'd prefer to see them overseeing the guys who clean up the stadium and parking lot after the games, but that's not going to happen.
I don't care if they give Christ the title of President of Giants AWESOMENESS!!!!! with all of those exclamation points. Get him a desk next to Eli.
I TOO would get them OUT of Personnel because it's a bad look. BUT, if they really don't have selection power over he GM and HC, it's not the end of the world.
AGAIN. My problem is with the scouting and talent evaluation. Let's say they hired . . . whoever you think is the best GM of all time, and the best HC of all time.
If the scouting SUCKS, and the GM and HC are looking at scouting reports that says the next Franchise QB is Nelson Munce, you still have a problem.
The picks made by a GM and HC are still only as good as the data they are being fed.
So maybe the new GM brings in his own scouts. And let's say, worst case, maybe there's still some input from guys named Mara. So 10 scouts say DRAFT THIS OL. And one Mara says, no, draft Comic Book Guy from Springfield, hopefully the GM and the coach weigh that accordingly. And ignore Mara.
He was mostly hitting the right notes. It was interesting when he actually used the phrase "completely blow it up". I would love to know where the epiphany came from...
Now it is indeed about executing what you said and honoring it.
Clarified they knew they had to give the GM say over who the HC was (not saddle a GM with JJ).
Seems like they knew they had to "blow it up" go OUTSIDE the building this time to fix it. Hence no mention of Abrams.
He also clarified (even when pressed) that while Chris and Tim evaluate players, they don't have ANY authority on who's drafted/acquired. That's SOLEY up to the GM and the HC.
I didn't hear anything in this presser that sound like obvious lies or BS.
It seems that BBI got a lot of their assumptions wrong.
Let's just hope he gets it right this time.
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He seemed dead-up honest and remarkably humble about his failings over the last bunch of years.
Clarified they knew they had to give the GM say over who the HC was (not saddle a GM with JJ).
Seems like they knew they had to "blow it up" go OUTSIDE the building this time to fix it. Hence no mention of Abrams.
He also clarified (even when pressed) that while Chris and Tim evaluate players, they don't have ANY authority on who's drafted/acquired. That's SOLEY up to the GM and the HC.
I didn't hear anything in this presser that sound like obvious lies or BS.
It seems that BBI got a lot of their assumptions wrong.
Let's just hope he gets it right this time.
Wrong.
If I posted John Mara's pressers from January 2016, January 2018, and January 2020, you would have a hard time telling them apart from this one.
If if Chris Mara doesn't have influence, why does he have such a lofty (VP of personnel) title?
Don't automatically assume what you are being told is the the truth.
Outside the building for a GM and not using past Giants connection as a reason to speak with them and not to force Joe Judge on a new GM.
The one question I am curious about is what Mara said about player selection- the GM and Coach decide unless it is a split decision then Mara chimes in OR there is an off the field issue with a player.. if that is true, I am curious if Micah Parsons was a target who was removed from consideration for off the field rumors..
He did say he'll speak up over character issues.
What's certainly clear is he said that he isn't proffering draft or personnel choices, as much as he approves or denies recommendations, and if coach and GM are in agreement it's a rubber stamp process unless he has character concerns.
We'll see.
The big issue I see but maybe I am seeing it wrong but the HC and GM have equal value in the draft process. The problem is I am not sure that happens with great consistency. So you probably need a great tandem working together that can compromise, otherwise it seems rather vague if they are in disagreement and how that plays out and is rectified. Mara said the HC and GM have always made the personnel decisions around here.
Going back to Gilbride's comment after he was asked about Pugh kind of resonate here. Gilbride said they had been telling the front office we need to get some OL in here for a couple years. This was 2013. Something is not adding up here. I leaning towards more chefs than stated. I mention this because OL still is a issue today.
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Wrong.
If I posted John Mara's pressers from January 2016, January 2018, and January 2020, you would have a hard time telling them apart from this one.
If if Chris Mara doesn't have influence, why does he have such a lofty (VP of personnel) title?
Don't automatically assume what you are being told is the the truth.
Did I say that? Let's say you're right and that the stuff about Chris and Tim are lies.
What else in the press conference was?
For MONTHS, the mantra has been it's gonna be Abrams and Judge. YOU thought that, Eric. For most of that time, I agreed with you.
But it doesn't appear to be playing out that way. Thankfully.
And FWIW, TO ME he seemed a bit more humbled and culpable than he did in 16, 18, and 20. YMMV
He called it the lowest point in his tenure. I don't recall hearing that before.
"Does Mara decide or does he get Chris involved?"
He didn't say. Taken EXACTLY as he said it, and by what HAS to be implied, if he is taken verbatim, Then , unless there IS a consensus, then there is NO approach to him for a decision. That is to say, unless there is agreement between coach and GM, then the proposal is stillborn.
"Don't come to me to approve a signing or pick unless you are in agreement," forcing them to come to a consensus, seems to be the only way to take it. Ultimately that forces a give and take between GM and HC. Or do you favor a setup where the GM can choose as he wants without regard the the HC, or vice versa for that matter.
Or does that not fit into the group think.
Maybe he just hired the wrong GM and HC ? We love to kill DG but at the same time seem to have developed this invisible and evil entity that ruins everything in its path. Are we really sure that’s what did this franchise in the last 10 years?
I mean Mara says a bunch of Innocuous shit today and as usual there are 10000 comments ripping him to shreds. What’s the point.
This part was confusing about interest in the GM and the number of candidates:
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All I can tell you is based on the number of inquiries that I have had from prospective candidates; we’re not going to be able to interview even 20 percent of all of them.
Does that make sense? Let's say 40 people are interested. I'm guessing that's a really high number...? We couldn't interview 8 of them? I didn't like the answer. Interview EVERY person who you think is possibly good. That's the only way to find the best candidates.
To get on him for meddling or intervening? There’s zero data or evidence to prove any of that talk. And really if anything there’s evidence to support the claims that Mara does in fact stay out of the way. What evidence you ask? Basically go look at interviews or former front office execs from nyg or former coaches. They all say the same shit that Mara is basically harmless and they loved working here.
So we have REAL evidence or proof that Mara doesn’t interfere at all and nothing more than anecdotal evidence or rumor that Mara does meddle, and honestly I’m not sure I’ve even seen even that.
Mara hired the wrong people. Maybe he forced or heavily influenced a few poor personnel moves. Maybe he told DG to win with Eli, but we have never ever ever heard any proof of this.
Maybe the guys Mara hired just fucking sucked and if anything, Mara simply stuck with them for too long. Indictable to be sure, but some very popular posters here and elsewhere on Twitter have propagated this belief that Mara has somehow morphed into an east coast jerry jones. When the fuck did THAT happen?
Funny how that works in both the sports world and real one.
The problem isn't that Chris Mara is a Senior VP. Make him Senior VP, Chief Cook & Bottle Washer. Anything but Senior VP of Player Personnel.
According to the linked org chart, Chris Mara has 16 people reporting to him, including:
Ken Sternfeld, Director of Pro Personnel
Mark Koncz, Director of Player Personnel
Chris Pettit, Director of College Scouting
Jeremiah Davis, Executive Scout
Ed Triggs, Director of Football Operations
Kevin Abrams, VP of Football Operations & Assistant GMs
Now:
1) This "unofficial org chart" might be wrong or
2) The org chart is in flux / incomplete given there is currently no GM or HC
Still, all the people listed as reporting to Chris Mara should be reporting to the GM IMHO.
IF this is the Giants structure, this is a problem and may cause some top GM candidates to decline if the structure isn't changed.
Supposedly The Giants Org Chart (No GM Or HC Currently Shown) - ( New Window )
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If they don't fix the structural problems, you won't have to worry about the whining. The fan base will become apathetic and disappear.
Oh ok. I thought it was hiring of GM and HC at the same time and the “half measures” that was the issue? I guess that isn’t the issue anymore?
Now the issue is solely Chris Mara? Got it.
No. The issue is that scouting and identifying talent — both Pro and College — has sucked for 10+ years and owner family members are entrenched at the top tier of that portion of the Org chart. Could it be their lousy input that is screwing up the player grades that the GM needs to use? Do they protect poor scouts who are their longtime buddies? Who evaluates their scouting success or failure and who can fire them or push them aside if they are demonstrably bad? This is a huge issue moving forward and worth “obsessing about.”
But I’m glad you and a few others keep posting under the same accounts, because, yeah, it’s obvious.
I thought Mr Mara was very honest. I’ve never thought he wanted anything but what’s best for the Giants. I know the Pepsi thing was nuts and he’s missed with personnel decisions. But it’s hard to hire good people. And the lifecycle of a GM is a couple of coaches and four years. So, Getty was horrible but I do understand the thinking behind all these poor decisions.
Think about Judge. I was impressed by his first presser and he had good references. I mean - he fooled a lot of us. I’ve hired a lot of people in my career and they don’t all work out. It’s hard to hire good people.
About the family. I think some of us are being very unrealistic about human nature. If I owned the Giants, I’d be more than happy to be involved. Um, that’s probably why I’d have bought the team. Are there any teams, aside from the Packers, where the owners aren’t involved in football operations? Any? Like, that’s why you own a team - to be involved. And, it’s not like someone is going to be successful just because they aren’t related to the owner.
Anyway, I think the whole nepotism and family thing is a bit oversold and entirely normal in all kinds of business. I work for a family business. And yeah, the family gets special consideration. That’s just the way the world works.
Anyway, it’s the reset that many of us wanted. I was glad to hear that the top GM candidates all have jobs in the league because that leaves out a couple names that have been out there. Let’s hope we get a great GM who gets a great coach and let’s hope they find a legit franchise quarterback in the draft or in Seattle.
Let’s go Big Blue! Build back the pride!
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"... somebody who will oversee aspects of our football operations, including player personnel, college scouting and coaching."
I'd rather John Mara have said
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"[General Manager]... somebody who will be responsible for and have final decision making authority over all of our football operations, including player personnel, college scouting and coaching."
Do you really think anyone is going to give you unflattering information on your nephew. Anyone talking to you about him is OF COURSE going to say nice things. "Oh yeah that Tim, he is a real idiot, I DO NOT respect him" Come on John. Get a grip there. And the last throw in, "he doesn't have any authority here" come on, he is the most respected voice and has a direct familial line to the people in charge and you think you can just throw in "he doesn't have any authority." What a crock of shit. You could also just say he has experience, the whole earning your stripes thing. As someone pointed out with Chris. Seriously doubt he lived the life of a scout when he started.
Does that make sense? Let's say 40 people are interested. I'm guessing that's a really high number...? We couldn't interview 8 of them? I didn't like the answer. Interview EVERY person who you think is possibly good. That's the only way to find the best candidates.
Is it possible 80% they don't consider serious candidates out of the gate? Just because a man solicits consideration doesn't mean he deserves an interview.
I didn't think of it that way. Maybe you are right.
I heard it as if Mara didn't think he had the time.
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In comment 15549773 Jimmy Googs said:
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hart (No GM Or HC Currently Shown) - ( New Window )
Train - stop looking at the org chart. This is what John Mara said the GM role is in charge of...
somebody who will oversee all aspects of our football operations, including player personnel, college scouting and coaching."
"Oversee" doesn't mean spit. Is the GM going to have the authority to hire/fire? Doesn't Chris currently have the role of overseeing personnel? And according to ownership he just hangs out at his desk and doesn't make any decisions.
Does overseeing include the ability to tell Chris "I appreciate your POV and input, but that's not how we're going to do it"?
The issue arise on draft day, really, and nowhere else.
What happens when GM wants this guy, HCC wants that guy, scout have their candidate they feel strongly about and it isn't a guy either HC or GM want. Does GM have final say? or Mara? If it's Mara, you can expect it's possible his brother offered his opinion, or that John asked him for it.
The functioal problem with this is, and I think this is where the genesis of the supposed dysfunction arises as that it one ccase the GM gets his way, the coach is pissed. another time the HC gets his way and the GM feels undermined, and they both vye for the ear of chris mara who , obviously, speaks to his brother. It is THIS matter that needs structural resolution and clarity above all else. THIS is the real issue. Not so much Chris mara meddling or incompetent. It justs works out this way under this structure. it maifests itself in different forms in other organizations. There is no real clean answer, because any answer involves it's own inherent weaknesses and tradeoffs.
It's a hard sell to say bring the organization into the 21st century, and then eschew " collaboration" or "consensus" when it comes to personell.. we use those very terms to define modernity in the workign environment.
Should it all be on the GM and fuck what his HC or owner think, or say thy need, or can afford? Or should the HC be able to tell the GM and owner who to sign and who not to? If so, why? There are arguments to be made either way. The current setup needs an enema, I can see what they were trying to do though. They need to clean up either chris Maras role or his title, or his duties. Title is the easiest route, honestly.
get the real leaders right (GM/HC) and the rest doesn't matter.
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In comment 15549773 Jimmy Googs said:
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hart (No GM Or HC Currently Shown) - ( New Window )
Train - stop looking at the org chart. This is what John Mara said the GM role is in charge of...
somebody who will oversee all aspects of our football operations, including player personnel, college scouting and coaching."
"Oversee" doesn't mean spit. Is the GM going to have the authority to hire/fire? Doesn't Chris currently have the role of overseeing personnel? And according to ownership he just hangs out at his desk and doesn't make any decisions.
Does overseeing include the ability to tell Chris "I appreciate your POV and input, but that's not how we're going to do it"?