is all that bad during these annual pressers (unlike the DG disasters) and comes off as wanting more as an owner and a fan from the people he has trusted to operate the front office, and coach and play the game on the field.
* Fired his bad hire in Gettleman
* Fired a coach that allowed things to go off the deep end
* Running a broader GM search this time with all outsiders
* Abrams isn't being considered
* Said that new GM will run process to hire the next coach
* Said that new GM will decide fate of some key existing players
* Described what the new GM is in charge of and what roles he, Steve and Chris respectively play in the org
What the hell else could you people want? This is like manna from heaven for fans to get this broken franchise fixed.
Hopefully the GM pick is a good one and let's go from there...
I know we have become a joke. The decline is real and fans are right to be angry. I do think things have changed between now and at the inception of the Gettleman era and I think ownership is aware of the mistakes they made that got them here.
It may sound like the same clueless owner speaking to many of you and that's fine, but to me there is an acknowledgement that the decisions need to be better, including the most important one of all, the GM. At the beginning of the DG era the Giants were still confident they had a pretty good handle on things based on the previous SB success and felt like grabbing DG was smart.
I think it's become clear they can't count on dirty laundry being taken out by the hired help anymore. I think it's clear to ownership here will be scrutiny and criticism over personell choices and casually inserting their 2 cents isn't going to fly, and if they do they can't count on deniability or a lack of accountability. This being the new reality, in theory, you'd think they'd save their influence for when it actually mattered or is needed, which, if you get the GM hire right, would be rarely, moreso than Mara would have us believe is the case now. They definitely have structural issues that need to be adressed, including ownerships'.
The big issue I see but maybe I am seeing it wrong but the HC and GM have equal value in the draft process. The problem is I am not sure that happens with great consistency. So you probably need a great tandem working together that can compromise, otherwise it seems rather vague if they are in disagreement and how that plays out and is rectified. Mara said the HC and GM have always made the personnel decisions around here.
If they don't fix the structural problems, you won't have to worry about the whining. The fan base will become apathetic and disappear.
Oh ok. I thought it was hiring of GM and HC at the same time and the “half measures” that was the issue? I guess that isn’t the issue anymore?
Now the issue is solely Chris Mara? Got it.
No. The issue is that scouting and identifying talent — both Pro and College — has sucked for 10+ years and owner family members are entrenched at the top tier of that portion of the Org chart. Could it be their lousy input that is screwing up the player grades that the GM needs to use? Do they protect poor scouts who are their longtime buddies? Who evaluates their scouting success or failure and who can fire them or push them aside if they are demonstrably bad? This is a huge issue moving forward and worth “obsessing about.”
But I’m glad you and a few others keep posting under the same accounts, because, yeah, it’s obvious.
Valid concerns.
If there was a question worth asking about ‘Chris and Tim’…
yes, that's what he said. No other way to interpret it when he said the GM and HC makes the personell choices, then come to him to sign off.Besides that, i think that was asked and answered directly during that conference, he said Chris isn't making selections.
I've addressed this before. No, Chris isn't making selections, but he's in charge of the evaluations that get passed on to the guy(s) who do make the selections.
Where did Mara say that his brother is in charge of the evaluations that do get passed along to those making the drafting decisions.
I read his answer to the question as his brother's evaluations do into the hopper with all of the other evaluations that are reviewed by those making the decisions.
Also, have you seen any evidence that his brother changed any drafting decision that a GM or a HC wanted to make? Or even that he influenced anyone to change any decision about whom to draft? If there is, I've not seen it on any of the threads that have dealt with Chris Mara's role.
year despite several reorganizations of its operating procedures.
And suppose that those reorganizations were based on the decisions made by the CEO, CFO, upper management, and the corporation's internal auditors. What should that corporation do to turn its business around?
Ask the shareholders what to do? No.
Ask the folks at the Wall Street Journal what to do? No.
Start the reorganization process from scratch all over again? NO!
IMHO the corporation hires an independent outside expert, or outside firm to come in and evaluate what is going on and what should be done about it. It is an expensive and time consuming process, but IMHO it is the way to go.
My comment should have read "go" in to the hopper, not "do" into the hopper.
We/I have no clue how the Giants come up with their grade on players. But assuming it’s a collective rubric that’s averaged, it could be problematic like this: for arguments sake, let’s say CM or TM is a lousy evaluator. He gives player X (TJ Watt / MParsons) a grade of 4 out of 10, but four others each grade as a 10. The player gets an 8.8 and maybe that’s enough to rank him as a low end of round 1 as opposed to a high 1 and we pass. And then if that consistently happens, who’s going to call him out? A non-owner with a clear reporting structure could get demoted or fired.
This is all wild speculation, but still a very plausible problem that the known Org structure presents. And no one from the Giants has clarified or explained how it doesn’t happen. What we also know is that something has been broken with our player evaluations for a long time.
It's fair to say we've heard this before from Mara
One thing I'll say is that for the first time time since '78 when we hired Young and Perkins we're hiring a GM and Coach from outside the building. There is no way that they're hiring a GM to come in here and not let him bring some of his people in the talent evaluation and scouting depts. So there's no guarantees of success, but this is not a repeat of 2017. There's gonna be new voices in the room.
That presser dismissed a lot of the narrative about him that has been stated pretty much as fact around here for a while.
Everyone will continue to draw their own conclusions, but Mara satisfied me today, that it has been some bad hires that has led to this mess.
That s a hopeful message, as getting this one correct, as his dad did with Coughlin, can soon return this franchise to competitive winning football.
Again, you post here is exactly what was written by BBI'ers after Mara's presser in Jan 2016, Jan 2018, and Jan 2020. He made all of us "feel good."
I don’t see your pt. My optimism is based on the belief that past failure has been the result of poor hires, that could change, they could get it right this time.
The narrative around here has been the Giants will never win under Mara because he s a meddling clown.
I never believed that, and today made me feel even stronger that take is false
Seems like a good man. He seems to care about his employees. Unfortunately this doesn't translate to a winning organization currently.
This happens in business all the time. Take Xerox or Kodak for example... they were very very good at what they did, #1 in their field, then the market transforms from paper to digital and they miss the boat... because you are good at one thing, doesn't necessarily mean you are good at another. This is very difficult for successful companies to admit and even more difficult to pivot.
The Giants were good, they won 2 titles in 5 years, and then Coughlin got old, the players got old, the game didn't necessarily change all that much, but enough things changes where how the Giants were doing things needed to change - but it's HARD to overcome that inertia... that feeling that what they did was right and would work!
Tough spot, and I really don't think Mara get's it yet with the nepotism in the organization. It still sounds like they think 1 guy or 2 guys will change everything... when it's a enterprise wide process.
If I knew that it was Gettleman who sold the Mara's on
drafting Barkley instead of Josh Allen, who sold the Mara's on throwing money at Solder, who sold the Mara's on passing on Micah Parsons and drafting head case Toney, who sold the Mara's on trading JPP and letting Collins walk. who sold the Mara's on letting Zeitler walk, I wouldn't care that Chris Mara is in the room when these ridiculous decisions were made. But if Chris Mara and John Mara were significant contributors to these ridiculous decisions, I have no reason to think the Giants will be competitive any time in the foreseeable future.
Mara said firing gettleman early wouldn’t have given the team a head
Does he not know this passed? The meeting was less than a month ago
According to Daniel Kaplan of The Athletic, the league’s owners will vote to allow teams to conduct head coach and general manager interviews during the final two weeks of the regular season.
drafting Barkley instead of Josh Allen and his 50% completion percentage in one of college's weakest conferences, who sold the Mara's on throwing money at Solder, who sold the Mara's on passing on head case Micah Parsons and drafting head case Toney, who sold the Mara's on trading JPP and letting Collins walk, who sold the Mara's on releasing Zeitler, I wouldn't care that Chris Mara is in the room when these questionable decisions were made. But if Chris Mara and John Mara were significant contributors to these dubious decisions, I have no reason to think the Giants will be competitive any time in the foreseeable future other than that they won a couple of Super Bowls in the not too distant past.
The good news is that you recognize that you are uninformed on all these things and are therefor unqualified to have an opinion on it.
p.s.--You're complaining about letting Collins walk? That was a smart decision. Also, I hope you don't mind, I cleaned up some of your typos.
People do not need to be qualified experts to have opinions, or have all facts at their disposal. This is a fan site where people are free to give their opinions based on what they do know, plus some educated guesses.
If you don't think someone should post an opinion until they have all the facts, that would mean never expressing an opinion on any draft pick or free agent signing because we did not scout them, interview them, or talk to their teammates/coaches. We can't express opinions on contracts because we don't know the discussion, who else was offering a contract or what they were offering.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion with less than all the facts.
honest and transparent here and I appreciate that as a fan. He truthfully didn't have to hold this press conference. I think he understands what happened, admits his mistakes and will really try to get this new hire right. Fingers crossed cause whatever he does, it's not a sure thing. We'll need a lot of luck to get out of this mess.
People do not need to be qualified experts to have opinions, or have all facts at their disposal. This is a fan site where people are free to give their opinions based on what they do know, plus some educated guesses.
People can post whatever the hell they want, but what's the value of an uninformed opinion? I can give you my opinion on your height and eye color, but what is that opinion worth?
p.s.--My "educated guess" is that you're 5'10 and have brown eyes.
* Fired his bad hire in Gettleman
* Fired a coach that allowed things to go off the deep end
* Running a broader GM search this time with all outsiders
* Abrams isn't being considered
* Said that new GM will run process to hire the next coach
* Said that new GM will decide fate of some key existing players
* Described what the new GM is in charge of and what roles he, Steve and Chris respectively play in the org
What the hell else could you people want? This is like manna from heaven for fans to get this broken franchise fixed.
Hopefully the GM pick is a good one and let's go from there...
It may sound like the same clueless owner speaking to many of you and that's fine, but to me there is an acknowledgement that the decisions need to be better, including the most important one of all, the GM. At the beginning of the DG era the Giants were still confident they had a pretty good handle on things based on the previous SB success and felt like grabbing DG was smart.
I think it's become clear they can't count on dirty laundry being taken out by the hired help anymore. I think it's clear to ownership here will be scrutiny and criticism over personell choices and casually inserting their 2 cents isn't going to fly, and if they do they can't count on deniability or a lack of accountability. This being the new reality, in theory, you'd think they'd save their influence for when it actually mattered or is needed, which, if you get the GM hire right, would be rarely, moreso than Mara would have us believe is the case now. They definitely have structural issues that need to be adressed, including ownerships'.
The big issue I see but maybe I am seeing it wrong but the HC and GM have equal value in the draft process. The problem is I am not sure that happens with great consistency. So you probably need a great tandem working together that can compromise, otherwise it seems rather vague if they are in disagreement and how that plays out and is rectified. Mara said the HC and GM have always made the personnel decisions around here.
Quote:
In comment 15549752 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
If they don't fix the structural problems, you won't have to worry about the whining. The fan base will become apathetic and disappear.
Oh ok. I thought it was hiring of GM and HC at the same time and the “half measures” that was the issue? I guess that isn’t the issue anymore?
Now the issue is solely Chris Mara? Got it.
No. The issue is that scouting and identifying talent — both Pro and College — has sucked for 10+ years and owner family members are entrenched at the top tier of that portion of the Org chart. Could it be their lousy input that is screwing up the player grades that the GM needs to use? Do they protect poor scouts who are their longtime buddies? Who evaluates their scouting success or failure and who can fire them or push them aside if they are demonstrably bad? This is a huge issue moving forward and worth “obsessing about.”
But I’m glad you and a few others keep posting under the same accounts, because, yeah, it’s obvious.
yes, that's what he said. No other way to interpret it when he said the GM and HC makes the personell choices, then come to him to sign off.Besides that, i think that was asked and answered directly during that conference, he said Chris isn't making selections.
I've addressed this before. No, Chris isn't making selections, but he's in charge of the evaluations that get passed on to the guy(s) who do make the selections.
I read his answer to the question as his brother's evaluations do into the hopper with all of the other evaluations that are reviewed by those making the decisions.
Also, have you seen any evidence that his brother changed any drafting decision that a GM or a HC wanted to make? Or even that he influenced anyone to change any decision about whom to draft? If there is, I've not seen it on any of the threads that have dealt with Chris Mara's role.
And suppose that those reorganizations were based on the decisions made by the CEO, CFO, upper management, and the corporation's internal auditors. What should that corporation do to turn its business around?
Ask the shareholders what to do? No.
Ask the folks at the Wall Street Journal what to do? No.
Start the reorganization process from scratch all over again? NO!
IMHO the corporation hires an independent outside expert, or outside firm to come in and evaluate what is going on and what should be done about it. It is an expensive and time consuming process, but IMHO it is the way to go.
We/I have no clue how the Giants come up with their grade on players. But assuming it’s a collective rubric that’s averaged, it could be problematic like this: for arguments sake, let’s say CM or TM is a lousy evaluator. He gives player X (TJ Watt / MParsons) a grade of 4 out of 10, but four others each grade as a 10. The player gets an 8.8 and maybe that’s enough to rank him as a low end of round 1 as opposed to a high 1 and we pass. And then if that consistently happens, who’s going to call him out? A non-owner with a clear reporting structure could get demoted or fired.
This is all wild speculation, but still a very plausible problem that the known Org structure presents. And no one from the Giants has clarified or explained how it doesn’t happen. What we also know is that something has been broken with our player evaluations for a long time.
Quote:
Which I don’t
That presser dismissed a lot of the narrative about him that has been stated pretty much as fact around here for a while.
Everyone will continue to draw their own conclusions, but Mara satisfied me today, that it has been some bad hires that has led to this mess.
That s a hopeful message, as getting this one correct, as his dad did with Coughlin, can soon return this franchise to competitive winning football.
Again, you post here is exactly what was written by BBI'ers after Mara's presser in Jan 2016, Jan 2018, and Jan 2020. He made all of us "feel good."
I don’t see your pt. My optimism is based on the belief that past failure has been the result of poor hires, that could change, they could get it right this time.
The narrative around here has been the Giants will never win under Mara because he s a meddling clown.
I never believed that, and today made me feel even stronger that take is false
Quote:
Which I don’t
That presser dismissed a lot of the narrative about him that has been stated pretty much as fact around here for a while.
Everyone will continue to draw their own conclusions, but Mara satisfied me today, that it has been some bad hires that has led to this mess.
That s a hopeful message, as getting this one correct, as his dad did with Coughlin, can soon return this franchise to competitive winning football.
John is an attorney, right? I'd bet he knows the difference between lying and not telling the whole truth.
BINGO
So who's driving this buggy? Certainly not Chris Mara - ( New Window )
This happens in business all the time. Take Xerox or Kodak for example... they were very very good at what they did, #1 in their field, then the market transforms from paper to digital and they miss the boat... because you are good at one thing, doesn't necessarily mean you are good at another. This is very difficult for successful companies to admit and even more difficult to pivot.
The Giants were good, they won 2 titles in 5 years, and then Coughlin got old, the players got old, the game didn't necessarily change all that much, but enough things changes where how the Giants were doing things needed to change - but it's HARD to overcome that inertia... that feeling that what they did was right and would work!
Tough spot, and I really don't think Mara get's it yet with the nepotism in the organization. It still sounds like they think 1 guy or 2 guys will change everything... when it's a enterprise wide process.
Does he not know this passed? The meeting was less than a month ago
According to Daniel Kaplan of The Athletic, the league’s owners will vote to allow teams to conduct head coach and general manager interviews during the final two weeks of the regular season.
Link - ( New Window )
p.s.--You're complaining about letting Collins walk? That was a smart decision. Also, I hope you don't mind, I cleaned up some of your typos.
If you don't think someone should post an opinion until they have all the facts, that would mean never expressing an opinion on any draft pick or free agent signing because we did not scout them, interview them, or talk to their teammates/coaches. We can't express opinions on contracts because we don't know the discussion, who else was offering a contract or what they were offering.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion with less than all the facts.
p.s.--My "educated guess" is that you're 5'10 and have brown eyes.