is both absurd and really tiresome. Does someone have any information on what decisions he's made, what player(s) he demanded be signed or drafted? If he has pressured scouts to upgrade or downgrade a player evaluation? We get it, a lot of fans don't like the fact he has a job in the organization. It's not ideal and it may be a distraction. But the constant, carping about what he does or doesn't do is silly, unsubstantiated bushwa. Is Chris Mara responsible for the sorry state of the franchise? Did he make the decision to sign Glenn instead of McCoy? Did he destroy the O-line? If so, let's see the receipts. If, not please give it a rest.
He is also a co owner.
Resign his position as Senior Vice President of Player Personnel. Or remove him from that post.
If you don't want fans bitching about his role in team personnel decisions, then maybe it's not a great idea to give him a title that suggests he has immense influence.
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on day to day operations, but he's meeting with the new GM, what are fans supposed to say?
He is also a co owner.
So are about 50 other Maras.
Yes based on today...
* he writes a few scouting reports on some college players and loads it into the player database they maintain;
* he gets to fly to the draft and sit in the war room;
* he is in-charge of logging onto the Zoom call for the GM candidate interviews
Did I miss anything?
Nope. The Venn Diagram of people who are outraged that Chris Mara is taking notes in these GM interviews, people who would be outraged if Mara/Tisch were the only ones in the room, and people who would be outraged if they promoted from within, and people who would be outraged if they hired a consultant to feed them candidates, is a perfect circle.
When the new GM and HC are hired, I hope Chris Mara introduces them both at the introductory press with John Mara not even in the building. So that the resulting collective stroke in the fanbase might cause the aggregate sanity quotient to tick back up a few points.
Having Mara family members have "beyond ownership roles" is problematic. Is it so hard to see that?
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one easy step to make this all go away. One step.
Nope. The Venn Diagram of people who are outraged that Chris Mara is taking notes in these GM interviews, people who would be outraged if Mara/Tisch were the only ones in the room, and people who would be outraged if they promoted from within, and people who would be outraged if they hired a consultant to feed them candidates, is a perfect circle.
When the new GM and HC are hired, I hope Chris Mara introduces them both at the introductory press with John Mara not even in the building. So that the resulting collective stroke in the fanbase might cause the aggregate sanity quotient to tick back up a few points.
Yeah. Ok. Keep wearing this rose colored glasses.
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...the step?
Resign his position as Senior Vice President of Player Personnel. Or remove him from that post.
If you don't want fans bitching about his role in team personnel decisions, then maybe it's not a great idea to give him a title that suggests he has immense influence.
Then maybe fans should hire the coaches and run the draft, too.
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In comment 15550150 Brown_Hornet said:
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...the step?
Resign his position as Senior Vice President of Player Personnel. Or remove him from that post.
If you don't want fans bitching about his role in team personnel decisions, then maybe it's not a great idea to give him a title that suggests he has immense influence.
Then maybe fans should hire the coaches and run the draft, too.
Or here’s a thought, maybe hire people who aren’t inept family members? But no, no. That’s ridiculous.
Having Mara family members have "beyond ownership roles" is problematic. Is it so hard to see that?
I honestly believe most of these people vociferously defending Chris Mara are either members of the Giants organization or recipients of nepotism in their offline life and feel personally attacked.
By that reasoning Tisch should not have a title either. He never does anything except agree with John on coaches and GMs, then goes and bangs his GF.
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I have seen it run the gamut.
Yes based on today...
* he writes a few scouting reports on some college players and loads it into the player database they maintain;
* he gets to fly to the draft and sit in the war room;
* he is in-charge of logging onto the Zoom call for the GM candidate interviews
Did I miss anything?
Wow. I don't really keep a book on every poster here as some do, but color me surprised nonetheless that you would just take anything that John Mara says at face value. I've always seen you as more of a skeptic. Maybe you haven't come down from the UGA high :)
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for the apparent deep seated organizational problems the Giants have had the last ten years. There have been some very questionable draft and free agency decisions since Chris Mara has had the Senior VP of Player Personnel role. You have to believe he has at least some "thumb on the scale" influence; how much we'll never know. He is one constant over 4 Head Coaches and 2 General Managers. Is he 100% the problem? No. Is he likely at least a small issue and potentially a large issue? Yes.
Having Mara family members have "beyond ownership roles" is problematic. Is it so hard to see that?
I honestly believe most of these people vociferously defending Chris Mara are either members of the Giants organization or recipients of nepotism in their offline life and feel personally attacked.
WTF?
He has a role in player evaluation and his is an ownership voice so it is going to be heavily influential.
And there is no evidence that he's good about it.
More likely than not, he is a significant part of the problem, and as fans we all just want our team to be good.
He seems to be exactly what needs to be spoken about.
This explains it perfectly - ( New Window )
Having Mara family members have "beyond ownership roles" is problematic. Is it so hard to see that?
So I guess Gettleman is off the hook. Btw, was Chris Mara dialed into Judge's headset demanding the QB sneak play calls as well?
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When would you say this started going downhill? Now look up when he was promoted to his current position. As Eric said, maybe he is to blame or maybe he isn't but he shouldn't be in his position.
By that reasoning Tisch should not have a title either. He never does anything except agree with John on coaches and GMs, then goes and bangs his GF.
Ridiculous comparison. Tisch actually owns a stake in the team. Chris Mara does not, other than the silver fucking spoon he has ‘earned’ by the genetic lottery. You see any Tisch’s working in the front office? Nope.
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When would you say this started going downhill? Now look up when he was promoted to his current position. As Eric said, maybe he is to blame or maybe he isn't but he shouldn't be in his position.
By that reasoning Tisch should not have a title either. He never does anything except agree with John on coaches and GMs, then goes and bangs his GF.
Dude, what are you talking about?
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for the apparent deep seated organizational problems the Giants have had the last ten years. There have been some very questionable draft and free agency decisions since Chris Mara has had the Senior VP of Player Personnel role. You have to believe he has at least some "thumb on the scale" influence; how much we'll never know. He is one constant over 4 Head Coaches and 2 General Managers. Is he 100% the problem? No. Is he likely at least a small issue and potentially a large issue? Yes.
Having Mara family members have "beyond ownership roles" is problematic. Is it so hard to see that?
So I guess Gettleman is off the hook. Btw, was Chris Mara dialed into Judge's headset demanding the QB sneak play calls as well?
Clueless
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...the step?
Resign his position as Senior Vice President of Player Personnel. Or remove him from that post.
If you don't want fans bitching about his role in team personnel decisions, then maybe it's not a great idea to give him a title that suggests he has immense influence.
If it was my business I If it was my business...
...some things I would want to know what fans had to say and some things I would not.
Based on the amount of information the fans have about Chris They really looks silly complaining as much as they are.
Now that assumes that "they" is more than just BBI.
Or a small fraction of BBI.
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for the apparent deep seated organizational problems the Giants have had the last ten years. There have been some very questionable draft and free agency decisions since Chris Mara has had the Senior VP of Player Personnel role. You have to believe he has at least some "thumb on the scale" influence; how much we'll never know. He is one constant over 4 Head Coaches and 2 General Managers. Is he 100% the problem? No. Is he likely at least a small issue and potentially a large issue? Yes.
Having Mara family members have "beyond ownership roles" is problematic. Is it so hard to see that?
I honestly believe most of these people vociferously defending Chris Mara are either members of the Giants organization or recipients of nepotism in their offline life and feel personally attacked.
Oh wow, you got me man. I'm an under-assistant west coast promotion man for Jints Central and I got the job from my third cousin's brother-in-law... What a smug and frankly stupid comment.
you know why Jerry Reese got the nod for GM here? because he was director of player personnel from 04-07.
you know why DG got the Panthers job? because he was director of pro personnel from 99-12. both those men contributed to winning championships here. Chris Mara has not.
these are positions of meaning. these are the positions we're interviewing right now for our own GM job.
Chris was a "scout" in the 80s. then ran a scouting company i'm sure nfl teams hired as a favor to Wellington. dicked around in the AFL before coming back to ny as "Vice President of Player Evaluation" whatever the FUCK that means. we've been drafting like shit since he's been promoted. other teams don't have 3 player personnel guys like us and are better. wake up.
he has NO risk of being fired in a key position on the team.
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In comment 15550183 Trainmaster said:
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for the apparent deep seated organizational problems the Giants have had the last ten years. There have been some very questionable draft and free agency decisions since Chris Mara has had the Senior VP of Player Personnel role. You have to believe he has at least some "thumb on the scale" influence; how much we'll never know. He is one constant over 4 Head Coaches and 2 General Managers. Is he 100% the problem? No. Is he likely at least a small issue and potentially a large issue? Yes.
Having Mara family members have "beyond ownership roles" is problematic. Is it so hard to see that?
I honestly believe most of these people vociferously defending Chris Mara are either members of the Giants organization or recipients of nepotism in their offline life and feel personally attacked.
Oh wow, you got me man. I'm an under-assistant west coast promotion man for Jints Central and I got the job from my third cousin's brother-in-law... What a smug and frankly stupid comment.
LMFAO. Says the clueless moron who started this thread.
He has a voice, but not enough to royally screw shit up
DG bid against himself for KG, horrid signings like solder
totally ruined the cap in 2 yrs
hog mollies my ass
full blown love for DJ at a senior bowl practice
saquon touched by the hand of god ( he did look awesome in 2018)
JMHO
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In comment 15550180 robbieballs2003 said:
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When would you say this started going downhill? Now look up when he was promoted to his current position. As Eric said, maybe he is to blame or maybe he isn't but he shouldn't be in his position.
By that reasoning Tisch should not have a title either. He never does anything except agree with John on coaches and GMs, then goes and bangs his GF.
Ridiculous comparison. Tisch actually owns a stake in the team. Chris Mara does not, other than the silver fucking spoon he has ‘earned’ by the genetic lottery. You see any Tisch’s working in the front office? Nope.
Jonathon Tisch is treasurer of the NY Football Giants.
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In comment 15550193 section125 said:
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In comment 15550180 robbieballs2003 said:
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When would you say this started going downhill? Now look up when he was promoted to his current position. As Eric said, maybe he is to blame or maybe he isn't but he shouldn't be in his position.
By that reasoning Tisch should not have a title either. He never does anything except agree with John on coaches and GMs, then goes and bangs his GF.
Ridiculous comparison. Tisch actually owns a stake in the team. Chris Mara does not, other than the silver fucking spoon he has ‘earned’ by the genetic lottery. You see any Tisch’s working in the front office? Nope.
Jonathon Tisch is treasurer of the NY Football Giants.
And? That’s not even close to the front office operations and you know it. Sad that your thread is being shot down, I know.
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...the step?
Resign his position as Senior Vice President of Player Personnel. Or remove him from that post.
If you don't want fans bitching about his role in team personnel decisions, then maybe it's not a great idea to give him a title that suggests he has immense influence.
Seems like it would make you and some others happy, no one else cares. No one else thinks it’s a big deal. I’ve yet to talk to one person, not single one in the real world who cares what Chris Maras title or involvement is.
This is as “fake news” as it gets.
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...the step?
Resign his position as Senior Vice President of Player Personnel. Or remove him from that post.
If you don't want fans bitching about his role in team personnel decisions, then maybe it's not a great idea to give him a title that suggests he has immense influence.
So if Chris wanted to be the GM but Tisch not agreeing to it maybe John compromised and told Chris you can still be very involved but you have to carry a different title. Just a theory but I am not sure we will ever know for sure. Hopefully they start winning more soon.
Some people are desperate to not have "negativity" on the board yet poke their heads in the threads and initiate the conversations they claim to hate.
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I’ve yet to talk to one person, not single one in the real world who cares what Chris Maras title or involvement is.
This is as “fake news” as it gets.
You are posting on a fan run site dedicated to a team that has gone 22-59 over the past 5 years and 61-100 over the past 10 years and wondering why the fans are obsessed about the ownership and front office structure of that team? Seriously? Maybe the people you meet in the real world don't care b/c they are not die hard fans who punish themselves every Sunday watching this crap team.
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one easy step to make this all go away. One step.
Nope. The Venn Diagram of people who are outraged that Chris Mara is taking notes in these GM interviews, people who would be outraged if Mara/Tisch were the only ones in the room, and people who would be outraged if they promoted from within, and people who would be outraged if they hired a consultant to feed them candidates, is a perfect circle.
When the new GM and HC are hired, I hope Chris Mara introduces them both at the introductory press with John Mara not even in the building. So that the resulting collective stroke in the fanbase might cause the aggregate sanity quotient to tick back up a few points.
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In comment 15550180 robbieballs2003 said:
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When would you say this started going downhill? Now look up when he was promoted to his current position. As Eric said, maybe he is to blame or maybe he isn't but he shouldn't be in his position.
By that reasoning Tisch should not have a title either. He never does anything except agree with John on coaches and GMs, then goes and bangs his GF.
Ridiculous comparison. Tisch actually owns a stake in the team. Chris Mara does not, other than the silver fucking spoon he has ‘earned’ by the genetic lottery. You see any Tisch’s working in the front office? Nope.
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In comment 15550161 Eric from BBI said:
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I’ve yet to talk to one person, not single one in the real world who cares what Chris Maras title or involvement is.
This is as “fake news” as it gets.
You are posting on a fan run site dedicated to a team that has gone 22-59 over the past 5 years and 61-100 over the past 10 years and wondering why the fans are obsessed about the ownership and front office structure of that team? Seriously? Maybe the people you meet in the real world don't care b/c they are not die hard fans who punish themselves every Sunday watching this crap team.
At this point I don’t think you guys even know what you are complaining about anymore. Go look at any GM thread prior to yesterday. All are full of proclamations about how we are going from DG straight to Abrams and that he will be nothing more than Maras errand boy. The GM search is a ruse, just so Mara can make sure we are all faked out. Well, the complete opposite happened. So now it’s on to Chris mara and his title.
And no, plenty of people I know are die hards, they don’t care about message boards or social media.
A little thought experiment: You apply for a high level job and you’re pretty familiar with the owners. You get the interview and they give you 3 names.
You take a quick look just to confirm. One is CEO/President, one is Chairman/EVP, one is SVP over a department that sounds an awful like what you do.
You then hear through the grapevine the SVP who will be at the interview and who is an owner “has no authority and won’t be making the decisions.”
This is weird, no?
I hoped he would have intervene drafting D.Baker
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In comment 15550193 section125 said:
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In comment 15550180 robbieballs2003 said:
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When would you say this started going downhill? Now look up when he was promoted to his current position. As Eric said, maybe he is to blame or maybe he isn't but he shouldn't be in his position.
By that reasoning Tisch should not have a title either. He never does anything except agree with John on coaches and GMs, then goes and bangs his GF.
Ridiculous comparison. Tisch actually owns a stake in the team. Chris Mara does not, other than the silver fucking spoon he has ‘earned’ by the genetic lottery. You see any Tisch’s working in the front office? Nope.
So, wow, wrong on both counts. He's an OWNER, and there are at least 2 Tisches working in the office, including the fucking treasurer.
Nobody cares about the Treasurer. People care about the guys picking the crappy players.
his exact words were that chris mara PARTICIPATES IN THE DRAFT
At this point I don’t think you guys even know what you are complaining about anymore. Go look at any GM thread prior to yesterday. All are full of proclamations about how we are going from DG straight to Abrams and that he will be nothing more than Maras errand boy. The GM search is a ruse, just so Mara can make sure we are all faked out. Well, the complete opposite happened. So now it’s on to Chris mara and his title.
And no, plenty of people I know are die hards, they don’t care about message boards or social media.
I'm guessing you recall the fake GM search that occurred in 2017 when DG was hired. And how Mara said he was going to conduct a wide search back then...Well, that was the ruse.
So with that precedence set, it wasn't out of the realm of possibilities, until they weren't, to think Mara might keep actually keep DG or promote Abrams.
The burden was on Mara to prove otherwise. And it seems like he's finally doing something that should have been done two years ago. Four years ago. Now it's time for him to put all the words he expressed today into action.
Well done
A little thought experiment: You apply for a high level job and you’re pretty familiar with the owners. You get the interview and they give you 3 names.
You take a quick look just to confirm. One is CEO/President, one is Chairman/EVP, one is SVP over a department that sounds an awful like what you do.
You then hear through the grapevine the SVP who will be at the interview and who is an owner “has no authority and won’t be making the decisions.”
This is weird, no?
What kind of dental plan are we talking about with this new outfit? That could sway the thought process one way or another...
But I have observed you, OP, talk about the Giants the Giants ownership more than you talk about much else. So perhaps it is YOU that is obsessed.
No GM can fix this with them in the mix. Can’t you see it?
DG says, “Hey Chris what do you think?
Chris Mara says, “I know John likes so-and-so, or hates so-and-so, or would never agree with this or that…”
DG to Chris Petit, Chris do you agree?
Chris Petit, “Yeah, I have to agree with Chris Mara.”
DG, “Well then, we know what to do…”
Too many Yes-men. Horrible business model.
Until this year DG never traded down…ever…. Hmmmm.
He was given the VP title in 2011. It is not a coincidence, it is fact.
He remains, coaches, GM's come and go and we continue to stink. The one constant is Chris Mara.
I don't believe what John Mara says regarding the role Chris plays. Why would John ever admit his part owner brother is part of the problem.
It's a dysfunctional ownership group leading to a dysfunctional team.
The past 10 years of failure speak to the dysfunction.
.
Or maybe his draft recommendations on college personnel aren’t guys they have drafted and they have done well for other teams, or he has given guys red flags but they still get taken by Reese or Getts.
Maybe Chris Mara has more hits than anybody in the org for the last decade but the GMs aren’t in aligned.
The possibilities are endless...
They fired Judge. Still not good enough.
They’ve stated clearly the new GM and HC make the decisions on personnel.
Not good enough
The Maras aren’t selling the team. So if that’s the only thing that will lead some to acknowledge progress, why are you wasting your time here?
What kind of dental plan are we talking about with this new outfit? That could sway the thought process one way or another...
No dental. You need a cleaning — Chris does it. Earning his keep.
Same. And Eric hit the nail on the head. I don’t understand how people can’t see why it’s an issue if he keeps that position with a new coach/GM on the way. Especially since Chris likely has friends in various positions too. Why risk the possibility of some internal power struggle or potentially undermining the new GM? Let him have his own crew so we can finally have a well run ship.
Who’s ready for a little goose-stepping down the streets of Berlin if their preferred GM candidate doesn’t get the job?
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I have seen it run the gamut.
Yes based on today...
* he writes a few scouting reports on some college players and loads it into the player database they maintain;
* he gets to fly to the draft and sit in the war room;
* he is in-charge of logging onto the Zoom call for the GM candidate interviews
Did I miss anything?
Yep, and that report, if faulty, could be enough to spike a really good player that we then pass on during the draft.
Problem is we don’t know., and the Giants can’t say. And worse, if it is some sort of identified problem even an outside GM may not be able to address because of CMs ownership status. Owners should OWN, and GMs run the front office and scouts should scout. Any mixture is bound to create potentially unsolvable issues.
Who’s ready for a little goose-stepping down the streets of Berlin if their preferred GM candidate doesn’t get the job?
Comparing fans to Nazis? Brutal take on paying customers.
Then again you guys are so predictable — it’s a tell.
A little thought experiment: You apply for a high level job and you’re pretty familiar with the owners. You get the interview and they give you 3 names.
You take a quick look just to confirm. One is CEO/President, one is Chairman/EVP, one is SVP over a department that sounds an awful like what you do.
You then hear through the grapevine the SVP who will be at the interview and who is an owner “has no authority and won’t be making the decisions.”
This is weird, no?
It's super weird. And honestly they are so over the top in their meddling defensiveness it's super odd. Ultimately it aligns though, I think John especially is kind of a coward and knows as long as he plays down the influence it's easier to avoid the Chris should be fired conversation.
I grabbed this quote about Tim in the other thread too
This is another odd one. For me, when you talk about someone having a close relationship with the people at the top as well as apparently gobs of respect. You'd think that would get you authority? Regardless of if it's explicit or implicit. Nobody is ever like "that guy Tim, super sharp, everyone respects him, he's the future CEO of the company. That guy has no authority."
This is the kind of thing you get with a CEO that's never had to work a real job. Nobody talks like that. Who are you trying to convince of that? Look we get it, you don't want to fire your brother or your nephew but just own that instead of trying to create these weird narratives where you very ineffectively duck the topic.
I feel like going along with statements like this is like ending the press conference and calling up Chris. "Did you catch that one, whew that was close. They ALMOST figured out that you have a big impact on the decisions here"
If Chris Mara does nothing, then who does this job??? It seems like kind of an important job. Its a position that is a stepping stone to GM - many candidates we are interviewing have a job like this.
So either Mara is doing SOMETHING or he's doing nothing and we are not getting any value from what would appear to be an important position.
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In comment 15550230 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 15550161 Eric from BBI said:
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I’ve yet to talk to one person, not single one in the real world who cares what Chris Maras title or involvement is.
This is as “fake news” as it gets.
You are posting on a fan run site dedicated to a team that has gone 22-59 over the past 5 years and 61-100 over the past 10 years and wondering why the fans are obsessed about the ownership and front office structure of that team? Seriously? Maybe the people you meet in the real world don't care b/c they are not die hard fans who punish themselves every Sunday watching this crap team.
At this point I don’t think you guys even know what you are complaining about anymore. Go look at any GM thread prior to yesterday. All are full of proclamations about how we are going from DG straight to Abrams and that he will be nothing more than Maras errand boy. The GM search is a ruse, just so Mara can make sure we are all faked out. Well, the complete opposite happened. So now it’s on to Chris mara and his title.
And no, plenty of people I know are die hards, they don’t care about message boards or social media.
Are you doubting the fact that the plan was to move on to Abrams eventually? That is what they wanted to do?
What does it say that they wanted to put a non personnel guy in charge?
These are all valid questions to be asked and Mara’s incredulity at the mere mention of the issue was a bit much
x1000
Make it two for the price of one and throw in Timmy too.
This is one of those two things can be true at the same time scenarios:
1) The GM and coach needed to be fired and replaced by better talent
and
2) It’s weird and potentially disruptive the player personnel department is led by two members of the ownership family who may or may not have any say
This is one of those two things can be true at the same time scenarios:
1) The GM and coach needed to be fired and replaced by better talent
and
2) It’s weird and potentially disruptive the player personnel department is led by two members of the ownership family who may or may not have any say
Don’t forget that the guys who have no say are both extremely talented and well respected inside and outside the building.
Plus he won the 2004 Unsung Hero Award as the player who supported the team spiritually, emotionally and physically for the good of the team.
They fired Judge. Still not good enough.
They’ve stated clearly the new GM and HC make the decisions on personnel.
Not good enough
The Maras aren’t selling the team. So if that’s the only thing that will lead some to acknowledge progress, why are you wasting your time here?
...thread killer!
But I have observed you, OP, talk about the Giants the Giants ownership more than you talk about much else. So perhaps it is YOU that is obsessed.
Don't think this is accurate but whatever.
The burden is on those who say he should keep his job. Any other organization the director of personnel would be out. Why should it be different here?
If Chris Mara does nothing, then who does this job??? It seems like kind of an important job. Its a position that is a stepping stone to GM - many candidates we are interviewing have a job like this.
So either Mara is doing SOMETHING or he's doing nothing and we are not getting any value from what would appear to be an important position.
This is the point I’ve made in the past. There’s no positive way to spin this. Either he sucks at his job and influences decisions with his shitty evals (my opinion) or he just has a title and cashes checks, effectively eliminating the role from adding value to the organization.
When the Giants start drafting as well as those organizations, Chris Mara can appoint the family dog to an executive role with the Giants.
I'm sorry but if you buy this you're pathetic. If you think this is a non story you're fooling yourself.
Those are fair points. But, as you know, those organizations have won more lately. Which dims the light.
Plus, for Dallas, it's fairly well acknowledged that Will McClay is the Oracle of that draft room.
- be effective in navigating the very delicate balance between owner and subordinate
- be a small negative that is overcome by good talent/processes around them
To be fair Chris could be those things too. None of us are there. But his promotion coincided exactly with a massive downgrade in talent acquisition and complete failure of the team on the field.
There are so many signs that point to this being bad from so many different angles. There are literally no signs of it being good. Why are some people so enthusiastic to give these guys the benefit of the doubt??
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one easy step to make this all go away. One step.
Nope. The Venn Diagram of people who are outraged that Chris Mara is taking notes in these GM interviews, people who would be outraged if Mara/Tisch were the only ones in the room, and people who would be outraged if they promoted from within, and people who would be outraged if they hired a consultant to feed them candidates, is a perfect circle.
When the new GM and HC are hired, I hope Chris Mara introduces them both at the introductory press with John Mara not even in the building. So that the resulting collective stroke in the fanbase might cause the aggregate sanity quotient to tick back up a few points.
Ha ha ha. Brother that is the best post of the day!
When things start going wrong (oh my - have they gone wrong) and organizations start preachin about how they've hit rock bottom and they're gonna clean house, they're gonna get all right people in the right spots and they keep those family and friends that are loose cogs in the wheel...well...then nothing is going to change.
You mean he did not have a say in these things? At this point though it looks like he has to have learned something by now and looks to be doing the right things; interviewing GMs and firing Judge. When they trade Jones and / or barkley then I know they are for real.
You mean he did not have a say in these things? At this point though it looks like he has to have learned something by now and looks to be doing the right things; interviewing GMs and firing Judge. When they trade Jones and / or barkley then I know they are for real.
Of course he did.
There was literally zero difference between the end of Reece's tenure and DG's tenure as GM when it comes to evaluating college and professional talent. Nor was there any difference between the end of McAdoo, Shurmer and Judge tenures as HC.
You tell me what the common denominator is since it's not the GM and/or coaches.
Bradshaw played for the Colts for 3 seasons and his production didn't fall off until his last year. And Jacobs was always just jacobs. The 2 of them together is what made them very effective. It didn't show up on a stat sheet as they were ranked like 30th in the NFL rushing, but they brought an attitude to this team that really helped this team win big games.
OK Whatever. Maybe not the best examples but, I think the point is made that they either replaced players or needed to replace players and Mara was most certainly involved in this process that really laid this team low back then. His subsequent coaching hires and drafts were not helpful.
Eric has said in the past that be doesn't think Chris Mara is a problem and even he realizes it would just be easier to take the title away.
Correlation isn't causation but the timeline is when Mara took over as Sr VP, our team entered the Dark Ages
Eric has said in the past that be doesn't think Chris Mara is a problem and even he realizes it would just be easier to take the title away.
Correlation isn't causation but the timeline is when Mara took over as Sr VP, our team entered the Dark Ages
I actually don't think i'm defending Chris Mara. I'm simply wondering how everyone is so sure he's the mastermind behind all of our losing. I typically try not to make assumptions in life and if I do, I try not to vehemently state them and disallow all opposing views.
The Giants just got rid of the 2 biggest culprits - the guy picking the talent and the guy coaching it. That likely took care of the majority of the problem. The rest we have no idea and area also not even allowing for the possibility of learning from mistake, like John Mara just displayed that he's doing.
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If he is good at his job, it sure didnt reflect on the field.
Eric has said in the past that be doesn't think Chris Mara is a problem and even he realizes it would just be easier to take the title away.
Correlation isn't causation but the timeline is when Mara took over as Sr VP, our team entered the Dark Ages
I actually don't think i'm defending Chris Mara. I'm simply wondering how everyone is so sure he's the mastermind behind all of our losing. I typically try not to make assumptions in life and if I do, I try not to vehemently state them and disallow all opposing views.
The Giants just got rid of the 2 biggest culprits - the guy picking the talent and the guy coaching it. That likely took care of the majority of the problem. The rest we have no idea and area also not even allowing for the possibility of learning from mistake, like John Mara just displayed that he's doing.
Fair enough. I'll admit none of us KNOW what he does...I'd just rather have someone other than an "owner" doing it. Other teams have guys in the same position and have won Super Bowls. Let's try that out.
I admitted it was not the best example. You are choosing to go into detail about it and failing to see the forest for the trees. The forest is roster moves made by Mara in his new job that laid this team low. Not whether or not he got the Vic Cruz signing right. (He didn't anyway). I didn't like it and still feel there has not been as good running in 10 years wo the Bradshaw and Jacobs.
Meanwhile Bradshaw got hurt his first year with the Colts. The same argument you are giving as to why it was smart to move on from Bradhsaw is the one you are using to defend the Cruz extension.
Cruz was an undrafted guy that Eli made a star. His last year was Odells first. No one knows what Bradshaw could have been and no one knew he would have gotten hurt. You could have just drafted another big bruiser back and kept that thunder and lightning combo.
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don't get mad at me for that, you brought it up.
Meanwhile Bradshaw got hurt his first year with the Colts. The same argument you are giving as to why it was smart to move on from Bradhsaw is the one you are using to defend the Cruz extension.
Cruz was an undrafted guy that Eli made a star. His last year was Odells first. No one knows what Bradshaw could have been and no one knew he would have gotten hurt. You could have just drafted another big bruiser back and kept that thunder and lightning combo.
Cruz was a WR with no real real injury history. Bradshaw had constant foot and ankle issues and was a RB. Do I need to go on?
We already knew Bradshaw was injury prone, did you follow the team and his injuries?
However, I get that fans want to clean up whatever ails the Giants from a player personnel perspective. John Mara should as well and make this a very easy decision and have his brother back away here from his role/responsibilities in his SVP capacity.
Chris Mara can still interact with a new GM on his opinions with college players but it can be done in a much more subtle manner than having a formal title and place within the department. The media and fans probably wouldn't like that either but it would kill the story and fans would never know otherwise.
Just like we get stories with John Mara's meddling with things like Eli, Garret or other coaches/players.
Just say'in.
B- he sucks at his job.
B- he sucks at his job.
Yes. It's so simple and obviously true. Not sure why people can't understand this.
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A- doing nothing of real impact, which is a waste of having a SVP of PP role in the organization; OR
B- he sucks at his job.
Yes. It's so simple and obviously true. Not sure why people can't understand this.
I love how there isn’t an option C, personally. And that’s a growing theme on this thread and many others, that things are 100% black or white.
I'm sorry but if you buy this you're pathetic. If you think this is a non story you're fooling yourself.
It does, except for one thing: the franchise isn't struggling. It's making more money than the Mara's ever dreamed of. Since his pocketbook is doing fine John Mara will tolerate his brother. It's easier just to have these sob fests with the media every few years.
The real shame is that Chris Mara watches the guys he worked closely with - Gettlemen and Jusgde - get fired, and he doesn't recognize that he too should be sent packing. Extremely hypocritical of him, and that alone proves he lacks appropriate self-awareness to be successful at anything.
Again, Chris Mara doesn't have to be successful in W/L because the family evaluates the franchise in $$
so for jm to say cm has no authority is absurd
Look at the Titans and 49ers execs we are looking at. They are in the role Chris Mara has and Chris Pettit has, all while under highly successful GMs. We need more than one new voice in there and keeping Chris in that role ad infinitum is a problem. We currently have zero well respected front office types and we are looking at some young personnel guys who are cogs in well run machines. We need more of those, which is why Chris should surrender his title and just keep doing what he's doing.
so for jm to say cm has no authority is absurd
Are you kidding...you don't think they have gone against Chris' recommendations?
You make it seem like they don't even create a board with tiers. They just print off whatever college players Chris has loaded into the database and fly off to the draft.
absurd is the right sentiment...
Who said he is great?
The roster is weak because they have had a weak GM that has a weak roster building plan, weak player evaluation process, and probably has weak people in the front office that report to him.
I'll ask another way. Chris Mara has been SRVP of player personnel since 2011. That will be 3 GMs and 6 HC's in about a month. What other SRVP of player personnel would survive that kind of turnover?
Look at the Titans and 49ers execs we are looking at. They are in the role Chris Mara has and Chris Pettit has, all while under highly successful GMs. We need more than one new voice in there and keeping Chris in that role ad infinitum is a problem. We currently have zero well respected front office types and we are looking at some young personnel guys who are cogs in well run machines. We need more of those, which is why Chris should surrender his title and just keep doing what he's doing.
its as simple as that.
even the position doesn't make sense here. We essentially have 3 director or player personnel guys.
just give Chris some goofy title and move him out of the department. the nephew McConnell might have better experience than Chris! he at least worked for another program and played the game.
Koncz was a DG hire he brought from Carolina.
its ridiculous, why need 3 guys for 1 position and we're still suck at drafting and signing the right free agents.
I'll ask another way. Chris Mara has been SRVP of player personnel since 2011. That will be 3 GMs and 6 HC's in about a month. What other SRVP of player personnel would survive that kind of turnover?
maybe the kind that nobody relies upon for anything, other than his older brother on occasion...
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if cm is such a great talent evaluator why is this roster so weak?
jm said so
Who said he is great?
The roster is weak because they have had a weak GM that has a weak roster building plan, weak player evaluation process, and probably has weak people in the front office that report to him.
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when the owners brother is in the room, do you think anyone is going to contradict whatever he says?
that is not what i said JG, but if you think there is going to be robust discussion contradicting the owners brother I think you are either naive or have never been in those types of meetings
so for jm to say cm has no authority is absurd
Are you kidding...you don't think they have gone against Chris' recommendations?
You make it seem like they don't even create a board with tiers. They just print off whatever college players Chris has loaded into the database and fly off to the draft.
absurd is the right sentiment...
I'm sorry but if you buy this you're pathetic. If you think this is a non story you're fooling yourself.
X2
With that said, you are just making things up that a robust conversation is impossible to have with the Giants and their family members. And directly contradicting what John Mara even publicly said as to who the decision makers are and how differences, if any, are resolved.
I can respond to this nonsense all day long. I have said numerous times my preference would be to remove Chris from that position but not enough to care if they don't.
And until you bring something compelling to a post that Chris matters significantly and matters in a negative way, I will take the high road and continue to suggest that replacing the GM with a competent professional is what really matters here...
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In comment 15550999 UConn4523 said:
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don't get mad at me for that, you brought it up.
Meanwhile Bradshaw got hurt his first year with the Colts. The same argument you are giving as to why it was smart to move on from Bradhsaw is the one you are using to defend the Cruz extension.
Cruz was an undrafted guy that Eli made a star. His last year was Odells first. No one knows what Bradshaw could have been and no one knew he would have gotten hurt. You could have just drafted another big bruiser back and kept that thunder and lightning combo.
Cruz was a WR with no real real injury history. Bradshaw had constant foot and ankle issues and was a RB. Do I need to go on?
We already knew Bradshaw was injury prone, did you follow the team and his injuries?
I don't remember Bradshaw injuries but I don't think Cruz was like this guy who was on the field all the time either.
Ahmad Bradshaw in his highest earning year was 3 mil . Cruz had a 40 million dollar 5 year deal and was pretty much not the same player after signing it. Do you always have to such a smug , condescending douche .
I believe John when he says that Chris/Tim have no direct power/authority to make personnel decisions. I added a key word to that sentence "direct".
Chris and Tim have plenty of indirect influence. They write evaluations that are used as inputs to the draft board. People go to them for "advice" and "opinions" about players. They participate in the draft. Chris participate in interviews. These are things that they do that have been stated outright. I do not believe they are shadow GMs. I do not believe that they pound the table for "their" guy. There is a distinction here, their influence is more subtle, indirect, and potentially insidious than that.
Now put yourself in the position of being a scout and you know Chris and Tim feel a certain way about a player. Maybe you are not so sure, but hey, on paper these guys are your boss, AND they are owners. Will you consider kissing a little ass and agreeing with them when your opinion is on the margin?
How about being the GM. And you know that Chris and Tim filed a bunch of reports about some players. And they have been talking them up. Maybe your opinion is on the margin, or maybe you didn't have time to do a thorough evaluation of the player. And of course Chris and Tim are owners so, yeah they kinda work for you, but they are also kinda your boss. I mean they were in the interview room... It's a good bet they are in the room when the firings are being discussed. So do you decide to kiss a little ass and move the benefit of the doubt towards these guys who may decide your fate.
In both cases, if you are the contrarian, and are wrong, you are going to have a load of dog shit on your shoe.
This kind of influence is indirect and not very obvious. John speaks the truth, but be careful. Truths can deceive. When the GM start adjusting their opinions to make meet the opinions of those who decide his fate, where does it stop. Once on that slippery slope, how far is the slide. Ultimately there is no way to really measure how much influence really exists. Maybe its a little, maybe its a ton. That is what makes this dangerous, and insidious. The fact that John says that they are "well respected" and go to individuals should send up huge red flags that the situation is at the very least leaning into dangerous territory.
All that said. I have stayed out of this discussion because I have no idea what is really going on in people's minds in that building. I don't think there really is a way of ever figuring that out in this situation. I don't think John knows, nor do Chris and Tim. Nobody can accurately measure it.
The mere fact that it keeps coming up as an issue suggests that Eric is correct. Just remove the titles.
Or are you suggesting remove him altogether from the building in every capacity?
Or are you suggesting remove him altogether from the building in every capacity?
Except titles have a different psychological effect on people. Innately we all know this.
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that you mentioned above in the same indirect manner as an owner. So what does that really achieve?
Or are you suggesting remove him altogether from the building in every capacity?
Except titles have a different psychological effect on people. Innately we all know this.
McL - with all due respect, the only ones that may be having any psychological effect with Chris' title are the fans/media.
Everybody in Jints Central knows he is an owner whether he has no title, is SVP of Player Personnel or the Audio/Visual Manager...
Why is there resistance in the building to removing the titles.
Titles mean something.
"Oh he just watches some film and suggests a few plays to the coach."
Sr VP of Player Personnel is a real job. People who have that job are supposed to add value to the organization. They have responsibilities- the hire staff, they coordinate scouting, they lay out the processes for evaluation.
If the best case scenario is that Mara doesn't do that much...that's still terrible. If he doesn't do it, then who does all the things that he's supposed to do??
"Well...the CFO is part of the family, so he doesn't really do anything. He just looks at some numbers and makes suggestions. Really well respected though. "
"Ah..ceremonial title? Ok let's talk to his deputy, the one who's really in charge."
"Well...he's actually part of the family too. He also doesn't really do anything. He's really really well respected though"
"OK, we need to talk to someone from finance. Who is in charge?"
"Well...we kind of just do things together. Like someone has an idea and then we talk about it some. There no real way to say that someone is "in charge" so to speak... Did I mention that a lot of our team is really well respected?"
Why is there resistance in the building to removing the titles.
Titles mean something.
My guess is it means something to Chris...
"Oh he just watches some film and suggests a few plays to the coach."
Sr VP of Player Personnel is a real job. People who have that job are supposed to add value to the organization. They have responsibilities- the hire staff, they coordinate scouting, they lay out the processes for evaluation.
If the best case scenario is that Mara doesn't do that much...that's still terrible. If he doesn't do it, then who does all the things that he's supposed to do??
I think you are missing the point. Those responsibilities in the Giants system are covered by the GM's office...
I am bit obsessed. Chris is all I think about these days...
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didn't do anything?
"Oh he just watches some film and suggests a few plays to the coach."
Sr VP of Player Personnel is a real job. People who have that job are supposed to add value to the organization. They have responsibilities- the hire staff, they coordinate scouting, they lay out the processes for evaluation.
If the best case scenario is that Mara doesn't do that much...that's still terrible. If he doesn't do it, then who does all the things that he's supposed to do??
I think you are missing the point. Those responsibilities in the Giants system are covered by the GM's office...
Sure. Because in "the Giants system" a key executive role is filled by an empty suit. Wouldn't it be better to use "every other team's system" and fil an important executive role with a competent executive?
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In comment 15554114 Jerry in_DC said:
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didn't do anything?
"Oh he just watches some film and suggests a few plays to the coach."
Sr VP of Player Personnel is a real job. People who have that job are supposed to add value to the organization. They have responsibilities- the hire staff, they coordinate scouting, they lay out the processes for evaluation.
If the best case scenario is that Mara doesn't do that much...that's still terrible. If he doesn't do it, then who does all the things that he's supposed to do??
I think you are missing the point. Those responsibilities in the Giants system are covered by the GM's office...
Sure. Because in "the Giants system" a key executive role is filled by an empty suit. Wouldn't it be better to use "every other team's system" and fil an important executive role with a competent executive?
Huh? If those job responsibilities are someone else’s in the NYG system what does it matter?
This isn't a knee jerk reaction, this is 10 years of suckage with only one constant. Owners, glad they admitted it, they are the hot seat until it is fixed, if we are sitting with double digit losses after next season, this is going to look like a fucking picnic.
No more excuses, plenty of other things to spend my time and money on. we were a clown show this year, the other teams and their fans are mocking us openly.