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“Nobody’s been talking about the root of the problem. Everybody’s just continued to say, ‘It’s bad drafting. Bad coaching. It’s injuries. It’s this. It’s that.’ This, for me, goes all the way back to the end of the 2015 season, where they only fired Tom Coughlin and they didn’t fire Jerry Reese with him. Since that point, nothing has been in alignment with one another. Because then after you fire coach Coughlin, you bring in Ben McAdoo. Ben McAdoo and Jerry Reese are together. That doesn’t work out. Now you go to Pat Shurmur and Dave Gettleman. Pat Shurmur doesn’t work out. But then you keep Dave Gettleman again. Then you bring in another head coach. That does not work in the NFL. The head coach and the GM have to be on the same page, they have to come in together, or they have to have that community-building and that accountability to one another that when the ship goes down, I’m not going to be pointing at you because I have another year left on my contract. Or you’re not going to be pointing at me as the coach, saying ‘Well, I don’t have enough players.’ “When it comes to Daniel Jones, I don’t know why Giants fans are going crazy because just by bringing him back doesn’t mean he has to be your starting quarterback. You have all the leverage in the world in this operation. We know with those top draft picks, the Giants need to utilize those on the offensive line and on the defensive side of the ball as well. ... If I was the Giants general manager, I would bring in a veteran quarterback to compete for that job. That would not only help develop Daniel Jones but would bring out the best in Daniel Jones and say to Daniel Jones, ‘The opportunity to start is right in front of you, but you’re going to have to earn it.’” |
Thanks buddy. Took my usual in-season Sabbatical and back for GM/HC discussion, FA and to learn about potential draftees
And thanks for a great post.
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Welcome back! You've been sorely missed.
Thanks buddy. Took my usual in-season Sabbatical and back for GM/HC discussion, FA and to learn about potential draftees
Welcome back! Sadly, the more energy and excitement has been the offseason. Hopefully this is the turnaround offseason for us back up.
This is a welcome sight as always.
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Welcome back! You've been sorely missed.
Thanks buddy. Took my usual in-season Sabbatical and back for GM/HC discussion, FA and to learn about potential draftees
Welcome back! Sadly, the more energy and excitement has been the offseason. Hopefully this is the turnaround offseason for us back up.
They were busy being ex players. What exactly did you want them to do?
Really??? Ring of Honor???
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Ex players all these years while this stuff was happening?
They were busy being ex players. What exactly did you want them to do?
Wasn't Diehl doing tv/radio for the Giants previously? Pretty sure he made comments about this previously.
Put me in the corner for a GM that will hire Bill O'Biren and trade for vet QB named, Watson
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Ex players all these years while this stuff was happening?
They were busy being ex players. What exactly did you want them to do?
Diehl and Tynes have been doing media for awhile now. They didn’t just start yesterday.
That scenario ends up with Jones leaving the Giants for nothing after 2022.
From the title of the OP it sounded like Diehl was saying that there is still going to be a problem...
I like it!
Welcome back!
They do face a big decision on picking up 2023, which Diehl doesn't mention.
Bringing in a vet QB to compete sounds fine, in theory, but a vet who can compete and win in the NFL is in demand and Giants are cap constrained.
Diehl also doesn't mention Jones' health issue. He has suffered four injuries while running the ball,the most recent being the most serious. That's a factor not easy to evaluate in a QB competition.
Hi Bruce, welcome back.
That scenario ends up with Jones leaving the Giants for nothing after 2022.
we could get a comp pick
either way, I think jones is more valuable as a lottery ticket or back up than what we could get in return. (unless some team wants to throw a couple 2s at us)
ironically when you google 'marc ross promotion' one of the first results is the short BBI thread linked below. A poster named NYDCBlue was prescient.
NYDCBlue : 5/31/2013 10:13 pm : link
I've said several times in the past that I am not yet sold on Ross.
Actually, I wanted to reserve judgement on him until he had been around long enough to evaluate his work. Interestingly in the intervening years I have not grown any closer to a conclusion on Ross. I guess if push came to shove I would label him excruciatingly average. A JAG.
Has anyone else noticed the perceptible, even if not precipitous drop in the quality of our drafts since Ross has been running them?
Before anyone admonishes me, I know the drafts since Ross has been here haven't exactly been considered chock full of talent, but at some point all I am really concerned with is results....
The 2012 draft Ross was essentially promoted off was perhaps the worst in team history. David Wilson, Rueben Randle, Jayron Hosely, the JPP of TEs Adrien Robinson, Brandon Mosely, Matt McCants, Markus Kuhn. What a heap. The 2011 draft before that wasn't much better. Prince, Marvin Austin, Jernigan, James Brewer, Greg jones, Sash, Jaquian Williams, Da'rel Scott.
In the 3 straight drafts from 2011-2013 not a single player made it to a 2nd contract with the NYG. And only OBJ/Shep got 2nd contracts from the 2014-2017 drafts.
So Diehl is right that they shouldn't have kept Reese (and Ross) in 2015, but the better answer would have been to put Marc Ross on TV where he belonged far earlier than that.
Marc Ross Promoted to Vice President of Player Evaluation - ( New Window )
That scenario ends up with Jones leaving the Giants for nothing after 2022.
And if Daniel Jones is "Blaine Gabbert" as you suggest, they're not getting better than a 5th or 6th rounder for him anyway. At that point he holds more value to them as a 1 year placeholder for them in a competition with some other veteran or rookie.
I'm open-minded about this. If the new regime likes Corral or Pickett. Go do it. If they would rather use this opportunity of extra picks to build out more of the roster and let Jones and say, a guy like Trubisky fight it out for a year, that's fine too.
The point is Jones is no longer a long term consideration here barring some kind of light bulb going on in year 4.
I have a hunch Jones is going to have issues getting back on a football field anywhere due to his neck.
Where the GM and HC come in together are are both outside the organization?
Shurmur and Gettleman came together, but Dave was a Giants homer. I think before that it was Young/Perkins.
Young:Perkins/Parcells/Handley/Reeves/Fassel
Acorsi: Coughlin
Reese: Coughlin / McAdoo
Gettleman: Shurmur/Judge (wooooof)
?? : ??
In December of 2017 the Giants hired Dave Gettleman, and he and ownership subsequently hired Pat Shurmur. Perfect unison.
The principals were in lock step and they uniformly and expressly said the plan was to build up around Eli Manning.
They then spent at the top of the market at left tackle, used a top 35 pick on right guard, and signed a starting left guard to decent money.
I don’t blame Diehl for skipping this fact, as it crashed and burned around his good friend and long time team mate.
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It's very possible the Giants do exactly what Diehl suggests.
That scenario ends up with Jones leaving the Giants for nothing after 2022.
we could get a comp pick
either way, I think jones is more valuable as a lottery ticket or back up than what we could get in return. (unless some team wants to throw a couple 2s at us)
I doubt a new GM and coach feel that way, particularly if we draft a QB.
He also wouldn't bring back a comp pick - just impact the formula, potentially.
I would trade him for a bag of footballs, but the reality of the market is we could probably get about a fourth rounder for him. That's not nothing. We can be nearly certain he doesn't get another contract here, so what's the point?
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In comment 15550865 Go Terps said:
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It's very possible the Giants do exactly what Diehl suggests.
That scenario ends up with Jones leaving the Giants for nothing after 2022.
we could get a comp pick
either way, I think jones is more valuable as a lottery ticket or back up than what we could get in return. (unless some team wants to throw a couple 2s at us)
I doubt a new GM and coach feel that way, particularly if we draft a QB.
He also wouldn't bring back a comp pick - just impact the formula, potentially.
I would trade him for a bag of footballs, but the reality of the market is we could probably get about a fourth rounder for him. That's not nothing. We can be nearly certain he doesn't get another contract here, so what's the point?
well we will find out in 3-6 months exactly how the new coach/gm feel.
In my view he is worth more than a 4th either as the backup or reclamation project.
Either draft a QB or bring in a capable vet and let them compete, that would be my preferred plan of action.
Speculation for sure but, something is off there.
I agree with Diehl. It's funny seeing people blast Jones, Judge or Dave being problems and yada yada. Giants have been bad since 2012. Maybe further than that, but Eli balling out caused the problems to be addressed later. Not his fault. The management continually ignored fixing the line from then on, and has been band aided since. Late to the party addressing a serious need, and that was in 2011.
At the minimum Getts/Shurm was in that both came in fresh and Getts picked Shurm, no?
And it can’t be the case that GMs should always get fired with coaches, should it? Coaches generally get moved more often around the league.(Coaches may have to go when GMs go, though, for the alignment.)
Doesn’t the above suggest it was the GM choice and his picks for coach that was the root of the issue, since we did have alignment most times? What am I missing or did I miss the point he’s making?
Sign both, tell them they're fighting for the starting job. Trade Jones, get a pick. We've improved the QB depth chart, saved a little cap space, and gotten a pick.
Bringing Jones back only makes sense of you're considering keeping him beyond 2022, and no incoming GM is going to want to do that unless we rehire Gettleman.
Exactly. Diehl brushes over that fact, I suspect because that synchronization he claims is the answer, actually happened.
Like I posted above, I suspect he skips over that, because those two built their plan around Eli Manning. And of course that was really stupid.
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It's very possible the Giants do exactly what Diehl suggests.
That scenario ends up with Jones leaving the Giants for nothing after 2022.
And if Daniel Jones is "Blaine Gabbert" as you suggest, they're not getting better than a 5th or 6th rounder for him anyway. At that point he holds more value to them as a 1 year placeholder for them in a competition with some other veteran or rookie.
I'm open-minded about this. If the new regime likes Corral or Pickett. Go do it. If they would rather use this opportunity of extra picks to build out more of the roster and let Jones and say, a guy like Trubisky fight it out for a year, that's fine too.
The point is Jones is no longer a long term consideration here barring some kind of light bulb going on in year 4.
I have a hunch Jones is going to have issues getting back on a football field anywhere due to his neck.
the expected return compensation is simply not true. look what the eagles got for wentz and what the jets got for darnold. jones should fetch something similar
This alignment crap is horse puckies - bad decisions are bad decisions - it has nothing to do with alignment
This alignment crap is horse puckies - bad decisions are bad decisions - it has nothing to do with alignment
The earth stopped spinning their for a moment, because I think we agree!
Hope all is well!
Even with less-than-ideal circumstances, where are the special plays/skills to give anyone hope that this guy is the solution? In an honest moment, we all know that they are limited. And not enough to continue to roll him out there, cross our fingers, and hope he finally shows something.
Go watch Josh Allen his first two years in Buffalo. He struggled to hit the broad side of a barn. But for crissakes, the talent just jumped off the screen - the laser throws, the elusiveness, the running ability, etc.
Here's hoping a new GM/HC duo don't take too long to make this assessment so we can end this torture.
Each new coach will have his system. Yes, it should adjust to personnel, but overall they’re hired to implement their vision. But the players they inherit may not be a fit. (Pioli talked about BB going to Cleveland where Hugh Douglas tried, but was just not a 2-gap DE.) And roster turnover takes a few years. By changing every two years you end up with both a coach never getting the guys in place, and a mosh mash of guys for different systems.
They need a GM they believe in. Hire a coach you believe in. Give him the actual time to Fing get it together. We have to be ok with progress, not playoffs next year. It’s not going to get instantly better, and if it seems to it may be a flash and revert a bit. But let the guy play it out to get his system and guys in place because each cycle change restarts that clock.
Sign both, tell them they're fighting for the starting job. Trade Jones, get a pick. We've improved the QB depth chart, saved a little cap space, and gotten a pick.
Bringing Jones back only makes sense of you're considering keeping him beyond 2022, and no incoming GM is going to want to do that unless we rehire Gettleman.
trading Jones will only save 4 mil. The other 4 is signing bonus we that would be accelerated in a trade. But I doubt that changes your calculus much.
Have to admit, you do make a decent point here.
Accorsi didn't want Fassel in 1997. It was George Young's last year before retiring and he hired Fassel over Accorsi's choice, Nick Saban (I'm 90% sure it was Saban, but I could be mixing him up with someone else). It was seven years before Fassel finally gave Accorsi enough justification to fire him (most of which was bullshit and hypocritical on Accorsi's part), but then Accorsi was saddled with Coughlin. I can't say for certain that Accorsi wasn't particularly fond of Coughlin, but reading between the lines, that was my impression. As for Fassel, Accorsi came right out and said he wasn't his preferred choice.
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It's very possible the Giants do exactly what Diehl suggests.
That scenario ends up with Jones leaving the Giants for nothing after 2022.
we could get a comp pick
either way, I think jones is more valuable as a lottery ticket or back up than what we could get in return. (unless some team wants to throw a couple 2s at us)
That's not how comp picks work.
If for some reason things click for him, great.
I do think he still has some upside but probably not enough to be a long term solution
He competes hard, has athletic ability and can make some nice throws
Decision making / progressions still iffy though
Even though he doesn’t really elevate team, playing with garbage half the time never helped his cause
This is a welcome sight as always.
What Chris said!
Find better quality evaluators of talent and the team will improve...
1) Good talent 2) Good architecture 3) Good coaching
Coaching is the most straightforward.
Architecture has been a big problem here for a while. Allocation, timing, vision etc. This has to be the primary focus of the GM.
Talent is where I’m worried. The coach and the GM have to be able to trust the recommendations from the pro and college evaluators.
If you remember back in 2002, the Giants had a good OL coach in Jim McNally. McNalley took a group of FA OL, like Seubert, Bober, etc and molded them into a strong line to get a playoff push. The Giants basically felt he could turn any dogcrap into a player and that led us to the Ian Allens and Jeff Roehl's as it fell apart in 2003. Sometimes they over estimate the ability of someone to lift a group, whether it's a player or coach.
What set in motion the mess to come was the Giants inability to see the core of the team Accorsi built that won in 2007 and squeezed out 2011, was done by 2012. They got blown out by Atlanta and Baltimore in back to back games. That should have been the signal to rebuild and try to win again in a year or so with Eli at the tail end of his prime.
But MetLife hosted the Super Bowl in 2013. No one hosted the Super Bowl and played in it before. The Giants wanted that. Reese put up that dumb Super Bowl count down clock. They re-upped their vets on their last legs and crashed at 0-6. That team should have been 4-12, but they had a stretch of playing 3rd string QBs and finished 7-9. More false hope going into 2014. That team went from 3-2 to 3-9. But, Odell burst on to the scene. More false hope, they rightly decided to focus on OL, but the players didn't play up to where they should (Flowers, Richburg, Pugh). That was realistically a 4-12 team that beat bad teams late and finished 6-10.
That leads into the period that Diehl is talking about in sweeping out both Coughlin and Reese. And he's right. Once that happens, it sets up these 2 year bursts of decisions, placing blame on front office or coaches. And the x-factor of the org trying to build around Eli when he was gassed at the end (which is why Saquon was taken at #2). If nothing else, the twitter explosion 2 weeks ago unearthed all the inside politics and finger pointing that we all suspected.
Judge's only way to survive was for 2021 to be a winning/competitive season. They spent that cap money to give him the tools to win. The plan was to transition to Abrams and Pettit. Gettleman was in the background all year, remember how Abrams and Pettit handled the pre-draft pressers? That's why Judge wanted Abrams as GM. That was his only lifeline to stay as head coach. No GM on the outside was going to come in here with him as coach.
In the long run, the cratering of the end of this season, in my mind, is best thing to happen to this organization since 2011. The Young era ended in 1997. The Accorsi era ended in 2006. The Reese era really ended in 2012. After that was stop and go mess with generally good intentions but bad execution and eventually they could no longer function. To paraphrase the term from Vietnam, you needed to destroy the village to save it. Get the right person in here and we can finally start a new era after 10 years of trash.
2. You can't write a recap of the orgs downfall without mentioning Marc Ross. The '04-'10 Coughlin/Reese/EA group morphed into the '11-'17 disasters that wasted Eli's back half career under Marc Ross's leadership ascent. No tea leaves needed to know whose voice got louder in those years - the title bumps, press conferences, and 3 piece suits made it clear.
In the history of what went wrong this decade there are others who may bear more blame indirectly since they were in position to recognize the problem and didn't, but nobody is more directly responsible.
The slate was clean and those two just made terrible choices.
The cardinal sin of the last decade was the idiotic hope that Eli Manning would return to form and solve all problems.
Yup. This is why to me the moment that will always symbolize this era is the Barkley pick. Even Darnold would have been a better pick, as if we had done that we might be sitting here with Herbert today.
The Barkley pick, in that moment, was one of my worst moments as a Giant fan. It was such a terrible sign.
The slate was clean and those two just made terrible choices.
The cardinal sin of the last decade was the idiotic hope that Eli Manning would return to form and solve all problems.
was it really a shared vision?
it was two guys who accepted the pre-condition of hire -- Eli Manning is definitely the Starting QB.
Make me your best dish, anything you like. You have a $30 budget, and by the way $15 of it has already been spent on a steak that I cooked last week. Also that steak is in the fridge and it has to be the only protein in the meal.
I guess I could say that you and your sous chef have a shared vision as long as you follow my rules.
ELI REVENGE TOUR 2018!!!!
The slate was clean and those two just made terrible choices.
The cardinal sin of the last decade was the idiotic hope that Eli Manning would return to form and solve all problems.
If they weren't the cardinal sin were they the original sin?
The slate was clean and those two just made terrible choices.
The cardinal sin of the last decade was the idiotic hope that Eli Manning would return to form and solve all problems.
Shumur was the "adult". He was the guy before the guy, IMO. They were trying to re-stabilize around Eli and get a professional back at HC. Again, a half measure. Do what you could to try to coax the last bit out of Eli and see if they could find the next QB.
The question I still have to this day, if you remember back in 2019, Gettleman met with Eli after the season. Gettleman said "Eli took me to the low post and won". What did they talk about? Did Eli tell them that this was going to be his last season in 2019? Did Eli say that he wanted better players around him or he wasn't coming back? Whatever it was, the Giants got very interested in getting the next QB in here. We know they wanted Herbert. But Herbert stayed. But they kept going and fell "Full bloom in love" with Jones. We don't need to go through all of that after. We all know the story. But it just fit right back within the Giants mode of half measures, not thought out. They were reactive and reached for a QB. The guy they really wanted happened to be there the next year. Missed opportunity.
100% correct. Reese was a solid GM in the draft until Marc Ross came aboard. Ross had a poor drafting record in Buffalo but the Giants hired him anyway which was the main reason for Reese's downfall.
Marc Ross was not only a very bad talent evaluator but he also refused to take any of the blame for the sorry state of the franchise. There were also rumors that Ross was not a hard worker who didn't put in the necessary hours.
I remember Ross appearance on the NFL network right before the start of Gettleman's first season. Ross was criticizing Gettleman for the lack of talent on the roster. This still blows my mind that this guy lacks the basic awareness that he was one of the architects of this teams roster. Mike Florio from NBC ripped Ross for his lack of accountability while trying to pin the blame on the new FO.
In the past I wondered if Ross would still be here had he hired a competent director of college scouting instead of Marc Ross.
Sign both, tell them they're fighting for the starting job. Trade Jones, get a pick. We've improved the QB depth chart, saved a little cap space, and gotten a pick.
Bringing Jones back only makes sense of you're considering keeping him beyond 2022, and no incoming GM is going to want to do that unless we rehire Gettleman.
That's a fine idea but I doubt Trubisky signs for that little again. He clearly took less money to sign with the Bills because it gave him a chance to go to the SB.
Even if the Giants keep Jones I hope that they try to sign either of those two. If the Giants did draft Malik Willis I would still be in support of signing either of those two or Andy Dalton to compete with Jones for the starting job. The loser would be the primary backup allowing Willis to sit for his entire rookie season.
The Giants should have cleaned house — coaching and management — after the 2015 season. Manning was still young enough and good enough to build around. I buy that. I agree with Diehl that keeping Reese was sloppy and was a mishmash approach.
But Diehl conveniently glosses over the Giants did clean sweep after 2017. New GM, new coach, big roster turnover, big infusion of dollars.
That should have been the new dawn — instead they dragged out the Gettleman corpse and the Manning corpse and re-enacted Weekend at Bernie’s.
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The cardinal sin of the last decade was the idiotic hope that Eli Manning would return to form and solve all problems.
Yup. This is why to me the moment that will always symbolize this era is the Barkley pick. Even Darnold would have been a better pick, as if we had done that we might be sitting here with Herbert today.
The Barkley pick, in that moment, was one of my worst moments as a Giant fan. It was such a terrible sign.
GT , I am on the same page with you here.
The reason that the Barkley pick was the worst pick in my time as a fan (a little more than 50 years), was that it signified a front office that didn't know what they were doing. It was the foreshadowing of the horrible 4 years to come. I felt it in my bones as soon as it happened. It was such a bad decision, that you just knew it would be followed with more bad decision making. That is why it was the worst. It has nothing to do with the player himself (who by the way was never a player I thought of very highly even before that draft).
he is so right and that SUCKED as a fan to watch them bungle through all of those mistakes.
I hope every Mara shill on this board reads Matt's post.
In retrospect are those drafts really horrid?
- 2014 produced 3 multi-year starters in Beckham, Richburg, and Kennard
- 2015 produced 2 multi-year starters in Flowers and Collins, and a journeyman in Heart
- 2016 produced 2 multi-year starters in Goodson and Shepard, and a journeyman in Apple
I often wonder if the Giants had better coaching during that time if those drafts would have looked better.
The Giants should have cleaned house — coaching and management — after the 2015 season. Manning was still young enough and good enough to build around. I buy that. I agree with Diehl that keeping Reese was sloppy and was a mishmash approach.
But Diehl conveniently glosses over the Giants did clean sweep after 2017. New GM, new coach, big roster turnover, big infusion of dollars.
That should have been the new dawn — instead they dragged out the Gettleman corpse and the Manning corpse and re-enacted Weekend at Bernie’s.
the point i'm trying to make is that many are incorrectly labeling 2015 or 2017 or 2018 or 2020 the earthquake when they were aftershocks.
the earthquake was the terrible drafting 2011+ on the backside of Eli's career, best embodied by the OL falling apart - which I personally attribute to Jerry Reese's empowerment of his hand picked protege Marc Ross.
Eli had his best year in 2012 but crappy rosters triggered the team's downward trend in 13, 14, 15 - leading to coaching change #1. Where Diehl is right is that not only was that a chance to start fresh but also a chance to contain fall out - which did not get contained so damage continued.
McAdoo, the 2016 FA splurge, and the Apple/Engram drafts were fallout directly attributable to keeping Reese/Ross.
So while you're right that there was a full reset for coaching change #3 in 2018 by that point the situation was more contaminated than chernobyl. And with Eli at the end it was probably not the most appealing place for newcomers to walk into having to be the ones that put down old yeller. I give the Kevin Colbert a lot of credit because he's probably stepping down at least in part due to the fact that it's a logical transition point for someone new to get the chance to pick their guy.